April 1st already. May God continue to richly bless each one of you with good health, long life, and may you come to a knowledge of Him whom to know is life eternal (see John 17:3).
For those atheists who have been quoting Matthew 5:21-23, please know that I would never call a Christian "brother" a fool (see the context). I do, however, side with God Himself when He calls the atheist a "fool" (see Psalm 14:1 and Romans 1:22). I have learned, through years of experience in dealing with drug addicts, that the way to reach them is not to argue with them about what they are doing, but to show them how stupid they are. They are not abusing drugs; they are using drugs to abuse themselves. The same applies with the stupidity of denying a Creator, with creation staring at you in the face. The atheist will only harm himself.
Many Christians think that it's a waste of time to even try and reason with you. But the consequences of what you are doing are so fearful and our love for you is so great, that we will keep pleading with you in the hope that you come to your senses. Every now and then we get emails from atheists who have come to know the Lord. That is our reward. Jesus said that when even one sinner repents, it makes Heaven rejoice.
Monday, March 31, 2008
Happy National Atheist's Day
133 comments:
A gift for those who celebrate this non-holy day.
How to be an Atheist:
1) Refute everything in the Bible because men wrote it.
2) Believe and quote other writings of men to prove that the Bible is wrong.
3) Completely ignore the inconsistency between steps 1 & 2.
4) Call yourself a “freethinker” and “open minded” but don’t practice such virtues when it comes to Christianity.
5) Try to laugh out loud every time a Christian makes a statement about what they believe even if you don’t think it’s really that funny. This helps avoid a “serious” conversation.
6) Always bring up Zeus, Allah, and Santa Claus to prove that if you must believe in one God then you have to believe in all of them otherwise it’s just not fair.
7) When referring to the Bible use the word “myth” as often as possible and call believers whatever names you want because the goal is to frustrate the Christian so that his sinful nature comes out and he gets angry and then you can call him a hypocrite.
8) Set your own moral standards very very very low so that you’ll never look like a hypocrite yourself. The lower the better.
9) Never answer a question directly but quickly change the subject to make a completely different point. If you’re asked why you keep changing the subject just repeat this step as necessary.
10) Be as argumentative, loud, sarcastic and verbal as possible – there is no need to make sense or use logic in your arguments – just keep arguing.
11) Use words like “strawman,” “ad hominem,” “fallacy,” “red herring” and non sequiturs” against every argument whether you understand those terms or not.
12) Claim that atheism is rooted in “common sense” even though less than 10% of the human population claim to be atheists.
13) Reject all notions of faith even though you must put your faith in pilots, cars, food, doctors, evolution, and the next chair that you sit in.
14) Always ask for evidence for God but never accept anything presented to you. At the end of a discussion remind them that all you needed was some evidence for God.
15) Quote only the Bible verses that make God look mean and unfair.
16) Talk about being a good person remembering that you are allowed to define good however you would like because there is no objective moral standard.
17) Say that you have read the Bible and that you understand what it teaches whether this is true or not.
18) Only pick on Christians – you don’t want to get killed in a Jihad. However, be sure to say that there is no difference between Radical Muslims and Fundamentalist Christians.
19) Always use the crusades to make the point above.
20) Remember that you are looking for faults in other worldviews not trying to defend your own – do not try to prove atheism! Remember, it’s much easier to destroy than build up.
21) Make the claim that you only have one life and don’t want to waste it on religion.
22) If your conscience begins to bother you because of moral guilt you can numb it with drugs, alcohol, sex, or pride. You can give up the first three but never give up your pride.
23) Everyday feel free to thank God that you’re an atheist – just in case.
Ephphatha
Thanks, Ray. Sincerely. But I would rather have just that one source for your evolution book. Just one. Call it an appetizer.
If it makes Ray feel better to call me a fool, so be it. Ray, that must mean you think you are super-smart...I thought pride was a sin. Christians, always humble.
Hey, there's a FSM statue at a courthouse in Tennessee now....can we have our 10 commandments back?
Google "Flying Spaghetti Monster" and Tennessee Courthouse for a link (since no links here...)
Denigrating those who don't agree with you is shameless. I am trying to read your blog with an open mind but I have not seen any dialog. The atheists that reply to your blog may be strident, but their abrasiveness does not cancel out the validity of their questions/claims/
I hadn't heard of National Atheist's Day, so I looked it up. It seems it's a theist joke based on April Fool's Day and this quote from the Bible;
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good" (Psalm 14:1).
I assume that anyone who celebrates 'National Atheist Day' must agree with the above. Do you really think this, Ray?
I'm anxious to see our atheist friends, borrow from the Christian worldview to raise a moral argument by commenting to your post.
Ray obviously has his fingers crossed for a Pigasus Award... We're pulling for you Ray, let's hope you super-natural claims are recognised this year...
You go Ray. I wanted to post something similar on another blog (full of atheists) but didn't think it right, even though April Fool's day is an appropriate National Day for atheists (Psalm 14:1) etc.
Anyway, for the purpose of not offending and keeping open dialogue - I was restrained.
I have just listened to you review of "Expelled" on the radio - something troubles me... It sounds to me that you didn't actually understand what was being said in the film. Do you understand? I mean, you do understand what was being discussed in the movie, don't you?
What worries me is that with your apparent lack of understanding and then Friel's rant against the study, investigation and analysis of knowledge, existence and morality - is that a show entitled "The Way Of The Master" does in fact master nothing and expressly invites its audience to abandon intellectual pursuit.
Gee Ray, stuff like that and you wonder why you don't get more respect from your "hecklers" in your preaching?
You're the heckler, not them.
To me, the real fools are those who believe your "holy book", take it's advice and die for it. Like people who actually handle snakes and drink poison, and go to, and donate money to faith-healers etc. Even when they've been exposed, as Benny Hinn was.
Amazing how you demand that your views be respected, but as to how you treat others?
Hypocrite.
Amen!!!
I'll gladly take 1 day a year when you call me a fool when you demonstrate your foolishness the other 364.
Hey, Ray! Happy Atheist's Day to you, sir! I watched "Wretched" last night on Familynet. Give Todd a thumbs up on it for me, would you?
I do have something rather compelling that I would like to share with you guys and gals.
This is rather difficult for me to admit this, but I think there has been some sort of "spiritual" activity going on in my house.
At first I thought I was having a dream, but now I know that I am getting a message from someone, who has identified himself as Lirpa Loof.
This is rather unnerving, and the spirit's style seems to mimick Fourkid's style in the way
I scoured the whole bible last evening and searched to try to find out who this Lirpa Loof could be.
I have a feeling that if I am ever going to be "called," This may be it.
Is there any of you who know who this Lirpa Loof could be? In this vision, he looks like he could be an american indian, or perhaps mideastern man.
This is a bit freightening, and I am very curious to find out if there is a bible character called Lirpa Loof. Obviously, I don't know if that spelling is correct.
Thanks for your help.
First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgivings be offered to God for all people; for kings and all others who are in authority, that we may live a quiet and peaceful life with all reverence toward God and with proper conduct. This is good and it pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to come to know the truth. (1 Timothy 2:1-4)
Let's keep praying for them.
As Jannes and Jambres were opposed to Moses, so also these people are opposed to the truth---people whose minds do not function and who are failures in the faith. But they will not get very far, because everyone will see how stupid they are. That is just what happened to Jannes and Jambres. (2 Timothy 3:8-9)
For if the gospel we preach is hidden, it is hidden only from those who are being lost. They do not believe, because their minds have been kept in the dark by the evil god of this world. He keeps them from seeing the light shining on them, the light that comes from the Good News about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
Didn't you hear, Ray? It was renamed "National Creationist Day". We'll be happy to send you the new memo.
You don't have to do anything special to celebrate. Just keep doing what you're doing. =)
I read the "verse for today", which is just usually random chapters or verses going through the Bible in a year.
It read: “The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.” (Psalm 14:1)
dale you mean April Fool? Lirpa Loof
I see where the Alabama legislature has voted to change the vaue of pi to the biblical value of 3.
The joke's on you, Ray:
"But whomsoever shall say 'Thou fool' shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22)
cognitive dissident
To Ray, and mostly regarding ex-atheist's post:
Your post is hurtful, and untrue. I am technically an atheist and I am/do none of those things. If you were, indeed, formerly an atheist, maybe YOU were like that. But maybe that's why you needed to turn to religion... you needed the boundaries that you didn't have the will power to make for yourself.
I am happy to live and let live. Whatever makes someone happy is what they should do (as long as it is legal, and doesn't hurt someone else of course). If you want God and the church in your life, if it makes you happy, then by all means... embrace it.
I have very high moral standards, and it's extremely hurtful for you to generalize about a certain group of people based on (most likely) one or two poor experiences. Everyone knows that the most vocal people of any group are usually not a good sample selection to base the rest of the population on. If I were to base my view of all Christians on YOU, then I would surely despise them for being cruel, brash, and judgemental.
Sincerely,
Ashley the Atheist
Hey, Ray, did you know that February 30th is National God Day? - August Berkshire, President, Minnesota Atheists
Ray,
I have woken as if from a deep sleep.
The angel Lirpa Loof has spoken to me and I am going to dedicate my life to sidewalk evangelism.
I have quit my job and sold off all my posessions.
I have enough money to get to Cali., just wonderin if I could stay at your place for a few weeks?
I don't eat much. I'm hoping you will be like the brother that I never had. Just think, Ray. You an me! Pestering pedestrians since 2008!
I am saved thanks to Lirpa Loof!
Ray Comfort thought he was funny when he wrote:
"I have learned, through years of experience in dealing with drug addicts, that the way to reach them is not to argue with them about what they are doing, but to show them how stupid they are. They are not abusing drugs; they are using drugs to abuse themselves. The same applies with the stupidity of denying a Creator, with creation staring at you in the face. The atheist will only harm himself."
Oh, the irony! My Experience is that the religious people who are trying to show me how stupid I am only succeed in making themselves look stupid, by using poor logic, torturing the English Language, and being so proud of their ignorance of science, history, and other subjects.
Mat Wooler wrote:
"I have just listened to you review of "Expelled" on the radio - something troubles me... It sounds to me that you didn't actually understand what was being said in the film. Do you understand? I mean, you do understand what was being discussed in the movie, don't you?"
But Matt, don't you know that Ray and most evangelicals live in a completely different reality that precludes the reality that we experience with our senses? You have to get them to first take off their stain-glass colored glasses, which blind them to the reality you see.
The Word of God doesn't just apply the term "fool" to those who will not acknowledge the existence of the One to whom they rely on for their every breath and heartbeat. There was also the young man in Proverbs who allowed himself to be seduced by a woman whose husband was away on a business trip. Jesus called the man a "fool" who lived only for the here and now, and did not prepare for the coming judgment and eternity. Even the apostle Paul admits that Christians are regarded as "fools" by most of the world, saying that we are "...fools for Christ's sake."
But we just keep going because we have the assurance that it pleases God through the "foolishness" of preaching the message of Christ to save those who believe. (even professed athiests. It can happen).
Ashley the Atheist does make some good points. Most non-theists I have met are content to just go through life not making waves and not wanting to be bothered. I think ex-atheist's comments are directed toward the more vocal athiests who we hear from and read the most.
Thank you Ashley.
Stranger
Atheists are drug addicts now? But they don't have to go once, twice, five times a week to the church to get their "fix."
Out of your great love, keep praying for me. I will keep thinking for you.
To Ashley the Atheist,
Thank you Ashley. I was praying for a reply like yours. Please do not allow my post or any others cause you to stop visiting this blog. The contribution of your opinions and thoughts are very much appreciated. [I’m being 100% genuine in this reply]
Sincerely,
Keith the ex-atheist
Ray,
I have the Way of the Master calendar but they didn't list today a National Atheist's Day. You should put that in it next year.
Dale said
“I scoured the whole bible last evening and searched to try to find out who this Lirpa Loof could be.”
I would just hope that you would search the scriptures period. That way you would not spout the things that you do unlearned. Remember when you quoted this verse, and then quietly refused to answer to your wrong assumption that it did not get fulfilled? “Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (KJV)” So maybe you want to let everyone know now how you said this was not fulfilled. You probably quote mind this from your favorite anti God web site…got to love those supposed Bible contradictions huh?
Nator said
“My second question would be this: Why doesn't God just go ahead and save everyone (He is God afterall). If He can't, then we are limiting His power.”
Now that would please you all wouldn’t it…you all ready act like he is a bully already. What force everyone to go to heaven…how absurd? The ones who will be in heaven will believe what he said…all of it…and love Him. You won’t have to go when you would rather be in hell parting with your friends. Except satan lied because you won’t see your friends, or have anything to party with…satan will suffer with ya. I have had coworkers tell me they were going to have beer and a lawn chair…but I have never seen anyone take anything with them…have you?
Np said
“Evolution is not simply a random process of chance. The environment comes into play through selection, and that is a nonrandom process.”
Evolution and Creation do not meet in the middle, God did not use random and nonrandom chance to make you. If you want to compromise you are free to do so, just remember we will all give an account on the last day. The Bible is God’s inerrant and infallible words, and He said unbelief is as the sin of witch craft.
Pvblivs said
“Sorry, but first you have to explain how your deity came to exist. After all, he cannot always have been there. We could never have gotten to today. (Just apply the same reasoning you did for the universe.) So, what was present at the beginning of your deity?”
What? Why? Who says? Others on here accuse us of the straw man arguments, and then you post this. If we could never have gotten here to today through God, then how did we get here through evolution then? The very definition of God is “Supreme Being”, not much is supreme if he is just like us. But if He is supreme his is nothing like us. We were created in his image, but that does not say I am God!
reynold said
“You do realize that Ray's the one being sarcastic here, right? Setting up a strawman of evolution as an argument against it.”
I have read plenty of sarcasm from both sides sir. I admit I do get sarcastic when someone tells me something is fact. And always tries to use talkoragins to prove it, but I can not use my Bible for proof against it. They cannot explain where life came from…but I cannot believe the Bible when it clearly tells me where it came from! And anything else I would try to use is unreliable…but talkoragins has the whole truth…it is your guys God.
”You do realize that Ray's the one who's always taking shots at athiests like with his "National Athiest Day" sticker, right?”
Please sir I have seen the shots that atheist take against religion even to the point of making Islam and Christianity no different. Even though a radical Islamic would kill you for stating that. I would like to let you know the Christians here are praying for you, not wanting to kill you.
”We're just giving him the respect that he gives us.”
Where are your serious questions? Instead we get you cannot believe in an invisible God because we cannot see him…even though He said He is invisible. You keep telling everyone they must believe in your science teacher, who cannot tell me where everything came from. And then even claim that that is not what evolution is supposed to do. Then you say we are all evolving and we cannot see it…but do not believe in a God you cannot see! What?
David w irish said
“See, for most creationists, what they think is truth, and anything that goes against it is obviously wrong, and so they start from that point.”
I read your whole post…and that is exactly what you did!
“For people like myself, we cast aside what we actually believe temporarily, and give all sides the benefit of the doubt.”
The following is just a snippet of how you cast aside your beliefs temporarily
“One was Hugh Ross, who is admittedly an OLD EARTH CREATIONIST -- he fully accepts that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and that the Universe is between 12 and 20 billion years old, because he is an astrophysicist.”
Wow you believe in an old earth, so what part of your belief did you put aside?
“Most books about creationism are written by ministers, missionaries, and apologists who have about as much actual knowledge and understanding in science as a 4th-grader, and their books are always agenda-driven rather than fact driven.”
Again I am so glad you put your beliefs aside…and did not fully tell me how stupid, and uneducated I am. Wow that whole statement was filled with your belief system…please just tell me what you put aside?
Again all you seem to be filled with is hatred, and bias. You tell me I cannot believe because God could not have done it the way the Bible says. But tell me to believe something that clearly as dale said does not even try to tell where life came from, just how it got to this point. I have proven that there has been lies in the textbooks, but atheists throw stones with televangelism. When did anyone on here stick up for televangelism? But that does not say everybody who is on TV trying to share the gospel is a charlatan. Ray consistently tries to get people to understand that some who say they are Christian are not in fact Christian. Ray is not deciding who is and who isn’t…the Bible does, and only God ultimately knows. Jesus said there are going to be a lot on the Day of Judgment who will find out that they were deceived. That goes for religious people, and non-religious people. The easter bunny, santa, etc do not exist…and us Christians are aware of that. You guys feel lead to constantly use that straw man when you tell me not to believe in God. But satan is real, and he would just love for you to continue to believe that we are the fanatics, and that you are the rational ones. Please just repent…God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked…and it is wicked to deny He exists. The straw man will be burnt up on the day of judgment, as well as all who believed in him.
Respectfully wdjd4jh
@ex-atheist:
"12) Claim that atheism is rooted in “common sense” even though less than 10% of the human population claim to be atheists."
I've always claimed that my atheism is rooted in my own personal genius. This is contrary to your Christianity being rooted in your own personal Genie. I'll capitalize Genie, just so I don't offend anyone.
I think, therefore I am [an atheist].
Thought in honor of the day I would QUOTE MINE!!!...
The Lord God Almighty, Creator of all said
"In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1 The Evidence Bible
"And God spoke ALL these words, saying, I AM the LORD your GOD, which have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU shall have NO other gods before ME.
YOU shall not make for yourself any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, VISITING THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHERS UPON THE CHILDREN TO THE THIRD AND FOURTH GENERATION OF THEM THAT HATE ME; and showing MERCY to thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
YOU shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that takes his name in vain.
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shall you labor, and do all your work:
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor the stranger that is within your gates:
FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY: THEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY, AND HALLOWED IT.
Honor your father and your mother: that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God gives you.
You shall not kill.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
You shall not covet your neighbors's house, you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is your neighbor's." (even his blog) Exodus 20:1-17 The Evidence Bible (emphasis mine)
"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise HIM; HE has put HIM to grief; when YOU SHALL MAKE HIS SOUL AN OFFERING FOR SIN, HE SHALL SEE HIS SEED, HE SHALL PROLONG HIS DAYS, AND THE PLEASURE OF THE LORD SHALL PROSPER IN HAND."
HE SHALL SEE THE TRAVAIL OF HIS SOUL, AND SHALL BE SATISFIED: BY HIS KNOWLEDGE SHALL MY RIGHTEOUS SERVANT JUSTIFY MANY; FOR HE SHALL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES." Isaiah 53:10,11 The Evidence Bible
"So all the GENERATIONS from Abraham to David are FOURTEEN GENERATIONS; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are FOURTEEN GENERATIONS; and from the carrying away into Babylon to CHRIST are FOURTEEN GENERATIONS." Matthew 1:17 The Evidence Bible
"WE are invited, brethren, most earnestly to go away from the old-fashioned belief of our forefathers because of the supposed discoveries of science. WHAT IS SCIENCE? The method by which man tries to hide his ignorance. It should not be so, but so it is. You are not to be dogmatical in theology, my brethren; it is wicked, but for SCIENTIFIC MEN, it is the correct thing. You are never to assert anything very strongly; but SCIENTISTS MAY BOLDLY ASSERT WHAT THEY CANNOT PROVE, and may demand a faith FAR more credulous than any we possess. Forsooth, you and I are to take our Bibles and shape and mould our belief according to the ever-shifting teachings of SO-CALLED SCIENTIFIC MEN. What folly is this! Why, the march of SCIENCE, falsely so called, through the world may be traced by exploded fallacies and abandoned theories. Former explorers once adored, are now ridiculed; the continual wreckings of FALSE HYPOTHESES is a matter of universal notoriety. You may tell where the supposed learned have encamped by the debris left behind of suppositions and theories as plentiful as broken bottles." C.H. Spurgeon
"I'm looking for a loophole." last words of W.C. Fields
"I am saved thanks to Lirpa Loof"...
Elad the A-1 Retsop Dlihc
Alandr67,
you said,
"I am saved thanks to Lirpa Loof"...
Elad the A-1 Retsop Dlihc
And you sir are a humorless blob.
Alanrd67,
You posted this verse:
"You shall not covet your neighbors's house, you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is your neighbor's."
One of my favorites. It shows you that God thinks of the man's wife as his property.
Ray-
I see you've updated your post to be even more judgemental and condescending. Shame on you. If there is a God, I feel safe in my belief that I am probably closer to him than you are, as I don't hold myself above anyone else, as you seem to do. If you felt any love for atheists, as you claim, then you wouldn't label us all as drug addicts who are too stupid or foolish to be left to our own devices. This isn't true. I do not do drugs, I am intelligent, and I am a very warm, loving, and moral person.
Your hypocrisy astounds and disappoints me.
"Drug Addict" and "Atheist" are NOT synonyms. Please stop using them as such.
I am forgiving, but unwavering and willful arrogance and condescension are things I find disgusting.
Ashley the Atheist
”You do realize that Ray's the one who's always taking shots at athiests like with his "National Athiest Day" sticker, right?”
Please sir I have seen the shots that atheist take against religion even to the point of making Islam and Christianity no different. Even though a radical Islamic would kill you for stating that. I would like to let you know the Christians here are praying for you, not wanting to kill you.
Check out Fundies Say the Darndest Things. Some members of your religion would like to see non-believers "go". Besides, a few hundred years ago, Christianity modern Islam weren't much different. Back then, you were put in jail or worse for daring to question dogma.
”We're just giving him the respect that he gives us.”
Where are your serious questions?
Generally ignored here...try reading a few actual atheist sites and find them.
Instead we get you cannot believe in an invisible God because we cannot see him…even though He said He is invisible.
And you have no problem with that?
You keep telling everyone they must believe in your science teacher, who cannot tell me where everything came from.
Science gives us the best track record we've got for how things work in this world...the scientific method works for better than prayer does for curing diseases, for instance. Just because science can't answer every single problem (no one has said it would!) is no reason to abandon thought and go to some empty though comforting religion instead.
And then even claim that that is not what evolution is supposed to do. Then you say we are all evolving and we cannot see it
Wrong. There have been predictions and tests based upon those predictions to see what would work out if evolution was true. Little things like the fossile and genetic records...I'd ask you to read up on it, but I doubt you will.
…but do not believe in a God you cannot see! What?
And a god we can't test either...when we try you people call it "tempting" him and that we're not supposed to! In the scientific method, we're supposed to test things, and discard what doesn't pan out.
Science is not a "god", it's just a methodology for finding out about the world around us.
Dale said
“I scoured the whole bible last evening and searched to try to find out who this Lirpa Loof could be.”
I would just hope that you would search the scriptures period. That way you would not spout the things that you do unlearned. Remember when you quoted this verse, and then quietly refused to answer to your wrong assumption that it did not get fulfilled? “Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (KJV)” So maybe you want to let everyone know now how you said this was not fulfilled. You probably quote mind this from your favorite anti God web site…got to love those supposed Bible contradictions huh?
Nator said
“My second question would be this: Why doesn't God just go ahead and save everyone (He is God afterall). If He can't, then we are limiting His power.”
Now that would please you all wouldn’t it…you all ready act like he is a bully already. What force everyone to go to heaven…how absurd? The ones who will be in heaven will believe what he said…all of it…and love Him. You won’t have to go when you would rather be in hell parting with your friends. Except satan lied because you won’t see your friends, or have anything to party with…satan will suffer with ya. I have had coworkers tell me they were going to have beer and a lawn chair…but I have never seen anyone take anything with them…have you?
Np said
“Evolution is not simply a random process of chance. The environment comes into play through selection, and that is a nonrandom process.”
Evolution and Creation do not meet in the middle, God did not use random and nonrandom chance to make you. If you want to compromise you are free to do so, just remember we will all give an account on the last day. The Bible is God’s inerrant and infallible words, and He said unbelief is as the sin of witch craft.
Pvblivs said
“Sorry, but first you have to explain how your deity came to exist. After all, he cannot always have been there. We could never have gotten to today. (Just apply the same reasoning you did for the universe.) So, what was present at the beginning of your deity?”
What? Why? Who says? Others on here accuse us of the straw man arguments, and then you post this. If we could never have gotten here to today through God, then how did we get here through evolution then? The very definition of God is “Supreme Being”, not much is supreme if he is just like us. But if He is supreme his is nothing like us. We were created in his image, but that does not say I am God!
reynold said
“You do realize that Ray's the one being sarcastic here, right? Setting up a strawman of evolution as an argument against it.”
I have read plenty of sarcasm from both sides sir. I admit I do get sarcastic when someone tells me something is fact. And always tries to use talkoragins to prove it, but I can not use my Bible for proof against it. They cannot explain where life came from…but I cannot believe the Bible when it clearly tells me where it came from! And anything else I would try to use is unreliable…but talkoragins has the whole truth…it is your guys God.
”You do realize that Ray's the one who's always taking shots at athiests like with his "National Athiest Day" sticker, right?”
Please sir I have seen the shots that atheist take against religion even to the point of making Islam and Christianity no different. Even though a radical Islamic would kill you for stating that. I would like to let you know the Christians here are praying for you, not wanting to kill you.
”We're just giving him the respect that he gives us.”
Where are your serious questions? Instead we get you cannot believe in an invisible God because we cannot see him…even though He said He is invisible. You keep telling everyone they must believe in your science teacher, who cannot tell me where everything came from. And then even claim that that is not what evolution is supposed to do. Then you say we are all evolving and we cannot see it…but do not believe in a God you cannot see! What?
David w irish said
“See, for most creationists, what they think is truth, and anything that goes against it is obviously wrong, and so they start from that point.”
I read your whole post…and that is exactly what you did!
“For people like myself, we cast aside what we actually believe temporarily, and give all sides the benefit of the doubt.”
The following is just a snippet of how you cast aside your beliefs temporarily
“One was Hugh Ross, who is admittedly an OLD EARTH CREATIONIST -- he fully accepts that the earth is 4.5 billion years old, and that the Universe is between 12 and 20 billion years old, because he is an astrophysicist.”
Wow you believe in an old earth, so what part of your belief did you put aside?
“Most books about creationism are written by ministers, missionaries, and apologists who have about as much actual knowledge and understanding in science as a 4th-grader, and their books are always agenda-driven rather than fact driven.”
Again I am so glad you put your beliefs aside…and did not fully tell me how stupid, and uneducated I am. Wow that whole statement was filled with your belief system…please just tell me what you put aside?
Again all you seem to be filled with is hatred, and bias. You tell me I cannot believe because God could not have done it the way the Bible says. But tell me to believe something that clearly as dale said does not even try to tell where life came from, just how it got to this point. I have proven that there has been lies in the textbooks, but atheists throw stones with televangelism. When did anyone on here stick up for televangelism? But that does not say everybody who is on TV trying to share the gospel is a charlatan. Ray consistently tries to get people to understand that some who say they are Christian are not in fact Christian. Ray is not deciding who is and who isn’t…the Bible does, and only God ultimately knows. Jesus said there are going to be a lot on the Day of Judgment who will find out that they were deceived. That goes for religious people, and non-religious people. The easter bunny, santa, etc do not exist…and us Christians are aware of that. You guys feel lead to constantly use that straw man when you tell me not to believe in God. But satan is real, and he would just love for you to continue to believe that we are the fanatics, and that you are the rational ones. Please just repent…God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked…and it is wicked to deny He exists. The straw man will be burnt up on the day of judgment, as well as all who believed in him.
Respectfully wdjd4jh
@ Ex-atheist:
How to be an atheist is priceless and so true of most of the atheists who post here.
@Ashley:
Unfortunately, most of the skeptics on this blog do not seem to share your worldview. I know Clos doesn't because I had a discussion about the very point you brought up and he responded with a rant about how our Christian beliefs cannot be allowed to permeate every level of society, there was something about Ronald Reagan and fortune tellers(?), and how it was his duty to make me think about my beliefs (as if I blindly stumbled into Christianity without ever giving it a second thought). Where the Christian's motivation is to save, the atheist's motivation is to destroy - at least, that is what I determine based on the representative sample of atheists who frequent this blog.
I am glad, Ashley, that you have come here and shown me that is not always the case.
{{{... don't you know that Ray and most evangelicals live in a completely different reality that precludes the reality that we experience with our senses? You have to get them to first take off their stain-glass colored glasses, which blind them to the reality you see.}}}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[REPLY]
I would have to say I 100% agree with this statement.
My reality says that this world is not my home - I am a pilgrim here. One day I will see the Lord face to face and I will have a glorious reality. I am sorry to say that the atheist (and all unbelievers) will have a shocking reality and that they freely chose to ignore all the warnings.
My #2 son has a great, though still small blog, (you can find it by googling "Josh's Blog lolzky") and on it he says this in his entry on street preaching....
[beginning of quote from Josh's blog entry]
"...we offered them tracts as they passed by. Every single one of them (four or five if I remember correctly) refused to take the tracts. They were polite of course, which is always appreciated, but after they were gone I starting thinking about that day of judgment, the day when the books are opened and every man is judged according to his works. Should those people die without repenting and asking for God's mercy, they will one day stand with the books open in front of them. There could be an entry like this:
February 16, 2008, 4:30(ish) PM – Presented with the good news of Jesus, offered literature and opportunity to repent. Rejected the Christ.
They will not be very happy right then, I imagine. First Corinthians 1:18 says:
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
[end of quote from Josh's blog entry]
Those of you on this blog (Ray Comfort's) hear the Word continually. You know that there are people praying for you by name. And then I think of the Christians in North Korea that risk their lives to minister to others and give out the Gospel. I think of Vanya in (then) Soviet Russia that died a martyr's death. From his short life here on earth untold numbers have accepted Jesus as Christ and Lord of their lives - but Vanya's main persecutor died broken and insane.
I think of how in the space of a few seconds my #1 son went from having full use of two legs to having one leg partially lame and continual pain from nerve damage. How a fellow teacher that worked along side my husband is now a quadraplegic after a terrible automobile accident.
Your life can change in seconds - and you will not be ready if you continue to reject all the light that you are getting here at this blog.
Reality? Reality is that the devil is like a roaring lion seeking who he may devour. He is an angel of light that looks good and logical and moral - but he is a rotting corpse, a murderer, a liar, and a thief.
I once took a graduate level course in existentialism. I really never opened my mouth much - but I was one of the 4 students in the (large) class that actually understood the subject matter that the professor (he was Indian, I think) was talking about. I never said I was a Christian, but one day he just started calling me "Christian Girl." Towards the end of the semester I can remember him taking most of the class time to sum up his life philosophy of existentialism when he suddenly pointed at me and said "You there, Christian Girl, isn't this very logical?" Actually is was - so I said, "Yes, it is very logical - but that doesn't make it true." That was probably the longest sentence I had spoken in the class - and I can still see that poor, lost man's face. He was very crushed and actually shut his mouth, looked away and changed the subject.
I praise God that I saw Light and chose to act upon that Light. I will keep praying for those whose "reality" is still darkness.
Patti
Ray Said,"...stupidity of denying a Creator, with creation staring at you in the face. The atheist will only harm himself."
What evidence do you have for your assertion that 'creation (is) staring at you in the face'?
From what I have seen on this blog so far, I would think that your claim that what you see is the work of a higher power is based on intuitions and/or text written 6000 yeas ago. Unfortunately for you, science has shown us that a correct explaination for what we observe in the world and the universe is often counter-intuitive. This is why we need better evidence than a hunch or hearsay. Unless you can come up with some valid evidence for your assertion concerning a super natural being, there is noting stupid about withholding belief in a claim that is unsupported.
On the other hand, a person who accept something based on hunches or little to no evidence that is considered to be gullible. A hunch is a great starting point in the pursuit for knowledge but should never be the basis of it.
Intuition: 'The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes'
Only a real fool would rest his beliefs on intuition.
Word is Bond!
~Atomic Chimp
It amazes me when the atheists jump all over the Christians for quote mining when they do the exact same thing with the Bible.
For instance, quote mining from the Bible about "fool". Forgetting the whole context and then distorting the whole meaning of what's being talked about in said quote to make their (atheist) point.
Very hypocritical.
Very typical.
Try heeding your own "advice" atheists.
#1 You don't read the Bible for study, but you merely cut/paste from your favorite sites (talkorigins, pandasthumb, etc...)
#2 When you do try to slap a quote from the Bible to say "ahhhaahhh" to the Christian you have neither referenced properly, nor have you diligently studied the context of said quote.
#3 You become an instant hypocrite because you vehemently accuse Christians here for quote mining yet you do the very same thing from the Bible. And then...
#4 You become extremely foolish, and cannot take any type of rebuke, and defend why you quote mined in the first place by trying to upstage studied Christians who have spent time in the scripture more than you have, by claiming that you know more about the Bible more than they, because...
#5 You believe that Christians are a) idiots, b) uneducated, and c) liars. All this because you trust a mere man (Dawkins) and his "Bible" (The God Delusion), and at the same time rail on the Bible because it was written by men.
Atheists are sometimes some of the most hypocritical people. Forgetting that the very thing they accuse Christians of, they do themselves and have every right of doing.
What are you guys and gals so afraid of?
Let me guess, your afraid of Christians taking over the world and turning into Nazis and exterminating everyone who doesn't believe in the Bible like you say the Iquisition and Crusades did.
Wow, talk about fearful people believing in a conspiracy theory.
My favorite saying pops up again...
(paraphrased)
"Me thinks you protest too much..."
Do you atheists know what that means? What Shakespeare meant with that phrase?
IF not, he meant that you must be afraid or hiding something for you to be protesting so much about it. Your guilt is shouting out so much that you're trying to over shout (if you will) your own guilty conscience.
If attacked, I will defend, that is my duty and free right. If evolution is taught in schols, then allow ID to be taught as an alternative, let reincarnation be taught as an alternative, in America we have that right and freedom. To NOT let people have that freedom, THAT, my friend is tyranny.
I have no joy or care to go about on atheist websites and camping merely for the purpose to stir up the atheists like you atheists have done on this blog.
In online gaming, campers are usually kicked out, or banned.
Ray is having mercy on you guys because he really does care about where you will spend eternity. And you guys know this about him. And I agree with him. And it's my hope that one of you will let the thought of "repent or you will perish" sink in enough to do a quick 180 before it's too late.
I deleted my original "R'amen", as you once again changed your original post and it now carries a wholly different message.
To modestmouse
You said, "I have very high moral standards..."
What do you base your standards on?
Society? Yourself?
If society, what segment of society?
You also said, "If I were to base my view of all Christians on YOU, then I would surely despise them for being cruel, brash, and judgmental."
Overreaction, yes?
To temple,
You said, "I've always claimed that my atheism is rooted in my own personal genius."
This is your April Fool (Lirpa Loof ) joke?
wdjd4jh:
We were talking about limiting God's power and somehow you turn it into a party in hell? I am still wondering how we are limiting God's power (from another post) by saying that God could do something? I guess saying that He had to do it a specific way doesn't limit His power at all!
Wdjd4jh:
In the thread entitled "Sarcasm Ahead," Ericloza said, "The universe must have a beginning, because the concept of the universe always existing does not allow us to arrive at today. 'What?' Allow me to explain. If the universe has always existed, then infinity lies behind us. If that were true, how long did it take for us to arrive at today? Infinity. How long does that last? Forever. If the universe always existed, then today would have taken forever to arrive, meaning it wouldn't have." By the same reasoning, if your preferred deity has always existed then infinity lies behind us. From there, you can just follow his chain of claims to reach the assertion that today would not arrive. Now, if you do not accept his reasoning then you may accept that the universe may always heve been here. I have yet to see anyone present an argument that some being was needed to cause the universe that would not also show that being needed another being to cause it.
Wait a second... creation--creator.
I just got it.
FACT: Webster's definition of "creation" includes:
"(n.) 5. the world; universe."
If the world is real, creation is real. The world IS real, so creation IS ALSO real.
FACT: Webster's definition of "creation" also contains:
"(n.) 4. the original bringing into existence of the universe by God."
THEREFORE: Only a food would deny that Webster has proven that God created the universe. It's so simple! It's right there in the dictionary, which means that any competent speaker of English should understand it.
I hereby repent of my sins and find new life in Christ Jesus, Lord and Savior of mankind. Praise be unto Him! Peace be upon His name forever!
wdjd4jh - Tonight I am so glad you brought up that old canard, that to be Christian is to be peaceful and loving... I am so glad that you told about those nasty Muslims, the ones who kill people whilst the Christians go round doing their thing.
Killing. Planting bombs. Yep. God fearing Christians - planting big bombs on the streets of London. Blowing humans to pieces in the name of land and a different flavour of the same god.
So you excuse me if I treat your argument with the ridicule it deserves... For in the past few days we have seen people lie for Jesus... Not so long ago I saw buildings blown to bits and bodies shredded by Christians who believed it ok to kill for Jesus.
Never tell me about the so called moral high ground you occupy. I have seen first hand just how low and blood soaked it is.
"In this vision, he looks like he could be an american indian, or perhaps mideastern man."
Why did you have to give your fool a nationality? Are you insinuating that American Indians and those from the Middle East are fools?
Weren't you guys all in a tither over Ray doing so a few posts back?
Just wondering.
:)
to alanrd67, excellent quote from C.H. Spurgeon, very excellent, and this was back in the late 1800's too.
To: ex-atheist
.. a nice little post.
A sincere thank you!
-LAOF
Temple said "I think, therefore I am [an atheist]."
Coming from someone who can't control their own heartbeat or from growing old and dying.
Foolish!!!
"This is a bit freightening, and I am very curious to find out if there is a bible character called Lirpa Loof. Obviously, I don't know if that spelling is correct."
Dale, I remember you communicating once before that you have read the Bible many times and own many copies. Maybe you can tell us whether there is such a character in the Bible?
Clostridium said...
If it makes Ray feel better to call me a fool, so be it. Ray, that must mean you think you are super-smart...I thought pride was a sin. Christians, always humble.
Actually it's not Ray that is calling you a fool, God Almighty is the one claiming this, Ray is just relaying the message:
Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Clostridium said...
If it makes Ray feel better to call me a fool, so be it. Ray, that must mean you think you are super-smart...I thought pride was a sin. Christians, always humble.
Actually it's not Ray that is calling you a fool, God Almighty is the source:
Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Ray is just relaying the message with Christian humility indeed.
allfiredup said
'It amazes me when the atheists jump all over the Christians for quote mining when they do the exact same thing with the Bible.
For instance, quote mining from the Bible about "fool". Forgetting the whole context and then distorting the whole meaning of what's being talked about in said quote to make their (atheist) point.
Very hypocritical.
Very typical.'
I got my information about National Atheist Day from a Christian website. If I quote mined then this Christian website did it first. Nothing about context. Just atheists being fools and corrupt and unable to do good and so on.
So why don't you enlighten us about the true meaning of that quote.
To blog moderator.
Thank you for spotting the word I omitted and correcting my comment so that it makes sense. Good proof-reading. :)
Stranger in a Strange Land
@Paul
"Actually it's not Ray that is calling you a fool, God Almighty is the source"
You mean a book that claims that God is the source.
Happy Atheist Day, Ray! I just wanted to let you know that I am praying for you and thanking God for all He does through you. Keep up the excellent work. I am learning so much reading your blog every day.
I am also thanking God for ex-atheist (and his beautiful comment) and praying for many more ex-atheist's...keep up the faithful work, Ray!
Yes! I love to pray for atheist to become ex-atheist...I LOVE the way that sounds!!!
Its actually 66 books that make the claim of God's existance and authority. The Bible is a library.
Amanda!
Good to see you here! I did indeed read your last post in our conversation about separation and wholeness. It's been a rewarding and profitable discusssion for me as well. I hope we can continue it. You're saying a lot of worthwhile stuff.
Dale said
“And you sir are a humorless blob.”
You need to work on your socialization skills, that was borderline mean, rude, and nasty.
Dale said
“One of my favorites. It shows you that God thinks of the man's wife as his property.”
This is my favorite atheistic straw man, apparently I should let anyone do what ever they want to my wife. I am so glad you are not God...you do not think anything is sacred. The celebrities in Hollywood would be better off if they used this verse...they change partners more than I change shoes.
Modestmouse said
“then you wouldn't label us all as drug addicts who are too stupid or foolish to be left to our own devices.”
Wow Ray was referring to the Bible verse calls the atheists a fool. But he never said the atheist was a drug addict, he just changed and talked about what he learned working with drug addicts. He sure did not say that everyone that is atheist is a drug addict.
Matthew wooler said
"Never tell me about the so called moral high ground you occupy. I have seen first hand just how low and blood soaked it is."
Wow that would be us...we do that all after we answer the atheists posts about a Bible they cannot understand, and tell them about the God they cannot see. Then I spend the rest of the time trying to get them to tell us where we came from, but your theory does not attempt to explain that. You just tell us we are still evolving, but we cannot see it...that could be why we do not believe. When you get on the other side you'll see who did the killing...but that will not help you. Columbine was carried out by people who hated Christians and purposefully went to send Christians to their maker.
Pvblivs said
“Ericloza said, "The universe must have a beginning, because the concept of the universe always existing does not allow us to arrive at today. 'What?”
Boy I am so glad that this is the first time ever, that I have heard this lame argument. God has to be laughing right now. Why? We are in time...not Him...He does not conform to your liking or thinking. He is not waiting for anything to pass. How sad that day when you try to use the excuse that you just could not get your mind around what was God doing all those years.
Nator said
“I guess saying that He had to do it a specific way doesn't limit His power at all.”
I am not limiting anything...hello...I am not deciding how he did anything...He said in the Bible how He did it. He did not say anything about using evolution, and He said the evening and the morning were a day. All I have to go by is what He said, I do not get to decide.
Clos said
“You mean a book that claims that God is the source.”
Alright...way to go clos finally your starting to hear...yes it is Gods book. He used men to write it. Just like a lawyer who may have his secretary dictate a letter for him. It was what he wanted to say, but she wrote it for him. But I still detected some sarcasm. Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. God had it written by men, and He claims that...not me...I just believe it.
Still not much for genuine questions, we just must silence the Christians You all have been warned, and know you will be warned again. My wife was watching a show earlier that had someone who had lost thier eye sight. They were terrified because they could not see. She just kept asking her father to hold her because it was so dark, and she was so scared. Hell is not going to just be about flames...it will be utter darkness. The flames will emit no light, and before you say it is impossible think again. I have seen crash videos of race drivers who wrecked, and were on fire but you could not see the flame. All this pain and suffering will be needless, because God made the way to escape. But you refuse to humble yourself, and take it...how sad!
respectfully wdjd4jh
Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
So that means then that atheist soldiers, firefighters (check out Bruce Monson in the Internet Infidels site) when they save human lives, doesn't count as "good" works, but rather "abominable"?
Yeah. The arrogance and self-righteousness of religious belief.
Monson has some interesting articles there A Firefighter Speaks-Out and No Miracles Required. In the second article, he documents the attitude that typifies the second part of that verse:
I had to call in a report to my base hospital, so I took this moment to do so. While I was in the next room on the telephone another girl said to me, "Yeah, we really would like to have you at our church!"
After this second invitation it dawned on me that we had walked into a Christian group meeting! This wasn't to be the end of it, however. When I returned to the first girl to give her some final instructions about "controlling her breathing," she continued with her mission: "You know, you really do need to come to my church." And then, putting her hand on my arm, she added, "It's OK, I used to be a bad person too!"
Gill's Commentary:
Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart,
"a body, a set of men, who justly bear this character; and design not such who are idiots, persons void of common sense and understanding; but such who are fools in their morals, without understanding in spiritual things; wicked profligate wretches, apostates from God, alienated from the life of God; and whose hearts are full of blindness and ignorance, and whose conversations are vile and impure, and they enemies of righteousness, though full of all wicked subtlety and mischief: these say in their hearts, which are desperately wicked, and out of which evil thoughts proceed, pregnant with atheism and impiety; these endeavour to work themselves into such a belief, and inwardly to conclude, at least to wish,"
there is no God;
"though they do not express it with their mouths, yet they would fain persuade their hearts to deny the being of God; that so having no superior to whom they are accountable, they may go on in sin with impunity; however, to consider him as altogether such an one as themselves, and to remove such perfections from him, as may render him unworthy to be regarded by them; such as omniscience, omnipresence, &c. and to conceive of him as entirely negligent of and unconcerned about affairs of this lower world, having nothing to do with the government of it: and thus to deny his perfections and providence, is all one as to deny his existence, or that there is a God: accordingly the Targum paraphrases it,
"there is no שולטנא, "government" of God in the earth;''
so Kimchi interprets it,
"there is no governor, nor judge in the world, to render to man according to his works;''"
they are corrupt;
"that is, everyone of these fools; and it is owing to the corruption of their hearts they say such things: they are corrupt in themselves; they have corrupt natures, they are born in sin, and of the flesh, and must be carnal and corrupt: or "they do corrupt", or "have corrupted" (z): they corrupt themselves by their atheistic thoughts and wicked practices, Jud_1:10; or their works, as the Chaldee paraphrase adds; or their ways, their manner and course of life, Gen_6:12; and they corrupt others with their evil communications, their bad principles and practices, their ill examples and wicked lives;"
they have done abominable works: "every sinful action is abominable in the sight of God; but there are some sins more abominable than others; there are abominable idolatries, and abominable lusts, such as were committed in Sodom; and it may be these are pointed at here, and which are usually committed by such who like not to retain God in their knowledge; see Rom_1:24;"
**So the firefighter story, no good deeds are not abominable to God, they're just not enough to get you into heaven.
there is none that doeth good; "anyone good work in a spiritual manner; not in faith, from love, in the name and strength of Christ, and with a view to the glory of God: nor can any man do a good work without the grace of God, and strength from Christ, and the assistance of the Spirit of God: hence, whatsoever a wicked man does, whether in a civil or in a religious way, is sin; see Pro_21:4. Arama takes these to be the words of the fool, or atheist, saying, there is no God that does good, like those in Zep_1:12."
**Zephaniah 1:12
At that time I will search Jerusalem with lamps, and I will punish the men who are complacent, those who say in their hearts, 'The LORD will not do good, nor will he do ill.'
reynold said
"So that means then that atheist soldiers, firefighters (check out Bruce Monson in the Internet Infidels site) when they save human lives, doesn't count as "good" works, but rather "abominable"?"
This typifies the the biggest misunderstanding that you guys have about Christianity. This is a very good thing that he is doing for people, but this will not get him into heaven. Although this man is doing good things in outwardly appearence, you people do not know his whole life. So you sit here as judge over God again from your holy throne. That day you will see the rest of this mans life displayed...maybe not...maybe you will only see your life displayed. I would be much more concerened about my life displayed before the eyes of a holy God than judging God. God has sad that no "good work" will bribe the judge, he requires a blood sacrifice to pay for sins. That is why Jesus died...He was the blood sacrifice. That firefighter can recieve a full pardon, but you guys want it done your way. That firefighter has broken every law we have...because the Bible says all have sinned.
Still not much genuine questions, just slanders and judging of God. God paid His own debt that was required, but you'll refuse it because it is not being done your way.
respectfully wdjd4jh
@wdjd
I said: “You mean a book that claims that God is the source.”
"Alright...way to go clos finally your starting to hear...yes it is Gods book. He used men to write it. Just like a lawyer who may have his secretary dictate a letter for him. It was what he wanted to say, but she wrote it for him. But I still detected some sarcasm."
How can you be so sure of this? What is the evidence apart from the non sequitur, "it says God is it's author, so it must be".
"Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. God had it written by men, and He claims that...not me...I just believe it."
First, this is circular, the book claims it was divinely inspired. Second, if prophecies are your answer, my question is this: how difficult would it be to write a sequel to a previous book?
"Still not much for genuine questions, we just must silence the Christians You all have been warned, and know you will be warned again. My wife was watching a show earlier that had someone who had lost thier eye sight. They were terrified because they could not see. She just kept asking her father to hold her because it was so dark, and she was so scared. Hell is not going to just be about flames...it will be utter darkness. The flames will emit no light, and before you say it is impossible think again. I have seen crash videos of race drivers who wrecked, and were on fire but you could not see the flame. All this pain and suffering will be needless, because God made the way to escape. But you refuse to humble yourself, and take it...how sad!"
Always this fear mechanism with you Christians. When you can't provide evidence you must resort to "well, either you believe this or you will burn forever...here, let me describe it..."
wdjd4jh quoting me:
"So that means then that atheist soldiers, firefighters (check out Bruce Monson in the Internet Infidels site) when they save human lives, doesn't count as "good" works, but rather "abominable"?"
This typifies the the biggest misunderstanding that you guys have about Christianity. This is a very good thing that he is doing for people, but this will not get him into heaven.
I never said it would; I was just saying that unlike what the bible says, he, an atheist, does do things that are considered by you people to be "good".
It was a refutation of the slanderous way non-believers are portrayed in that verse. When is says that there is none that "doeth good" that implies that no non-believer has ever done anything good. By refuting that, I also refute the ad-hom attack that says that non-believers are fools.
That's it.
Although this man is doing good things in outwardly appearence, you people do not know his whole life.
I'm not talking about his whole life. Also, before you judge this man, as you already have, ask yourself: Which is more moral? The person who risks their live while expecting a heavenly reward, or a person who does so with no such expectations?
So you sit here as judge over God again from your holy throne.
Huh? I was talking about Monson, not "God" here. I was talking about Monson's actions.
That day you will see the rest of this mans life displayed...maybe not...maybe you will only see your life displayed. I would be much more concerened about my life displayed before the eyes of a holy God than judging God. God has sad that no "good work" will bribe the judge, he requires a blood sacrifice to pay for sins. That is why Jesus died...He was the blood sacrifice. That firefighter can recieve a full pardon, but you guys want it done your way. That firefighter has broken every law we have...because the Bible says all have sinned.
So what? That bible verse implied that athiests are incapable of doing good. I was refuting that singular verse.
Still not much genuine questions, just slanders and judging of God.
I was not talking about "God" here.
I was refuting a slanderous accusation made by the writers of your "holy book".
From Clostridium:
"@Paul
'Actually it's not Ray that is calling you a fool, God Almighty is the source.'
You mean a book that claims that God is the source."
Clos, look, at least give Ray, Paul, and the rest of us the benefit of the doubt: we actually believe that it is God's Book. And therefore, we use it as a rule of life. We are being consistent with our beliefs. Believing the Bible is what it means to be a true Christian. If you don't believe the Bible, then you are not a Christian (which disqualifies most claimants here in America and also in Europe, but I digress).
So, in all your criticism, please consider this: if we didn't think it was God saying it to us, we wouldn't worry about repeating it to you, because it wouldn't be that important. However, because we do believe that God is speaking through the Bible, we also believe--and act as though--it is essential for you to know what it says. For your own good.
rita martinez
**So the firefighter story, no good deeds are not abominable to God, they're just not enough to get you into heaven.
I never said that they were; I'm just saying that it's an example of an athiest doing something "good", period.
there is none that doeth good; "anyone good work in a spiritual manner; not in faith, from love, in the name and strength of Christ, and with a view to the glory of God: nor can any man do a good work without the grace of God, and strength from Christ, and the assistance of the Spirit of God:
Which would count as more of a good deed? Someone who risks there life believing that they'll be going to heaven if they die, or someone who risks their life believing that death is final?
It seems that some can do good work without "outside help".
@Choco
Temple (me) said, "I've always claimed that my atheism is rooted in my own personal genius."
You said, "This is your April Fool (Lirpa Loof ) joke?"
____
You'll note that my complete comment was "I've always claimed that my atheism is rooted in my own personal genius. This is contrary to your Christianity being rooted in your own personal Genie"
Now, I will say that what I wrote is most definitely not a joke, although I was being a little bit tongue in cheek. One of the points I was trying to make was that atheism is rational and logical, while religion (ALL religion) is completely rooted in unsubstantiated beliefs, willful ignorance and brainwashing. Hence the comparison of genius to genies.
An open mind, capable of critical thought, will be an atheist mind- to be otherwise is to be deliberately ignorant. I am not saying religious people are stupid, but they are certainly deficient in some basic manner, in much the same way as racists, homophobes and sexists, etc. are deficient in some manner. Your actual deficiency is largely irrelevant, but since this is a Christian blog, I am staying (mostly) on the topic of religion. What is relevant is the continued denial of basic fact, and the distortion of knowledge to serve a religious agenda. It insults my intelligence.
You can pervert logic, fact and science all you want, it still won't mean God exists. Until your preposterous notions are extinguished or, miraculously, actually manage to become sensical and cogent, you force me to conclude that religious people are utterly irrational. Genius vs. Genie. You can START THINKING or just keep rubbing the lamp. Your choice.
TEMPLE
Greetings and Salutations - Brothers & Sisters! Forgive me for being away the last few days.
Just busy with setting up new Blogs for the "People" with God based themes. I am sure I can get an AMEN from the Atheists ? lol :)
Ray, thanks for sending me the April 1st "ATHEIST" bumper sticker in time along with a shipment of MILLION dollar tracts. Great Ice Breakers! Always running out !
LOVE them! I just don't understand the "People" that lean on their own understanding (the woman in your story) instead of God's Word. The answers are all there. We just need to OPEN our minds, HUMBLE ourselves, and Pray to Jesus Christ.
Is it that difficult?
Terry Burton,
Thanks for coming over to my blog and threatening me and my friends.
I'll bet Ray and company would be sooo proud of you- not.
That was the most unethical post I have ever had on my blogsite.
Terry Burton,
Thanks for coming over to my blog and threatening me and my friends.
I'll bet Ray and company would be sooo proud of you- not.
That was the most unethical post I have ever had on my blogsite.
wdj,
you said,
"This is my favorite atheistic straw man, apparently I should let anyone do what ever they want to my wife. I am so glad you are not God...you do not think anything is sacred."
No, that is not what I said in any way shape or form. I merely pointed out that the commandment you wrote about refers to a man's wife as his property, and it does.
You said: "So that means then that atheist soldiers, firefighters (check out Bruce Monson in the Internet Infidels site) when they save human lives, doesn't count as "good" works, but rather "abominable"?
I answered. But again, no they are not counted as abominable.
"It was a refutation of the slanderous way non-believers are portrayed in that verse. When is says that there is none that "doeth good" that implies that no non-believer has ever done anything good. By refuting that, I also refute the ad-hom attack that says that non-believers are fools."
Psalm 14:1
"there is none that doeth good; "anyone good work in a spiritual manner; not in faith, from love, in the name and strength of Christ, and with a view to the glory of God: nor can any man do a good work without the grace of God, and strength from Christ, and the assistance of the Spirit of God: hence, whatsoever a wicked man does, whether in a civil or in a religious way, is sin; see Pro_21:4." ** John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Romans 3:12
there is none that does good, no, not one; and therefore must be unprofitable. There is none that can do good in a spiritual manner, without the grace of God, strength from Christ, and the assistance of the Spirit; and there is not even a spiritual man, that can do good perfectly, and without sin.
"Which would count as more of a good deed? Someone who risks there life believing that they'll be going to heaven if they die, or someone who risks their life believing that death is final?"
"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Mark 8:36
“The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.”
My heart breaks when I think about how many people have turned away from God because of people who have claimed to have a relationship with God, then done hurtful or said hurtful things to others. I'm so sorry that you've had to experience the hurt and pain that so many of you have endured at the hands of those who were not truly followers of Christ, but instead only claimed to be with their words. So many forget Jesus', the Son of God's, teaching that there is no greater commandment than these: "Love God and love others". We've all been guilty of not loving others, but we do our best to do just that- love others. God did it for us. He was the ultimate example of love. God gave His Son so that we wouldn't have to die, so that we wouldn't have to go to Hell. He loved us so much and did this knowing that we couldn't save ourselves...
What is happening? While we argue over who's right and wrong, the truth is that many are dying without knowing the truth of the love of our Savior Jesus, and His Father who sent them.
Dale:
What is the name of your blog? I would like to read "Terry Burton's post.
@wdjd4jh:
Apparently, you don't understand what a circular argument is. Allow me to use the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monsters as a demonstration:
For behold, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the beginning and the end, the Alfredo and the Oregano. All those who do not embrace His Thiamine-Rich Goodness will be doomed to an eternity of consuming slightly-too-spicy meatballs. This is the infallible word of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, given unto the hearts of cynical bloggers by the touch of His Noodly Appendage.
Let's say that you (quite reasonably) tell me that the above is extremely silly and you don't believe a word of it. And then imagine that I say "But look! It says right there it's the infallible word of FSM! That proves it's real!" Would you be convinced by this argument? Why or why not?
In other words, the fact that Bible says it's the word of God doesn't actually prove that it actually is the word of God. Proof just plain doesn't work like that.
Songofthesadbird,
I want to tell you that I detect in your comment a most compelling compassion, with a warm and welcome appeal.
I can sincerely appreciate your call for us all to adhere to some principle that would unite us all, my question is; What are the terms of your solution?
Psalm 14:1
"there is none that doeth good; "anyone good work in a spiritual manner; not in faith, from love, in the name and strength of Christ, and with a view to the glory of God: nor can any man do a good work without the grace of God, and strength from Christ, and the assistance of the Spirit of God: hence, whatsoever a wicked man does, whether in a civil or in a religious way, is sin; see Pro_21:4." ** John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Romans 3:12
there is none that does good, no, not one; and therefore must be unprofitable. There is none that can do good in a spiritual manner, without the grace of God, strength from Christ, and the assistance of the Spirit; and there is not even a spiritual man, that can do good perfectly, and without sin.
So according to the bible, only "spiritual things" (ie. one's own conversion and converting others, I assume?) can count as being truly "good"?
Saving people's lives, feeding the poor, caring for one's family don't count? That's religious thinking for you...I remember that Pat Robertson's group got into trouble in Africa once because they focussed more on converting people than they were on feeding them.
That'd probably explain why one needs your deity in order to do good things. You have to believe in him in order to convert others to your belief system.
"Which would count as more of a good deed? Someone who risks there life believing that they'll be going to heaven if they die, or someone who risks their life believing that death is final?"
"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Mark 8:36
That verse just emphasizes the point I'm trying to make...Let me try again. Who's more altruistic or good in motive...the person who risked his life for another knowing that he's not going to get a reward for it in the afterlife, or the person who risks their life for another person while believing that they are going to be getting a reward in the afterlife?
reynold said
"I was refuting a slanderous accusation made by the writers of your "holy book"."
God claims to be the writer of the said holy book.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
2 Peter 1:20. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
The said Holy Ghost is God. God said that He moved them to speak, and write because it says scriptures.
Clos said
"First, this is circular, the book claims it was divinely inspired. Second, if prophecies are your answer, my question is this: how difficult would it be to write a sequel to a previous book?"
Here we go with the circular again...so how can I go to talkorgins then? They claim to have the truth, and the proof is on thier site! The Bible has prophecies that were fullfilled to back it up. Your right for us the prophecies argument seems out of place because we have the whole book. People before Christ did not have a whole book, so it is not circular. You see an old book and say that there is no proof...but before Christ they did not have the whole book. But they had a book that talked about His coming, and then they saw those prophecies fullfilled in Jesus Christ. Their books talked about Christ dying on the cross. Their book talked about Him being virgin born, and it was fullfilled. Their book talked about Him coming out of Bethlahem. The list of prophecies He fullfilled is extensive. You see blind faith...I see proof.
"Always this fear mechanism with you Christians. When you can't provide evidence you must resort to "well, either you believe this or you will burn forever...here, let me describe it..."
Wait till that day then...just do not worry about it...I am not the expert. I believe the Bible, and if it is true you will have wished someone knocked you out instead of let you walk in to Hell. I am not here to hinder your beliefs what so ever....but you have acted like Christians are heartless. Do not believe what anyone else says, continue to tell us how unintelligant we are to believe in fairy tales. If I am so deluded why do feel the need to turn me around? Why do you care about me? I care about you! I do not want to see you perish!
respectfully wdjd4jh
Check out Pharygula on the scienceblogs site, the post titled None so blind as those who will not see to see who the real fools are.
Rufus,
"What is the name of your blog? I would like to read "Terry Burton's post."
Just click on my name and go to my profile.
Click on the "View my website," Not "The Bushy Tree" link. That is a blog I'm working on.
You will find Terry's threats and bad behaviour on the Post, "On the Movie, Expelled,.........."
wdjd4jh said...
Their book talked about Him being virgin born, and it was fullfilled.
Actually 'virgin' is a mistranslation; it should be 'young women'. Plus we have the problem of the name supposed to be "Immanual'
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a "almah" shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."
Their book talked about Him coming out of Bethlahem.
No. The prophecy is a great leader would come from the tribe Bethlehem Ephratah and conquer the Assyrians. The New Testament (Matthew?) chopped off the tribe reference and ignored the killing the Assyrians part too.
"Saving people's lives, feeding the poor, caring for one's family don't count? That's religious thinking for you...I remember that Pat Robertson's group got into trouble in Africa once because they focussed more on converting people than they were on feeding them."
Those are good deeds. They're not spiritual good deeds thats what i've been trying to emphasize. In any case, good deeds wont save ya, its like trying to tell the judge "but judge! I've feed the hungry and clothed the poor!" Like its going to buy you out of prison. Get it?
I don't know who Pat Robertson is, I'm not american. What I do know that a true Christian will heed to Christ commands written on His word. Which tells us, among many other things pertaining to caring for others, "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.".
"That'd probably explain why one needs your deity in order to do good things. You have to believe in him in order to convert others to your belief system."
We don't convert anyone. We are called to preach His word, in season and out of season. And it would be pretty pointless and hypocritical to preach something you don't actually believe in.
That verse just emphasizes the point I'm trying to make...Let me try again. Who's more altruistic or good in motive...the person who risked his life for another knowing that he's not going to get a reward for it in the afterlife, or the person who risks their life for another person while believing that they are going to be getting a reward in the afterlife?
What makes you think that what impulses us to risk our lives to save others is the reward of an afterlife?
I don't preach the Gospel to someone because I'm gonna get brownie points afterward...I preach the Gospel so that God may be glorified and because I care about the other person and want to see her or him saved!
Although there are people who do it for the rewards. But we are to give without expecting anything in return.
{{{...In other words, the fact that Bible says it's the word of God doesn't actually prove that it actually is the word of God. Proof just plain doesn't work like that.}}}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[REPLY]
That is why you can't start here. I would agree - what makes the Bible so special? How do we know God authored it?
But if you start in creation and realize that there is a Creator - then it would be reasonable to see that the Bible is Hs letter to us.
Laura, you have a very quick and logical mind. I would not stand up to a debate with you - but no one will find God through debate and logic- not because God isn't logical (He made logic after all!) - but because God has made it so that you must come to Him in spirit and in truth. He wants you to love Him, and to see how much He loves you.
I know I've set myself up for possible fodder - but your soul is worth far more than my pride.
Patti
irukandji said...
"Let's say that you (quite reasonably) tell me that the above is extremely silly and you don't believe a word of it. And then imagine that I say "But look! It says right there it's the infallible word of FSM! That proves it's real!" Would you be convinced by this argument? Why or why not?"
I would ask you for what prophecies FSM claimed to have made, and how they were fulfilled. I would look at the validity of the claims, and the historical records for said book. The same standards you use for saying you trust the science data, and scientists. Only difference you have never read the Bible with the same open mind that you accuse me of not using for your textbooks. "Talkorgins says that their are Christians who believe this why do you not believe it. My teacher believes it why do you not believe it are you better than my teacher...you know that kind of reasoning." How many times have you guys gave this impression or outright said the same. Before you blow a cork and say I am accusing any one here of saying my teacher said so...I had another atheist that I talked to tell me that very thing. He also said that since collages were teaching it, it must be true. I wish I could just say that I do not care if you want to follow FSM, but I cannot. You think it is about religion, and Christians have tried to tell you that it is not. I make mistakes every day, and will continue to do so…as I am not perfect. You could probably catch me any given day doing, or saying something that I should not. Though I may fail miserably to live up to your standard, I fail even more miserably to Gods. But the mistakes I make with you guys will be with you forever, but God has promised if I ask for forgiveness from him He will never remember it again. I will never hear well remember when wdjd4jh said this…how stupid could he be. I have Gods promise that those who trust in the LORD will never be ashamed. What promise did FSM make you? Still no desire to learn, just mock…I have asked genuine questions to which have never received genuine answers…except some from Clos, and Jason. Amazing how people hold Christians to a standard that they will never stoop to themselves. But God holds me to a stricter standard but has promised to help me all the way. He is real and He is just, holy, pure, without sin…He is also merciful that is why you are allowed to mock…but His mercy will run out.
Respectfully wdjd4jh
I would look at the validity of the claims, and the historical records for said book.
If we're talking about claims like a literal interpretation of Genesis, then you should know that the validity of these claims has been examined, over the course of the last few centuries, repeatedly and extensively. And every time, it has been found to be sadly wanting.
Only difference you have never read the Bible with the same open mind that you accuse me of not using for your textbooks.
Not true. I wasn't born and raised an atheist; I was born and raised a Christian (Episcopalian, if you're curious). I did the whole church and Sunday school thing for many years, and when I first read the Bible, I certainly considered myself to be a Christian. Ironically, the experience of reading the Bible is part of what led me to reconsider my faith.
…I have asked genuine questions to which have never received genuine answers…
What are these questions? I'd be perfectly happy to answer them - of course, I'm not the atheist pope or anything, so I only speak for myself.
* ATHEIST SPECIAL !!! FYI
Greetings Brothers & Sisters! in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Praying for you Atheists.
Just had a Question about my BUMPER sticker "April 1st-Atheist Day". Why are you displaying this on the rear bumper of the car?
In order to get People to THINK.
THINK about HOW "foolish" you are when you Say "there is no God". Then on Sunday, you go to church?
temple? tabernacle? The Bible is very clear on what Jesus Christ will say on Judgement Day.
"Depart from me, I NEVER Knew You!"
You can see my sticker on this: atheist-theory.blogspot.com
@clos: you said "If it makes Ray feel better to call me a fool, so be it. Ray, that must mean you think you are super-smart...I thought pride was a sin. Christians, always humble."
1believer answers: you have it wrong again. GOD is calling atheists fools. RAY is simply quoting HIM. Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
I think you are the one with pride, not Ray. Now how do you feel that GOD has called you a fool?
Let it be known before all and sundry, in the name of his most delicious and savory Self, the Flying Spaghetti Monster (pasta be upon him), that irukandji, the one formerly known as Laura, is hereby declared The Atheist Pope!
@1believer:
Now how do you feel that GOD has called you a fool?
Yeah, well, my invisible friend says you smell and your face is funny.
Seriously, that's what you sound like. Bombarding the other side with insulting Bible verses is only a productive tactic when the other side regards the Bible as any sort of authority (and, in case you missed the memo, atheists don't).
@Charles:
This . . . this is the happiest day of my life! Now I just need to make a really, really silly hat and wear it everywhere.
I think you are the one with pride, not Ray. Now how do you feel that GOD has called you a fool?
I'm guessing he feels much the same as he would if you told him Santa Claus called him a fool.
dale wrote: "I can sincerely appreciate your call for us all to adhere to some principle that would unite us all, my question is; What are the terms of your solution?"
Thank you for your sincerity.
I don’t believe that I was calling anyone to adhere to some principle that would “unite us all”. I don’t have any “terms” or any “solution”. Please correct me if I'm wrong...
My cry is that some Christians would stop being so demanding of some standard of perfection that no human being can reach. I ask for humility, for it is the poor in spirit who have been called blessed by Jesus, not the self-proclaimed “righteous”. My cry is that those who are speaking of Christ with their lips then living in ways that in no way reflect the character of God would stop speaking of Christ as though they know Him when clearly they don’t. I speak of the injustices I’ve become aware of- a woman who, as a child, was molested by her brother who is many years older than she is. This brother becomes a missionary and denies any claims of truth she makes. There are so many children who are abused by people in “the church”, whether it is physical or emotional abuse… There are other incidents of not only abuse of children, but of all sorts of examples of some Christians saying one thing and doing the other.
I simply ask for humility; a recognition of ourselves as one being no better than another, doing our best to act in love toward one another. It is in love for one another that we will not harm each other, that we will not act in pride, that we will see the truth. We live in a broken, damaged, screwed-up world and it’s going to be impossible to see such a thing happen.
But, we can try. We can hope. By the grace of God we will survive.
1believer:
Right here, right now, it is Ray who is calling atheists fools. He probably thinks the same of all non-believers. Whoever wrote the bible also made the same claim (and it was still prideful.) Your attribution, however, is in dispute.
Charles, and other atheists, you do know that atheism is a religion.
Already they have atheist sunday schools, churches and chaplains.
Just take a look at the Time article about "Sunday school for atheists"
Google it.
and "A 'Church for the Unchurched' provides community and moral support without God."
"The "atheist church" draws a variety of freethinkers, who identify themselves as skeptics, atheists, agnostics or doubters. In lieu of theology, these churchgoers cherish rationalism, and the motto of their church is "think"."
Called the North Texas Church of Freethought. Another called the Houston Church of Freethought.
Google that too.
I think they pray to Darwin or Dawkins or Lucy even. :P
The very thing you hate, religion, is what the very thing you love, atheism, is becoming.
It's only a matter of time before atheism is declared another religion, if it isn't already.
No way to stop it. Unless of course, you start a denomination of atheists against atheist churches, or something like that.
I think you're real pope is Dawkins, and your "Bible" is the "God Delusion" coupled with the "Humanist Manifesto"
Oh hey, I just noticed that Dissedent1 on Rational Response is in fact acknowledging that atheism IS indeed a religion, he says, "The formation of atheistic religions will not protect our rights or provide for social/political amelioration. Only by supporting non-Christian candidates and electing them into office can we ever hope to stem the tide of Christian Theocracy here in the U.S. and protect our rights and interests as citizens thereof.
I am become death, destroyer of worlds"
hmmm, he tends to forget that Christians have rights too, so in his "stemming" he wishes to actually do the very thing he hates others to do to him.
Wonderful reasoning,
NOT.
Songofthesadbird,
Makes me think of the song, 'Would you like to be the sad man, behind blue eyes.'
Anyway, I want to thank you for the most heartfelt and humanistic post from a "Christian" that I have seen here.
I think I detect a level handed approach to scripture, and to life in a most practical manner.
I would like very much to hear more about your spirituality and how you approach it.
Thanks for a very well thought out and well written comment.
Respectfully submitted, /dale
SongoftheSadBird
The hypocrisy that goes on in church is heartbreaking.
I really think that's why atheists are so adamant against Christians in general.
And that is so unfortunate.
I have a relative that was raped in a church. I have been slandered in a church myself and I've had a church kick my family out because we stood up for something we thought was right though they thought it was wrong.
I was so bitter at church for so long. And I was bitter more toward Christians in general.
We've had so many of our Christian college friends saying how great God is and writing Christian books and preaching and teaching in church only to find out that they were heavily involved in an affair or into pornography. They said one thing and acted completely opposite. I've seen teachers and preachers alike being caught in grevious sins they should have no business being into. They slander the name of Christ with their hypocrisy. The world sees it and says "Ahhaaa!!" Christians are hypocrites!
What they really should be saying is false converts are hypocrites, but even well meaning true, born again Christians can be hypocritical at times. That is something that Jesus rails against a lot, hypocrisy.
I've known professing Christians who claimed they knew Christ, but were emotionally battering their wife and getting a whole church involved in emotionally abusing her.
Pathetic! I really about had it with "church".
But not God. I didn't think it was the fault of God. For some reason, I didn't.
It wasn't God doing this, it wasn't my Lord Jesus, it was those who professed to know Christ, but were lying or the self deceived who were living in complete opposite of what the Bible teaches.
Those are the hypocrites that Jesus is so furious over. The Pharisees.
And I was one of them too.
I was a false convert for 22 years, and not even knowing it.
I would say one thing and completely do the opposite, lying through my teeth, with no remorse.
I had nearly destroyed my marriage because of my stupidity, sin, and arrogance, and immoral behavior.
I thank God that He had mercy on me, and saved me.
I am no better than anyone here. Though I may be better off in the end than some, not because of what I did but because of what God did.
My wife, to this day, says I'm a completely different man.
Sometimes my temper will flair up here and there and I've been frustrated with the atheists here particularly. Kind of like hitting the head against a brick wall I guess, I need to be more patient.
Atheists please know, that as Christians here, we don't enjoy arguing, I don't. But I can't help but defend what is precious to me. That may make no sense to you, just take it or leave it.
My heart goes out for atheists and especially false converts here.
I was once the false convert. A true hypocrite.
Atheists, I know what you mean about the "No True Scottsman Fallacy" and regarding that - the atheist is not understanding the remarkable change in a person's life when he is truly saved.
Truly! saved!
From his sins which lead him to Hell.
Hell was never made for humans but for Satan and the fallen angels, but all wickedness must go there.
It is not God's desire for anyone to perish.
Over and over the Bible talks about true and false conversion. Over and over. But the teaching of true and false conversion is not taught very well in churches these days.
Ray's True and False conversion hits this very point.
Regarding our state of humility, only in Christ can I remain humble as SongoftheSadBird mentioned we must be.
The only type of perfection that we can attain is to be saved from Hell. We can grow in holiness, shredding our former selves, but we still have a struggle for holiness. Even the Apostle Paul makes that clear in Romans. We constantly have to fight the flesh though the soul is made right with Christ. It's an ugly battle sometimes too.
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" —I Tim. 1:15 ~ Apostle Paul
What needs to be countered though is the lazy attitude whithin churches these days. Churches that are not preaching a clear Gospel. And that is why Ray's ministry hits home to me. He doesn't say anything new, the use of the Law when witnessing is vital so as not to produce more false converts that are already corrupting the church. The use of the Law was used by Jesus and the disciples and 100 years ago with Wesely, Spurgeon, Whitefield, and others. There is absolutely no reason why that key should be lost.
allfiredup,
I can't be responsible for folks who want embrace absurdities and illogic, whether they be atheist, Muslim, Christian, or whatever.
By definition, atheism posits no divine being. Atheism can't be a religion in that sense, since "religion" in the standard view does posit some sort of divine being or beings and deals with humanity's relationship to Him/Her/It/Them.
Ritual and symbolism are important can can link us to the world without demanding dogma and belief. In that sense, it's perfectly reasonable to participate in ritual to celebrate life passages, the change of the seasons, and personal revelation, without necessarily bringing some sort of God into the picture. There are plenty of neo-pagans practicing today who do exactly that. They sometimes refer to themselves as being pantheists rather than atheists. From that point of view, there is no God separate from us, because everything everywhere is God. Insofar as there can be a religion of the future, it's likely to be some sort of pantheism. Even a hard case like Dr Dawkins recognizes the value of ritual and symbolism.
Pantheism or atheism -- there is still no reason to believe in the Biblical God.
Charles, and other atheists, you do know that atheism is a religion.
Please explain, relying upon commonly understood meanings of the word "religion", how a lack of belief in deities constitutes a "religion".
Note that the existence of a subset of individuals who lack belief in deities engaging in some practices common to the practices of adherents of some religions is not itself evidence that the lack of belief in deities is a religion.
Allfriedup,
"
You said,
"Charles, and other atheists, you do know that atheism is a religion?"
Why no, I don't, and if I was practicing a religion, I would know it. This is a tired and worn out argument that is totally bogus.
Fundamentalists like to say this to try to put atheism on an equal playing field, as if I would say, "hey!" since I'm already practicing a religion, I might as well practice the religion that Afriedup is telling me about!"
Give me a break.
This is totally absurd.
"Religion is a set of beliefs and practices organized around supernatural and moral claims, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction."
You are becoming more delusional every time you post.
You've admitted that you are having emotional problems dealing with the atheists here. Maybe you need to take a break. Relax.
For the life of me, I can't understand why, if you are sure you are going to your heaven, why you would be having such an emotional crisis about a few stupid atheists. It doesn't make sense.
dale, you said "You've admitted that you are having emotional problems dealing with the atheists here. Maybe you need to take a break. Relax.
For the life of me, I can't understand why, if you are sure you are going to your heaven, why you would be having such an emotional crisis about a few stupid atheists. It doesn't make sense."
being frustrated is not having an emotional crisis.
Or don't you know?
that's quite reaching there.
Hey, Dale, maybe just the thought of a fellow human being under the wrath of God is a wee bit more than disconcerting? I think that would justify being stressed out over atheists and their willful stupidity. I stress over it all the time--praying daily for people's eyes to be opened to the truth so that they don't perish. Maybe you don't like it that I have so much compassion for you.
But then, maybe you LIKE the idea of burning in Hell? Somehow, I doubt that.
Allfired,
In regards to my 5:53 AM comment, I forgot to add that while atheism is not a religion, I do feel that I am a sect, for lack of a better word, in, and of, myself.
(there, that can of worms is sufficiently opened)
Joshua,
You said,
"I stress over it all the time--praying daily for people's eyes to be opened to the truth so that they don't perish."
Chill out lil buddy. I have been told by countless Christians that once you get to heaven, it won't bother you one bit even if your mother, father, brothers, sisters and friends are in hell. They say you won't even know it.
That is very logical explanation because heaven sure wouldn't be much fun if you could wach them all burning for eternity, would it? Hmmmm?
"Maybe you don't like it that I have so much compassion for you."
Indeed, I do! Why don't you come over and help me prune my fruit trees today?
I don't want to use a lot of “Christian-eeze”" lingo here, because too many false converts and atheists have heard it so much. So I'd like to attempt to make this very plain to understand. Please, atheists hear me out.
I would like to address a serious topic that atheists are getting confused here on this blog and in general everywhere else.
I do not think Atheists understand what false conversion is. They hear Christians here speak on this only to hit them with the “No True Scotsman Fallacy” argument.
But there is a huge misunderstanding from the atheists and false converts here about true and false conversion.
To atheists, Christianity is just a matter of adopting a set of philosophical “ideals”. To them, once a person adopts those certain philosophical beliefs they "get saved" or they say they are “born again”.
This is why the concept of false conversion makes no sense to an atheist. Because, they are in a way asking "how can you be false to the set of ideals you chose to live by?" I've heard this so many times from atheists.
For example, if I joined the “Red-Balloons club” it's because I adopt their philosophy of red balloons. It would seem that at any point, I could then decide to stop liking red balloons, and thus, get out of the club. You see, because, I've changed my philosophical ideas, I'm no longer part of that club. My philosophical ideas and the principles I chose to live my life by when I was in the "Red balloon Club" can be given up at any time, when I changed my mind.
The idea of a false convert cannot fit into this idea of Christianity as a philosophical agreement into a club. For how can I be in the "Red Balloon Club" if I secretly did not like red balloons or I was somehow false to my stated philosophical tenet of liking red balloons, that doesn't make any sense?
This idea of Christianity as sort of a "club" that someone "joins" when they a) believe in God, b) believe in Jesus, c) believe that they are a sinner, d) feel sorry for their sins, is a perversion of what genuine Christianity is.
Of course, genuine Christianity DOES subscribe to all those beliefs; however having those beliefs is not what CAUSES someone to become a Christian. Neither the holding of these beliefs nor church attendance nor baptism nor any other religious activity makes one a Christian.
Becoming what the Bible defines as "Born Again", or "Born from above", involves an intangible spiritual transaction that takes place supernaturally when one repents and places their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.
It is not a set of philosophical tenets. It is an actual, spiritual, rebirth. Where God takes out the heart of a human being and replaces it with a new heart that has new desires.
Now, when this takes place there is a life long change that evidences itself in what the Bible calls, the "fruit of repentance". IF you happen to think that repentance means feeling sorry for your sins, you're actually incorrect.
Of course we should feel sorry for our sins - cut to the heart. However, sorrow for sins is NOT repentance.
The Bible says "Your sorrow led you to repentance" and "repentance from acts". (2 Corinthians 7:9)(Hebrews 6:1)
Sorrow could be said to be a part of repentance, but this fruit of repentance that will be evident in the life of a genuine Christian displays itself in the specific turning away from godless activities, lusts, desires...etc.
Any person who claims to be a Christian and yet lacks this fruit of repentance that the Bible is talking about is actually no Christian at all. (Matt. 3:8) (John 3:3) (1 John 3:8,9)
This of course makes no sense to many atheists or false converts who view Christianity as a sort of philosophical club because they don't understand what must take place spiritually for a person to be a genuine Christian.
They believe anyone who spouts the philosophical tenets of the Christian faith, and says they adhere to them, must be a Christian.
This of course is completely false.
All Fired Up:
Red Balloon Club? You're a Nena fan, aren't you?
weemaryanne, what I said is nothing new. I'm not the only person who understands True/False conversion. The fact that you don't understand it is a result that the Church in general doesn't teach on it. It's not popular, though it was completely understood with the early Christians. You aren't really listening nor reading. Nor have you checked what I said with the Bible, as I see.
I didn't make that up, this is what Jesus taught and what Paul taught well over 2000 years ago. This concept of true and false conversion is very ancient, it's only that it's been forgotten by the present churches who favor themselves with the modern teaching that there is no absolute truth and that the use of the Law is totally forgotten.
Regarding Bush, I never considered him a Christian, ever.
Rufus, yes I remember Nena, I wouldn't call myself a fan though. Just something from memory (that 80's in me popping out).
Allfired,
You say,
"Becoming what the Bible defines as "Born Again", or "Born from above", involves an intangible spiritual transaction that takes place supernaturally when one repents and places their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.
It is not a set of philosophical tenets. It is an actual, spiritual, rebirth. Where God takes out the heart of a human being and replaces it with a new heart that has new desires."
Which means you are a "genuine" Chritian and all the rest of em are goin ta hell!
If this is all intangible, supernatural stuff, how do you know that it happens?
Allfiredup,
You said,
"This of course makes no sense to many atheists or false converts who view Christianity as a sort of philosophical club because they don't understand what must take place spiritually for a person to be a genuine Christian."
This whole scenario sounds like something that might have been written by highly superstitious people back in the bronze age middle east....Oh, it was, you say.
Now, if your God would grow back the limbs of an amputee, I'd say you got somethin'.
dale said "Which means you are a "genuine" Chritian and all the rest of em are goin ta hell!"
Dale why do you say this as if we want people in hell?
Haven't you been listening to what we are saying?
Why do you guys keep defaulting to that logic?
We do not want people to go to hell. I can't stress that enough.
If you refuse to understand, I can't help you.
I heard a thinking atheist say (and I paraphrase) "Since a Christian believes 'that Christ died for sinners to save them from their sins which lead them to hell', if Christians aren't at least telling people how to get away from that predicament, they would be the worst people of all." (youtube or google "interview with an atheist")
Though this guy is an atheist, he has stated so profoundly the precise reason why Christians SHOULD be witnessing.
I respect that. Because he understands at least how important it is for Christians to obey Christ's command to "Go into all the world" "preach the Gospel"
dale, for some reason those "people of the bronze age" as you like to call it have a better understanding of reality than you do.
And it looks like you've been reading a lot of "Why God doesn't heal amputee's too"
My wife's brother died of leukemia back in the 80's. I have another friend, half his wife's face became paralyzed over night; another friend, their 2 year old boy, they found out has leukemia. None of these people have rejected God because bad things happened to them, in fact they have and are enduring hardship with the help of the Lord.
Jesus NEVER promised life would be all happy and joy when one becomes genuinely saved from hell.
If you want to know about someone who knows the Lord and loves the Lord with all her heart despite what has happened to her, you need to look no further than Joni Eareckson Tada. She is a quadriplegic, and her testimony is powerful.
Horatio Spafford (1873) suffered two catastrophic events in his life, the great Chicago fire which ruined him, financially, and then the loss of all four of his daughters on the sea. He wrote "It is well with my soul" not because he was impervious to pain and suffering, but that God brought him through it. This is a hymn that you won't hear too much anymore in modern churches who would rather sing about "happy happy joy joy in Jesus."
"Though Satan should buffet, though trials should come,
Let this blest assurance control,
That Christ has regarded my helpless estate,
And hath shed His own blood for my soul.
My sin, oh, the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
Is nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more,
Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, O my soul!
For me, be it Christ, be it Christ hence to live:
If Jordan above me shall roll,
No pang shall be mine, for in death as in life
Thou wilt whisper Thy peace to my soul.
But, Lord, ‘tis for Thee, for Thy coming we wait,
The sky, not the grave, is our goal;
Oh trump of the angel! Oh voice of the Lord!
Blessèd hope, blessèd rest of my soul!
And Lord, haste the day when my faith shall be sight,
The clouds be rolled back as a scroll;
The trump shall resound, and the Lord shall descend,
Even so, it is well with my soul."
Horatio wrote this hymn as the ship he was traveling was going over the site of the disaster that took the lives of his daughter.
Yes there are those people who blame God for every ill.
That doesn't make God evil.
Every ill, every bad thing is a result of the curse that has been placed on this earth because of sin - mankind's sin.
God warned it would happen.
Man sinned anyway and has always continued to sin.
You have heard this over and over yet you continue to refuse to understand.
{{{Now, if your God would grow back the limbs of an amputee, I'd say you got somethin'.}}}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[REPLY]
What makes you think He hasn't?
I can't persoanlly name that event happening - but I have personally seen other miracles.
And who says physical healing is more significant than mental healing?
I have also personally witnessed that too.
Patti
Allfriedup,
You said,
"And it looks like you've been reading a lot of "Why God doesn't heal amputee's too"
No, I'm not "reading a lot of it."
I read it about three years ago one time. Actually, that does not figure into the calculus of my opinion of miracles.
There has never been a documented miracle. Period.
You may claim you have seen one, but there are natural explanations for everything.
You will now tell me that "this doctor said the healing had to be a miracle, etc." But that in no proof or evidence.
And that will be just like the bible; heresay.
By the way, please don't bore me with your stories of the miracles you observed. I will not believe one word of them.
Allfired,
You said,
"......in fact they have and are enduring hardship with the help of the Lord."
And most people in the world endure hardship without the help of "your" Lord, so what?
All Fired Up:
I just checked out the why doesn't God heal amputees site.
I hear Christians (not you; I don't know what you say about it) claim miraculous healings all the time. Ranging from hangnails to cancer. So I ask myself, out of the estimated ten million amputees on this planet, isn't there just one who is at least as deserving of a miracle as all of these others I hear about? Isn't there just one child who has lost its legs to a land mine who is as deserving? Not all amputees. Just one. And it would be documented. You'd have medical records, photos, X-rays, the child itself without its legs; then suddenly the child has its legs again. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jesus say something about if you truly have faith he'll give you what you want? Something like that?
" ... even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" Ephesians 2:5
Our faith itself (as well as genuine repentance) is a gift of God's grace. We have nothing to boast about. When we were dead in our sins God gave us spiritual life by the gospel. He used His Word, the way we are using it here, with those of you who are unbelievers. By the power of His Spirit He lifted us to a new life. He gave us eyes to see & ears to hear the truth. We cannot take the credit.
Acts 15:11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus ..."
By virtue of our union with Christ, by GRACE (there is that word again) we belong to Him. Eph 2:1 explains that we were once like those of you who do not believe. We were alienated from the life of God and destitute of the Spirit. (Eph 4:18,19)
Unless you are vivified, you will remain dead in your trespasses & sins.
There was a time when we were like you. We didn't want to hear these things from the ones who cared enough about us to share them. But now we are so grateful that they took the trouble & endured our laughter & reproach.
If you come to believe, you will be glad that we took the time with you too.
But, if no one ever believed from our testimony, Jesus Christ still deserves to be lifted up, honored & praised.
dale,
Thank you for your kind words.
That song you mentioned is indeed a good reflection... one of my favorite lines of that song is:
"If I swallow anything evil
Put your finger down my throat
And if I shiver, please give me a blanket
Keep me warm, let me wear your coat."
It reflects the desperation some of us, perhaps many of us, have experienced.
You said "I would like very much to hear more about your spirituality and how you approach it."
In my previous post, I wrote:
"I simply ask for humility; a recognition of ourselves as one being no better than another, doing our best to act in love toward one another. It is in love for one another that we will not harm each other, that we will not act in pride, that we will see the truth. We live in a broken, damaged, screwed-up world and it’s going to be impossible to see such a thing happen.
But, we can try. We can hope. By the grace of God we will survive."
That is how I approach life. Knowing who I am, knowing that I am not good, knowing that I cannot earn my way to Heaven, but doing my best to love those around me. I'm not a doormat, I'm not perfect, I'm not much of anything other than a human being living with other human beings on this very temporal earth. The Bible is my guide, it's words are rich with meaning. I think that too many have tried to interpret the Bible and create doctrines and beliefs that may not necessarily be true. I don't get too deep into that, because it's truly fruitless to argue those points. I do not want to stray away from the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus. I will not use many words to "preach", but want instead for my life to be used to serve and love others in a way that the reality of Christ Jesus cannot be denied.
Songofthesadbird,
If I may, I am slightly sad that you are a "sad bird," yet I am hearing a yearning desire to move beyond the "sad" stage. I hope that you do. Very much.
You go on to say,in respose the the meaning of the song,
"It reflects the desperation some of us, perhaps many of us, have experienced."
Whew! Been there, did that....Might be there again! If you haven't had a desperate moment, you can't be human! But, the agony of the moment can be verrrrry trying. Yet we survived it!
Having said all that, I want to re-post your money quote, even as I see you using the bible as one of your sources; that post was well thought out and well written and I appreciate your candidness.
Thanks, /d
P.S. Ray, I want to say that I am a bit worried about you...Are you OK? This is no kidding.../d
@allfiredup
"Becoming what the Bible defines as "Born Again", or "Born from above", involves an intangible spiritual transaction that takes place supernaturally when one repents and places their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.
It is not a set of philosophical tenets. It is an actual, spiritual, rebirth. Where God takes out the heart of a human being and replaces it with a new heart that has new desires."
Ahh, so you convince yourself that this supernatural event takes place, and you feel warm and good inside because you feel part of something bigger than yourself, something that promises to give you life eternal. Who wouldn't want that?? Look, just because you convince yourself of this doesn't make your conversion true and someone else's false, if they so choose to reject it. What does it mean to say, "spiritual rebirth"? Getting "a new heart"? What exactly is an "intangible spiritual transaction" and how can you be so sure that it happened? Oh, you convinced yourself.
From Dale: "Chill out lil buddy. I have been told by countless Christians that once you get to heaven, it won't bother you one bit even if your mother, father, brothers, sisters and friends are in hell. They say you won't even know it.
That is very logical explanation because heaven sure wouldn't be much fun if you could wach them all burning for eternity, would it? Hmmmm?"
Thank you for finally admitting to the logic of a Christian position.
Actually, I stress about it here and now. I probably won't be stressing about it then, because it wouldn't do any good anymore: God's love would no longer be available to you, and, therefore, neither would mine.
So, my advice to you is, that you take my love--and God's--while you still have a chance.
@ Joshua
I stress over it all the time--praying daily for people's eyes to be opened to the truth so that they don't perish.
Is God invisible? Yes
Is Hell invisible? Yes
Is the afterlife invisible? Yes
So is it logical to stress about an invisible deity punishing people in an invisible Hell in an invisible afterlife?
What I was trying to do above is a Cognitative Behavioral Therapy intervention which aims to break the patient away from fantasy (where the stress usually exists) and back into reality.
Pvblivs said... 1believer: Right here, right now, it is Ray who is calling atheists fools. He probably thinks the same of all non-believers. Whoever wrote the bible also made the same claim (and it was still prideful.) Your attribution, however, is in dispute.
1believer says: No, Ray is also quoting GOD'S WORD. It is not MY attribution. Foolishness for not believing is mentioned many times in the Bible, in addition to the quote I used. Another one goes, "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." -1Corinthians 1:18. Here are more: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." -1Corinthians 2:14 "For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength." -1Corinthians 1:25
If the truth hurts....
How to be a Christian fundie:
1) Build an Atheist strawman.
2) Kick it over.
3) Done.
Oh, and ignorw every evidence against god, no matter how conclusive it is!
If you're having so much trouble finding someone who'll civilly debate you, I'd be glad.
"1) Refute everything in the Bible because men wrote it.
2) Believe and quote other writings of men to prove that the Bible is wrong.
3) Completely ignore the inconsistency between steps 1 & 2."
No, there's a difference. Men declaring ridiculous things is much more easily refutable than men saying that these things could not be possible.
"4) Call yourself a “freethinker” and “open minded” but don’t practice such virtues when it comes to Christianity."
The general situation in which this occurs is when a Christian cites the Bible as evidence of the Bible.
"5) Try to laugh out loud every time a Christian makes a statement about what they believe even if you don’t think it’s really that funny. This helps avoid a “serious” conversation."
I don't know who you're talking to, but most atheists I know are much more civil. One person in a demographic being offensive does not make them all offensive people.
"6) Always bring up Zeus, Allah, and Santa Claus to prove that if you must believe in one God then you have to believe in all of them otherwise it’s just not fair."
Well, yeah. What justification could there be for one is right and all the others most be wrong.
"7) When referring to the Bible use the word “myth” as often as possible and call believers whatever names you want because the goal is to frustrate the Christian so that his sinful nature comes out and he gets angry and then you can call him a hypocrite."
See my response to point 5.
"8) Set your own moral standards very very very low so that you’ll never look like a hypocrite yourself. The lower the better."
First of all, no. Religion should have nothing to do with morals. Atheists are aware of this. Second of all, how could this possibly lead to hypocrisy. That I didn't get at all.
"9) Never answer a question directly but quickly change the subject to make a completely different point. If you’re asked why you keep changing the subject just repeat this step as necessary.
10) Be as argumentative, loud, sarcastic and verbal as possible – there is no need to make sense or use logic in your arguments – just keep arguing."
See response to 5. This happens with Christians too you know?
"11) Use words like “strawman,” “ad hominem,” “fallacy,” “red herring” and non sequiturs” against every argument whether you understand those terms or not."
These terms are not used for every argument, only arguments that prompt them. I will admit that there are circumstances where atheists won't actually know what these mean, but again, this does not apply to all atheists.
"12) Claim that atheism is rooted in “common sense” even though less than 10% of the human population claim to be atheists."
I'm pretty sure we've already determined that common sense isn't actually common. Moreover, just because your opinion isn't popular does not mean it is invalid. Take for example slavery in southern America in the antebellum.
"13) Reject all notions of faith even though you must put your faith in pilots, cars, food, doctors, evolution, and the next chair that you sit in."
This is faith based on evidence. The common argument I get, though you may refute this, is that faith is belief without evidence.
"14) Always ask for evidence for God but never accept anything presented to you. At the end of a discussion remind them that all you needed was some evidence for God."
Generally the evidence is either circular such as the Bible saying that people will say you are wrong as proof the Bible is right, disprovable such as the dimensions of the Ark when such a boat could not float, or no-substantial like Pascal's Wager.
"15) Quote only the Bible verses that make God look mean and unfair."
First of all, this is not true. There are also citations of where the Bible contradicts itself.
"16) Talk about being a good person remembering that you are allowed to define good however you would like because there is no objective moral standard."
That doesn't make any sense. If you are morally good in relation to what you might have done in a situation you are still a good person. Do you understand relativity?
"17) Say that you have read the Bible and that you understand what it teaches whether this is true or not."
Once again, see response to 5. Not all atheists do this, even though it is common.
"18) Only pick on Christians – you don’t want to get killed in a Jihad. However, be sure to say that there is no difference between Radical Muslims and Fundamentalist Christians."
The first part of this I can agree with you on. The most likely rationale is simply how common Christianity is in the world. While I can't speak surely, I would assume that in regions where Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. are the commonplace they would take that role. The second part about radicals and fundamentalists I think once again falls under the response to 5. Though truly I think that the argument you refer to is wrong and don't think I've ever actually heard this.
"19) Always use the crusades to make the point above."
It shows that religion can lead to these problems. Also take Hitler using Christianity to incite morale, bloody affairs in the Reformation, any aggressive factions of religious basis such as the Islamic aggressors of today. Though only using the Crusades for this argument is slightly flawed when there are so many to truly chose from.
"20) Remember that you are looking for faults in other worldviews not trying to defend your own – do not try to prove atheism! Remember, it’s much easier to destroy than build up."
It falls on those making the assertion to prove themselves.
"21) Make the claim that you only have one life and don’t want to waste it on religion."
Yes.
"22) If your conscience begins to bother you because of moral guilt you can numb it with drugs, alcohol, sex, or pride. You can give up the first three but never give up your pride."
This has nothing to do with atheists, this is a human condition. Certainly you aren't implying all atheists feel guilty simply for being an atheist.
"23) Everyday feel free to thank God that you’re an atheist – just in case."
Pascal's Wager? While yes, you could do this but I seriously don't think most atheists do. Moreover it's seriously not truly part of being an atheist. Of course, the only real thing needed for being an atheist is the belief there is no deity, nothing else.
Allfiredup makes some wonderful points. :)
Nobody ever says on their death bed - "I wish I had been a better atheist."
God bless you!
Happy Atheist Day Ray! LOL!
We praise God for you brother!
Patrick Burwell, OnlyJesusSaves.com
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