Atheist Central -- Ray Comfort’s Blog

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools..." (Romans 1:20-22).
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart"
(Matthew 5:27-28).
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Monday, June 2, 2008

The Origin of the Universe

“In the beginning”...was God, or the universe? Many people refuse to believe in God because they can’t fathom how an entity could be eternal. Yet scientists used to teach that the universe itself was eternal—it just always was—and atheists were content to believe that. So if you believe it is possible for something to be eternal (such as the universe), to be logically consistent you would also have to admit it’s possible that there is an infinite, omnipotent Being who is eternal.

These days, science has proven that the universe had a beginning. To the creationists’ claim that the universe was begun by God, atheists naturally ask, “Then who made God?” It’s a very logical question. According to the Law of Cause and Effect, every effect must have a cause. In other words, everything that happens has a catalyst; everything that came into being has something that caused it. Things don’t just happen by themselves.

Since the evidence proves that the universe is not eternal, scientists say it began in an event known as the Big Bang. The Big Bang theory claims that “nothing” suddenly became time, space, matter, and energy, forming a vast, complex, orderly universe composed of over 100 billion galaxies and containing an estimated trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion tons of matter. Now scientists have an even greater dilemma: Where did the initial matter come from? How could something come from nowhere, by itself? Second, what caused it to go “bang”? What was the catalyst that sent the particles flying?

Famed cosmologist Andrei Linde, professor of Physics at Stanford University, is honest about the evolutionists’ dilemma:

"The first, and main, problem is the very existence of the big bang. One may wonder, what came before? If space-time did not exist then, how could everything appear from nothing? What arose first? The universe or the laws determining its evolution? Explaining this initial singularity—where and when it all began—still remains the most intractable problem of modern cosmology."

Remember, if a Coke can coming into existence by itself is obvious nonsense, why is the Big Bang theory any more “scientific”?

Searching for answers, scientists recently announced that they may have the puzzle pieces to the fundamental mystery of the universe. Using a NASA telescope, they think they’ve figured out the cosmic question of where we came from. Their conclusion? According to Ciska Markwick-Kemper of the University of Manchester in England, “In the end, everything comes from space dust...that was belched from dying stars” about 8 billion light-years from here.

The dilemma is, no matter how far away or how long ago scientists estimate the very first dust particle came from, the logical question remains: Then where did that dust come from?

It’s unavoidable—at some point, you’re forced to conclude that there must be an uncaused cause (a “First Cause”) that brought everything else into being. This conclusion agrees with logic, reason, and scientific laws. In all of history, there has never been an instance of anything spontaneously appearing out of nowhere. Something being created from nothing is contrary to all known science.

In short, the evolutionary view cannot offer a logical, scientific explanation for either the origin or the complexity of the universe. There are only two choices: Either no one created everything out of nothing, or Someone—an intelligent, omnipotent, eternal First Cause—created everything out of nothing. Which makes more sense?

Adapted from How to Know God Exists (Bridge-Logos).

154 comments:

Nick said...

Ray,

You say that science has proven that the universe had a beginning. That proof is part of Big Bang theory, which you routinely mock. Yet here you try to use it as a proof that theism is correct.

Connect the dots.

flinging dust said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Nick said...

Ray said:

Remember, if a Coke can coming into existence by itself is obvious nonsense, why is the Big Bang theory any more “scientific”?

Because a Coke can and the universe are a wee bit different types of things, right?

If we follow your argument by analogy, then it is impossible that a baby could form by cellular duplication. After all, Coke cans are made in factories with assembly lines, so everything in the universe must work that way. Babies are assembled on production lines.

ex-atheist said...

Nick said...
"Ray said:

Remember, if a Coke can coming into existence by itself is obvious nonsense, why is the Big Bang theory any more “scientific”?

Because a Coke can and the universe are a wee bit different types of things, right?

If we follow your argument by analogy, then it is impossible that a baby could form by cellular duplication. After all, Coke cans are made in factories with assembly lines, so everything in the universe must work that way. Babies are assembled on production lines."
______

The fact that cellular duplication is a billion times more complicated than any human production line only helps the argument that it couldn't have happened by chance, without a cause, and without a purpose. And haven't you see those "cell" videos - your entire body is the most complicated assembly line in the world. Do you really believe we were burped out of an indifferent, unintelligent, amoral ball of eternal dust – or nothingness?

NaFa said...

From the good folks at Fermilab...

"Empty space, we have discovered, is actually not empty at all. Quantum effects constantly produce particles and antiparticles "out of nothing," only to have them disappear few moments later."

get_education said...

First, nobody said there was nothing previous to the Big Bang. All matter was concentrated ... yes, lots of problems, and I will not pretend to understand them all. I have not studied it.

Second, Big bang is not evolution of the species, and nothing in this statements invalidates evolution itself.

However, let me paraphrase one of my previous posts:

Since somebody cannot comprehend a universe with such a beginning (Big Bang), with no time as we perceive it, because we have many questions, the ONLY possible LOGICAL solution is an even more incomprehensible, timeless, eternal and very complex all powerful being. Then say that entity did it.

Again, what a straightforward logic, create something you can understand even less than the universe something that escapes time and eternity, while you do not allow the universe to escape such things "because it does not make sense," (yet this being escaping the laws does make sense because it is even more incomprehensible) and voila! Problem solved!

I wonder how I did not think of that. (yep, I know, instead of looking at the faulty logic of your own statements you guys will concentrate on this little last sentence, right? Or the one where I say I have not studied it? Take your pick!)

ShiVeR said...

How did the universe come to be what it is now? Here's how, verse 1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The Hebrews had no word for universe. They had a phrase for universe and the phrase for universe that the Hebrews used was the heavens and the earth, it simply means the universe. In the beginning God created, bara, ex nihilo. out of nothing, the universe with no prior existing matter and no prior existing energy...God created the entire universe.



Now God had no origin. That's why in Exodus 3:14 He says, "I am that I am," He's the eternal one. He, the eternal one, was not always the creator, but at some point in eternity He became the creator.

And when did He create? He created in six days about 6000 years ago, maybe a little more than that, but something certainly under ten thousand and closer to six thousand.

In Revelation 4:11 it says, "Worthy art Thou, our Lord, and our God, to receive glory and honor and power for Thou didst create all things and because of Thy will they existed and were created." I told you He did it because He wanted to. He did it because He wanted to do it. And He desired to do it for the very reason that eternally in His presence He will be praised and glorified for this immense display of creative power which puts His majesty and His nature on display. In Isaiah 43 verse 7, Isaiah 43 verse 20 He says, "I did it for My glory...I did it for My glory."



And within this creation He made man. And to take it one step beyond, He not only did it to display His glorious great massive intelligence, massive power, massive wisdom, massive love of beauty and complexity and yet order and systematization He's displaying so much about His nature in the creation. But also in the creation He was given the opportunity by virtue of the creation of man to display something He would have not otherwise be able to display, and that is His grace and His mercy. And so He did it to put His glory on display, the glory of His creation and the glory of His redemption.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. By the way, "in the beginning" launches a previous non-existent reality...time. It didn't exist until God created it. At a certain point in eternity, God spoke the universe into existence including time...time as well as space and matter is a creature and servant of God who made them.




Time is God's creature. And time provided the proper framework for creation...day one through day six. Time is not absolute, space is not absolute, and matter is not absolute. And time and space and matter as we know them will be uncreated. Before the material realm existed, before there was matter in space, there couldn't be time.

There are three principles basic to science: matter, energy, and the space-time continuum. Science tells us that none of the three can exist without the other two; therefore all three must have existed from the beginning of the universe. Note that Genesis 1:1 mentions all three: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

From the Grace to You website by John MacArthur search under {Is the Bible Reliable? Science and Scripture} & {Battle for the Beginning}

Lauren said...

the ONLY possible LOGICAL solution is an even more incomprehensible, timeless, eternal and very complex all powerful being.

Well why not? We have been telling you about our experiences with God and how he has saved us. You and science have no explaination for it, and yet you won't listen to our experiences at the same time. Maybe we have something to share with you...

But, no, that would mean believing in *gasp* God. And we can't have that now can we?

erikloza said...

Get_education,

I think it does sound logical to believe in a Creator that we cannot completely comprehend, when you consider that He created the universe. If you could understand the complexity of the cosmos, and actually recreate it, then the full glory/mind/being of God might be more comprehensible.

I've also been thinking about how it is logical to believe that concepts like love, loyalty, self-control and joy actually found their source in a Being who epitomizes these concepts. At the same time, these concepts' opposites correspond to that which is opposed to the Creator. That sounds logical to me. In earthly terms, a son is like his father. In broader terms, the created is--in ways--like his Creator.

To say that the above emotions and qualities--along with all of the notions found in the most complex writings in history--do not have a source, but just 'are' or emerged through evolution, natural selection, etc......does that make more sense?

andrew w. said...

okay, if i cannot beat the big bang crowd, i am just going to have to join them!!!

what then was our Big Fuse and who was the Big Ignitor so that i am learned on this new topic???

sarcasm o...nahhh, i'm gonna leave it on tonight...andrew w.

forgiven37 said...

You guys have talked about the "big bang" for years and now your going to change your argument again?

NaFa said...

From the good folks at Fermilab...

"Empty space, we have discovered, is actually not empty at all. Quantum effects constantly produce particles and antiparticles "out of nothing," only to have them disappear few moments later."

Wait,wait,this just in from THE DEPARTMENT OF ETERNAL AFFAIRS. Yes it is true !!!! God created the universe and all that is in it.

You see this is and always has been the Christians stance. We have something more reliable than the science community that keep changing their minds. The Word of the Living God !

forgiven37 said...

get_education said...

First, nobody said there was nothing previous to the Big Bang. All matter was concentrated ... yes, lots of problems, and I will not pretend to understand them all. I have not studied it.

Really get_education ?
First, nobody said there was nothing previous to the Big Bang ?

Here is a little something from a science website on the "big bang theory".


Big Bang Theory - The Premise
The Big Bang theory is an effort to explain what happened at the very beginning of our universe. Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning. Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe. The big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened during and after that moment.


Did you notice the line " Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning.

your theory is and always has been full of holes. Turn to GOD before it is to late.

thanks for your time.

Lelouch said...

This is from "physics of the impossible," by Michio Kaku (one awesome dude):

"Andrei Linde of Stanford University, one of the co-creators of the inflationary universe idea, says that if we can create baby universes, then "maybe it's time we redefine God as something more sophisticated than just the creator of the universe."

Creating a new universe is not something that is outside the laws of physics, and a highly advanced civilization should be capable of performing such an act. So, I agree with Linde, its time you all stop thinking so highly of God's creation.

you can't even prove it was your God that did it, after all, it is equally possible that no intelligence caused the event. And our universe has zero net energy, so technically, it's a perfect free lunch.

Look up the theories of higher dimensions, multiverses, and quantum parallel universes, its good reading. And if we someday prove that these other universes exist, then you religious will just have to push God back to that next step, that is, He had to create the sea of countless universes.

But I'll leave you all with the theory of evolution of universes:

"In the Guth/Fahri picture, an advanced civilization can create a baby universe, but the physical constants (e.g., the mass of the electron and proton and the strengths of the four forces) are the same. But what if an advanced civilization could create baby universes that differ slightly in their fundamental constants? Then the baby universes would be able to "evolve" with time, with each generation of baby universes being slightly different from the previous generation.

If we consider the fundamental constants to be the DNA of a universe, it means that intelligent life might be able to create baby universes with slightly different DNA. Eventually, universes would evolve, and the universes that proliferated would be those that had the best "DNA" that allow for the flourishing of intelligent life. Physicist Edward Harrison, building on a previous idea by Lee Smolin, has proposed a "natural selection" among universes. The universes that dominate the multiverse are precisely those that have the best DNA, which is compatible with creating advanced civilizations, which in turn create more baby universes. "Survival of the fittest" simply means survival of the universes that are most favorable to producing advanced civilizations.

If this picture is correct, it would explain why the fundamental constants of the universe are "fine-tuned" to allow for life. It simply means that universes with desirable fundamental constants compatible with life are the ones that proliferate in the multiverse." -Michio Kaku

Food for thought.

flinging dust said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Paul Brown said...

Okay, I'm going to deal with those quotes in reverse order for reasons that will rapidly become clear:

So, Dr. Kemper and the "space dust"; Dr. Ciska Kemper is an expert in, amongst other fields, Astromineralogy and the Formation and Evolution of Dust in Galaxies (not to be confused with biological evolution - different processes). I didn't find any reference particularly to the distance of the formation of the dust that came to form our solar system and I would be very interested to know how she knew this distance if she had made such claims, but she does study the dust formation in distant stars since that gives us a good insight into how the dust that came to be us was formed. As to "where did that dust come from", the answer is in the previous paragraph - it came from the nuclear reactions within stars where lighter elements combine into heavier ones, much like Hydrogen combines to form Helium in our own sun. The study of Astromineralogy does not pretend to explain the origins of the Big Bang, as your text implies, but studies effects that came after, in much the same way that American History does not seek to explain the rise and fall of the Roman Empire. Cart and horse, Ray, cart and horse.

So on to Professor Linde; he does indeed say,
"One of the most distressing questions facing cosmologists is whether anything existed before t = 0; if not, then where did the universe come from? The birth and death of the universe, like the birth and death of a human being, is one of the most worrisome problems facing not just cosmologists, but all of contemporary science."
A.D. Linde, PARTICLE PHYSICS AND INFLATIONARY COSMOLOGY (Harwood Academic Publishers, Chur, Switzerland 1990)

He then spends the next 200+ pages explaining in some considerable detail his theory of the answer to that question. Now the physics in his paper goes above even my head, since I only studied physics to undergraduate level and I didn't specialise in cosmology, but to suggest that nobody has an answer to this question is simply misrepresentation (or, if you prefer, bearing false witness). Now I should, in the interests of intellectual honesty (look that up, Ray) point out that Professor Linde's theory is, in fact, a theorum in that it has not been sufficiently tested and is one of many theora that attempt to explain the "origins" of the early universe and, much like abiogenesis, it is possible that we may never know which one, if any, is the true story, but so far no need has been found for a creator to start the whole thing. This does not prove that a creator didn't start the universe, indeed a creator could've created the universe last Wednesday complete with all of us in place with memories of past events that never occurred and evidence of a history that we don't have, but whilst that is possible we have no evidence to suggest that it is in any way probable and so we quite rightly discount it.
The same principle applies to your claimed creator - unless and until we find some kind of evidence of his/her/its existence we will work on the assumption that they are not there.

Rob Penn said...

Big Bang =/= evolution.


Having said that, I fully agree with everything else. ^_^

Rob Penn said...

@ get education:

Again, what a straightforward logic, create something you can understand even less than the universe something that escapes time and eternity, while you do not allow the universe to escape such things "because it does not make sense," (yet this being escaping the laws does make sense because it is even more incomprehensible) and voila! Problem solved!


Why would God have to be bound to the laws of physics?

C3P0R2D2 said...

Ex-atheist and Ray,

I know you both love this Coke can evolution analogy. I have one question, Have you ever seen 2 coke can's copulate and produce baby cans? If so can you send me a breeding pair? If you come to the conclusion that coke cans don't breed, then why do you try to use them as an analog for evolution? Are you that simple or are you counting on the fact that most of your readers are stupid enough to think this is a good argument? I have read your book 'How to know God exists' and just about all you can come up with are these silly 'non-biological' examples. Coke cans, cars, planes, paintings etc.
To make it real simple for you I'll explain it to you. Evolution only works if something can reproduce, and they can pass information from the parent to the child. Since cars , cans planes and paintings don't reproduce it's plain stupid to use them as examples for evolution.

C3P0R2D2 said...

One thing I noticed in you newest post, when you talk about science, you use word like 'proven', when you talk about the creationist side, you use words like 'claim'. I'm glad you finally see that creationism is just an idea without any evidence. So claiming to know the truth is all you can do.

Oh and Ray, saying things like 'In short, the evolutionary view cannot offer a logical, scientific explanation for either the origin or the complexity of the universe.' Makes no sense at all. Evolution doesn't try to explain the beginning of the universe. That's another field of science.

Powersgrandma said...

I notice that the backers of all these scientific "theories" were not around when those "theories" supposedly were actually happening.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.

The Celtic Chimp said...

Ray,

Since the evidence proves that the universe is not eternal, scientists say it began in an event known as the Big Bang. The Big Bang theory claims that “nothing” suddenly became time, space, matter, and energy, forming a vast, complex, orderly universe composed of over 100 billion galaxies and containing an estimated trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion tons of matter

For the very last time, the big bang theory does not suggest that all the matter in the universe just popped into being. It does not suggest this. One last time. It does NOT posit something from nothing. The matter was already there compressed into to a point of unimaginable density and temperature. How the matter got there or what, if anything was going on before the big bang remains a mystery.

As for God being eternal, he would suffer from the same problem as any other existant entity. He would never reach this point in time. The usual response to this is to jump in with the wild and unfounded assertion that God is outside of time somehow. If God can be, then so can any inaminate matter that sparked the universe.

There may be, and if history is anything to go by there probably is, layers of physical laws we haven't even yet theorised about which will one day shed light on the mystery.

Ray, please pay attention now. No ones knows what started the universe, no one knows what seeded the big bang. You don't know either. You read an answer in an ancient storybook. A childish and simplistic, counter to common sense, answer. You bought that answer hook, line and sinker. Don't be angry with us Atheists for not being so gullible.
You believe that the answer to how all of this complex matter and life originated is that an unimaginably complex entity just happed to already be there....somehow (lets not look too closely at that). I'm sure this seems logical to you Ray but it isn't.

Aratos said...

@nick: "If we follow your argument by analogy, then it is impossible that a baby could form by cellular duplication. After all, Coke cans are made in factories with assembly lines, so everything in the universe must work that way. Babies are assembled on production lines."

You mean you've never stopped and said, "hang on, women have little human factories inside them! AWESOME!"?


Ok, so I'm a geek...

Chris said...

Of course, evolution is not the big bang. They're completely different things.

And, let's for the moment assume that there was an uncaused first cause (which is not the only option).

Ray said:
"Either no one created everything out of nothing, or Someone—an intelligent, omnipotent, eternal First Cause—created everything out of nothing. Which makes more sense?"

Ray, how did you get from some cause being required, to that cause being intelligent, omnipotent, eternal ? Where's the logic here ? You're just inventing unnecessary attributes out of thin air.

Why should't the first cause be simple, mechanical, random, like the bing bang itself ?

dale said...

And all that niggling just to say that no one knows the nature of the universe before the big bang.

That is the most exquisite mystery in the universe.

People love to credit mysteries to supernatural beings.

Even the Crockaduck knows that.

NaFa said...

Forgiven37,

My post was meant to counter Ray's incorrect claim that...

"In all of history, there has never been an instance of anything spontaneously appearing out of nowhere. Something being created from nothing is contrary to all known science."

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

@Lelouch

Michio Kaku is awesome! ;)
Neil deGrasse Tyson is another great pysicist/teacher for anybody interested in checking out more about these topics.

dale said...

Let's all say it together now,
1-2-3-
We Don't Know.

Very good!

Rev. BigDumbChimp said...

Searching for answers, scientists recently announced that they may have the puzzle pieces to the fundamental mystery of the universe. Using a NASA telescope, they think they've figured out the cosmic question of where we came from. Their conclusion? According to Ciska Markwick-Kemper of the University of Manchester in England, "In the end, everything comes from space dust...that was belched from dying stars" about 8 billion light-years from here.

Ray, you REALLY need to work on your reading comprehension. Go back and re-read about Dr. Markwick-Kemper. Her finding is not at all what you suggest. It is no surprise to me you either couldn't understand what you read or that you are flat out distorting it, that is par for the course for you.

captain howdy said...

@Ray--

[Photo]“In the beginning”...was God, or the universe? Many people refuse to believe in God because they can’t fathom how an entity could be eternal. Yet scientists used to teach that the universe itself was eternal—it just always was—and atheists were content to believe that. So if you believe it is possible for something to be eternal (such as the universe), to be logically consistent you would also have to admit it’s possible that there is an infinite, omnipotent Being who is eternal.




I don't see how you figure that. If it's a question of which existed for all eternity--the spiritual or matter/energy--then there's no question. Matter and energy can be shown to exist, but the spiritual is a hypothesis, with no direct evidence to support it.

It's no contest.

captain howdy said...

powersgrandma said--

I notice that the backers of all these scientific "theories" were not around when those "theories" supposedly were actually happening.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.


Oh, but you were there when God just 'poofed' everything into existence 6000 years ago?

Terry said...

Open your Bibles to the first chapter and the answers are there!

This is the Truth of the Matter!

Genesis 1:1-31

"1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.


2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.


3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.


4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.


5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.


6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.”


7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.


8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.


9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.



10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.



11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so.



12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.


13 So the evening and the morning were the third day.



14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;



15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so.



16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.



17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,



18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.


19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.



20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”



21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.


22 And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”



23 So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.



24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so.



25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.



26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[b] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”


27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.


28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”



29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.



30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so.



31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
evidence-bible.blogspot

John Doyle said...

@Ray
Remember, if a Coke can coming into existence by itself is obvious nonsense, why is the Big Bang theory any more “scientific”?

Maybe because the Big Bang theory is based on observations, measurements, mathematics and physics, while the Coke Can theory is just a story that you dreamt up?

Terry said...

@ chris, (aka chrisalmond)

I see you are showing your 'true' colors on the side of the evolutionists.

Thank you for being truthful with us at this time.

If you read it more closely ( the post ), you will see that Ray is referring to the infamous "Domino Effect".

Even if you use the "Domino Effect" you still need to identify a "force" from another realm. There is a beginning to this universe.

A being that is "infinite", that defies time and space, beyond our wildest imaginations. An entity that exists in another dimension.

" The idea of another dimension - or MORE than one other dimension - has been theorized for many years, and is a cornerstone of many religions. Indeed, even Albert Einstein speculated about the possibility of the existence of a parallel universe."

'Portals' would also explain paranormal activity in this realm.

It would explain 'cold spots' and energy drains in this universe.

Perhaps it would explain 'black holes'. Those entities pass back and forth thru 'portals'. We haven't even discussed other entities like 'angels' and their purpose in this universe.

God ( the eternal being ) decided to bring this universe into existence.

The Book of Genesis puts it
in the simplest terms for us to understand with our fleshly minds.

Genesis 1:3

3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Tinina Marie said...

It seems that on every post that Mr. Comfort submit, we end up back at the evolution question. The non-believers who visit this blog, will present their evidence to refute Mr. Comfort by using many different reference materials.

What you are not understanding is this: Followers of Christ do not need reference materials. We don't need source documents, research papers or books. We have 1 book that settles it all. I am sure you have heard of it: The Bible.

Surprising, Right? I don't need to go and look at the assumptions that a human has made. I can go directly to the book that is the Word of God.

In a way it seems as if the non-believers are trying to convince themselves of their own reasonings. because I am 100% sure that all true converts who read this blog is not convinced. What you don't realize is that once a person is a true convert to Christ there is no way he can turn his back him. It is physically and spiritually impossible for a true convert to turn away from God.

For information on what a true convert is, please visit Mr. Comfort's website.

Nick said...

Terry wrote:

2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.


3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.


Look at how soon in the book embarrassing blunders appear in the Bible.

It says that light came after the Earth was created. But light comes from the Sun, and if the Sun had not been around first, the Earth would not have been in the gravitational range of any sufficiently large body and would have been dislocated in space.

The sun came first.

Here the Bible is faced with a 50/50 proposition--Did the Earth or Sun come first?--and it gets the answer wrong.

Pretty pathetic, eh?

Nick said...

Ray wrote:

In all of history, there has never been an instance of anything spontaneously appearing out of nowhere.

It's nice that you are admitting that the idea that a fully formed adult man poofing into existence is nonsesnse. The idea that a rib could instantly become a woman is likewise nonsensical.

The concept of evolution only requires that creatures can reproduce and pass on traits, and that this process creates variations in the offspring.

This understanding of reproduction is well known, and it is the basis for evolution.

dale said...

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;..."

So, we look like God.

"Acording to to "our" likeness."
Must have been some other God(s)around at the time.

La Reine said...

In elementary school, I used to wonder if God just snapped His fingers and Wham! Big Bang.
As for evolution, I figured, the Bible said a year was like a day to God, and a day a year. So for Someone who could be everywhere all the time - creating all the life on the planet must not have been a big deal.


.....I've changed some of my views and held on to others. But I'd just like to say that if you're in a fire, disregarding the fact that its there will not save you from being burned, just as not understanding air doesn't stop a child from breathing.

-I'd like to put a link, but since I can't, I'll just suggest that people should check out the Chick site.

Jason said...

So basically you're saying, "Everything must have a cause. Therefore, not everything has a cause."

I guess I finally understand.

The Doctor said...

What makes any of the 'Christians' here believe that they are using the correct interpretation of scripture?

Please answer by citing the authority, institution or role model that influenced your decision.

Thank you.

Jason said...

erikloza said:

I think it does sound logical to believe in a Creator that we cannot completely comprehend, when you consider that He created the universe.

Just like it sounds logical that I am the transformer known as Bumblebee, when you consider the fact that I am a car that can get up and walk.

David W. Irish said...

Yet another incident of Ray shooting his mouth off about stuff that he knows next to nothing about, and inconsistantly using and mocking the Big Bang theory -- calling it proof the Universe had a beginning (therefore God did it) and mocking the Big Bang Theory in the same breath.

The inconsistancy of the facts that Ray makes up is evidence that his belief system is unintelligible. It's a collection of ever-changing facts that he appropriates to serve his agenda, or discard when it doesn't serve his agenda.

Jason said...

forgiven37 said:

You guys have talked about the "big bang" for years and now your going to change your argument again?

You do realize that scientists don't claim things just for the heck of it, right? If new evidence comes in that contradicts the status quo, the status quo has to change. Seriously, this is baby logic.

NaFa said...

From the good folks at Fermilab...

"Empty space, we have discovered, is actually not empty at all. Quantum effects constantly produce particles and antiparticles "out of nothing," only to have them disappear few moments later."

Wait,wait,this just in from THE DEPARTMENT OF ETERNAL AFFAIRS. Yes it is true !!!! God created the universe and all that is in it.


Oh wait hahaha I thought you were about to say something that make sense! Do they give out prizes for the most nonsensical non-sequitors? I promise to vote for you!

You see this is and always has been the Christians stance. We have something more reliable than the science community that keep changing their minds. The Word of the Living God !

You know, when I was a little boy I somehow got the notion that at some point in the future, both my mother and I would turn into little girls. As I grew up, I encountered a lot of evidence that would convince any scientifically minded person that I was incorrect. However, I did not change my mind about this, and although it has never happened in the history of the earth, and there is no plausible mechanism to make this happen, I still believe that someday soon my mother and I will morph into little girls. I know it's really going to happen because I have never changed my mind on this! I'm a real scientist!

Jason said...

forgiven said:

Here is a little something from a science website on the "big bang theory".

Your excerpt comes from a website that is part of a network of thinly veiled creationist websites. Just read what they have to say about evolution:

"It is agreed on all sides that there are only two possible solutions to the riddle of origins. Either Someone made the world, or the world made itself."

"Since Darwin put forth his theory, scientists have sought fossil evidence indicating past organic transitions. Nearly 150 years later, there has been no evidence of transition found thus far in the fossil record."

"it was thought perhaps Natural Selection in conjunction with genetic mutation allowed for the development of all species from a common ancestor. However, this is theoretical and controversial, since "beneficial" mutations have yet to be observed."

These people have no clue what they are talking about.

Webster Hunt (Parts Man) said...

@Nick:

Scientists "proving" that the universe has a beginning is like my wife proving that we have a radio in our car - it's very obvious. In the theory, they cannot say that all in existence arose from nothing by nothing because that violates scientific law, so they bow out to the point that they cannot say where it all started or why because the only other option is that someone had to call things into being. Though we may have advanced as far as technology, we are simpletons as a society in comparison to the minds of days past, because even secular scolars said that there had to "BE" in order for there to be "BEING" - that is that there had to be a root cause for everything we see; mortality rooted in immortality, and finite things rooted in infinite things, otherwise everything we see is an illusion. And so we have the Genesis account where God testifies that He has created all things from nothing. He told us how He did it, gave us specific details to the design, and gave us a time frame in which He did all of this. Secular scientists will not acknowledge God's testimony because in order to do that, they must come to terms with the fact that He can judge what He's created, and that would break their pride and pierce their consciences. So they'll keep searching for the answers to a question that they already have and know the answer to, because the proof is written on their hearts. God has given a verbal testimony, as well as a physical testimony that He is creator, judge, and saviour of everything everywhere; but, just like Jesus said, the unbeliever has rejected His testimony.

Pvblivs said...

Tinina Marie:

     I realize that you turn to "The Big Lie" to answer all your "questions." The fact is, we try to shed the light of truth on the situation by demonstrating testable facts. It is quite true that many lie-followers (christians) have immunized themselves to truth so that they need never turn their back on the lie. However, it is hoped that by revealing the lies we can prevent Ray from converting new "suckers" (even though there is supposedly one born every minute.)

Jason said...

Unfortunately, tinina said:

It seems that on every post that Mr. Comfort submit, we end up back at the evolution question.

Do you think maybe it could be that everything Ray posts relates to evolution? Could it be?? Why that's preposterous!! I say!

What you are not understanding is this: Followers of Christ do not need reference materials. We don't need source documents, research papers or books.

This is the saddest thing I have heard in a long, long time. I am going to go home and cry for six hours. Please don't ever talk to a child.

In a way it seems as if the non-believers are trying to convince themselves of their own reasonings. because I am 100% sure that all true converts who read this blog is not convinced.

I guess I'm a false convert after all. I hope the Lord can forgive me for my lingering respect for integrity and a commitment to truth that I actually take seriously.

Irukandji said...

Honestly, I don't know the first darn thing about particle physics, but I know enough about Ray's track record with science that I'm not going to trust anything he has to say on the subject.

From the good folks at Fermilab...

My uncle works at Fermilab!

flinging dust said...
This post has been removed by the author.
dale said...

Pvublivs,
In reference to a couple of your recent comments, I am actually wonderiing if there would be any way to quantify how many potential scientists, biologists, etc, that are taught to misttrust science, and thus end up in the humanities, etc instead.

Obviously all the kids that go to Liberty U, etc, are in this catagory. They try to turn them into lawyers because that gives them a platform from which to preach from.

Anyway, I imagine the number is quite large in some demographic areas.

That is such a pity. There are smaller countries out there turning out more scientists than the US does.

Do you have any insights to that?

dale said...

Pvublivs,
Addendum to previous:

I suppose that fundamentalists would not allow their kids to get into the natural sciences even if they wanted to.

Also, if a kid has been taught that sdcientists work on conjecture only and are part of a evil atheist conspiricy from a young age, they wouldn't be too likely to want to go into those fields.

Tinina Marie said...

pvblivs,

Well we certainly see on judgement day won't we?

Jason,
I was referring to all the information that is posted on this blog as resource material. Its a mute point for a christian. We believe in one book and one source. that is the Bible that was inspired by God. Period. Also, I'm not sure why you would bring up references to a child, I don't think there are any children on this blog.

Flinging Dust,
Everything you wrote can be said about what you believe. I would ask you if you really want to risk your eternal life? But I think I know the answer.

My comment remains the same, who are the non-believers trying to convince? It seems to me, all the information and resources that is posted is aimed at convincing yourself. It was mentioned that they wanted keep from converting "suckers" with the Big Lie. Let me put it to you this way,We don't convert people to christianity, We simply plant the seed, and God does the harvesting.

Willem said...

Hi. Ray. There is an atheist on Facebook that I am conversing with and your blog post would be nice to use as well. May I? Thanks and keep well.

NaFa said...

Irukandji,

"My uncle works at Fermilab!"

That's awesome! Tell him to start posting here

Chris said...

Terry said "@ chris, (aka chrisalmond) I see you are showing your 'true' colors on the side of the evolutionists. Thank you for being truthful with us at this time."

Terry, are you talking to me ? If so, you've got me confused with someone else. I don't know a "chrisalmond", and I've never pretended to be anything other than an atheist who accepts evolution.

LivingAsOneFreed said...

irukandji said:

"Honestly, I don't know the first darn thing about particle physics...."

You're admitting you don't know anything about particle physics? You're on record....

And why the 'honestly'? Have you not been up-front with us til this point?

flinging dust said...
This post has been removed by the author.
JOSHUA S BLACK said...

From someone who has chosen the username "The Doctor": "What makes any of the 'Christians' here believe that they are using the correct interpretation of scripture?

"Please answer by citing the authority, institution or role model that influenced your decision.

"Thank you."

I'm not sure what you mean by your question. Translation work has already been done hundreds of times over. There is nothing to "interpret"--the Word of God is quite clear on most things, and so vague on the few things that an "interpretation" is actually quite impossible.

The fact that different people disagree on what the Bible actually says doesn't change what the Bible actually says. It still says what it said before people started arguing about it. It simply takes some humility to actually read it for what it says and not what we want it to say.

get_education said...

"Either no one created everything out of nothing, or Someone—an intelligent, omnipotent, eternal First Cause—created everything out of nothing. Which makes more sense?"
-----

I choose "No one created everything out of nothing." This makes sense. We cannot calculate how much more sense though:

(sense of 1)/(sense of 2) = undetermined (not possible to divide by zero).

Of course, unless I misunderstood and you meant "everything appeared out of nothing," which is more debatable, yet still makes sense compared to option number 2, and it still gives "undetermined" if we have to make the math. If we can choose from other options, then, I would suggest "everything is the result of natural phenomena." This one makes complete sense, even if we do not know all of the details as of how.

As of other questions, well, I think the skeptical gang answered all of them, but if I find something that was not answered I might give it a try. I accept suggestions.

Stikman said...

Powersgrandma said...

I notice that the backers of all these scientific "theories" were not around when those "theories" supposedly were actually happening.

No but I've seen pictures from Hubble. You aren't in any of them.

:)

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge.

This statement scares me bad. Cast out the demon of intellect or something.

get_education said...

forgiven,
-----
Did you notice the line "Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning.
-----

If science popularizers do not always get evolution right, how would you expect them to always get something so much more complicated as the Big Bang right? Or! They might have gotten it right and by "nothing" they meant "nothing of what we see today," not "nothing" in matter terms (provided this is a true science popularizer site) . As far as I have read, the theory does not involve a nothingness becoming "somethingness," otherwise there would be nothing to make a decent explosion.

This is why semantics is much more important than it would seem. We have to learn how to properly convey what we mean.

G.E.

forgiven37 said...

Jason said...

forgiven37 said:

You guys have talked about the "big bang" for years and now your going to change your argument again?

You do realize that scientists don't claim things just for the heck of it, right? If new evidence comes in that contradicts the status quo, the status quo has to change. Seriously, this is baby logic.

Please share this "new" evidence with the world. Wait I'm sorry you don't have any. Same old song and dance.



NaFa said...

From the good folks at Fermilab...

"Empty space, we have discovered, is actually not empty at all. Quantum effects constantly produce particles and antiparticles "out of nothing," only to have them disappear few moments later."

Wait,wait,this just in from THE DEPARTMENT OF ETERNAL AFFAIRS. Yes it is true !!!! God created the universe and all that is in it.

Oh wait hahaha I thought you were about to say something that make sense! Do they give out prizes for the most nonsensical non-sequitors? I promise to vote for you!

You see this is and always has been the Christians stance. We have something more reliable than the science community that keep changing their minds. The Word of the Living God !

You know, when I was a little boy I somehow got the notion that at some point in the future, both my mother and I would turn into little girls. As I grew up, I encountered a lot of evidence that would convince any scientifically minded person that I was incorrect. However, I did not change my mind about this, and although it has never happened in the history of the earth, and there is no plausible mechanism to make this happen, I still believe that someday soon my mother and I will morph into little girls. I know it's really going to happen because I have never changed my mind on this! I'm a real scientist!

how do we know that your NOT a little girl ??????? Also how do we know that you didn't just stay at the holiday inn express last night.

Jason, your logic is faulty and your "theory" is faulty. Could you please tell me what the chances would be to create this "big bang" ? Just think that everything would have to be just right for it to take place. Then for it to create life as well as just matter ?

Can anyone tell the odds ???? If you claim the earth is billion of years old can you figure the odds of the "big bang" ? Please educate us simple folk on this matter.

forgiven37 said...

Jason said...

forgiven said:

Here is a little something from a science website on the "big bang theory".

Your excerpt comes from a website that is part of a network of thinly veiled creationist websites. Just read what they have to say about evolution:

"It is agreed on all sides that there are only two possible solutions to the riddle of origins. Either Someone made the world, or the world made itself."

"Since Darwin put forth his theory, scientists have sought fossil evidence indicating past organic transitions. Nearly 150 years later, there has been no evidence of transition found thus far in the fossil record."

"it was thought perhaps Natural Selection in conjunction with genetic mutation allowed for the development of all species from a common ancestor. However, this is theoretical and controversial, since "beneficial" mutations have yet to be observed."

These people have no clue what they are talking about.

No Jason my post wasn't taken from a creationist web site. I'm not sure where you got this one but it does show a good point. Where are the transitional fossils ? You can't show one because you don't have one.

I have a theory for you on the "big bang". God spoke and BANG it was there. Until you can show evidence of one form changing into another the case is closed.

flinging dust said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Rob Penn said...

@ The Celtic Chimp:

If God can be, then so can any inaminate matter that sparked the universe.

Why is that. Matter and God are two completely seperate things, not similar at all in any shape form or fashion. Why do they have to follow the same rules?

Gasses expand to take the shape of their containers, so rocks must also.


There may be, and if history is anything to go by there probably is, layers of physical laws we haven't even yet theorised about which will one day shed light on the mystery.

That may be, but until such a time we have to work with what we've got, right?


I'm sure this seems logical to you Ray but it isn't.

Careful with that one around here. I've seen the "God's wisdom is foolishness to the world" thing too many times.

I really do believe that Christians use that as a cop-out so that they don't have to put the effort in to finding better answers or better ways to communicate the answers that they have. It makes me sad in my heart.

:(

Rob Penn said...

@ flinging dust & get education:

Second, Big bang is not evolution of the species, and nothing in this statements invalidates evolution itself.

How very, very true. I wish more people understood that.

Our tax dollars at work, folks.

I stopped pursuing a career in education for a reason...

Rob Penn said...

@ forgiven37:

We have something more reliable than the science community that keep changing their minds.

In all fairness, we need to admit two things:

1) That science changes is a good thing. People used to believe the earth was flat. Science changed and now we know it's round. That science makes new discoveries all the time means it's doing it's job, and that discrediting science because "it can't make up it's mind" shows either a lack of understanding about what science is and does or a desperation in attempts to disprove that science.


B) Christian Theology changes a lot as well. See "Reformation," "New Paul Perspective," and "Denomination."

Does that mean that Christian Theology is bad because "it can't make up it's mind?"

Rob Penn said...

@ Tinina Marie:

What you are not understanding is this: Followers of Christ do not need reference materials. We don't need source documents, research papers or books. We have 1 book that settles it all. I am sure you have heard of it: The Bible.

Surprising, Right? I don't need to go and look at the assumptions that a human has made. I can go directly to the book that is the Word of God.


I take a couple of issues with those statements:

1) The Bible is not a book.

B) One with that mindset needs to be very careful with what they do with it. It's WAY to easy to get from there to "So why bother to research it at all?"

I'm not accusing, mind you. I just threw that out there for any and all to see who might be thinking about the old cop-outs that the church spent so long perfecting and refining.

Rob Penn said...

@ Nick:

Look at how soon in the book embarrassing blunders appear in the Bible.

It says that light came after the Earth was created. But light comes from the Sun, and if the Sun had not been around first, the Earth would not have been in the gravitational range of any sufficiently large body and would have been dislocated in space.

The sun came first.

Here the Bible is faced with a 50/50 proposition--Did the Earth or Sun come first?--and it gets the answer wrong.

Pretty pathetic, eh?


Not if you put it into the proper context.

Genesis 1 is not a discertation on the construction of matter and the various forms of it in the universe. It's a poem. Yes, the Ancient Hebrews and early church believed that the universe was created in six days because of that poem, but God made it a poem and not an historical telling (like Acts or the two Chronicles/Kings pairs) for a reason. I believe he did so because he knew that some day, the man that he created would learn how to measure the speed of light.

Rob Penn said...

@ dale:

So, we look like God.

"Acording to to "our" likeness."
Must have been some other God(s)around at the time.


Think of it from the mindset of the Ancient Hebrews;

"In our image" and "According to our likeness" probably referred more to personality traits than it does actual appearance.

As for the "our," I see that as The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit talking to each other.


As long as I am talking about the Trinity, I'd like to ask a question to the Christians out there. It has occured to me that there is an analogy that beats all analogies of the trinity that I've ever heard; Firestorm.

You know, the character from DC comics. He's two distinct people, Jason Rusch and Martin Stein, but both are equally Firestorm. Kinda like that, but with three instead of two.

I dunno. Just something nerdy I thought of at three in the morning.

Rob Penn said...

@ The Doctor:

What makes any of the 'Christians' here believe that they are using the correct interpretation of scripture?

Please answer by citing the authority, institution or role model that influenced your decision.

Thank you.


I am convinced that my interpretation is correct because of how it plays out in my life. Is there a way to cite that?

As for role Models that have influenced my descision, Dr. Bruce Metzger (this guy's work is the authority on Canonology), Dr. Brian Baldwin (not yet published, but is starting his first college teaching job this comming school year), a little bit of Dr. Ben Witherington the Third (Cool guy, big name in the New Paul Perspective movement), and Dr. Robert Morphew (My Grand father, he and I don't agree on a LOT of doctrine now, but he was the one who taught me first about God's love for me.)

Rob Penn said...

@ Jason:

So basically you're saying, "Everything must have a cause. Therefore, not everything has a cause."

I guess I finally understand.


No, they're saying that everything regarding matter and it's properties must have a cause, so something that is not matter (and therefore doesn't need a cause) had to cause it.

They then go on to say that they (as I) believe that something that isn't matter is YHWH.

Rob Penn said...

@ dale:

Do you have any insights to that?

Well, I imagine that some number of those kids grow up and make their own doctrinal descisions in life. Also, it's entirely possible that those uber fundy families encourage the scientific thinkers of their children to infiltrate the scientific community and bring them to their knees.

Or, maybe Christians grow up to be real scientists and worship him in their study. "God, this lizard is so cool! Look at how every part of it's body helps it to be able to run on water! I'm glad you thought of that!"


My aunt tried to get me to transfer to Liberty University once. She encoraged me to enter into a scholarship competition held by Answers In Genesis (ugh), and when I researhed a bit I found that the scholarship was only to attend Liberty. I asked her about it and she said "Well, ya know, some times students just need a change to charge them up and I figured transfering could be it for you."

Funny thing is, if I had transferred, I never would have heard the call into campus ministry. I'd be doing something goofy like law. *shudders*

Rob Penn said...

@ JOSHUA S. BLACK:

It simply takes some humility to actually read it for what it says and not what we want it to say.

It also takes effort to research the figures of speech specific to that language, cultural norms of the day, and minds of the authors and intended audiences, all of which influence the meaning of what is plainly in front of our eyes.

Sadly, most Christians don't want to put that much effort into it...

Rob Penn said...

@ Stikman:

No but I've seen pictures from Hubble. You aren't in any of them.

:)


That's... actually kind of funny...

heh.

NaFa said...

Rob Penn said…”Genesis 1 is not a discertation on the construction of matter and the various forms of it in the universe. It's a poem. Yes, the Ancient Hebrews and early church believed that the universe was created in six days because of that poem, but God made it a poem and not an historical telling (like Acts or the two Chronicles/Kings pairs) for a reason. I believe he did so because he knew that some day, the man that he created would learn how to measure the speed of light.”


Yet many Christians take it literally, hence the ‘Evolution’ debate. The TOE in itself says nothing about the existence of God nor does it require you to be an atheist to accept that it is a fact. If Genesis 1 is only meant to be a poem, not a historical telling, why can’t Christians reconcile their belief with the fact of Evolution? As in; God used Common Descent and Natural Selection to create biodiversity.


Rob Penn…”As long as I am talking about the Trinity, I'd like to ask a question to the Christians out there. It has occurred to me that there is an analogy that beats all analogies of the trinity that I've ever heard; Firestorm.”


I was thinking about the Trinity also. Recently we discussed why it is nonsense to ask ‘Can God build a rock so heavy…’ and ‘Can God make a square circle’ questions. Because they violate logic and God is a logical being.
Yet the Trinity violates logic just as much as a square circle. There is no difference.

A square does not equal a circle.
Three people do not equal one person.

Now putting aside argumentum ad DC comics for a moment, either the Trinity is not true because it violates logic or God cannot be known through logical means. If the latter is true, then all our discussion of Him is pointless. We can not know anything about Him.

The Celtic Chimp said...

Rob penn,

No, they're saying that everything regarding matter and it's properties must have a cause, so something that is not matter (and therefore doesn't need a cause) had to cause it.

This is very sloppy reasoning.

A logically equivalent statement would be:

No, they're saying that in order to grow, apple trees must have sunlight, so something that is not an apple tree (and therefore doesn't need sunlight) can grow without it.

Do you see the problem? You have inserted a completely unfounded presumtion into the middle of a logical statement.

You have committed the special pleading fallacy. You are exempting non-matter from the general universal rule that everything has a cause. You have given no good grounds for why this might be so. It is not at all logically consistant that this be the case. In fact, as you are asserting something which goes against a well established universal truth, you are going to need some pretty solid reasons for why it should be the case. It is most certainly not axiomatic

NaFa said...

Joshua S Black said…’I'm not sure what you mean by your question. Translation work has already been done hundreds of times over. There is nothing to "interpret"--the Word of God is quite clear on most things, and so vague on the few things that an "interpretation" is actually quite impossible.’

Yet the fact is peoples do come to different conclusions. It may not be the one the author intended but this is true of all written word. It is not math. Math is strictly defined. 2 + 2 can only equal 4. Words can have many different meanings.
AllFiredUp mentioned in another thread that they key is to apply good Hermeneutics. That sounds very reasonable; to have a consistent tool for interpretation. Yet ultimately it is a human tool, thus imperfect. And even if a consistent tool is used it is impossible for word interpretation to be completely objective. Various interpretations made by Supreme Court Justices interpreting the same section of Constitution may be good example. The Bible and the Constitution just are not written in the style of an instruction manual.

And again, it is fact Christians are not all in 100% agreement. You may dismiss them as not being real Christians. But they themselves will disagree and back it up with Scripture just as you would do. It has recently come to my attention that there are even some Christians that disagree with our very own beloved Blog Master, Ray Comfort. I know…shocking!

The Celtic Chimp said...

Rob,

Sorry, only just noticed this earlier response.

If God can be, then so can any inaminate matter that sparked the universe.

Why is that. Matter and God are two completely seperate things, not similar at all in any shape form or fashion. Why do they have to follow the same rules?

Gasses expand to take the shape of their containers, so rocks must also.


As the properties of God are completely invented (and regularly seem to change to suit the occasion) I was making the point that whatever attribute you give to God to remove his need for a cause can similarly be attributed to matter in a state that is similarly invented. We don't know what state matter was in prior to the big bang and more to the point we don't know what physical laws might have been in effect.
Boiling it down -

if you can invent properties for you God, we can invent properties an states for matter ;)

Tinina Marie said...

Rob Penn,

You are correct, the bible isn't a book. How can something that is alive be contained?

Also, I am not sure what you meant when you said:
One with that mindset needs to be very careful with what they do with it. It's WAY to easy to get from there to "So why bother to research it at all?"

Believe me I don't feel like you accused me of anything or offended with the other comments made about my posts.

Jason said...

forgiven said:

No Jason my post wasn't taken from a creationist web site.

Did you get it from big-bang-theory dot com? If there are other websites with that exact same text, Google sure doesn't know about them, except for one website that seems to be simply an aggregator. Lots of sites quote part of the text, but only one site has the entire first paragraph you quoted, and that's big-bang-theory dot com, according to Google.

I'm not sure where you got this one but it does show a good point. Where are the transitional fossils ? You can't show one because you don't have one.

*takes a deep breath*

Pakicetus
Ambulocetus
Kutchicetus
Remingtonocetus
Dorudon
Eurhinodelphis
Eusthenopteron
Padericthys
TIKTAALIK (for crying out loud!)
Acanthostega
Icthyostega
Tulerpeton
Gerobatrachus
Onychonycteris

OK, your turn to explain them all away. Have fun. Don't forget, there is no such thing as the Bible and there never was!

Jason said...

@flinging dust:

@ jason:

please forgive me for stepping into the conversation between you and forgiven 37 but i would like to point out something....


Your help is always appreciated.

dale said...

Rob Penn,
You said,
"Funny thing is, if I had transferred, I never would have heard the call into campus ministry. I'd be doing something goofy like law."

I have to wonder how you know that to be true.
No need to answer because there is no way you could know that to be true.

Rob Penn said...

@ The Celtic Chimp:

if you can invent properties for you God, we can invent properties an states for matter ;)

Such a statement forgets that both the nature of God and the nature of Matter have an authoritative source.

Yes, on minor details, God's attributes seem to be difficult to discern because of language and cultural things. The unbound qualities in question aren't one of those.

Assuming a responsible method of study in a person, the attributes of God aren't invented any more than the attributes of Matter. Even if I completely disregard my belief that God has been around since long before man, his attributes have been in the Bible since long before the need to invent them as you and several others have described it.

You said yourself that "We don't know what state matter was in prior to the big bang and more to the point we don't know what physical laws might have been in effect."

So, why not stick to what we know from our authoritative sources rather than relying on what we don't yet know?


Your statement looks at the topic with the assumption that Christianity is purely the product of human imagination. I have no problem with an atheist holding such an assumption, as long as they can suspend it for the ammount of time needed to investigate with a balanced bias, as I'm sure any Atheist here would say of a Christian's assumptions about God.

Rob Penn said...

@ The Celtic Chimp:

You have committed the special pleading fallacy. You are exempting non-matter from the general universal rule that everything has a cause. You have given no good grounds for why this might be so. It is not at all logically consistant that this be the case. In fact, as you are asserting something which goes against a well established universal truth, you are going to need some pretty solid reasons for why it should be the case. It is most certainly not axiomatic

1) What's axiomatic?

B) Your analogy doesn't work, here. Primarily because there are things that grow without sunlight. Super deep caves, and the bottom of the oceans have evolved creatures that have lost their depencance on light and in some cases can even create their own.

When you said "a thing that isn't a tree," you were probably considering another plant. At least, that's what I assume. A tree and another organism (of any kind) is a far cry from the difference between God and the Universe in that all organisms are made of matter and so have to exist accordingly.

If (not even trying here to convince you that he did) YHWH existed before the universe, why would he have to be part of the universal laws of physics?

Rob Penn said...

@ NaFa:

And again, it is fact Christians are not all in 100% agreement. You may dismiss them as not being real Christians. But they themselves will disagree and back it up with Scripture just as you would do. It has recently come to my attention that there are even some Christians that disagree with our very own beloved Blog Master, Ray Comfort. I know…shocking!

I happen to be one of those Christians that doesn't agree with Ray on a few things. Like his definition of what a false convert is. But I won't get into that now.

Having said that, the fact that Christians can't agree on the meaning of two dead dialects of ancient languages written by people of ancient and long dead cultures to specific audiences in ancient and long dead cultures doesn't mean anything except that ancient and long dead ways are hard to discern by modern day peoples.

Science has a lot of people that disagree with the meaning of their evidences as well, most obviously to me (the psychology major) in the field of Psychology. Does that mean that the evidences they are all trying to interpret are false? Well, no.

That Christians can't agree on every point of the meaning of their evidence doesn't negate the reliability of that evidence; it simply means that it requires more study.

Rob Penn said...

@ NaFa:

Yet many Christians take it literally, hence the ‘Evolution’ debate. The TOE in itself says nothing about the existence of God nor does it require you to be an atheist to accept that it is a fact. If Genesis 1 is only meant to be a poem, not a historical telling, why can’t Christians reconcile their belief with the fact of Evolution? As in; God used Common Descent and Natural Selection to create biodiversity.

It's a matter of Hermeneutics. The ones who can't reconsile that way are the ones with a stricter interpretation; "Why would God be so confusing?", they ask. "Why would he do anything but just spell it out right there? That doesn't make any sense."

To that, I would answer "Well, it doesn't if you read the Bible as if every word were designed only for you. However, I'm not opposed to the idea of a six day creation. I just think that the nature of poetry and it's use in Genesis 1 doesn't require us to believe in a six day creation."

In essence, it's a non issue on both sides. I don't want to convince any one of a six day creation OR of evolution; I think it's important to realize that it's a non-issue and there are more important things to discuss.


Now putting aside argumentum ad DC comics for a moment, either the Trinity is not true because it violates logic or God cannot be known through logical means. If the latter is true, then all our discussion of Him is pointless. We can not know anything about Him.

I disagree. That God's nature defies logic doesn't mean that his thoughts and decisions aren't logical, and can't be understood through logical thinking.

God's personality, as portrayed in the Bible, is increadibly logical by human standards. Our personalities are modled after his.

Think about literature. You can have literature either on paper with ink, or you can have it digitally. One is hard material, and the other is immaterial sequences of numbers. But the content of both can be analyzed and understood by literary means, because they both contain literature.

Same with God and humans. One is material and finite, but the other is immaterial and infinite. But both contain logical personalities, and so both can be understood by logical means.

There is a MAJOR difference here, admittedly, because God's logic has so much more understanding than ours that we may not understand some of the decisions he makes and thigns that he says like a child doesn't understand why his mom says not to touch the oven, or a dog doesn't understand why he gets in trouble when he escapes the fence. He's above us for sure, and we won't ever fully know God in this life, but there are many many things about him that we can understand logically.

Rob Penn said...

@ Tininia Marie:

You are correct, the bible isn't a book. How can something that is alive be contained?

Actually, that's not what I was getting at, either.

The Bible isn't a book; it's a library. Every book, letter, poem, legend, story, song, and proverb has it's own context, and the Context of a thing changes it's meaning. The Bible isn't even entirely in Chronological order! Reading it the same way you would read a book is not a good way of study.


Also, I am not sure what you meant when you said:
One with that mindset needs to be very careful with what they do with it. It's WAY to easy to get from there to "So why bother to research it at all?"


If you say, "The Bible is the only authority that Chrisitans need," the next step in that parade becomes, "And because of that, I will read only the Bible."

It is important for Christians to understand that the Bible isn't written to Americans. Each book and letter was written by Ancient Hebrews (with the exception of Luke/Acts), and was written to a specific audience. Their culture is dead. The dialects of their language are dead. We CAN'T fully understand the context of their message without reading up on some ancient history and ancient languages and ancient civilizations.

Even if that's not part of your Hermaneutics (not a discision I would make, but not really an arguable one either,) I think we can both agree that the only way to reach the world we live in is to understand it. We can't really understand what's going on around us unless we do a bit of research on what the world believes.

Rob Penn said...

@ dale:

I have to wonder how you know that to be true.
No need to answer because there is no way you could know that to be true.


No way that I can know 100% certainly, but I have about an 80% certainty of it.

Before I could be given that kind of gift, I had to be in a place and had to be the kind of person who would recognize that it was being given to me and that could feasibly reach out and accept it. Liberty Universtity, from what I've seen, wouldn't have done that for me. The campus ministry at my secular school has done SO much more for my faith than I believe any undergrad Bible College could do.

Rob Penn said...

@ The Celtic Chimp:

This is not the case Ray. If evolution is true, the genesis account of creation is bogus. If genesis is false then Christians have no basis for believing that we are 'fallen'. That doesn't nessesarily mean there is no God. It is pretty persuasive evidence against your particular God though.

What about the idea that Genesis wasn't meant to be a discertation describing every detail of the origin of creation?

Even if it is, Evolution and the Big Bang theories would have to hold that "If it happened that way, then we simply can't detect it, because we observe nature and such an event would be supernatural."

That's how my Bio teacher says it, any way.

Rob Penn said...

@ Flinging Dust:

Personally,I think the whole 'don't tempt God' thing was a way to keep people from conducting experiments to test the claim that there was a deity in the first place.

When you put that belief aside verses in the Bible that say things like "You should look for God," and "All of you should do your research and really know what you're talking about," I tend to believe that such is not the case.

^_^

Rob Penn said...

@ Pvblivs:

I know you think that changing "bring forth every kind of plant that bears seed" (on the third day) directly conflicting with the other story saying man was made while there was no grass, to "bring forth vegetation," removing the conflict, is not editing.

Just as a question, where do you find that example?

I can't seem to find it in any translations of Genesis. I've found it in Psalms in the NKJV and the NAS, but nothing in the creation story of Genesis.

I'd like to look into it a bit, if you could point me in the right direction. ^_^

Rob Penn said...

@ Pvblivs:

As it was put together, the people sought to remove any such problems (editing.) But they missed some. Now there is further editing going on to remove contradictions that have been pointed out.

The problem with that idea is that we have ancient copies that show that things haven't really changed at all in that way. We also know that the culture of the people punishes those things by death, and their works are all burned and destroyed. There's no way that such editing could possibly have survived; In the scenario that it was a sham, as you say, the people being duped would have killed any such editors.

Tinina Marie said...

Rob Penn,

Well, I agree with the fact that some research can be done. I believe a mature Christian can spend time reading other resource materials. If you are mature Christian you should have gained the spirit of discernment. However, my desire is to see those who don’t believe saved

I don't think the bible is written just specifically to a dead audience, as you state. Where does God say he expects that of us? I understand your point regarding the age in which the bible was written, however If
God knew us before we were formed, then he would have written the bible for anyone who chooses to read it. How do you share the Gospel with others? How do you tell others your testimony for Christ?

Honestly, I don’t need to go to any other resource or source material to understand what God is trying to say to me through the word. I do, however, stay abreast of different things that will affect the kingdom of God from an evangelism standpoint. As a follower of Christ, we are called to share the gospel. How could I share the Gospel with someone, and then give them a list of footnotes of other resources? To me that is what the world does, in order to support their stance they provide multiple documents, quotes and resources. With the bible, if you are truly seeking an understanding of the word with an open heart you don’t need any other resource material.

You also mentioned that you didn’t agree with Mr. Comfort’s definition of a false convert. How do you define a false convert?

forgiven37 said...

Jason said...

Did you get it from big-bang-theory dot com? If there are other websites with that exact same text, Google sure doesn't know about them, except for one website that seems to be simply an aggregator. Lots of sites quote part of the text, but only one site has the entire first paragraph you quoted, and that's big-bang-theory dot com, according to Google.

try all about science. as for your transitional list I did look them over and had a very good laugh.

here is a little something for you and flinging dust to look over.

The Nine Great 'Proofs' for Evolution: and Why They Are All False!

Proof #1 - Evolutionists Claim That “Things” Change over Time, Thus “Proving” Evolution. Do They?



This proof is discussed in three parts which make up the whole. Evolutionists make three claims to support their position that things do change over time. The claims are: that genetic information changes beneficially by random chance over time; that natural selection and survival of the fittest are driving these mutational changes “upward” to produce greater intelligence and complexity; and, that the adaptation of species to new environments demonstrates evolution at work.



Genetics



Evolutionists say that biological life forms change in an “upward” direction, becoming more and more complex, through spontaneous mutation of genetic information. However, the word mutation means by definition “copying error.” A mutation is a structural change in the hereditary material which makes the offspring different from the parents. Mutations are errors in copying the genetic codes.



You may copy something perfectly or imperfectly, but you cannot copy something more perfectly. If we copy something perfectly, then there is no change from one generation to the next. If we copy something imperfectly, then the information is degraded or corrupted and the next generation will suffer from the imperfections of the copying processes.



Gene pools contain lots of information but “new” genes, that are “new pieces of information,” are never produced. New information does not come into existence without the input from a greater outside intelligence. Mutations are random and not directed. Mutations affect and are affected by many genes and other intergenic information acting in combination with one another. Neither is new information produced simply from an input of undirected energy.



The addition of excess undirected energy will accomplish nothing beneficial; it will destroy the previously existing system. For example: if a computer designed to operate on 110 volt electricity is plugged into a 220 volt power supply it will destroy the computer. But, all that we did was to add excess undirected energy into the computers’ system.



The Laws of Genetics are conservative, not creative; these laws only allow for the copying or rearranging of previously existing information which is then passed on in new combinations to the next generation. Even ardent evolutionists like, Dr. Stephen J. Gould of Harvard University, Dr. Niles Eldredge of the American Museum of Natural History in New York and Dr. Colin Patterson of the British Museum of Natural History, have admitted that there are no transitional life forms found in the fossil record. None!



Random mutations produce microevolution, which is only variation within a created kind. Random mutations cannot produce macroevolution, which would be the supposed change from one kind into a different kind.



Genetic research which has attempted to force spontaneous mutations has proven to be futile in producing beneficial mutations. Evolutionists cannot adequately answer the question: “Where did the original information that is being copied come from?”



Since 1910, over 3,000 mutations in Fruit Flies have been documented, yet there is no documentation of a Fruit Fly evolving into something else.



Do things change over time?



Consider ants, horseshoe crabs, bats or algae. Many ant species appear in amber from the Dominican Republic, which evolutionists claim is 25 to 40 million years old. Yet they look exactly the same as they do today. Fossil horseshoe crabs claimed to be 150 million years old are identical to those found alive. The oldest skeleton of a fossil bat, dated as Eocene by evolutionists and supposedly 50 million years old, looks exactly like the skeleton of modern bats. The “oldest” fossils found on earth are said to be blue-green algae colonies one billion years old; yet these fossil colonies seem to be duplicates of living colonies.



There has been an often touted story told by evolutionists about the supposed evolutionary changes that occurred in the English Peppered Moth. They declared that this story “proved” that evolution could be seen at work in nature.



The story goes something like this. During the Industrial Revolution of the 19th Century, the English Peppered Moth changed from a mixed population of individuals that were mostly white with black specks and fewer black individuals with white specks to a population that was mostly black with only a few white. The idea was that coal burning had darkened the tree trunks and buildings in England and that the white individuals stood out against the dark background and the black individuals were camouflaged; thus, whiter individuals were eliminated by birds eating them first and the black were protected and they propagated an ever larger percentage of the total population.



The story is, however, a total hoax! In the 1950’s, a British physician, Bernard Kettlewell, wanted to try to prove that evolution was true and that natural selection was at work in nature as Darwin had believed. In order to get his proof he tried to release English Peppered Moths during the day near trees with bark of various colors. He wrote an article for the Scientific American magazine and declared that his experiment was evidence of Darwin’s predictions. His article has become the foundation of hundreds of textbook references to evolution at work in nature.



In the 1980’s evidence was given that this story is a hoax. First, English Peppered Moths are nocturnal and do not fly around during the day when birds might see them. Dr. Kettlewell had to wake the moths up, and in their confusion of seeing daylight, more landed on him than on the nearby trees. Second, the Moths do not land on the trunks of trees where they might be seen by predators (if they were out in the daytime) because they live in the canopies of trees where they are well hidden. Third, the photographs of these moths sitting on tree trunks and reproduced in countless textbooks were staged. The moths were actually dead and had to be glued onto the trees in order to take the now famous photographs.



What does the English Peppered Moth teach us about natural selection? They demonstrate the fixity of species and the natural and easily understood lateral adaptation allowed within a gene pool, fully consistent with the creationist position. The structure of the moth did not change over time. This moth illustrates lateral adaptation, not progressive evolution.



We may summarize the factual information about mutations in these five statements.



First, mutations are harmful, since they are, by definition, copying errors. Only a perfect copy of previously existing information is desirable. Anything else is a copying error, and that means that the information will become worse, not better, over time.



Second, mutations are rare and beneficial ones are unknown. You can’t get better than perfection. Any copy must either remain perfect, or if a change does occur, then that change would have to go “downhill.” Consider these examples. What happens when a story is retold from one person to another in a string of ten people? Do we end up with the original story? If an original cartoon and caption are copied 100 times prior to your receiving it, are the lines a little wavy? Are there black specks on the paper that were not on the original? Has the picture improved or gotten worse for copying? What would happen if a blind, tone-deaf person were to randomly change the tension of the strings on a perfectly tuned piano? Would the piano stay in tune? Would he ever get it back in perfect tune by random chance? These are useful examples of what happens when mutations occur.



Third, mutations do not create new organs; they only modify existing ones. We have never seen a new organ appear fully developed and ready to use. We have seen existing organs become deformed and unusable through mutation.



Fourth, mutations do not accumulate; that is, they do not build, or have an additive effect, one after another to form a chain of major evolutionary changes. Any change that does occur is diluted in the very next generation so that there is no long term net beneficial effect.



Fifth, mutations lead to the wrong kind of change. What occurs is only the deterioration and corruption of the previous information, not the building up of information and structures.



The Laws of Genetics do not fit with the random chance progressively “upward” increase in either intelligence or complexity which the theories of evolution would require. The Laws of Genetics were written by the Creator to maintain and preserve the information that He had encoded in the original kinds as described in Genesis Chapter One.



Natural Selection and Survival of the Fittest



Evolutionists claim that the driving force for the progressive upward increase in complexity and intelligence of living organisms is due to natural selection and survival of the fittest, “nature red [bloody] in tooth and claw” as Charles Darwin put it. Is this position correct, logical or even plausible?



Natural selection was first a creationist argument! William Edward Blyth (1818-1873) in 1835, 24 years before Charles Darwin, stated that natural selection was only a conservative process that removes defective organisms and keeps species pure and strong. Dr. Thomas Huxley, M.D., and known as “Darwin’s Bulldog” in England, chastised Darwin for not giving Blyth the credit for the concept. Even though Darwin verbally agreed with Huxley that he should have given Blyth the credit, Darwin refused to do so in print.



Creation believing scientists of the past four hundred years have consistently said that natural selection and survival of the fittest were the methods designed by God to preserve the purity of the created kinds, thus preserving the kinds as closely as possible to the design with which God started. By weeding out the genetically defective, the older and the infirm individuals in a population, those remaining were healthy and strong versus weak and extinct. Wildlife management research done around the world has proven that natural selection and survival of the fittest do not work in nature to produce progressive “upward” evolution, but rather that these mechanisms in nature work to preserve and maintain the purity of the kind.



Predators, which are said to be the ones who “weed” out a population, do not take the defective or infirm only; predators are opportunistic hunters and take any individual, including the best and strongest, regardless of their condition. Predators do not go out and make value judgments. Predators (lions) do not look at the individuals in a herd (antelope) and say to themselves, “That one is genetically defective.” Or, “That one is old, so I’ll take that one.” Predators take prey based upon the opportunity to catch it. If the strongest and most intelligent member of a herd makes a mental mistake and gets isolated from the herd, the predators will take that one first. When a Killer Whale swims through a school of fish it is not the survival of the fittest; it is the survival of the most fortunate - the survival of the luckiest.



Evolutionists propose that the following formula describes their myth: Mutations Cause Change + Nature Causes Change = Observed Evolution. What is the real formula? Adaptation + Imagination = The Myth of Evolution.



Interestingly enough, recent research in the Galapagos Islands, which made Charles Darwin so famous, has shown that small populations often lead to extinction rather than speciation and this has caused evolutionists to demand ever increasing land areas to be set aside in order to prevent extinction from a lack of biodiversity. This would seem to go counter to the prior evolutionary belief that it was isolation in new environments which was the cause of new species.



Evolutionists claim that over time things get bigger, better, faster and smarter. The physical record shows, however, that plants and animals in the past were bigger than they are today. Consider the cockroach, dragonfly and Chambered Nautilus. Today, cockroaches grow up to 2 3/4 inches long, but in the fossil record they are often up to 18 inches long. Today, we have dragonflies that are up to six inches across in wingspan, but in the fossil record we find them with wingspans of up to 50 inches across. Today, chambered nautiluses grow to be 10 ½ inches in diameter, but in the fossil record we find them up to eight feet in diameter. So, things aren’t getting bigger, better, faster and smarter. They are getting smaller, worse, slower and dumber.



Adaptation of Species



Evolutionists claim that adaptation of species to new environments proves that evolution occurs. It is true that intelligent outside manipulation of breeding can produce new combinations which yield a new specific variety, or sometimes called a “race,” of a “kind” of species. The variety produced can only be maintained, however, if the outside intelligence (human beings) continues to guide the breeding process in order to maintain the purity of that variety.



As everyone knows, dogs and cats are indiscriminate breeders and, if left to their own devices, will produce a “Heinz 57” kind every time. You can take the two biggest horses you can find and they will not continue to give birth to ever larger horses. There is a limit which cannot be exceeded. This also works in the opposite direction. If it is possible to breed ever smaller dogs down to “miniature,” and then “toy;” shouldn’t it be possible to continue the process until dogs became so small that eventually a breed of invisible dogs were produced? This, of course, is nonsense. There is a limit to how small a species may get and still remain viable.



What Charles Darwin observed in the 1800’s was the artificial selection that produced many of the purebred varieties that we see today. Artificial selection occurs when people decide which animal or plant will breed with another. Darwin knew that if he stated that artificial selection was occurring in nature by random chance no one would believe him. Therefore, he wrote deceptively that “natural selection” was the driving force of evolution.



Please refer to the comment on the Galapagos Islands above concerning the effect of environment on species. Lateral adaptation within a gene pool is consistent with the creationist position; gene pools may be “pushed” to the edge of the envelope by human breeders but one kind never becomes a different kind.



Pure breeding and hybridization have produced extremes at the edge of the gene pool; but the sugar content of sugar beets and the speed of racehorses have been maximized by breeding in the past and very little additional change is genetically possible in the future.



The ability of life forms to adapt to new environments actually demonstrates that they were designed/created. Only the farsightedness of a perfect Creator could take into consideration all the future factors and design plants and animals to be able to survive under so many varied conditions.



Proof #2—Evolutionists Claim That the Fossil Record “Proves” Evolution. Does it?



The evolutionist uses a false form of circular reasoning to “prove” that he is correct. First, he starts with the assumption that he is correct, by faith. Second, he goes to the other side of the circle, digs up fossils from different places around the world and arranges them in the order he “wants” them to be in. Last, he goes back around the circle and says, “You see, the fossils prove that I am right.” This logic is patently illogical.



When the Greeks developed the science of logic 2,500 years ago, they called this kind of reasoning a tautology; that it was circular reasoning that falls under its own weight, that it was patently illogical. If you allow me to rearrange the evidence I can prove anything I want to, can’t I? You cannot rearrange the evidence and then claim proof for anything!



If you remember little else from this material, remember this! One of the single greatest differences between a creation-believing scientist and an evolution-believing scientist is that the creationist does not rearrange his evidence and the evolutionist does!



The creationist has no incentive to want to rearrange the evidence. No matter what the evidence is, no matter where the evidence is found, as long as it is found honestly, the creationist has no incentive to move it. We may not understand it now; we may not have the correct interpretation of it now; we may never understand it until He comes back to tell us what it is all about; but we believe that whatever is found honestly will be consistent with a Creator God and we have no incentive to rearrange the evidence. The evolutionist must rearrange his evidence before he claims proof; and that is a monstrous difference!



The evolutionist claims that the fossil evidence is the slow and gradual accumulation over millions and billions of supposed years of dead plants and animals. These remains are supposedly contained in layers which are “in the right [evolutionary] order.” This order is supposed to be the order found in the typical Geologic Time Column or Geologic Time Scale so often printed in evolutionary science textbooks. This series of fossil bearing rock layers starts with the present at the top and goes down, or “back in time,” billions of supposed years. These charts typically show that single-celled creatures came from nonliving matter (rocks) by random chance; that once alive, these single-celled creatures inherently became multiple-celled creatures; that multiple-celled creatures eventually evolved into man.



What is the truth about the rock layers? The truth is that there is not one location on earth where you can take a pick and a shovel and, starting at the surface, dig straight down and find the rock layers in the “perfect [evolutionary]” order which the evolutionist’s claim them to be in. The Geologic Column does not exist in nature; it only exists in the textbooks and in the minds of those who chose to believe it. The Geologic Time Column is nothing more than evolutionary speculation and arbitrary opinion. No where in the world is it to be found!



To be fair, there are 26 locations of the surface of the earth where the major layers may be found in the ”textbook” order, however, that is only if you look at them from a couple of miles away. If you look at them up close and personal there are many discrepancies to be found in those layers.



More importantly, if there are only 26 locations on the surface of the earth where the layers may be found in the order shown in the textbooks, what do you do about the other million locations on earth where the layers cannot be found in the textbook order?



What do we find in the real world? We find that the rock layers are out of order, upside down, alternating back and forth, and missing. Most often we find only two to four layers in any one location. Often these layers are not in the “right” order according to evolutionists. Often we find “older” layers on top of “younger” layers. One such example is Heart Mountain in Wyoming, where the top two layers of the mountain are upside down, according to evolutionary philosophy, and there is 300 million years supposed years missing in between.



How can this be? The evolutionist replies that this is an example of “overthrust.” Overthrust is supposed to be a place where a large section of rock layers have been broken off by seismic activity and then pushed up and over the adjacent rock layers. True overthrust is rare and easily detected because when it does occur it leaves a layer of broken rock pieces between the layers of rock which are moving against each other. Note, however, that the amount of pressure necessary to push large volumes of rock up and over other layers would be enough pressure to pulverize the rock being pushed. Also, most “out of order” rock layers do not even have dust in between then. Overthrust cannot explain the many rock layers which are found “out of order” all over the world.



You only find fossils in sedimentary rock. The word sedimentary comes from the word sediment, which is what remains at the bottom of a glass of water after you throw dirt into it. Sedimentary rock was mud which dried out into hard rock. Sediment comes basically from water-carried material, although a small amount may be formed from windblown debris.



I would like for you to consider the following statement and then I will ask you a question. Seventy-five to eighty percent of the entire earth’s surface is covered with dried-out mud layers containing trillions of dead plants and animals that all drowned. Does that sound like the result of slow and gradual accumulation over millions and billions of supposed years? Or, does that sound like what we would expect to find as the result of a recent rapid one year long worldwide flood? The fossil evidence is best understood as trillions of dead plants and animals which drowned in a recent flood. Only a worldwide flood such as the Flood of Noah could produce the rock layers which we find covering the earth today.



Many of the fossil layers are found in highly folded or convoluted shapes. Have you ever tried to bend hard flat rock layers? Hard rock does not bend, it breaks. These folded layers of material demonstrate that they were formed by water deposition, and then folded by tectonic activity while they were still wet; and only after they were folded did they dry out into hard rock (Please see Psalm 104:8).



Eighty to eighty-five percent of the rock layers found on the surface of the earth do not have even three of the layers in the “correct [evolutionary] order.”



Research conducted in sedimentation laboratories at Colorado State University and in France proves conclusively that in nature sedimentary layers do not form slowly one on top of the other as evolutionists claim; but, rather that sedimentary layers form by growing sideways as the result of sorting by size and velocity as they are extended by water deposition flowing in a specific direction. This is well documented revolutionary research refuting evolutionary thinking.



Have you ever been to a limestone cave full of stalactites and stalagmites? If you go to Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico, Mammoth Cave in Kentucky or Luray Caverns in Virginia, you will be told that it takes perhaps 10 to 20 million years for a limestone cave to form. Does it?



In the basement of the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C., stalactites up to five feet long were formed in only 45 years. So, I guess it doesn’t take 20 million years to get a limestone cave. At Carlsbad Caverns, the body of a dead bat was found encased in a rapidly growing stalagmite. The body of the bat had not had enough time to decompose before it was covered up. Recent research has demonstrated that in natural caves stalactites and stalagmites grow an average of four inches per year.



Is fossilization a slow process or a fast process? Does it take millions of years to get a fossil? After something is alive and then dies there are only three requirements for fossilization to take place. The dead plant or animal must be buried rapidly. This is obvious in order to prevent decay on the surface. While wind does bury things, it also unburies things just as fast. Only water buries things quickly and buries them well. Next, there must be no oxygen present or decay will still occur. Last, the cavity must remain undisturbed, otherwise oxygen would get in and whatever had not already fossilized would decay.



Fossil fish have been discovered in northern South America and even their gills were preserved. The gills of a dead fish are the first thing to decompose and are usually completely gone within four days. These fish must have been fossilized in less than four days or their gills would not have been preserved.



A man-made hat, a Fedora, was found fossilized after only 40 years on the island of Tasmania. Another hat, a Bowler, was found in New Zealand in 1946. It had fossilized in only 60 years. Next to the Bowler, we found a whole ham fossilized. In 1903, at Eureka Springs, Arkansas, we found a bag full of ground flour; the bag and flour were fossilized. Apparently fossilization must be a rapid process.



There is a category of fossilized material known as polystrate fossils. The word poly means “many” and strate refers to “layers.” These are fossils which are found to penetrate through two or more layers of the fossil record, meaning that they supposedly existed in two or more of the evolutionary time frames. Polystrate fossils are usually tree trunks, stumps or roots, although they may be bone(s).



We find millions of fossilized tree trunks all over the world which “penetrate” multiple layers of the fossil record. Could these trees have lived for millions of years while these layers formed around them? No. The existence of polystrate fossils shows that the fossil record accumulated very quickly.



Human artifacts have been found in rock layers dating supposedly as far back as 400 to 500 million years. Over 300 man-made stone tools were found during the California Gold Rush Period (1850 to 1890). They were found in gold bearing gravels and are cataloged at the University of California, Berkeley. The gravels were supposedly 9 to 55 million years old. In 1937, a ceramic spoon was found in a piece of Pennsylvania medium grade coal. In 1889, a fired clay human figurine was discovered in Nampa, Idaho, 320 feet below the surface of the ground, supposedly making this doll 12 million years old. In 1912, in the city of Thomas, Oklahoma, in the middle of a mid-Pennsylvania aged anthracite coal seam, a small black iron pot was found. According to evolutionists, the coal seam was 300 million supposed years old. In Utah, a fossil hunter found the matching top and bottom pieces of a fossil showing a number 9 1/2 man’s sandal or moccasin print crushing to death two baby Trilobites.



According to evolutionists, the rock is Cambrian Limestone supposedly 500 to 600 million years ago. Near Glen Rose, Texas, a metal hammer head with a wooden handle attached has been found in a layer of sedimentary rock that evolutionists insist is 400 to 500 million years old.



These findings clearly refute the claim by evolutionists that humans evolved from apes four million supposed years ago in East Central Africa.



Proof #3—Evolutionists Claim That Homology “Proves” Evolution. Does It?



The study of similar structures is called Homology. The evolutionists claim that random chance has produced similar structures by the inherent ability of matter to achieve optimum design without an outside guiding force. The evolutionists think that the existence of similar structures is caused by common heritage, a common ancestor. The structure of a man’s hand, a bat’s wing, a whale’s flipper and a horse’s leg are indeed similar. This would also be expected if creation were true. The study of molecular homology does not show, as so often claimed by the liberal media, a 96 to 99% similarity between the genetic structure of apes and humans. In reality the whole DNA of ape and man is not nearly that close.



According to the prestigious evolutionist magazine Nature, September, 2005, and only considering the genes and not all the intergenic components of the genomes of apes and humans (they are only comparing 3% of the total information in the genomes), there is only an 83% similarity of genes between apes and humans. Even more troublesome for evolutionists, apes only produce 29% the same proteins as humans, while 71% of the proteins are different.



To make matters worse for evolutionists, using “their” chosen method of determining genetic similarity between apes and humans; people are 50% the same as bananas, 88% the same as rats, 60% the same as chickens, and 88% the same as Sea-squirts. Using the evolutionists’ chosen method of genetic comparison, who does this make us closer to?



A similar study of Cytochrome C, a universal protein needed for aerobic respiration, clearly shows that every life form is unique, different and unrelated to any other life forms.



The argument from Homology was initially a creationist argument which proponents said that the existence of similar structures showed a common designer not a common ancestry. Designed complex structures and systems do not occur by random chance. When many different engineers are given a design problem and a common goal of finding the “best” design, they will all head in the direction of the same optimum design. Examples of common optimum design are everywhere, for example; cars and ladders.



The similarity of structural appearance between ape and man does not indicate spiritual equivalence. What we do see in nature is a convergence upon a common design. The structural engineering term is “the conservation of engineering design from common desired end function.” Apes and men have a similar design probably because God had similar body function in mind. God had perfect designs and He simply used them in many awe-inspiring variations.



Proof #4—Evolutionists Claim That Ranking “Proves” Evolution. Does It?



Evolutionists claim that “ranking,” the ability to place things in a logical order or sequence by size or shape, proves that evolution is true. Classic illustrations of this technique include the “Horse Series” and “The Road To Man” presentations. The proof method of “ranking,” however, is the second worst method of proof in all of science.



The “Horse Series” was thrown out decades ago and no self-respecting evolutionist would claim it to be true today. Eohippus is now classified as a form of Rock Badger. Eohippus and Equus remains have been found within the same sedimentary rock layer, proving that they lived at the same time.



What does ranking prove? If I line up a room full of people using only their height as the guide for where they belong in the line, what have I proven? I have only proved that people come in different heights and that I have the ability and intelligence to arrange them by height. If I line up a room full of people only by their birth month and day only (not year), what have I proven? I have proven that people are born on different days of the year and that I have the ability and intelligence to arrange them by the month and day of their birth.



Ranking proves nothing about the relationship between any two people in either scenario. I have proven nothing about their heritage. I have not proven that any two of them are related in anyway. I have not proven that any one of them is married to another; that any one of them is a mother, father, son or daughter.



The proof by ranking is a useless method of proof. If I place a unicycle next to bicycle next to motorcycle next to an automobile, did I just prove that unicycles evolved into automobiles? If I place a Sand Dollar next to a Frisbee next to a hubcap next to a wheel, did I just prove that Sand Dollars evolved into wheels? No. I have shown that the “Proof by Ranking” is a totally fallacious argument.



I would also caution anyone to be wary of artists’ renderings as they are dependent upon the preconceived worldview of the artist. For example, while it was later found out that the fossil tooth from what was initially called Nebraska Man had actually come from an extinct species of pig, a drawing was done in 1922 that showed what Nebraska Man, Nebraska Woman, their clothing and tools looked like. If you give the same skull to two different artists, one believes in evolution and the other in creation, the evolutionist might draw a gorilla, but the creationist might draw a human being.



Proof #5—Evolutionists Claim That Vestigial And Retrogressive Organs And Structures “Prove” Evolution. Do They?



Evolutionists claim that the existence of so-called “vestigial organs,” which are those organs that are supposed to be no longer needed because we have evolved past their usefulness, proves that evolution has occurred. The German anatomist Dr. Robert Wiedersheim, in his book The Structure of Man an Index to His Past History, 1895, listed 186 (86 vestigial and 100 retrogressive) organs or structures in the human body which were either no longer needed or were atrophying from lack of use. A partial list of the organs and structures he claimed to be vestigial or retrogressive includes: the appendix, the coccyx, the little toes, the parathyroid, the thymus, the pituitary, the pineal and wisdom teeth.



Charles Darwin claimed, in his book The Origin of Species (1859 and modified later in 1874), that vestigial organs were essential to the proof for evolution and came either from disuse or natural selection. His premise was that, if a nonfunctional organ was present in a man’s body, and was both present and still functional in a monkey’s body, it showed that man descended from monkeys. He claimed that vestigial organs demonstrated the atrophying of organs which were no longer needed as they had been bypassed by evolutionary progression.



The creationist points out that the argument that these organs are vestigial, actually stifles scientific and medical research and discovery. Science can only deal with the present and is not able to say anything about the non-existence of a function. To assert that an organ is vestigial is equal to an attempt to prove that no function exists for that organ. The correct scientific statement would be that no function has as yet been observed for a particular organ.



Today, all 186 of the organs or structures present on Wiedersheim’s list are known to have one or more specific uses or functions. The first group are those organs which have been incorrectly identified as useless but are now known to have a specific function such as the pineal gland, the pituitary gland and the lachrymal glands. The second group are those organs which are small and have only limited roles such as the wisdom teeth, the small toes and certain veins. The third group are those organs or structures which function only during certain stages in life such as the notochord, the posterior cardinal veins and the ducts of Cuvier. The fourth group are those organs which are developmental “remnants” of the reproductive structures of the opposite sex such as male nipples, male Mullerian ducts and female Wolffian ducts. These structures are not evolutionary remnants; rather they form prior to the sexual differentiation that occurs in the development of the human embryo.



If a true vestigial organ or structure did exist, it could show that it was needed and useful at the time of creation; but, that it is either no longer needed, or that it was “switched off” by some genetic change which was triggered by the environmental changes at the time of the Flood of Noah, or that it does not function because of degrading mutations over time (a by-product of the consequences of human sin).



Proof #6—Evolutionists Claim That Embryonic Recapitulation “Proves” Evolution. Does It?



The ardent evolutionist, Dr. Ernst Haeckel (1834-1919), was raised to believe in Christianity. But, after reading Darwin’s The Origin of Species in 1860, he became “Darwin’s Bulldog on the Continent.”



Haeckel was responsible for inventing several grand frauds. By 1868 many evolutionists were worried about the lack of evidence for Darwin’s theory. Haeckel decided to manufacture some evidence. He had begun to draw a “family tree” for mankind. He became worried about the large gap at the bottom between living organisms and nonliving materials. To “complete” his chart, he decided to create an entire series of organisms that he called Moneron (plural for Monera).



These were supposed to be the first single cell organisms to have ever evolved into existence in the supposed primordial sea. He said that they were:



“... not composed of any organs at all, but consist entirely of shapeless, simple homogeneous matter … nothing more than a shapeless, mobile, little lump of mucus or slime, consisting of albuminous combination of carbon.”



In 1868, he published over 30 drawings of these creatures complete with their reproductive cycle illustrated. Dr. Thomas Huxley, M.D., “Darwin’s Bulldog in England,” claimed to have discovered the creature alive in the sediments of the North Atlantic. Unfortunately for them, in 1875, the chemist, John Buchanan, proved that what Huxley had claimed to have found was nothing more than amorphous gypsum that had precipitated out of sea-water when it had come into contact with the alcohol in the container in which Huxley had placed the sample.



Haeckel refused to admit the fraud and reprinted the fraudulent drawings in the edition of his book Natural History of Creation in 1883.



Haeckel’s frauds continued with his attempt to prove that the only difference between apes and people was that people could talk. He even went so far as to have an artist, Gabriel Marx, draw the nonexistent ape-man Pithecanthropus alalus (speechless ape-man). The evidence for any such creature has never been found, but Haeckel claimed that it was the prehuman that had inhabited Europe.



Haeckel promulgated his most famous fraud called “The Biogenetic Law,” or the law of embryonic recapitulation, in his book Natural History of Creation, first published in 1868. This idea is often repeated in a summary statement which says, “ontogeny recapitulates (begets) phylogeny.” This is the idea that the biological development of the individual (Ontogeny) repeats briefly (recapitulates) the evolutionary development of the phylum (phylogeny).



This false concept proposed that in the womb a human baby passes through the various evolutionary stages of previous life forms and is only born human. His idea was that a human baby starts to develop in a fish stage which then passes through an amphibian stage, then a reptilian stage, then a mammalian stage and is only born human.



In his book, The Riddle of the Universe at the Close of the Nineteenth Century, Haeckel wrote:



“When we see that, at a certain stage, the embryos of man and the ape, the dog and the rabbit, the pig and the sheep, though recognizable as higher vertebrates, cannot be distinguished from each other, the fact can only be elucidated by assuming a common parentage.” [Emphasis added]



Charles Darwin believed his disciple’s fraud and continued to claim that the supposed biogenetic law was the single most important evidence for common descent. On page 9 of his book, The Descent of Man, Darwin wrote:



“The [human] embryo itself at a very early period can hardly be distinguished from that of other members of the vertebrate kingdom.” [Emphasis added]



In 1874, Professor Wilhelm His, Sr., uncovered the fraud. Haeckel had stolen the embryonic drawings of two legitimate embryologists, T. L. W. Bischoff (1845) and A. Ecker (1851-1859), and fraudulently changed the drawings to manufacture the evidence for supposed human evolution since he could not support the concept with real anatomical evidence.



In 1875, Haeckel was put on trial by an academic court of his peers at the University of Jena. He was convicted of stealing and lying, and lost his tenured position in the biology department. He confessed:



“… a small portion of my embryo-pictures (possibly 6 or 8 in a hundred) are really (in Dr. Brass’s [one of his critics] sense of the word) “falsified” - all those, namely, in which the disclosed material for inspection is so incomplete or insufficient that one is compelled in a restoration of a connected development series to fill up the gaps through hypotheses, and to reconstruct the missing members through comparative syntheses. What difficulties this task encounters, and how easily the draughtsman may blunder in it, the embryologist alone can judge.” [Emphasis added]



“I should feel utterly condemned … were it not that hundreds of the best observers, and biologists lie under the same charge.” [Emphasis added]



In 1909, Haeckel admitted his forgery in writing.



In an article published in Science magazine, May 15, 1998, Dr. Michael K. Richardson (an evolutionist), wrote:



"The core scientific issue remains unchanged: Haeckel's drawings of 1874 are substantially fabricated. In support of this view, I note that his oldest 'fish' image is made up of bits and pieces from different animals - some of them mythical. It is not unreasonable to characterize this as 'faking.' …
Sadly, it is the discredited 1874 drawings that are used in so many British and American biology textbooks today." [Emphasis added]



M.K. Richardson, Haeckel's Embryos, Science, May 15, 1998.



At the trial in 1875, Haeckel also tried to excuse his actions by saying that spontaneous generation (evolution) was true, not because it had been proven in a laboratory, but because otherwise:



“It would be necessary to believe in a creator.” [Emphasis added]



Keith Stewart Thomson wrote “Ontogeny and Phylogeny Recapitulated” for the American Scientist, Vol. 76, May-June 1988, p. 273:



“Surely the ‘Biogenetic Law’ is as dead as a doornail.”



No evolutionary embryologist would support Haeckel’s “Biogenetic Law” as being a law or even being a valid idea. However, the promulgation of Haeckel’s fraud has been the justification for many of the evils of this world. His fraud continues to be used by abortionists to convince women that they are only aborting a fish. Adolf Hitler found in Haeckel’s fraud the basis for his racism and killed millions using the so-called Biogenetic Law as his justification.



Proof #7—Evolutionists Tell Stories about How Evolution “Could” Have Happened and Claim That These Stories “Prove” Evolution. Do They?



Evolutionists make up pretty stories to try and make their theories sound plausible. Here is one example from Charles Darwin’s own writings in an early edition of The Origin of Species, 1859, p. 184. This section was removed from later editions after Darwin was criticized by his fellow evolutionists for obvious reasons:



“In North America the black bear was seen by Hearne swimming for hours with widely opened mouth, thus catching, like a whale, insects in the water. Even in so extreme a case as this, if the supply of insects were constant, and if better adapted competitors did not already exist in the country, I can see no difficulty in a race of bears being rendered, by natural selection, more and more aquatic in their structure and habits, with larger and larger mouths, till a creature was produced as monstrous as a whale.” [Emphasis added]



Such stories were also contrived by Charles Darwin and Thomas Huxley to promote their views in favor of white supremacy, in support of human racism and in justification of their chauvinistic sexism. In The Descent of Man, 2nd ed., New York; A. L. Burt Co., 1874, p. 178, Darwin wrote:



“At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes … will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.” [Emphasis added]



On page 326, he continued:



“It is generally admitted that with women the powers of intuition, of rapid perception, and perhaps of imitation, are more strongly marked than in man; but some, at least, of these faculties are characteristic of the lower races, and therefore of a past and lower state of civilization. The chief distinction in the intellectual powers of the two sexes is shown by man attaining to a higher eminence, in whatever he takes up, than woman can attain—whether requiring deep thought, reason, or imagination, or merely the use of the senses and hands.” [Emphasis added]



In echoing Darwin’s sentiments recorded above, Thomas Huxley wrote in his Lay Sermons, Addresses, and Reviews, New York: Appleton, 1871 p. 20:



“No rational man, cognizant of the facts, believes that the average negro is the equal, still less the superior, of the white man. And if this be true, it is simply incredible that, when all his disabilities are removed, and our prognathous relative has a fair field and no favor, as well as no oppressor, he will be able to compete successfully with his bigger-brained and smaller-jawed rival, in a contest which is to be carried on by thoughts and not by bites.” [Emphasis added]



Henry Fairfield Osborn was a disciple of Thomas Huxley. He would eventually become the President of the American Museum of Natural History’s Board of Trustees from 1908 to 1933. He would continue to strongly promote the evolutionary theories and the racism of his mentor. In an article in the Museum’s own magazine, ("The Evolution of Human Races," Natural History, April 1980, p. 129--reprinted from January/February 1926 issue) he wrote:



“The Negroid stock is even more ancient than the Caucasian and Mongolians, as may be proved by an examination not only of the brain, of the hair, of the bodily characteristics ... but of the instincts, the intelligence. The standard of intelligence of the average adult Negro is similar to that of the eleven-year-old-youth of the species Homo sapiens.” [Emphasis added]



There are many other such stories which are promulgated by modern evolutionists. The made-up story that the fossil bearing layers are in “the right order” thus proving evolution is one. The Geological Time Column or Time Scale is contrived by rearranging the layers found around the world and assembling a mythological column. 75 to 80 percent of the earth’s surface is covered by sedimentary rock containing fossils. Yet, 80 to 85 percent of those sedimentary layers do not have even three of the layers shown in the typical school textbook diagram of the Column.



Evolutionists sometimes have a problem swallowing their own stories at times about this myth. Concerning the very method used by evolutionists to “date” their fossil finds, as well as the layers in which they occur, Dr. Niles Eldredge of the American Museum of Natural History drew attention to the problem of circular reasoning used by evolutionists in his book, Time Frames: The Rethinking of Darwinian Evolution and the Theory of Punctuated Equilibria New York: Simon and Schuster, 1985, p. 51-52, with the following statement:



“[Evolutionary] Paleontologists cannot operate this way. There is simply no way simply to look at a fossil and say how old it is unless you know the age of the rocks it comes from. ...”



“And this poses something of a problem: if we date the rocks by their fossils, how can we then turn around and talk about patterns of evolutionary change through time in the fossil record?”



Story-telling can reach its zenith in double-talk. Here is an example from Dr. J. E. O’Rourke writing for the American Journal of Science. ("Pragmatism versus Materialism in Stratigraphy," American Journal of Science, Vol. 276, January 1976, p. 51.)



"The rocks do date the fossils, but the fossils date the rocks more accurately. Stratigraphy cannot avoid this kind of reasoning if it insists on using only temporal concepts, because circularity is inherent in the derivation of time scales." [Emphasis added]



As a final example of story-telling, let us talk about comets. Anyone may check this out for themselves with the aid of a personal computer. Just buy a program on the solar system. The computer will show you where the comets are at any time - past, present or future. We have never found a short-period comet, defined as a comet with an orbit of less than 200 years, that could exist in orbit around the sun for more than about 10,000 years without being destroyed. If the solar system is more than 10,000 years old, then we should no longer have any comets. The few long-period comets that exist would be destroyed in less than 100,000 years.



What is the evolutionary response to this information? The response comes from a Dutch evolutionary astronomer named Dr. Jan Oort who theorized that there “must” be a cloud of pre-comets located one to one and a half light years out from the sun beyond the orbit of Pluto. As comets are being destroyed in the inner solar system, the gravitational pull of the sun then supposedly causes some of these pre-comets to be pulled out of this “cloud” into the solar system, thus producing a continuous stream of new comets to take the place of the old ones which are continuously being destroyed.



The obvious question would be, “Have we seen the supposed Oort Cloud?” No! No confirmed direct observations of the supposed Oort cloud have ever been made. Evolutionary astronomers only believe it to be the source of all comets entering the inner solar system.



It is only a story made up to placate the problem of only having short-period comets in the solar system.



Such stories have no part in intellectually honest scientific endeavors nor in a Christian Biblical worldview.



Proof #8—Evolutionists Claim That the Earth and Universe Are Very Old, Thus “Proving” Evolution. Is the Universe Old?



Evolutionists claim that the earth is obviously old and that the fossil materials are the result of slow and gradual accumulation of sedimentary layers over supposed millions and billions of years of time. If this were true, why are there no meteorites found in the sedimentary layers?



Every year about 600 significant meteorites pass through the earth’s atmosphere and hit the earth. On average, 30% of them will hit land and be preserved. If the sedimentary layers covering the earth are supposed to represent 600 million years of earth history, we should find 108 billion meteorites in the sedimentary layers.



Wouldn’t the lack of meteorites within the fossil materials indicate that the layers all formed during the one year event called Noah’s Flood?



Evolutionists claim that the universe is obviously old because it is supposedly 12 to 20 billion light-years in radius, and for light to travel such a distance the universe must be equally old. The major reason for this conclusion is the acceptance of one of the Big Bang “theories” and that any previous explosion would cause an expanding universe. The “proof” usually given for accepting an expanding universe is based upon the observed red shift of light, caused by the Doppler Effect.



The idea being that if stars and galaxies are moving away from our solar system due to some Big Bang, then the color of the light they emit will be “stretched” or elongated toward the red “end” of the visible light spectrum. The Doppler Effect would also cause light being emitted from an object moving towards us (there are only a few of those) to be shifted (compressed to a shorter length) towards the blue “end” of the light spectrum.



Most people are “taken in” by this reasoning. However, never confuse distance as measured in light-years as equal to time, it is only a distance! I know of at least eight valid scientific explanations which could, in part or in whole, account for a universe which is 12 to 20 billion light years across and still only be 6,000 years old.



The following is a list of short explanations for the physical evidence of red shift of light as observed in the universe, without having to have the universe expand. I am not endorsing any one of these ideas as being the correct one. There may be truth in any one of these; or a combination of these; or even in another idea which we haven’t yet understood, but is actually correct. These explanations are just food for thought until the Creator chooses to reveal the actual truth to us.



1. When God created the Sun, the Moon and the stars He could have simply created all the interconnecting light beams at the same time. Although not totally satisfying, and while it begs many questions, this is a possibility. I definitely do not endorse this view.



2. If Einstein were correct and space is curved, then light could travel across a 12 to 20 billion light-year distance in a matter of a few thousand years.



3. Space is not a true vacuum. As light travels across space it will eventually hit gas or dust particles. When it does, the object will be warmed by radiant heating. The light will then be re-emitted from a warmer object. This in turn will cause the light to be shifted toward the “redder” “end” of the light spectrum. Thus the light will appear to us as though red shift had taken place, when indeed it has not.



4. Einstein also said that light is bent by the force of gravity as it travels by “heavy objects,” meaning stars and galaxies. Today, we know he was correct. We have large quantities of photos, many taken by the Hubble astronomy satellite, which clearly show that light is often bent by gravity as it travels through space. Gravity actually acts as a lens (called a Gravitational Lens) and bends light the same way that a glass lens bends visible light. If the speed of light is a constant, when light is bent it must travel a greater distance, and in order to maintain speed it must shift to a “redder” (a longer) wave length; producing a red shift without an expanding universe.



5. A fairly recent idea in science is that perhaps the speed of light is not a true constant, which it is not. Please see the article on our website at www.creationworldview.org concerning the last few decades of research on this subject. The speed of light only appears to be constant today, but has in fact, been faster in the past.



The speed of light has been measured for over 325 years and the data supports such an idea. It all goes back to 1982 in an article written by Dr. Barry Setterfield of Australia entitled “The Velocity of Light and the Age of the Universe.” The data indicates that the speed of light could have been nearly infinite in speed less than 10,000 years ago, thus allowing light to traverse a 12 to 20 billion light-year distance in only a few thousand years.



There are evolutionary scientists who agree with this conclusion. In 1987, the Russian theoretical physicist, Dr. V. S. Troitskii working at the Radio-physical Research Institute in Nizhniy Novgorod, Russia, postulated that a huge decay in the speed of light had occurred over time. Dr. Troitskii wrote that the speed of light could have been 10 million times faster in the past compared to what it is today. His work is found in the British journal Astrophysics and Space Science 139 (1987) 389-411 "Physical Constants and Evolution of the Universe."



In addition, since 1999 experiments have been conducted by evolution believing physicists in Holland, Germany, Australia, and the United States (Texas A & M, Princeton and Harvard) demonstrating that light can be accelerated and decelerated. One research group claimed to have stopped light and then started it again. Light speed is not a constant and a light-year is at best a variable yardstick and at worse a useless yardstick.



6. Dr. Russell Humphreys has recently proposed that the solution is found by using Relativity Theory and the Scripture. Although too complex for this short explanation, he proposes that since the creation, the universe has experienced “Gravitational Time Dilation.” While this idea will be argued for a long time to come, many of his ideas are sound in concept and could help to explain why we have a universe that is only 6,000 years old, but appears to be 12 to 20 billion light-years across.



7. The Second Law of Thermodynamics stipulates that all physical entities spontaneously degrade over time. Why should light be the only physical entity in the entire university that would be exempt from the Second Law? It cannot be exempt! Light is subject to the effect of the Second Law; therefore, light speed must diminish over time. This would cause light to "slow down" in its frequency, which, in turn, would appear to us as red shift even though no red shift has occurred.



8. The Law of Gravity affects every location in the universe. There is no such thing as “zero gravity.” Even in the most remote spot in the universe microgravity still exists. It is not a question of whether gravity exists at any one place; it is only a question of how much gravity exists at any one place.



Everyone knows that the speed of light defers depending upon the medium that it is traveling through, i.e., light travels slightly slower through water than through air or a vacuum. As light travels through the universe it passes through areas that have much higher and much lower concentrations of gravity, i.e., gravity is less dense between galaxies, much denser inside galaxies and very dense inside solar systems.



We are only able to measure the speed of light inside our solar system. We are not able to measure it between stars, solar systems, galaxies nor throughout the universe. Light speed should be faster in areas of lower gravity density and slower when passing through areas of higher gravity density. We may think of this as areas of more or less resistance.



Consequently, the speed of light would have been much faster initially as it began to cross the universe, but would be slowing down over time. Finally, it would slow to the speed that we perceive it here and now.



Evolutionary claims that the universe and all it contains are old go on and on. The truth is that such claims are unsubstantiated.



There is not one irrefutable piece of evidence to “prove” that the earth and universe are old. There are no reliable radiometric dating technologies. Carbon 14, Potassium-Argon, Rubidium-Strontium, etc. do not work! These highly relied upon methods start with five false assumptions, and Carbon 14 starts with seven false assumptions. They are totally unreliable.



Paleontology is no help to evolutionists. You cannot date the fossils based upon the sedimentary rock layers that they were found in; and then turn around and date the layers based upon the fossils that they contain. The claims of great age are based solely upon the evolutionists’ belief system.



There are over 200 scientific Geochronometers (earth time clocks/universe time clocks) that indicate that the earth, solar system, galaxy and universe are young, much too young for evolution to be a possibility. A few examples of these are as follows:



1. The rapid decay of the earth’s magnetic field

2. The existence of high pressure natural gas contained within sedimentary (porous) rock layers

3. The existence of Short-period Comets

4. The rapid heat loss of the earth and moon

5. The rapid recession rate of the moon

6. The “lumpy” rings of Saturn, Neptune and Uranus

7. The existence of Barred Spiral Galaxies

8. The rapid continental erosion rates

9. The salt content of the oceans

10. There is too much Helium contained within the earth’s crustal rocks

11. The accumulation of about 4,500 years of sediments at the mouths of all major rivers

12. The active volcanoes on Jupiter’s moon Io, and Saturn’s moon Enceladus

13. The existence of Thorium 230 and Uranium 236 on the surface of the moon

14. The annual addition on average of one cubic mile of Juvenile Water to the earth’s surface

15. Fresh dinosaur blood and flesh have been found inside T. rex bones

16. There are far too few Supernovas in the universe

17. The existence of millions of tightly folded unbroken sedimentary rock layers around the world

18. The scarcity of meteorites in the sedimentary rock layers containing fossils

19. The lack of Helium in the earth’s atmosphere

20. The rapid growth of stalactites and stalagmites

21. The lack of soil horizons between sedimentary rock layers

22. The lack of V-shaped erosion marks in sedimentary rock layers

23. The lack of animal and plant burrows in sedimentary rock layers

24. The existence of billions of polystrate fossils in the sedimentary rock layers

25. “The Winding Up Dilemma” - galaxies rotate too fast to be billions of years old



If there were only one Geochronometer showing that the earth or universe were young, then it could be claimed that creationists are wrong. If there were several Geochronometers that show that the earth and universe are young, then we would have established an interesting trend. When there are over 200 Geochronometers that are in agreement; that the earth, solar system, galaxy and universe are young; then we have substantial “proof” contrary to the opinion of evolutionists.



Proof #9 - Evolutionists Claim That Genetic Studies “Prove” Evolution. Do They?



Evolutionists claim that the study of genetics demonstrates the mechanism by which progressive "upward" macroevolution takes place. The Laws of Genetics, however, are conservative, not creative. No evolutionary believing scientist may speak and have evolution occur at his beckoned command; nor have we ever seen an evolutionary believing scientist speak and see a new gene appear at the bottom of a test tube.



What does the creationist claim? Modern genetic research has shown that there is even a repair mechanism within the genetic materials to repair slightly damaged information and take corrective measures to combat mutational copying errors. Anything less than a perfect copy proves, in the long run, to be less fit rather than more fit for survival.



It takes phenomenal faith to believe that the DNA molecule could come into existence by random chance. How much more faith does it take to believe that a corrective mechanism to the first randomly generated mechanism could arise by random chance?



What if we were to spend billions of dollars and utilize many millions of man hours and finally "create life" in a test tube; what would we have proven? We would have proven that it takes a great amount of outside intelligence; massive amounts of information and energy; an ordering process to "create life;" and, that it did not happen by random chance.



Proof #10 (?) - The “Tenth” Proof?: Evolutionists Claim That the Imperfection of Nature Proves Evolution. Does It?



There is a new “tenth proof” for evolution that is being fostered by some evolutionists. Although it is not being widely supported, it is accepted by several very prominent personalities in the field of evolutionary theorists.



The new "Proof" goes like this: plants and animals are not perfect, they contain imperfections; a perfect creator would make things that
are perfect; therefore, the existence of life that is imperfect shows that there was no creator.



The main proponent of this idea was the late Marxist from Harvard, Dr. Stephen J. Gould. In an article for Discover magazine in May, 1981, he wrote:



“The second argument - that the imperfection of nature reveals evolution - strikes many people as ironic, for they feel that evolution should be most elegantly displayed in the nearly perfect adaptation expressed by some organisms - the camber of a gull’s wing, or butterflies that cannot be seen in ground litter because they mimic leaves so precisely. But perfection could be imposed by a wise creator or evolved by natural selection. Perfection covers the tracks of past history. And past history - the evidence of descent - is the mark of evolution. Evolution lies exposed in the imperfections that record a history of descent.” [Emphasis added]



Dr. Gould then attached this “proof from imperfection” to the argument from Homology. Homology may be defined as: similar structures among creatures are evidence that they had a common ancestor with the same feature. Homology is actually evidence that the Creator chose to use similar structures to achieve similar results.



Gould continued in his Discover article:



“Why should a rat run, a bat fly, a porpoise swim, and I type this essay with structures built of the same bones unless we all inherited them from a common ancestor? An engineer, starting from scratch, could design better limbs in each case.”



This is a great faith statement. The logic is most peculiar and convoluted. Evolutionists have dogmatically believed that the mechanisms of natural selection, survival of the fittest, Uniformitarianism, etc., were causing life forms to irreversibly evolve in an “upward” progression. Now, evolutionists would want us to believe that you can have your cake and eat it, too. They want to blame the imperfections of life upon the nonexistence of a creator rather than upon the happenstance of random chance.



It is impossible for evolutionists to make such dogmatic statements about things that are “perfect” or “imperfect.” How would a human being know if something were perfect? We have no basis, no standard, by which to make such a claim. We strive for “optimum” designs, but we are incapable of knowing if we have achieved them. Even if we derive mathematical constraints they were subjectively derived. Ultimately, “perfect” and “optimum” for a human design is subjective and nothing more than opinion.



A “perfect” creation is one that completely fulfills the purpose of its creator. Dr. Gould could not create a living cell, much less a rat’s forelimb. Furthermore, he was totally ignorant of the global, cosmic and eternal purposes of the Creation. Therefore, Gould’s opinion about how they should have been designed was hopelessly arrogant, ignorant and irrelevant.



There are lots of complex structures, these structures contain many similarities, they are clearly well designed, yet evolutionists claim that they show evidence of less than perfect design. Since all the complex systems whose origin we have observed were created by intelligent agents (human beings), since they contain countless similar structures, and are virtually all "imperfect," the best, most
scientific, explanation of complex structures whose origin we have not observed, e.g., the forelimbs of rats, the wings of bats, is that they, too, were created by an intelligent agent. Appeal to random processes as an agent is not even remotely supported by the present data.



Every "Proof" of evolution involves willful deception, just as God says it will.



In the same way, evolutionists will speak of “convergence,” the supposed reason that explains why some creatures have very similar structures but cannot be directly related (wings for insects and mammals). Evolutionists use “convergence” when they cannot fit things on their tree of evolutionary ascent. Homology only proves evolution if it were to come from common ancestry, but when it cannot you call it “convergence” by natural selection toward an “optimum” design. Evolutionists want it both ways and they pick the one that suites them at the time.



We have never seen a complex system built or assembled by random chance. Mutations are harmful and produce negative outcomes. Mutations are the result of the “bondage to decay.” The evolutionists’ beliefs are illogical, irrational, unreasonable and not based on evidence.



The evolutionist is missing the point of what is the better substantiated view of the known data. The correct view would be that the Creator did in fact make all things perfect, but that something happened after the creation; sin entered into the universe. This event brought imperfection into the creation and like a snowball rolling downhill imperfection has continuously gotten worse.



There is hope, however, for we are told that there will come a time when the Creator will enter into human history and restore imperfection back to perfection once again (2 Peter 3:3-7).

dale said...

Rob Penn,
You said,
"No way that I can know 100% certainly, but I have about an 80% certainty of it."

Good, that keeps us on equal footing. Thanks for your candor.

I do trust my instinct that you would be a great person to work with. You exhibit some great reasoning skills.

Thanks. /d

Irukandji said...

@ Living as One Freed:

And why the 'honestly'? Have you not been up-front with us til this point?

Indeed. As well you know, until now I have been masquerading as Doctor Professor Einstein McAtom, Princess of Protons, Queen of Quarks, Empress of Electrons, and fourteen-time winner of the Nobel Prize in physics.

But it's time to stop living the lie. It's time to admit that I'm a linguist with some training in biology. You'll still love me, right?

forgiven37 said...

Rob Penn said...
@ forgiven37:

We have something more reliable than the science community that keep changing their minds.

In all fairness, we need to admit two things:

1) That science changes is a good thing. People used to believe the earth was flat. Science changed and now we know it's round. That science makes new discoveries all the time means it's doing it's job, and that discrediting science because "it can't make up it's mind" shows either a lack of understanding about what science is and does or a desperation in attempts to disprove that science.


B) Christian Theology changes a lot as well. See "Reformation," "New Paul Perspective," and "Denomination."

Does that mean that Christian Theology is bad because "it can't make up it's mind?"

Rob penn, I wasn't talking about science in general I was talking about evolution. Wait the earth isn't flat ! Oh never mind my humor seems to be over the heads of some here. I fully understand the benefits from science and support many Christian scientist. Ken Ham being one of them. So no I have neither a lack of understanding or desperation to disprove science. Thanks for your lack of understanding though.

As for question #2 NO Christian Theology doesn't change, man tries to change it to suite his needs. I take the Bible,The Whole Bible as Truth and it NEVER CHANGES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

dale said...

Rob Penn,

That is not true.
Esubius himself stated that there were verses in the newer versions that were not in the translations that were in his posession.

Remember, the books of the bible were slapped together under the authority of a Pagan trying to unite his kingdom. Along with the compililation of the "canon" they decided the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

It seems counterintuitive to me that you can accept the assemblilage of the bible to a Pagan, Constantine, and yet reject all the rst of the "canon" that was compiled under his authority in 1325.

forgiven37 said...

flinging dust said...

@ jason:

please forgive me for stepping into the conversation between you and forgiven 37 but i would like to point out something....

@ forgiven 37:

yes, there are transitional fossils and there is a link on my website that shows a video that explains evolution in layman's terms that you might find helpful in your understanding.

thanks

fd

the following is from answers in Genesis and was written by Dr.Ken Ham.

Past and present

We all exist in the present—and the facts all exist in the present. When one is trying to understand how the evidence came about (Where did the animals come from? How did the fossil layers form? etc.), what we are actually trying to do is to connect the past to the present.

However, if we weren’t there in the past to observe events, how can we know what happened so we can explain the present? It would be great to have a time machine so we could know for sure about past events.

Christians of course claim they do, in a sense, have a ‘time machine’. They have a book called the Bible which claims to be the Word of God who has always been there, and has revealed to us the major events of the past about which we need to know.

On the basis of these events (Creation, Fall, Flood, Babel, etc.), we have a set of presuppositions to build a way of thinking which enables us to interpret the evidence of the present.

Evolutionists have certain beliefs about the past/present that they presuppose, e.g. no God (or at least none who performed acts of special creation), so they build a different way of thinking to interpret the evidence of the present.

Thus, when Christians and non-Christians argue about the evidence, in reality they are arguing about their interpretations based on their presuppositions.

That’s why the argument often turns into something like:

‘Can’t you see what I’m talking about?’

‘No, I can’t. Don’t you see how wrong you are?’

‘No, I’m not wrong. It’s obvious that I’m right.’

‘No, it’s not obvious.’ And so on.

These two people are arguing about the same evidence, but they are looking at the evidence through different glasses.

It’s not until these two people recognize the argument is really about the presuppositions they have to start with, that they will begin to deal with the foundational reasons for their different beliefs. A person will not interpret the evidence differently until they put on a different set of glasses—which means to change one’s presuppositions.

I’ve found that a Christian who understands these things can actually put on the evolutionist’s glasses (without accepting the presuppositions as true) and understand how they look at evidence. However, for a number of reasons, including spiritual ones, a non-Christian usually can’t put on the Christian’s glasses—unless they recognize the presuppositional nature of the battle and are thus beginning to question their own presuppositions.

It is of course sometimes possible that just by presenting ‘evidence’, you can convince a person that a particular scientific argument for creation makes sense ‘on the facts’. But usually, if that person then hears a different interpretation of the same evidence that seems better than yours, that person will swing away from your argument, thinking they have found ‘stronger facts’.

However, if you had helped the person to understand this issue of presuppositions, then they will be better able to recognize this for what it is—a different interpretation based on differing presuppositions—i.e. starting beliefs.

As a teacher, I found that whenever I taught the students what I thought were the ‘facts’ for creation, then their other teacher would just re-interpret the facts. The students would then come back to me saying, ‘Well sir, you need to try again.’

However, when I learned to teach my students how we interpret facts, and how interpretations are based on our presuppositions, then when the other teacher tried to reinterpret the facts, the students would challenge the teacher’s basic assumptions. Then it wasn’t the students who came back to me, but the other teacher! This teacher was upset with me because the students wouldn’t accept her interpretation of the evidence and challenged the very basis of her thinking.

What was happening was that I had learned to teach the students how to think rather than just what to think. What a difference that made to my class! I have been overjoyed to find, sometimes decades later, some of those students telling me how they became active, solid Christians as a result.

and I didn't even have to bring up banana's.

Pvblivs said...

Robb Penn:

     The NAS has the "every." I am not sure of the exact wording without having it in front of me. The contradiction is slightly different in KJV. In KJV Chapter 2, it says "5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." That is, there was no vegetation before man was created. Chapter 1 has "12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day." As man is supposedly not created until day 6, this is still a contradiction. Hmm. Different versions have different contradictions. That still doesn't speak well for "free from error."
     "We also know that the culture of the people punishes those things by death, and their works are all burned and destroyed. There's no way that such editing could possibly have survived; In the scenario that it was a sham, as you say, the people being duped would have killed any such editors."
     There is a slight problem with your claim. If the leaders had authorized an editing, the previous editions would be the ones to be destroyed. Anyone trying to hold to original claims would have faced the punishment.

Jason said...

@forgiven:

Ken Ham is an idiot. Sorry, but there is no nice way to say it. His view is basically the same thing as saying, "I'm racist because my daddy raised me that way." In other words, stupid. Thanks for playing.

Rob Penn said...

@ dale:

Remember, the books of the bible were slapped together under the authority of a Pagan trying to unite his kingdom. Along with the compililation of the "canon" they decided the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

It seems counterintuitive to me that you can accept the assemblilage of the bible to a Pagan, Constantine, and yet reject all the rst of the "canon" that was compiled under his authority in 1325.



Constatnine had nothing to do with the cannonization of the New Testament. There were NO books discussed at the Council of Nicea. From the Council of Nicea, we got the Nicean Creed.


Check out a guy by the name of Bruce Metzger. Even Bart Erhman cites his work, and Bart's not even a Christian any more (from what I've gathered). Metzger's work is the authority on canonology, whether you're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, or otherwise.

flinging dust said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Rob Penn said...

@ forgiven37:

Rob penn, I wasn't talking about science in general I was talking about evolution. Wait the earth isn't flat ! Oh never mind my humor seems to be over the heads of some here. I fully understand the benefits from science and support many Christian scientist. Ken Ham being one of them. So no I have neither a lack of understanding or desperation to disprove science. Thanks for your lack of understanding though.

So then, it's ok for other fields of science to "change it's mind," but not for evolution?


As for question #2 NO Christian Theology doesn't change, man tries to change it to suite his needs. I take the Bible,The Whole Bible as Truth and it NEVER CHANGES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Bible doesn't change. Duh. The way Christians have read the Bible has changed a lot, and to deny that is simply silly.

Rob Penn said...

@ dale:

Good, that keeps us on equal footing. Thanks for your candor.

I do trust my instinct that you would be a great person to work with. You exhibit some great reasoning skills.

Thanks. /d


No prob. Reason is one of God's gifts to us, and I intend to find mine somewhere in my brain before I die.

Thanks for the compliment. ^_^

Jason said...

forgiven:

I'm afraid there was some confusion on my part as to what universe we respectively occupy. I assumed, for no reason, that you occupy the same universe I do. Obviously, after reading your last post, I was wrong. Please forgive me. I'm sure that wherever you exist, the article you posted makes sense, so I will just have to respectuflly leave it at that, and I hope you can respectfully allow me to exist in this universe, where so many transitional fossils exist, not to mention the evidence from genetics (for instance, HERVs), geology, biogeography, taxonomy (particularly the nested heirarchy into which Earth life can be categorized), and so forth, that only someone deep in denial can claim they don't.

I sincerely apologize for this mix up and I hope it doesn't affect our relationship.

Your Friend,

Jason

Rob Penn said...

@ Tinina Marie:

Well, I agree with the fact that some research can be done. I believe a mature Christian can spend time reading other resource materials. If you are mature Christian you should have gained the spirit of discernment. However, my desire is to see those who don’t believe saved

Agreed. I've met those Christians who have all the same things to say as a Doctor in Biblical Languages, but haven't had any education past highschool.

However, I also believe that I can give the spirit more to work with in my head if I look up on things. More things that he can call to my recollection, more things that he can peice together, and more ammunition in general.


I don't think the bible is written just specifically to a dead audience, as you state. Where does God say he expects that of us? I understand your point regarding the age in which the bible was written, however If
God knew us before we were formed, then he would have written the bible for anyone who chooses to read it.


Halfway agreed. The Bible is perfect for teaching everyone, but people of a different culture, language, etc. from those who penned it will have to study to understand things like their choice of rhetorical tools and what they mean and how they look, or figures of speach, and such.

All of the context that they assume at the time is gone now, and we have to find it. That's why we have verses that say things like "study to show yourselves aproved to properly handle the word of God."


How do you share the Gospel with others? How do you tell others your testimony for Christ?

That depends on the listener and what type of person they are. There's not a set method that communicates well to all humans, because there are many forms of communication and not every one uses the same ones.

There have been times when I've had to take the WOTM in-your-face approach. I've had a LOT of quasi-academic discussions, particularly with some of my fraternity brothers. I've done my fair share of the "living out the gospel" attempt. I've done MORE than my fair share of music. It's a family thing.

Here's the main point, in the words of some alumnus from our campus ministry who are just finishing up their M-Div.s;

"We can not only educate people about who Christ is by the enumeration of facts. The evidence of the gospels must be brought by the witnesses in community. Christ said  “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:35). Therefore, at the conjunction of education about the gospel and experience of people living it out, the evidence of the Gospel is proven."

I know that WOTM has work to do from God, because they bear fruit. Not my style of ministry, because it's hard to do any real discipling with that kind of street preaching, but it has it's place and there are people who won't know God without it.


Honestly, I don’t need to go to any other resource or source material to understand what God is trying to say to me through the word. I do, however, stay abreast of different things that will affect the kingdom of God from an evangelism standpoint. As a follower of Christ, we are called to share the gospel. How could I share the Gospel with someone, and then give them a list of footnotes of other resources? To me that is what the world does, in order to support their stance they provide multiple documents, quotes and resources. With the bible, if you are truly seeking an understanding of the word with an open heart you don’t need any other resource material.

When Jesus talked to the scholars of his day, he debated them like scholars. When he talked to the lay man, he told parables and preached. When he talked to the woman at the well, he made some conversastion and simply gave her human interaction for a brief moment before getting to the point.

Here's the thing, we have to be able to communicate with the world. We are told to tell people about Christ, and we should all take a page from Jesus' book and tell them in a way that they will hear.

God tells us to do our homework, and when there are non-believers out there who know our faith better than us, it's a sad thing. I'm not talking about individuals, here. I'm talking generally. The church, as a whole, has a LOT of studying to do, because we've got a case of the stupids and the world sees that.


You also mentioned that you didn’t agree with Mr. Comfort’s definition of a false convert. How do you define a false convert?

I define a false convert as one who pretends to follow Jesus, but never really started a relationship with him.

I think if you were to ask Ray, he would say the same thing, but he takes that definition to places that I don't believe it belongs.

I believe that there are many many Christians in the Catholic Church. I do not believe that Catholocism, in general, is not Christian. I don't agree with their doctrine, or I'd be Catholic, but I don't have any reason to believe that they are not Christian.

For those who used to be Christian and lost their faith, Ray indiscriminately stamps that lable on their heads. I don't believe that such a lable belongs to every one who says that they were Christian at one time, but aren't any more. Romans 6 and 7 talks about Slaves of God (True Christians) becomming slaves of sin. There's also that Parable of the sower, and his one seed that falls among the thorns. It takes root and grows, but is choked out by thorns. When Jesus explains it, he says that that seed represents those who "recieve the word with joy," and then are choked out by the cares of this world.

ShiVeR said...

forgiven37, Thanks for posting that, really shows the utter foolishness of evolutionary thinking.

But 1 question, are you saying evolution may not be true? Then that would make it a....lie! Who knew?
It's like they replaced the truth of God for a lie, hmmm, where have I read that?

Rob Penn said...

@ Pvblivs:

Different versions have different contradictions. That still doesn't speak well for "free from error."

I am not denying that there is a contradiction between chapters 1 and 2 of Genesis. I never have. At least, not since long before I started posting here.

I want to know which versions are edited to try and remove the error. I can't find it, and if they're there then I should look at it, because I don't want to be THAT Christian who says "Well, you're just wrong and The Bible says so and neener neener neener."


There is a slight problem with your claim. If the leaders had authorized an editing, the previous editions would be the ones to be destroyed. Anyone trying to hold to original claims would have faced the punishment.

The problem with that is every Hebrew child went to school. Their schooling was they had to memorize the Torah. After that, there would be a process of trying to find a master to be discipled under if they wanted to be a scribe, or something of the sort, but every child had to memorize the Torah.

No one would be able to get away with trying to re-write the Torah.

And in the NT, while we lack orriginal Copies, we have copies that date back to the time when actual eye-whitnesses were still alive. No one would have been able to change anything while the eye-whitnesses were still living, because there would be a lot of protest then, too. as for after the eye-whitnesses all died, every single copy we have remains unchanged.

ShiVeR said...

forgiven37 said... "As for question #2 NO Christian Theology doesn't change, man tries to change it to suite his needs. I take the Bible,The Whole Bible as Truth and it NEVER CHANGES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

AMEN brother. But if I may add just one more thing (!). I think you missed one.

ShiVeR said...

Rob Penn said... "However, I also believe that I can give the spirit more to work with in my head if I look up on things. More things that he can call to my recollection, more things that he can peice together, and more ammunition in general."

You don't give the Holy Spirit more to work with, you were dead in your sins remember, He doesn't need your knowledge for ammunition.

AND,"When Jesus talked to the scholars of his day, he debated them like scholars. When he talked to the lay man, he told parables and preached. When he talked to the woman at the well, he made some conversastion and simply gave her human interaction for a brief moment before getting to the point."

Jesus never debated with the scholars and religious elite, He proclaimed the truth, told them of their hypocracy, and hid the truth from them by use of parables. Jesus NEVER changed His "style" of preaching to suit His audience.

AND,"I believe that there are many many Christians in the Catholic Church. I do not believe that Catholocism, in general, is not Christian. I don't agree with their doctrine, or I'd be Catholic, but I don't have any reason to believe that they are not Christian."

Unbelievable, ok, Roman Catholics don't believe in justification by faith alone, scripture alone, grace alone, in Christ alone, nor do they give all glory to God. They are not Christian. The bible clearly teaches the 5 Solas as ESSENTIAL for salvation, anyone who has dispute with anyone of the Solas has right to question the validity of their salvation. They may have head knowledge and really, really believe themselves saved, but are very weak or lost. It always comes down to the saved and unsaved, the found and the lost, the living and the dead. I push this issue because there is so much bad theology in North America amidst such good theology, and its frustrating to see the Joel Olsteens, and Rick Warrens teach their false, twisted doctorine while what people need is the true unaltered Gospel. We would see at least a coup[le things happen, one some might get saved, and two persecution would fall on our churches, and purge them of the false, oh that God would purify His church.


You had said in another post that Genesis was poetry, can you tell me where the peom ends and history begins? Can you give another example in the bible where this kind of peotry is used? Do you believe it outlines the historical basis of the creation of the world? Do you believe Adam was the first man, and sinned, and corrupted the world and mankind? Do you beleieve Jesus is the second Adam? Do you take the bible literally? Or are you in the liberal camp?

forgiven37 said...

ShiVeR said...

forgiven37 said... "As for question #2 NO Christian Theology doesn't change, man tries to change it to suite his needs. I take the Bible,The Whole Bible as Truth and it NEVER CHANGES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

AMEN brother. But if I may add just one more thing (!). I think you missed one.

thanks !

my response to #1 was that I don't think that science is useless it is actually very helpful.but to think that only atheist can use it is dumb. science backs up the BIBLE !

forgiven37 said...

THAT WAS MY POINT THERE Robb Penn. Science doesn't back up evolution it discredits it all together.

forgiven37 said...

jason,

Transitional just don't exist sorry, I did look at the examples that you mentioned though. Part of you faulty logic comes from the unreliability of carbon dating. I did bother to read your post did you even take the time to read mine ? Never mind how you feel about Ken Ham he makes a good point. Read this part.

However, if you had helped the person to understand this issue of presuppositions, then they will be better able to recognize this for what it is—a different interpretation based on differing presuppositions—i.e. starting beliefs.

We can agree to disagree and let it go at that. Thanks for the post and your time.
respectfully,
Mark

forgiven37 said...

Robb Penn said.


I believe that there are many many Christians in the Catholic Church. I do not believe that Catholocism, in general, is not Christian. I don't agree with their doctrine, or I'd be Catholic, but I don't have any reason to believe that they are not Christian.

Robb look at their version of the ten commandments. They took out #2 and split #10 into 2 parts.

They "confess" their sins instead of repenting and turning away from them.

They pray to Mary and the Saints.

They put Christ back on the cross every time they take mass.

What's not to understand ?

Are they good people ? Yes. I have many Catholic friends but I do think that they are in trouble.

you do seem like an intelligent fellow do your own homework and come to your own conclusions.

thanks,
mark

forgiven37 said...

ShiVeR said...

forgiven37, Thanks for posting that, really shows the utter foolishness of evolutionary thinking.

But 1 question, are you saying evolution may not be true? Then that would make it a....lie! Who knew?
It's like they replaced the truth of God for a lie, hmmm, where have I read that?

hey someone who gets my humor ? All right !!!!!!!!!!!

thanks for your post shiver,
mark

Jason said...

forgiven said:

Part of you faulty logic comes from the unreliability of carbon dating.

You might want to find out what carbon dating is used for before you say things like this. It's a blinking neon sign that you're just repeating the mantras of AiG and ICR with no actual understanding of the matter. This is just free advice.

However, if you had helped the person to understand this issue of presuppositions, then they will be better able to recognize this for what it is—a different interpretation based on differing presuppositions—i.e. starting beliefs.

Again, this is just like saying, "The reason I am racist is my daddy raised me that way, so that's the way I am." That doesn't fly, and neither does Ham's malarkey about presuppositions.

To prove my point, guess what presuppositions I had when I started examining the evidence for evolution? The same ones you and Ken Ham do! I was just as convinced of the truth of Creationism as you guys are!

Chalking it all up to presuppositions is a license to delude yourself and is the perfect way to never let predetermined ideologies be affected by evidence.

I therefore agree, wholeheartedly, that we have to agree to disagree.

forgiven37 said...

Jason

I do understand the method and the lack of reliability of carbon dating.

I do have a question for you though. What is your guess on the age of the earth ?

Please answer that, then I will ask one last question and I will let you have the last word.

thanks
mark

Rob Penn said...

@ forgiven 37:

Robb look at their version of the ten commandments. They took out #2 and split #10 into 2 parts.

They "confess" their sins instead of repenting and turning away from them.


A practice by some, but not a Catholic Doctrine.

Did you know that there are Baptists who drink?


They pray to Mary and the Saints.

Again, I don't believe all of their Doctrine, but they do all Pray to Christ also. Yes, they do.

They put Christ back on the cross every time they take mass.

Are you talking about a cricufix? Or are you using that metaphorically to say that every mass is shameful to Christ?


you do seem like an intelligent fellow do your own homework and come to your own conclusions.

I appreciate the compliment. Seriously. It's good to know that not everyone here thinks I'm an Atheist because I research and think. ^_^

Rob Penn said...

@ forgiven 37:

Part of you faulty logic comes from the unreliability of carbon dating.

I know this is not directed towards me, but I just thought that I'd throw out the fact that Carbon Dating is old news.

Electron Dating is far superior. At least, that's my understanding of it.

Rob Penn said...

@ forgiven 37:

THAT WAS MY POINT THERE Robb Penn. Science doesn't back up evolution it discredits it all together.

Well, why didn't you come out and say that rather than dancing around the "Changing it's mind" thing?

;)

I'm sorry I misunderstood you, dude.

dale said...

Rob Penn,
You said,
"Constatnine had nothing to do with the cannonization of the New Testament."

So, we both have stated uncited proclomations!

Constanitne called together the 316 council. he was a pagaqn and nobody argues that.

I know it is an uneasy feeling that a Pagan influenced the inclusion of ancient texts into the Bible. It sure does give me pause!

Rob Penn said...

ShiVeR:

You don't give the Holy Spirit more to work with, you were dead in your sins remember, He doesn't need your knowledge for ammunition.

Did I say that he needs it? No. He can put it straigt into my head if he wants; He's God. The thing is, he told us to study for a reason, and I fully intend on doing that and being a good servant and a sharpened tool in as much as I can.


Jesus never debated with the scholars and religious elite, He proclaimed the truth, told them of their hypocracy, and hid the truth from them by use of parables. Jesus NEVER changed His "style" of preaching to suit His audience.

Really?

"Three days later they finally discovered him. He was in the Temple, sitting among the religious teachers, discussing deep questions with them. And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.

Luke 2:46 & 47"

I guess that doesn't count, though, because he wasn't the master at that age?


Unbelievable, ok, Roman Catholics don't believe in justification by faith alone, scripture alone, grace alone, in Christ alone, nor do they give all glory to God.

But they believe in Christ, that he is the son of God, and that he takes away their sins and that they should follow him.

I don't agree on their belief about works, but to say that they don't give all the glory to God is silly.

What's the Solas?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Joel Osteen ish't Catholic, is he?


You had said in another post that Genesis was poetry, can you tell me where the peom ends and history begins?

Genesis Chapter 1 is a poem. Chapter two (and three, I think) have the earmarks of an Ancient Hebrew, once-upon-a-time sort of legend. I know for a fact that the account of Abrahan is historical in it's literary nature.

Can you give another example in the bible where this kind of peotry is used?

Actually, I'm not sure if it's the same kind of poetry, but most of the book of Job is also a poem. Some have suggested that, because of it's layout with the poetry in the middle, an prose introducing and concluding it, it may be a kind of Drama or play.

Do you believe it outlines the historical basis of the creation of the world?

I believe it could, but that it doesn't have to be interpreted that way to be responsible because of it's poetic nature.

I also believe that, because of this, the whole "Big Bang, Evolution, Creationism" argument is really nonsequiter.


Do you believe Adam was the first man, and sinned, and corrupted the world and mankind?

Yes, I believe that man sinned and corrupted the world and mankind.

Even though it's poetry, it's in the Bible for a reason, and that's because there's a lot to learn from it.


Do you beleieve Jesus is the second Adam?

Yes, I believe that this is a perfect descriptor of Jesus.


Do you take the bible literally? Or are you in the liberal camp?

Yes.

Let me explain.
The Bible is not a book; it's a library. It contains many books, many letters, many poems, many songs, and many proverbs.

Reading Chapter 1 of Genesis the same way you read Acts is about the same as reading Walt Whitman the same way you read a History text.

Where the literature is poem, I read poetically. Where it is in the style of a legal document, I read uber uber strict. Where it shows the marks of an historical telling, I treat it like history. Where it is a song, I treat it as a song and find what it has to teach me about worship. Where it is a proverb, I live my life accordingly as best as I can, understanding the difference between a proverb and a promise all the while.


You don't read everything you find in a Library the same way regardless of style, author, genre, language, and the like; The Bible is just as diverse.

Rob Penn said...

@ dale:

So, we both have stated uncited proclomations!

Would you like a citation?

Dr. Ben Witherington the Third (such a cool name); Dr. Bruce Metzger (whose work, btw, is THE AUTHORITY on canonology, and is cited by Christians, Jews, Atheists, Muslims, and basically any one who is serious about the field;) I'm pretty sure that Bart Ehrman would say that, and he's not even a Christian any more.

You want to know how the Bible came together? Start with Metzger. He's got a great book called "The New Testament: It's background, growth, and content." Try to get the Third Revision; it's got the latest research of his work AND it's got some fun pictures!

Nobody denies that Constantine called together the Nicean Council; we don't get the Bible from that. We Get the Nicean Creed.

That's about it.

Pvblivs said...

Robb Penn:

     Christianity was sold primarily to slaves and peasants who would lack the means to do any kind of checking. There exist old christian responses to critics. But we cannot find the original writings of the critics. (The common explanation is that the church destroyed such heresy.) I have every reason to believe that, even if there were eye-witnesses saying some of the things never happenned, the church could limit the damage. (And if there were no crowds, there would also be no eye-witnesses to contradict the new religious leaders.)
     One error on my part, which I would like to correct. I said that I took my primary contradiction from NAS. The copy I have at home is, in fact, "New American Bible."
     "No one would be able to get away with trying to re-write the Torah."
     I disagree. A ruler would need only have his soldiers explain to the available "masters" that if they did not want to be stoned, they would teach it the way the ruler dictated and deny that there had ever been any changes. It is one thing to say you don't think that actually happenned. It is quite another to make a claim of impossibility.

flinging dust said...
This post has been removed by the author.
forgiven37 said...

Rob Penn said...

@ forgiven 37:

Robb look at their version of the ten commandments. They took out #2 and split #10 into 2 parts.

Would you not say that the Catholic Church is full of idols ? That is the reason the change GOD'S Commandments.Catholics regularly bow down to idols, icons and images of Jesus, Mary and the apostles, kissing the feet of the statues and praying to them.

They "confess" their sins instead of repenting and turning away from them.

A practice by some, but not a Catholic Doctrine.

not a doctrine ? Robb why do they confess their sins to a priest ? He tells them how many Hail Mary's to say and sends them on their way.


Did you know that there are Baptists who drink?

Yep, you are 100% correct there. But that doesn't make them right either. To use someone else's sin to justify your sin is pretty dumb don't you think ?


They pray to Mary and the Saints.

Again, I don't believe all of their Doctrine, but they do all Pray to Christ also. Yes, they do.

The ONLY way to HEAVEN is through JESUS CHRIST. The angels that appear in the bible refused worship didn't they ? That is because you should ONLY worship him !! Should Mary have a special place in the Church, absolutely. But she is NOT the one that goes to GOD on your behalf. Neither are Saints, which by the way are anyone who is a TRUE Believer in Jesus. Not some guy that has been dead for 400 years and looks like a fat baby.

They put Christ back on the cross every time they take mass.

Are you talking about a cricufix? Or are you using that metaphorically to say that every mass is shameful to Christ?

It says that his sacrifice on the cross wasn't good enough. He was the SPOTLESS LAMB.


you do seem like an intelligent fellow do your own homework and come to your own conclusions.

I appreciate the compliment. Seriously. It's good to know that not everyone here thinks I'm an Atheist because I research and think. ^_^

I did mean what I said, it is wise to be educated so you will not be fooled by "false teachings". Stick to the Bible kid and you'll be alright.

Rob Penn said...

@ Pvblivs:

Christianity was sold primarily to slaves and peasants who would lack the means to do any kind of checking.

Actually, there were plenty of pharisees who turned to Christianity because they did their own checking, not to mention some slave owners. We know this because of Paul's instructions in some of his letters that are specifically to slave owners.

I don't have any reason to believe that slaves and peasants were the only ones who were told about the Gospel.


There exist old christian responses to critics. But we cannot find the original writings of the critics. (The common explanation is that the church destroyed such heresy.)

That is entirely possible. The church did go about things rather poorly for a good chunk of time, there.

It's also entirely possible that they just fell out of circulation and weren't copied as much as the responses were, so we have much less of a chance to find anything in tact.

I have every reason to believe that, even if there were eye-witnesses saying some of the things never happenned, the church could limit the damage.

How is that? The early church wasn't the vatican; it didn't have NEARLY the resources that it had in the middle ages, and we haven't any Greek, Hebrew, or Latin manuscripts from that time that are any different from the first century stuff that we have.

The fact of the matter is, there's way too stuff out there for us to compare. If there was any editing done, we would know about it now for sure.

Rob Penn said...

@ Pvblivs:

I disagree. A ruler would need only have his soldiers explain to the available "masters" that if they did not want to be stoned, they would teach it the way the ruler dictated and deny that there had ever been any changes. It is one thing to say you don't think that actually happenned. It is quite another to make a claim of impossibility.

The only problem with that idea is that their writings would still remain. We know that they would still remain, because we have them, and if they had been destroyed, then we wouldn't.

The Celtic Chimp said...

Rob Penn,

What about the idea that Genesis wasn't meant to be a discertation describing every detail of the origin of creation?


Genesis being an acconut of the origins of life would be akin to Moby Dick being an account of the origins and development of the whaling industry. Well no, it wouldn't even be that close.

Even if it is, Evolution and the Big Bang theories would have to hold that "If it happened that way, then we simply can't detect it, because we observe nature and such an event would be supernatural."

We have evidence to show that it did not happen that way.

That's how my Bio teacher says it, any way.

You Bio teacher is not very good.

One other thing, what makes you so sure that we would not be able to detect the supernatural? Do you have some information on the mechanics and properties of the supernatural you are not sharing with us?

The Celtic Chimp said...

Rob Penn,

1) What's axiomatic?

An axiom is a taken for granted, self evident premise.

B) Your analogy doesn't work, here. Primarily because there are things that grow without sunlight. Super deep caves, and the bottom of the oceans have evolved creatures that have lost their depencance on light and in some cases can even create their own.

I think you misunderstand the analogy. It does not suggest that all things which grow need sunlight. It was pointing out the flaw in your assertion that non-matter does not need a cause. The analogy was saying this

1. apples trees need sunlight to grow.

2. non-apple trees must therefore not require sunlight to grow

many non-'apple tree' entities might not indeed need sunlight to grow but that is certainly not logically consequent from being a non-'apple tree'.

If (not even trying here to convince you that he did) YHWH existed before the universe, why would he have to be part of the universal laws of physics?

I am not suggesting that he would be

My point was that the current physical laws that exist may not have been in operation prior to the big bang. Therefore, whatever existed before that might not be subject to the laws that are now present.
Also, you have no good reason to suppose that God is not bound by the universal laws. He may or may not be, there can be no evidence either way.

some other questions

1) The Bible is not a book.

Did you mean it is not one book, if not, what do you mean.

Such a statement forgets that both the nature of God and the nature of Matter have an authoritative source.

What is the authoratitive source for nature of God?

Assuming a responsible method of study in a person, the attributes of God aren't invented any more than the attributes of Matter. Even if I completely disregard my belief that God has been around since long before man, his attributes have been in the Bible since long before the need to invent them as you and several others have described it.

God's attributes are hardly described in the bible. He can do anything is hardly much help. He is all-singing all-dancing does not give the first clue as to what God is or how he might be constrined. And yes, even the supposedly omnipotent God would have to submit to some constraints.

P.S.
I appricate and commend you for making an effort to engage with the ideas here and not resorting to just hitting me on the head with a bible.

Regards,
Gary.

The Celtic Chimp said...

Ray,

I guess that novella posted by forgiven got by the old 'post too long' detectors eh?

Is it ok if I post the entire content of a website or a small e-book on here too?

Rob Penn said...

@ The Celtic Chimp:

It was pointing out the flaw in your assertion that non-matter does not need a cause.

I don't know if all non-matter needs a cause. I wasn't referring to all non matter. I am saying that God is not material, so why would he have to be bound to the laws of physics that say he needs a cause like matter does?


Also, you have no good reason to suppose that God is not bound by the universal laws. He may or may not be, there can be no evidence either way.

If I believe that Jesus rose from the dead, that God split the Reed Sea (no, that's not a typo), that he created the universe from nothing (by whatever means he chose), that he can be everywhere at once, and that he has the power to do anything that he wants, then I have to suppose that he is not bound by the laws of the universe.

If I believe that God is who he says he is, and that he can do what he's done and says he can do, then I have to suppose that he's not bound by the laws of the universe.

How do we know that a person is incredibly intelligent? Well, if they have graduated from MIT at the age of 16, then we can assume that they have a high IQ, even if they haven't taken an IQ test.


Did you mean it is not one book, if not, what do you mean.

Yes, that's what I meant. The Bible isn't a book; it's a library. Reading it like a book takes out a lot of contextual things. It's not even entirely in chronological order!


What is the authoratitive source for nature of God?

I know it's a big "no-no" for some reason, but I use the Bible as my authoritative source for the nature of God. I also use tradition and observation, but those are compared to scripture, because it's my measuring stick for spiritual matters.

The Bible has proven itself absolutely true in my life and in my studies. In spiritual matters, I have absolutely no reason to not believe what the Bible says.


God's attributes are hardly described in the bible. He can do anything is hardly much help. He is all-singing all-dancing does not give the first clue as to what God is or how he might be constrined. And yes, even the supposedly omnipotent God would have to submit to some constraints.


I disagree. A lot of what we know about God we get from the names he's given in the Bible.

It's an ancient Hebrew thing, the name stuff. The name that you give a thing defines some key aspect of it. Or, if there is something unusual about a person, they will be named to reflect that in the ancient Hebrew society.

When God tells us that his name is "I am," for instance, it tells us that he doesn't change. We know that God simply is. "I was" is not his name, so he wasn't something in the past that he isn't now. "I will be" isn't his name, so he won't be something in the future that he isn't now. It also tells us that he has never not existed, because his name isn't "I wasn't."

The Bible also tells us a lot about God's nature and characteristics because it tells us of some of his acts; what he did and how he did it. If a person fails out of college because they played video games instead of going to class, then we can see by that action that he is both lazy and an avid gamer, even if no one comes out and says "He's a gamer, and he's lazy."

That's not to mention the things that are just straight up said, like "YHWH is the kind of God who takes something that isn't and calls it like it is," or "YHWH isn't like men because he won't lie."


P.S.
I appricate and commend you for making an effort to engage with the ideas here and not resorting to just hitting me on the head with a bible.


Thanks for the kind words. I do believe that there are times when it's better to wait. However, I also believe that at some point when talking about God, it's inappropriate to not use the Bible.

Rob Penn said...

@ The Celtic Chimp:

Genesis being an acconut of the origins of life would be akin to Moby Dick being an account of the origins and development of the whaling industry. Well no, it wouldn't even be that close.

Coming from Genesis, I know for certain that

1) God created the universe (by whatever means he chose to do it)
2) he did it without any help
3) he created man special and in a different way than he created everything else
4) he created animals unfinished and man helped God complete it (it's the name thing, I love that about the ancient Hebrews)
5) After that at some point, man did something to mess the universe up.

I believe that to be a fair poetic reading of the creation story, because it fits in really well with the rest of the Bible contextually. However, it is poetry and story telling, so if others think they have a better interpretation I'm open to it.


One other thing, what makes you so sure that we would not be able to detect the supernatural? Do you have some information on the mechanics and properties of the supernatural you are not sharing with us?

Nothing that you don't already know.

Science is the observation of nature. Unless the supernatural directly affects the natural in some way (which, I believe, has happened and does happen,) it's simply apples and oranges.

The laws of nature don't have to apply to the supernatural. If they did, then it would be nature, and not super natural at all.

Judging by all the evidence for the big bang and evolution, If the universe and everything in it were created in 6 days, then it wouldn't be natural. That's why you don't believe in a 6 day creation, right? All the observation of nature points to something else?

It's a non-issue. The Bible hasn't anything against a natural Big Bang/evolution. Unless the supernatural affects the natural, then science doesn't bother with it at all, and humans weren't there at the beginning so we have to go by what we're observing now.

Rob Penn said...

@ forgiven37:

Would you not say that the Catholic Church is full of idols ?That is the reason the change GOD'S Commandments.Catholics regularly bow down to idols, icons and images of Jesus, Mary and the apostles, kissing the feet of the statues and praying to them.

No, I wouldn't. Catholics do not pray to the crucifixes, or statues. The statues and icons are merely representations. It's the same as a person who has an ichtus on their car, or a cross on their car, or on a chain around their neck. They don't believe that God is in those; they simply like the visualisation and have a tradition of it in their church.


not a doctrine ? Robb why do they confess their sins to a priest ? He tells them how many Hail Mary's to say and sends them on their way.

Yes, that is a docrtine. That's nota doctrine I agree with, but one that I can understand how they might get to.

I am not saying that their confessionals aren't part of their doctrine, I'm talking about the implication that they simply confess their sins but don't repent of them. There are people in the Catholic church who practice that, but it's not a Doctrine.


Yep, you are 100% correct there. But that doesn't make them right either. To use someone else's sin to justify your sin is pretty dumb don't you think ?

You are missing the point. I am not using that to justify another's sins. It is an example of how a person's actions don't reflect the doctrine that they've been taught.

You don't believe that the entire baptist church teaches that it's ok to drink because a bunch of Baptist people drink, do you?


The ONLY way to HEAVEN is through JESUS CHRIST. The angels that appear in the bible refused worship didn't they ? That is because you should ONLY worship him !! Should Mary have a special place in the Church, absolutely. But she is NOT the one that goes to GOD on your behalf. Neither are Saints, which by the way are anyone who is a TRUE Believer in Jesus. Not some guy that has been dead for 400 years and looks like a fat baby.

They don't depend on Mary for their salvation. They do emphasise her importance more than I believe is appropriate, but that doesn't mean that they don't depend on Christ.

Jesus didn't say "all who have good doctrine will be saved," he said "all who call on my name will be saved." The Catholic church does that, in many ways.


It says that his sacrifice on the cross wasn't good enough. He was the SPOTLESS LAMB.

Ok, I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about here. Can you elaborate?

Rob Penn said...

@ flinging dust:

I gotta hand it to you for knowing about Metzger and you are right about him. Yep, Bart loves him. I'm a Bart fan.

I haven't actually read Ehrman yet. It's on my smart list.

My mentor tells me that one of Bart's books, "New Testament, The: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings," is REALLY good stuff, though it overemphasizes the diversity of the early church a bit.

A really good New Testament class in a secular setting would have that book and Metzgers "The New Testament: It's Backround, Growth, and Content."


BTW, thanks for the compliment. ^_^

flinging dust said...
This post has been removed by the author.
forgiven37 said...

The Celtic Chimp said...

Ray,

I guess that novella posted by forgiven got by the old 'post too long' detectors eh?

Is it ok if I post the entire content of a website or a small e-book on here too?

Hey Chimp why all the crying ? Still upset about Ray not bringing up the banana thing ?

forgiven37 said...

robb penn said

Jesus didn't say "all who have good doctrine will be saved," he said "all who call on my name will be saved." The Catholic church does that, in many ways.

Robb you MUST REPENT AND TURN FROM YOUR WICKED WAYS. If you just confess them to a priest and go and do them again it is the same as saying that I have a free ticket to sin. Wouldn't you agree ?

Rob Penn said...

@ flinging dust:

Thanks!

There are two people I would suggest to ANY BODY. One, Metzger, you already know.

The other guy is named Ben Witherington III. He's got some GREAT stuff. And his blog is riddiculously awesome, too. He has a lot of theoology on his blog, but also movie and book reviews, personal stuff, and artistic musings.

I actually hadn't made the connection that John the Baptist might be from an Essene community until I read Witherington's blog. I mean, considering their emphasis on baptism, it's entirely possible.

Thanks for the compliments. It's nice to talk to some one who doesn't automatically assume that I'm stupid and unread becuse I'm a Christian, rather than having to convince them of the fact.

The Celtic Chimp said...

Rob,

Two things

Science is the observation of nature.

Actually true science is observation. What is being observed is deduced after the fact.

The supernatural you posit interacts with the natural, the interaction at least should be observeable no? and does that then make it natural?

Also,

I see you are getting the repent now or else treatment yourself. :)

Rob Penn said...

@ forgiven37:

Robb you MUST REPENT AND TURN FROM YOUR WICKED WAYS. If you just confess them to a priest and go and do them again it is the same as saying that I have a free ticket to sin. Wouldn't you agree ?

Yes, I agree that confessing them to a priest and continuing on with them is not the way to salvation.

Nor is that the Catholic Doctrine. They are absolutely expected to repent and sin no more, like any Christian. That some don't is a shame indeed.

Rob Penn said...

@ The Celtic Chimp:

Actually true science is observation. What is being observed is deduced after the fact.

The supernatural you posit interacts with the natural, the interaction at least should be observeable no? and does that then make it natural?


That the supernatural and the natural interact doesn't mean that what we observe is natural.

When water interacts with milk, it doesn't become milk; it's just water interacting with milk.

That's why skim milk is nasty.


If you'll excuse an example from the Bible, take when Moses crossed the Reed Sea with the Israelites.

Did any one see God with their eyes? Did any one see what held the waters back? No, but they saw how nature was affected; the waters separated in a way that they shouldn't have naturally.

They didn't see the supernatural, but they saw what it did to the natural.

I know you probably don't believe that that happened, but Regardless of the truth of it (I do believe it to be true) I think it's a pretty effective illustration.



Also,

I see you are getting the repent now or else treatment yourself. :)


I know. It had been a while since I was called an atheist here. I was beginning to think I was doing a bad job!

^_^

The Celtic Chimp said...

Rob,

My point about the interaction between the natural and supernatural was address the claim that the supernatural cannot be detected by any scientific method.

If the supernatural interacts with the natural, lets take the Red sea for example, we can clearly see a breach of the normally operating physical laws.

If a praying amputee had a missing limb suddenly regenerate in response to prayer, I think I would become an instant believer. This has not, nor never will happen. The supernatural never occurs in a way that could not be natural at least it seems since science began to explain the world. It is a bit unfair really isn't. All we have to go on is a old book full of the most horrendeous barbarity and injustice which apparently supports an all-good God :). Back in the day they had seas parting and other cool miracles. Well thats God for you. He seems to have become rather shy these last few millenia. An odd thing too, if you don't mind me saying. After all the trouble God went to protecting Moses and co, isn't it ever so slightly odd that he stood back and let Hitler kill 5-6 million jews and not one single smiting or even a mesely second class miracle or two. Guess the Almighty's priorities have changed a bit. Funny that though isn't. Since we have had reliable sources, not a single miracle, nothing. Zip from on high. Maybe God is camera shy.

Rob Penn said...

@ The Celtic Chimp:


If a praying amputee had a missing limb suddenly regenerate in response to prayer, I think I would become an instant believer. This has not, nor never will happen. The supernatural never occurs in a way that could not be natural at least it seems since science began to explain the world. It is a bit unfair really isn't. All we have to go on is a old book full of the most horrendeous barbarity and injustice which apparently supports an all-good God :). Back in the day they had seas parting and other cool miracles. Well thats God for you. He seems to have become rather shy these last few millenia. An odd thing too, if you don't mind me saying. After all the trouble God went to protecting Moses and co, isn't it ever so slightly odd that he stood back and let Hitler kill 5-6 million jews and not one single smiting or even a mesely second class miracle or two. Guess the Almighty's priorities have changed a bit. Funny that though isn't. Since we have had reliable sources, not a single miracle, nothing. Zip from on high. Maybe God is camera shy.


Moses leading Israel out of Egypt was God fulfilling his promise that he would give them a place to call their own.

Hitler killing Jews was God not taking away Hitler's free will, as well as keeping his promise that the Jewish Nation would not recover from their most recent conquering and come together as a nation in their own land for a LONG time.

I've seen some rather coincidental things in my life. True, none of them being pillars of fire, but I can't say that I've never seen God move.

The pastor at my old church has video of him understanding perfectly a question that some one asked him in a language he didn't study or know. He had a translator for a sermon who was... well, translating, and went to ask him a question. He forgot to ask it in english, however, and the pastor didn't even take note.

There's been some healing things that I've whitnessed. My best friend's dad almost had to have heart surgery for some blockage that was pretty majorly bad, and some how inbetween visits, without medicine or doctoral help, it just disapeared. Again, maybe coincidental, but it sure is a coincidence.

That God has changed has seemingly changed his methods doesn't mean anything except that his methods seem to have changed. I dunno, maybe he got tired of people watching pillars of fire fall from the sky and not care.

forgiven37 said...

The Celtic Chimp said...

Rob,

Two things

Science is the observation of nature.

Actually true science is observation. What is being observed is deduced after the fact.

The supernatural you posit interacts with the natural, the interaction at least should be observeable no? and does that then make it natural?

Also,

I see you are getting the repent now or else treatment yourself. :)

wrong again cc,

that was a conversation that robb and I were having about Catholics.do you guys bother to read the post at all ? or were the last ones to long for ya to ???

The Celtic Chimp said...

forgiven,

I'm wrong becasue you say so?

OK.

Quantum_Flux said...

Hmmmm, maybe I should invent a comfort ray!

Jason said...

Sorry I've been away.

forgiven37 said:

I do understand the method and the lack of reliability of carbon dating.

Then tell me: what kind of age would you expect to get if you carbon date a dinosaur bone?

I do have a question for you though. What is your guess on the age of the earth ?

Please answer that, then I will ask one last question and I will let you have the last word.


Why would I guess something like that? What is your best guess on the number of parents you have?

Jason said...

forgiven37:


that was a conversation that robb and I were having about Catholics.do you guys bother to read the post at all ? or were the last ones to long for ya to ???


HAHA! Do you read your own posts?

forgiven37 said...

Jason said...
Sorry I've been away.

forgiven37 said:

I do understand the method and the lack of reliability of carbon dating.

Then tell me: what kind of age would you expect to get if you carbon date a dinosaur bone?

I do have a question for you though. What is your guess on the age of the earth ?

Please answer that, then I will ask one last question and I will let you have the last word.


Why would I guess something like that? What is your best guess on the number of parents you have?


Forgiven37 said

the same number as your IQ 2.

forgiven37 said...

Jason said...
forgiven37:


that was a conversation that robb and I were having about Catholics.do you guys bother to read the post at all ? or were the last ones to long for ya to ???

HAHA! Do you read your own posts?

Forgiven37 said
yep, sure do. your point ? oh, you don't have one sorry my bad.

Jason said...

forgiven said:

the same number as your IQ 2.

I see I've won. Goodbye, forgiven. As far as I'm concerned, you no longer exist.

forgiven37 said...

Blogger Jason said...

forgiven said:

the same number as your IQ 2.

I see I've won. Goodbye, forgiven. As far as I'm concerned, you no longer exist.

wow, I'm crushed , wait what is it you won again ??? You responded with an ignorant question after I offered to give you the last word, and yet I'm the offender ?? oh well, I do hope you see the truth and find GOD before it's to late.