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Those of you who are regular atheists must be getting worried. Not about the future, but about the fact that you know what the Bible had to say about the future. I watched CBS news this morning. This is how it began:
"Breaking News. Global market’s plummet this morning after Wall Street’s nearly 900 billion dollar loss on Thursday. Credit markets around the world are seized up in a manner no one has ever seen before."
We are seeing Bible prophecy being fulfilled before our very eyes. Experts have long predicted that we would see a world-wide economic collapse, a one-world government, and the raising up of a charismatic world leader that will bring peace and stability and will not let people buy and sell without a mark...
As this unfolds, it is slowly dawning on you that the Bible is right, and that all those "mistakes" you found in the Bible were actually your mistakes. And that leads to a sobering revelation. It means that Hell is real. So, what are you going to do? I have a suggestion. Humble yourself, then admit you were wrong, and get right with God through repentance and faith in Jesus. Then begin to reach out to the lost with the same zeal you had as an atheist.
Friday, October 10, 2008
World-Wide Economic Meltdown
126 comments:
Raymondo,
2Esy there. You're absolutely gushing about this bad news.
Religions always do capitalize on fear. I totally expected you tro try to capitalize on this.
If times do get tough you can rest assured that there will be some desperate people turn to religion to assuage their fear- nothing new.
Now you couple that with this one world goverment and the anti Christ guy-
Good luck with those. Wait! Obama?
Last year Newsweek reported that yes things are bad at home but the world economy is better than ever.
"It seems things are as bad as they've been in recent memory. Except that if you look beyond temporal market fluctuations to how the real global economy is doing, things have never been better. For the past four years, the world has grown at a 5.2 percent annual rate—a full 2 percentage points higher than in the '80s and '90s—thanks in large part to booming emerging markets. While the United States and many parts of Europe are lagging, most of the rest of the planet is soaring."
Yet
The Guardian reports this year that "France moves into recession "he French premier, Francois Fillon, today warned that the world was "on the edge of the abyss" as his country moved into an official recession."
and MSNBC reported Latin American leaders saying:
"The managers of big business took huge risks out of greed," said President Oscar Arias of Costa Rica, whose economy is highly dependent on U.S. trade. "What happens in the United States will affect the entire world and, above all, small countries like ours."
**
We don't know exactly what hour Christ will return, but He did tell us we would know the signs of the times.
“Later, Jesus sat on the slopes of the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and asked, ‘When will all this take place? And will there be any sign ahead of time to signal your return and the end of the world?’ Jesus told them, ‘Don’t let anyone mislead you. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will lead many astray. And wars will break out near and far, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must come, but the end won’t follow immediately. The nations and kingdoms will proclaim war against each other, and there will be famines and earthquakes in many parts of the world. But all this will be only the beginning of the horrors to come.’” Matthew 24:3-8
“But you, Daniel, keep this prophecy a secret; seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rush here and there, and knowledge will increase.” Daniel 12:4
(that last part in Daniel reminds me of the atheists who boast in their knowledge - and this was written well over 5,000 years ago.)
But then around 2,000 years ago, Paul writes:
“You should also know this, Timothy, that in the last days there will be very difficult times. For people will love only themselves and their money. They will be boastful and proud, scoffing at God, disobedient to their parents, and ungrateful. They will consider nothing sacred. They will be unloving and unforgiving; they will slander others and have no self-control; they will be cruel and have no interest in what is good. They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. They will act as if they are religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly.” 2 Timothy 3:1-5
Evidence of the truth of this prophecy is all around us. We need only look in the mirror. We are all these things and more. The pursuit of fame and wealth and selfish pleasure have taken precedence over all else. But there is hope for us. Through Jesus, we can be born anew. “What this means is that those who become Christians become new persons. They are not the same anymore, for the old life is gone. A new life has begun!” 2 Corinthians 5:17
“First, I want to remind you that in the last days there will be scoffers who will laugh at the truth and do every evil thing they desire. This will be their argument: ‘Jesus promised to come back, did he? Then where is he? Why, as far back as anyone can remember, everything has remained exactly the same since the world was first created.’” 2 Peter 3:3-4
Wow that part sounds like every atheist here, I remember weemarryanne scoffing about this exact thing.
If America falls, it WILL bring a collapse of the world economy, bet on it, because almost every nation trades with America for their own prosperity.
It reminds me so much from Revelation 18:
Revelation 18
1After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor.
2With a mighty voice he shouted:
"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
3For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."
4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.
7Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
'I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.'
8Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
9"When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her.
10Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
O Babylon, city of power!
In one hour your doom has come!'
11"The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more—
12cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble;
13cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men.
14 "They will say, 'The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.'
15 The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn
16and cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17 In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!'
"Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off.
18When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?' 19They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
where all who had ships on the sea
became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!
20Rejoice over her, O heaven!
Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
God has judged her for the way she treated you.' "
21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
"With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.
22The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No workman of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.
23The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world's great men.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
24In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earth."
Wars, famines, earthquakes, pestilence, persecution and death of Christians, and the appearance of false prophets all mark the times in which we live.
“Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near.” Matthew 24:28
In other words, if you see vultures you know that there is a sign of something dead nearby.
The same goes for the prophecy of the end times. We are never told what hour and minute Christ will return, but He gives us plenty of warning of the signs surrounding His return - that way many will come to be saved and be watchful, and not indulge in sin, so as to be caught unaware.
Sadly, many atheists, false converts and false prophets and those that have rejected the salvation offered by Christ, will enter into an earthly horror called the great tribulation - and even during this horrible time, Christ still has his arms open to those that repent.
You can never say of God - "You never gave me a chance to repent!"
Atheist, you may call this a fear tactic, but it's quite the opposite, your own blindness and arrogance is the only thing preventing you from humbling yourselves. But it's not too late...yet.
MARANATHA - Amen! Come, Lord Jesus! Come!
I had another vision this night. This fall of the stock market is the first sign of the Big Pink Bunny coming.
Other signs that will follow are poverty, hunger and a lack of love between people.
So repent quickly of your believes or be lacerated by the Big Pink Bunny!
Haven't we seen this post before? Anyway, nope, still not worried about End Times. How I'm going to pay for college, yes. End times, no.
Just to head off some atheists at the pass (because I know what you are thinking), no, I and the vast majority of Christians do not believe Barack Obama is the Antichrist. He's charismatic, yes, but he's also a bumbling fool and an ill-experienced public speaker whose tongue-tied stuttering is laughable. The Antichrist will not be a bumbling, tongue-tied fool.
As absolutely predicted in the Bible! The Dow Jones Industrial Average represents the highest performing stocks, or put another way, the stars of wall street, and the way they have so drastically fallen is foretold directly in the Biblical prophecy... which states... alright, I give up.
I completely give up.
I can't keep pretending to have been "converted" any longer. I can't keep trying to parody the insanity. There's no point. Everything I could possibly say to intentionally make the Fundies look like inconsiderate, self-righteous, loathsome misanthropic sociopaths, they are, I have come to realize, only to happy to say such things themselves. There's nothing I can possibly say in jest they wouldnt say in earnest, and I just can't keep the act up. I don't hate the world enough to be able to convincingly pretend to be "converted" anymore, and I can't bring myself to hate science and reason enough to keep twisting logic and rhetoric to make pathetic arguments, and indeed, I don't even need to try, since given enough time, those insane arguments will appear independant of my intervention.
And the truly wretched thing of it all is how many people I successfully convinced of my "conversion." I know from comment posts and private messages how many people I successfully convinced, and there were as many Atheists as "Comfort Christians" in the lot of them. I won't name names, as I know full well how many will say they were never fooled and I'm lying as I did then, and would use the opportunity to ask themselves the honest question: If they were convinced when I was acting intentionally insane, what does that say about how they themselves percieve their own faith?
But, as I say, I can't even be bothered anymore, its all too depressing to get myself into that mindset. I dont hate women as much as Mark does to tell them all they have to do is keep their legs shut, that is unless their overwhelmed with their sin of fornication.
I dont despise doctors as much as Dawn does to actually buy an old and obviously false urban legend about doctors at an abortion clinic ready to perform the operation at, apparently, the end of the 9th month, then deliver the twins, then drown them both.
I cant pat myself on the back as nigh does when he fantasizes about all the people who will, in heaven, thank him personally for saving a guy who saved a guy who saved a guy who saved them, nor can I even fathom the ego necessary to be capable of as much.
I cant insist, as Keith has done repeatedly, that calling all other religions a lie is not intolerance, but that disputing a particular interpretation of the Bible actually is, because its actually true, nor that every other religion invented its "Gods" to help them justify their disbelief in the only Real God, who is not invented because I believe as much to be true.
(It was incidentally funny to me that I basically made the same claim as Keith had, and before he had made it too, and that Keith's comment, rambling and incoherent as it was about medicine and mathematics, Ray made as a full on Post, ignoring mine. Mayhaps he could tell I was insincere, but again, what does it say when this kind of madness is so easy to mock?)
And finally, I cannot hate, I cannot despise my fellow man with anywhere near the fury nor passion that Ray Comfort does, to insult the intelligence, reasoning, motives, personal lives, ethos, morality, and general humanity of anyone who dares, with malice aforethought, to not automatically believe that Ray's particular interpretation of scripture is both the only correct one, and absolutely true.
I can't handle it any more. I'm completely spent.
We are seeing Bible prophecy being fulfilled before our very eyes.
No, we're not.
The Bible makes no testable predictions. It therefore stands to reason there's no way to assess their accuracy either.
Seriously, you fundamentalists have been claiming that the end-times are nigh! for as long as I've been alive - and certainly for nearly 2 millennia. And yet here we are, typing and wasting time on a friday afternoon in the year 2008.
I'm going to make a FALSIFIABLE prediction, right here and now, and you should feel free to call me on it as soon as it's disproved:
The world and humanity will continue on our merry little journies for the next 40 years without the hand of God intervening.
(I chose 40 simply because it's a reasonable number for me to expect to continue living, before dying of old age. Certainly, both will continue for much longer, but I felt it best to be able to see the results of my prediction in my lifetime).
Cheers Rex - you had me fooled at one point as well.
This blog is an excellent example of blind faith being all too willing to drag civilization back into the dark ages. Other than to lead by example, there's nothing else you can do for those who reject reality.
rex -
So, you're a liar?
Welcome to the real world.
If you care enough about the people you deceived, I suggest you apologize to them.
The stock market has crashed, people are without jobs, Debt is to blame, and rumor of war is abounding over seas.
Surely this is end times. The anti-Christ is even raising an army to strike at the Jews.
That was the 1930's and it was much worse than now.
Ok, i'll take you up on your wager.
First we must agree on a specific definition of the "mark of the beast". I think the biggest "candidate" would be an implanted RFID chip. Would you agree?
If the current economic troubles result in a one-world government in which no one will be able to buy or trade unless they have the mark of the beast on their hand or forehead, i'll become a believing, practicing christian, but on one condition.
This condition is that you must agree that if the current economic troubles DO NOT result in a one-world government in which no one will be able to buy or trade unless they have the mark of the beast on their hand or forehead, then you have to renounce your faith, and admit that religion is a crock, and that there is no God, and make a public apology to all atheists, homosexuals, and other "sinners" which you have chastised.
I am willing to put my lack of faith on the line if you are willing to put your faith on the line here.
If biblical prophecy is true, then what do you have to worry about?
Please accept my challenge. I would really love to see what happens when the markets recover (which they will... we've been in much worse spots)
So why wasn't the biblical prophesy fulfilled in 1929? Or during the wide depression after the Napaleonic Wars? Or after the great dutch tulip bubble of 1637? Or when Rome fell. Markets soar and then fall. Powers come and then go. It's history. There is nothing new under the sun, or so the saying goes. This time it is happening to us. Next time, it will happen to whatever super power replaces us. Or so the story goes....
Personally, I'm headed for the hills. Mainly, because I like to hike.
Ray, I think you're making stuff up again. Revelation speaks, arguably, of an "economic collapse" (at least, merchants are wailing about their lost selling opportunities after Babylon the Great has fallen), but this appears to accompany the fall of the Beast, not his rise. There's no indication of a "one world ruler" arising out of an economic collapse (granted, in a book of seven-headed sea monsters, blood-sipping prostitutes, and women wearing solar fusion couture, the exact details of what it's predicting can get a bit hard to make out). Indeed, considering that the Beast appears to wage war against other earthly rulers, Revelation seems not to predict a "one world ruler" (and neither, so far as I can make out, does any other biblical prophecy).
I've mentioned before that fashions in Bible prophecy come and go, and that prophecies that are interpreted to refer to an EU-based "one world ruler" today were in earlier days interpreted to refer to the papacy, or to Mussolini, or to Hitler (wasn't the Great Depression a "world-wide economic collapse?. Barnes' Notes on Revelation with their view of the book as an overview of western history from the first century to the 20th was a splendid example of matching biblical texts to historical events (it was said that to compare Barnes' Notes to Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire was sufficient proof of the inspiration of scripture), but has been almost entirely superseded by futurist interpretations that make no use of Barnes' correspondences.
Oh to add you might want to change your picture. The dollar is actually rallying through all this.
NEW YORK, Oct 10 (Reuters) - The U.S. dollar rallied from 6-1/2 month lows against the yen on Friday
Ray:
When the market corrects, and the economy begins to grow again, I want you to humble yourself and admit you were wrong. But I won't hold my breath.
Ray, your post again prompted me to plunk down more money in the stock market today. I do love me my money and sin! I especially love the sin I can buy with money. I'll say it again: You, my friend, are the ultimate contrarian indicator.
TEMPLE
Jinx McHue said...
Just to head off some atheists at the pass (because I know what you are thinking), no, I and the vast majority of Christians do not believe Barack Obama is the Antichrist. He's charismatic, yes, but he's also a bumbling fool and an ill-experienced public speaker whose tongue-tied stuttering is laughable. The Antichrist will not be a bumbling, tongue-tied fool.
endquote
No he will be an angry old man that has loast touch with reality and has a pitbull with lipstick as a running mate.
Rex, that was an amusing series of posts that often had me shaking my head at just how perfect a play it was.
Thank you for some entertaining reading.
whateverman said:
...The Bible makes no testable predictions. It therefore stands to reason there's no way to assess their accuracy either.
Whateverman. Do you plan to write down that remark and keep it in your back pocket to use in your defense at the last day when God judges our deeds, words, secret thoughts and intentions?
Craig B.
@Ray--
Those of you who are regular atheists must be getting worried. Not about the future, but about the fact that you know what the Bible had to say about the future.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If the global economy tanks, then the Bible is right after all. Is that it?
So--If the global economy recovers, does that mean that atheism was right after all?
@Rex - if I hadn't seen your previous posts (before your "conversion" I would have been convinced you were a fundie. A perfect example of Poe's law.
@Ray - really Ray, more fearmongering? Is business slow this week?
@allfiredup - is there anything in your "prophecy" that hasn't been a regular occurence during the last few thousand years?
Lessee.
The dow drops 777 points on Rosh Hoshanah, the feast of trumpets/judgments. Hmmm.
Those of us with eyes to see.....
Eze 7:19 They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of the wrath of the LORD: they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their bowels: because it is the stumblingblock of their iniquity.
America's god, Mammon, is brought low.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Of course anyone who has really studied the Bible would know that the book of Revelation was really about the Romans and not about any coming reality 2000 years down the road. Go back and read it again, and instead of trying to make the US fit into it, read it with the focus on Rome. It will make a lot more sense to you.
The great thing about Revelation (and most biblical prophecy, for that matter) is that it's so vague that you could apply its gruesome foreshadowing to almost any place and time. In fact, that's what people have been doing for centuries. You're keeping up a long-standing tradition, dude!
Great post Rex!
Whateverman said, "This blog is an excellent example of blind faith being all too willing to drag civilization back into the dark ages."
Please specify what you mean by dark ages.
These comments remind me of 2 Peter 3:3-9 :
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God Bless
Jesus is coming soon,
morning or night or noon,....
[silentsanta, NZ]
It's the end! The END, I tell you!!
Well done! Well done Rex! A very well demonstrated example of Poe's law in action!
Word is Bond!
~Atomic Chimp
Those of you who are regular atheists must be getting worried.
Actually Ray I'm a "slightly irregular" atheist. So what should I be worried about?
My 94 year old grandma told me they were saying the same things in 1929 and also when Kennedy got elected many claimed he was the anti-Christ. I'm sure when the plague spread across Europe they claimed the same thing. See where I'm going with this Ray? With every generation there will always be an arrogant group of christians claiming the end-times. Get over yourselves already.
This is just more of your Dominionist propaganda Ray.
W.E.M. -
Yep, and Rex is a shining example of someone I'm glad I don't have as a personal friend.
See my post at the other site as well.
Ray,
What do you think about Alex Jones type stuff and the New World Order?
Rex Mundane said...
"the truly wretched thing of it all is how many people I successfully convinced of my "conversion." I know from comment posts and private messages how many people I successfully convinced, and there were as many Atheists as "Comfort Christians" in the lot of them. I won't name names, as I know full well how many will say they were never fooled"
Nope. I will fully and honestly 'fess up that you had me fooled; the things that you said were no worse and no better than the likes of VeraAndDoug or AllFriedUp. Some of the Raytractors tried to show that you were a Poe and I still wasn't convinced, so congrats on an excellent performance, but I'm afraid that you didn't show us anything that we didn't already know. The fact that these guys seem to think that the Bible says, "in the end times a reliance on sub-prime credit trading along with an artificially inflated property market will go unchecked by the invisible hand of market forces that everyone will rely on leading to a freeze up of the credit lending market and a short term drop in trading," just shows how far over the reality horizon they are.
What if this thing turns around and the end does not come?
Does it prove you wrong?
Does it prove the Bible wrong?
or did you just jump the gun?
So are you willing to go on record and state that this is absolutely the beginning of the fulfilment of this prophecy ?? I'll agree to eat my hat if this whole sorry mess ends with Jesus coming back to Earth so long as you're willing to do the same if, by the end of this crisis, Jesus isn't back here.
I'm sure you understand that we can't take your 'I told you so's' seriously unless you're willing to at least put a time frame on the fulfilment of this prophecy. As I said last time you made this same point I could predict that a pink Unicorn will dance the Charleston on top of the great pyramid in Egypt but if I don't give a set date by which this will happen my prophecy is nothing more than a way to string gullible people along by their eternal belief that it will happen 'soon'.
The fact that the economy will run into major problems at any point in the future is about as easy to predict as the fact that people will fight each other, people will laugh at ridiculous unsubstantiated claims and the majority of movies made next year will be terrible.
Oh by the way, a pink Unicorn will dance the Charleston on top of the great pyramid in Egypt soon. You will know this event is close at hand when you see the fulfilment of my prophecy that Ray Comfort will say something shockingly moronic on an Internet blog.
P.S. Well said Rex.
If you care enough about the people you deceived, I suggest you apologize to them.
To all those who took my "conversion" seriously (and again, I won't name names for embarassment sake) I apologize. I didn't honestly intend for so many to be fooled, as I was trying really to just say the most inane and insane things possible. Sadly, in the attempt to mimic and exaggerate Comfort Christianity, it seems it was impossible to do so to such a degree that the ruse became as obvious as I had hoped it would. I regret assuming it was possible to parody unconvincingly and, to those who believed I had changed, I apologize for deceiving you. It was never my genuine intent.
Though I do ask again, and notice I see no answer to it here or elsewhere: What does it say that exaggerative parody is practically impossible, here? That in trying to be absurd, I, to you, seemed genuine?
Haven't we done this before?
Hard times....yes. End times.....huh, no.
Nice one, Rex. Willful ignorance on display. Smooth.
Do you all know why there are no shortage of candidates for suicide bombers? Because those folks are true belivers. Not like the wishy washy fundies on this blog. If you truly believed that you would be in paradise when death arrives, you would seek death immediately. A small price to pay for the immediate return on investment(pun intended). You wouldn't be waiting and wishing for the end times. If you were offered a non-suicidal, painless death(you could donate your organs to save several others) would you take it? Wouldn't you be in a better place? The pain and suffering of this world would be over. Right?
You treat the life you have like a cheap LaHaye novel. You say deep down atheists know there is a God. I say deep down you know this is all we have any evidence of and when its gone its gone.......or you would act differently.
Pete
@nivek,
"What do you think about Alex Jones type stuff and the New World Order?"
Nivek,
I know a lot of people mock the "conspiracy" stuff. (for sure some are nuts)
But the conspiracy is real and found in the bible. Most notably in Psalm 2.
Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
Boohoo, the economy has collapsed several times just in the history of this country alone. And every one of those times religious people claimed it was the beginning of the Rapture. Guess what? They were wrong every single time and they're wrong again today.
And don't get me started on the huge list of people who were supposed to command the "one world government".
The sad thing is, even after the economy recovers Ray still won't admit to being wrong.
Liz:Actually Ray I'm a "slightly irregular" atheist. So what should I be worried about?
diarrhea?
I don't know exactly how it's all gonna play out in the end, but I think what we're seeing in the economy is definitley setting the stage for future fulfillment of biblical prophecy. I can totally "see" it happening. It seems like everything is going so bad, it's only gonna get worse and then the people of the world are gonna cry out for some kind of relief, and then some world leader will arise and "save the day", and make everyone take a mark. I can totally see it happening, and right now is just the foundation, the groundwork, the stage being set.
LOAF, I'm not suggesting that you should like Rex The Poe :)
I'm only suggesting that beyond the insult of the caricature he portrayed is something which is actually quite valid. And it worries me that those who might have been insulted by it absolutely refuse to consider the nature of the parody...
CraigB/SiaSL said: Whateverman. Do you plan to write down that remark and keep it in your back pocket to use in your defense at the last day when God judges our deeds, words, secret thoughts and intentions?
Craig (because it's easier and more friendly to refer to you by this), if it makes you feel better, I mean this sincerely:
Write it down and show it to God when you've passed on - make sure to remind him that he may need to deal with my transgressions.
If it makes YOU feel better, I am perfectly capable of repeating my own wisdom - even if doing so damns me to a deeper level of Hell each and every single time I do so.
PS. if it wasn't obvious, I have faith that your God doesn't exist
Ray Comfort said...
"World-Wide Economic Meltdown"
Those of you who are regular atheists must be getting worried.
No, the exact opposite. I'm buying high quality assets at 50c to the dollar.
Besides, when the headlines change we know Mr Comfort will change his "signs of prophecy". Now that is a prediction you can take to the bank.
Rebecca in TX said...
Whateverman said, "This blog is an excellent example of blind faith being all too willing to drag civilization back into the dark ages."
Please specify what you mean by dark ages.
Rebecca, you live in them.
Fear mongering in its finest.
Let me paraphrase his blog post:
The markets are crashing, which will lead to one world government, which will lead to a charismatic leader, this is what the bible said, repent and realize that, firstly, you're an idiot, dinosaurs were on the Ark, evolution is a lie, and hell is real.
Wow, don't know where to begin counting the 'leaps of faith' in that.
Rational people, when the markets recover and everything returns to normal, make sure you remind Ray about his bible-prophecy flop. Don't stop reminding him until he makes a post admitting it (which he probably never will do).
Remember Ray, your interpretation of the bible is 100% correct no matter what. God is on your side. Don't listen to these baby-eating atheists.
Ray Comfort said..."Those of you who are regular atheists "
Can you please explain the difference between a regular and an irregular atheist?
As for the rest, I see you carefully forgot to include any references where we could find those unbelievable accurate prophesies.
The current crash represents a fantastic buying opportunity for some investors. Bargains abound, especially outside the US, as irrational selling continues.
As an Aussie seeing bluechip share prices drop into the zone of "affordable", I'm failing to see the bad news here - unless the bible considered the US stock market to be the whole world.
Of course it's interesting, Ray, how you conflate ideas. On one hand you say the bible predicts "something" about the future and on the other hand you say experts predicted this financial meltdown. And then you magically decide both are one and the same prediction. But did the bible actually say that a US Republican government would preside over a ludicrously deregulated market in which unrestricted lending would ultimately lead to economic collapse - in 2008?
I didn't think so. But your hand-rubbing glee over this catastrophe suggests that the US would probably be better off without like-minded believers pulling the economic levers for another two terms.
Rex, thanks at last and welcome back to the world of hardened hearts. It was frustrating, knowing your were demonstrating Poe's Law, to also see that some people fell for it.
For future reference, I don't believe it's a good way to go. As you've demonstrated, your own parody was not insane enough to dissuade people. When you mimic their tactics, you actually run the risk of assisting those you seek to oppose. Anyone who would be converted by the ultra-believers on this blog would just as soon be converted by parody.
I suspect some of the skeptics who tackled your posts did so on that basis - because the nonsense you were spouting had to be countered regardless of your intentions.
Anyone who ever bothered to check Rex's profile would have seen his favourite books were listed as:
* Terry Pratchett's Discworld
* Anything by Douglas Adams
* The Holy Bible
* Other Works of Comic Fantasy
Yes, "the Holy Bible and other works of comic fantasy". Not really the words of a true convert. Also, his blog itself remained that of a skeptic.
A little research goes a long way.
I recall as a youngster, almost forty years ago, an old man used to stand on a street corner near our home, carrying a sign that said "Repent! The end is nigh".
He's dead and gone now but it looks like he was right, assuming nigh means "40 years away".
So, are any believers here willing to state absolutely what will happen in the coming weeks? World-wide warfare? Nuclear holocaust? A few banks fall over? People losing savings? A global flood for forty days? Smiting left, right and centre? A crucifixion?
What exactly does your prophecy prophecise for the coming weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, millennia?
Jinx McHue said...
Just to head off some atheists at the pass (because I know what you are thinking), no, I and the vast majority of Christians do not believe Barack Obama is the Antichrist. He's charismatic, yes, but he's also a bumbling fool and an ill-experienced public speaker whose tongue-tied stuttering is laughable. The Antichrist will not be a bumbling, tongue-tied fool.
I mentioned in a previous reply to Jinx (not posted though as of yet) that if he really wanted to see a "bumbling fool and an ill-experienced public speaker whose tongue-tied stuttering is laughable" he should look at Palin or McCain.
It seems that Kathleen Parker of the National Review Online has pretty much the same opinion of Palin.
From her September 26, 2008 12:00 AM column:
Palin’s recent interviews with Charles Gibson, Sean Hannity, and now Katie Couric have all revealed an attractive, earnest, confident candidate. Who Is Clearly Out Of Her League.
No one hates saying that more than I do. Like so many women, I’ve been pulling for Palin, wishing her the best, hoping she will perform brilliantly. I’ve also noticed that I watch her interviews with the held breath of an anxious parent, my finger poised over the mute button in case it gets too painful. Unfortunately, it often does. My cringe reflex is exhausted.
Palin filibusters. She repeats words, filling space with deadwood. Cut the verbiage and there’s not much content there. Here’s but one example of many from her interview with Hannity: “Well, there is a danger in allowing some obsessive partisanship to get into the issue that we’re talking about today. And that’s something that John McCain, too, his track record, proving that he can work both sides of the aisle, he can surpass the partisanship that must be surpassed to deal with an issue like this.”
When Couric pointed to polls showing that the financial crisis had boosted Obama’s numbers, Palin blustered wordily: “I’m not looking at poll numbers. What I think Americans at the end of the day are going to be able to go back and look at track records and see who’s more apt to be talking about solutions and wishing for and hoping for solutions for some opportunity to change, and who’s actually done it?”
Jinx. You are a bumbling racist fool. Of course the combined brains of all you Rayfanatics on this site wouldn't grease the head of a pin, but you really take the cake.
Stupid, mean and hung up on Christ is no way to go through life.
And when it's not the end of the world, you'll be so disappointed.
When the rapture happens, Ray, we'll believe you. There will be mass converts after that — oh yeah, but when there finally is some evidence that the Bible is true, God will "send a strong delusion" so we don't believe, right? Oh well.
But don't get too excited over all this, Ray. This has happened before and it will happen again. It's the nature of a free market.
And when it turns out you're wrong, again, you'll justify it with all kinds of qualifications, just like you always do.
Rebecca (in Texas) asked me to Please specify what you mean by dark ages.
The term is very accurately descibed if you Google the phrase "dark ages", and choose the Wikipedia link.
Having consulted this link, it would appear that I've made a very common error, which is to use the phrase inaccurately. Still, my inference was that the Middle Ages was a "time of ignorance and superstition", the blame for which is to be laid on the Christian Church for allegedly 'placing the word of religious authorities over personal experience and rational activity'"
Yay for you Rex Mundane. Even though it was pointed out to me on several occasions that you were just messing with the fundies, but I would still find myself wanting to reply to the nonsense you posted. I can understand how difficult it would be to continue. Thanks for the entertainment, but you are correct in saying there is no need to parody this as even your best parody won't come close to some of the foolishness spouted by these death freaks who can't wait for the world to end.
ALLLLL FIRED UPPPP
Dude. Please stop forcing me to scroll for days just to get past all of your cut and paste nonsense. Make your point in your own words.
Since I assume you are trying to convince atheists, you should know that we actually know how to look up and find information for ourselves, so just make your point and we'll go through the trouble of doing the research to point out how wrong you are.
Gods bless... All of them...
Don't Desire Wealth
By: John Piper
I can smell it. It’s like toast or steak or brownies. It doesn’t just draw our desire, it creates desire. Deep drops in the stock market make many people salivate. They know it will rebound. They are sitting on cash. By year’s end their pile could ride the recovery to riches.
For such people I have a word from God. The word is: Don’t desire to be rich. It will kill you. And in a world like ours many will probably perish with you. Paul’s language is more graphic than mine:
There is great gain in godliness with contentment, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content.
But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils.
It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs. (1Timothy 6:6-10)
Rebbecca in Texas. The dark ages, in my opinion indicates any time when the church has absolute authority over the lives of the people.
The dark ages are going on right now in Iran and in the united states, people like yourself and Ray are really wishing and hoping for their return.
The dark ages occur whenever the dark, moldy, smothering lies of religion cover up the light of freedom.
So, are any believers here willing to state absolutely what will happen in the coming weeks?
Of course they're not. Those who claim to believe the end is nigh are merely wishing for it to be true.
They aren't honest enough to admit this, either to themselves or their critics.
Wow Ray, so you're prescribing that everyone deposits whatever little they have left into your account?
Like I said before, you're just an opportunist. Good luck with your dumb predictions. I'm sure there are a fair number who believe you. Let me know how much more you profited from this latest attempt at "pulling the wool."
In five years time when the current financial crisis is just a memory, the end of the world and judgement day have not arrived and the world is back to stability/normality will you then retract your claims about God and accept that you are wrong in your belief, or will you conveniently forget this blog entry and/or conveniently overlook it.
I put it to you that whatever the Developed nations are going through now and for the next few years does not even remotely compare to the suffering that has and is being experienced throughout the developing wall for the last hundred years, or moreso is not even close to the suffering endured by the western world as they struggled through two world wars.
On a side note, and feel free to remove it if this is not in context, why do you have three quotes, out of context, from atheists, at the top of this blog in an attempt to disprove the things that those three Scientists firmly believed in?
In five years time when the current financial crisis is just a memory, the end of the world and judgement day have not arrived and the world is back to stability/normality will you then retract your claims about God and accept that you are wrong in your belief, or will you conveniently forget this blog entry and/or conveniently overlook it.
I put it to you that whatever the Developed nations are going through now and for the next few years does not even remotely compare to the suffering that has and is being experienced throughout the developing wall for the last hundred years, or moreso is not even close to the suffering endured by the western world as they struggled through two world wars.
On a side note, and feel free to remove it if this is not in context, why do you have three quotes, out of context, from atheists, at the top of this blog in an attempt to disprove the things that those three Scientists firmly believed in?
Whateverman said, "This blog is an excellent example of blind faith being all too willing to drag civilization back into the dark ages."
Rebecca in TX said...Please specify what you mean by dark ages.
Froggie said...Rebecca, you live in them.
I gather from what you have said that today's current society is the dark ages? But then that does not make any sense because how can Christians drag us back to where we already are. Please correct me if I am wrong. I often hear atheist make the claim that Christians want to "drag civilization back to the dark ages." Please explain specifically what is meant by this statement. What is meant by the term dark ages?
I only wonder why the Christians don't get together and just ask Jesus to end the crisis.
After all, he did promise that he would anser your prayers.
Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14 we find the same thing:
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
When a person says, "ask anything in my name, and I will do it," what does he mean? Presumably, Jesus means that if you ask for anything, he will do it. What else could he possibly mean, unless he is being dishonest? And Jesus does not say it once. He says the same thing over and over again. In Matthew 7:7: "Ask, and it will be given to you." In Matthew 17:20: "Nothing will be impossible for you." In Matthew 21:21: "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."
What's going on with this?
Did anyone else ever wonder?
@Rex Mundane
If I didn't look at the not-so-subtle hints in you profile, I'd never have caught you as a Poe.
It's sad that an honest effort to sound crazy is still less crazy then the honest attempt of a fundy to sound sane...
In other news:
Today
Economy: Asia still largely immune to American economic collapse, Europe weathering the storm very well, Afrika poor as always.
Popular opinion: World points and laughs at US economic policy, learns not to spend non-existant money.
Religion: No change is flood of believers claiming "the end is neigh", marking a new record.
I would not dare answer that questions...
PLEASE PLEASE HEED THESE WARNINGS:
"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap." Galatians 6:7
"Fools mock at sin, but among the upright there is favor." Proverbs 14:9
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only" (Matthew 24:36).
"For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night" (1 Thessalonians 5:2).
Keep Preaching it RAY!!! We love you!
@froggie-
"I only wonder why the Christians don't get together and just ask Jesus to end the crisis."
I'm asking God to send more of the same. My prayer is that He would judge this wicked world.
These are as the days of Lot and Noah. I pray for the destruction of Satan's kingdom and the birth of the Kingdom of God. No matter how painful.
Squawk said: In five years time when the current financial crisis is just a memory, the end of the world and judgement day have not arrived and the world is back to stability/normality will you then retract your claims about God and accept that you are wrong in your belief, or will you conveniently forget this blog entry and/or conveniently overlook it.
I think we all (believer and non-believer alike) know that answer to this question...
Ray,
I do love you man, but good grief, you decided to go *this* direction with the world-wide economic collapse?
While i do not deny that this *COULD* (I repeat. . . COULD) be the harbinger of the anti-christ and the feared one world government, I also have the good sense to know that it could just be another example of failing to use biblical wisdom and prudence in our economy.
For all we know Ray, the anti-christ could be thousands of years away.
Then again, he could be thousands of seconds away. . . who knows?
Whateverman said...
Rebecca (in Texas) asked me to Please specify what you mean by dark ages.
The term is very accurately descibed if you Google the phrase "dark ages", and choose the Wikipedia link.
Having consulted this link, it would appear that I've made a very common error, which is to use the phrase inaccurately. Still, my inference was that the Middle Ages was a "time of ignorance and superstition", the blame for which is to be laid on the Christian Church for allegedly 'placing the word of religious authorities over personal experience and rational activity'"
I see, it is your perception that anyone who believes in God is superstitious and ignorant. How sad. To make judgments about ones intelligence with out any concrete evidence of that persons intelligence level is just presupposition and speculation. Definitely a conversation killer when you stoop to personal attacks.
Don said...
Rebbecca in Texas. The dark ages, in my opinion indicates any time when the church has absolute authority over the lives of the people.
The dark ages are going on right now in Iran and in the united states, people like yourself and Ray are really wishing and hoping for their return.
The dark ages occur whenever the dark, moldy, smothering lies of religion cover up the light of freedom.
I don't want the church to have absolute authority over the country and I don't know any Christians who do. The Catholic church of the middle ages is a different religion entirely. It was the Protestant Christians that brought freedom where there was oppression. Have you ever studied the reformation? I frankly can't imagine what would make you think that Christians want to go to a different religion back in time. This country was founded by Christians and we all know that control of the state by one religion was not their intent. That is what they were escaping from! You are clearly wrong on this point.
@beamstalk rocky s.
Where are your sources for talk of war overseas?
Whateverman said: Rebecca (in Texas) asked me to "Please specify what you mean by dark ages."
The term is very accurately descibed if you Google the phrase "dark ages", and choose the Wikipedia link.
Having consulted this link, it would appear that I've made a very common error, which is to use the phrase inaccurately. Still, my inference was that the Middle Ages was a "time of ignorance and superstition", the blame for which is to be laid on the Christian Church for allegedly 'placing the word of religious authorities over personal experience and rational activity'"
Rebecca then said: I see, it is your perception that anyone who believes in God is superstitious and ignorant. How sad. To make judgments about ones intelligence with out any concrete evidence of that persons intelligence level is just presupposition and speculation. Definitely a conversation killer when you stoop to personal attacks.
A) There wasn't one single personal attack anywhere to be found in anything I wrote. Not one. Criticism of Christian fundamentalism? Yes. Insults? Nope
B) Claiming that Christian fundamentalists wish to drag us back into the dark ages (sic) is not an attack on people who believe in God. I understand that it's comforting to believe otherwise, Rebecca - but take note that I've never even implied my comments were directed at Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Prtoestants, etc.
We are discussing Christian fundamentalism. Your inability to understand this does nothing to refute my opinion.
C) If you're going to attempt to carry on a conversation with me, respond only to what I've written - not to what you THINK I'm trying to say.
FFS
Dani' El said...
I'm asking God to send more of the same. My prayer is that He would judge this wicked world.
These are as the days of Lot and Noah. I pray for the destruction of Satan's kingdom and the birth of the Kingdom of God. No matter how painful.
Thanks for proving my point. I am usually a conservative voter but I would urge US voters not to put evangelicals into power at a time when they are apparently wishing doom upon the world.
Rebecca wrote:
I see, it is your perception that anyone who believes in God is superstitious and ignorant. How sad. To make judgments about ones intelligence with out any concrete evidence of that persons intelligence level is just presupposition and speculation.
"Ignorance" does not suggest a lack of intelligence, neither does superstition.
Superstition simply suggests a tendency to believe without evidence. While it does suggest a lack of critical thinking, it does not mean an inability to think if one chose to.
Ignorance simply means not knowing something. I, for example, am ignorant of the various ways to score in golf. That doesn't mean I'm not intelligent, just that I don't know much about golf.
So it is possible to be intelligent yet remain ignorant of science and reality and choose superstition instead.
rebecca in tx said :
I don't want the church to have absolute authority over the country and I don't know any Christians who do.
endquote
Let's see I shall say George Bush's speech where he refers to God wanting the world to be deomcratic. Mike Huckabee's statements that he as president would work to make this country more in line with biblical law.
Those are just two very high profile ones, there are other that are not so high profile.
Quote
The Catholic church of the middle ages is a different religion entirely. It was the Protestant Christians that brought freedom where there was oppression. Have you ever studied the reformation?
endquote
Why yes yes I have studied that era in history. the rulers taht supported Protestantism broke from the Church of Rome so that they could actually rule their own countries and keep the lands that were the churchs to greatly enrich their coffers.
Quote
I frankly can't imagine what would make you think that Christians want to go to a different religion back in time. This country was founded by Christians and we all know that control of the state by one religion was not their intent.
endquote
Oh so very wrong. I shall refer you back to the "blue laws" that were enacted by the puritans and in many cases are still enforced in a number of states. Try and by any alcohol on a Sunday in Georgia for example.
quote
That is what they were escaping from! You are clearly wrong on this point.
endquote
Again oh so wrong. And oh so oversimplified. there is alot more background to go into than can be gone in this format. Short story, puritans were a radical offshoot of Calvinism and they oculd not get along with other members of the Church of England or other Protestant sects for that matter.
So misleading at best there rebecca.
To force a nation to become Christian would be to counter the Bible. That is how you get a bunch of godless hypocrites. God does not force Himself on unbelievers. You get to reject Him if you want to. Our founding fathers who where Christians did not force all Americans to become Anglicans or Lutherans, etc. Will our Christianity influence our law making decisions? Of course, just as your beliefs inform your decisions and our fore fathers were influenced by their Christian beliefs. Politicians promoting democracy has nothing to do with Christians wanting to make Christianity the rule of the land. To whateverman, I think you are being very dishonest when you say you weren't personally attacking Christian's with your comment. It certainly was not a compliment so let's have a little personal integrity here and be honest. To the comment about the puritans and blue laws lets be honest here. To say that laws ban drinking or work on Sunday are evidence of Christians wanting to rule the land you have to do better than that. All Christians want is to be able to have the freedom to practice their religion when and where they want and to have free speech. After all these are constitutional rights, but something that a large group of atheists and secular humanists would love to take from us. We don't want someone else forcing their morals and values on us telling us what we can say and can't say. We especially don't want them to indoctrinate our children with values that go against our beliefs. We don't want the Bible to be treated like contraband, The Ten Commandments to be censored, street preachers to be jailed. These things have been happening to Christians in this country for years, we are standing up and saying no to them. Atheists and secular humanists do not like that. They want us silenced or put in a corner where no one will see or here what we have to say. And above all they want control and for everyone to conform to their ideology. Have you been in a public school lately?
@ andy
"Thanks for proving my point. I am usually a conservative voter but I would urge US voters not to put evangelicals into power at a time when they are apparently wishing doom upon the world."
And thank you for proving my point.
If you don't want an end to the mass murder of the unborn, the gross greed and materialism, the child sex slaves, the death disease and war etc?
Then that says a lot about your heart. These are birth pains, and what is being born is a Kingdom of peace and prosperity for 1000 years. I guess you would rather abort that child to preserve Satan's kingdom?
Not me. I say, "come Lord Jesus!" because I know what is being born. I see the mother in pain and fear and I dont enjoy it one bit, but again, I know what is being born.
BTW. True believers like myself arent doing anything to cause these things, and we take no pleasure in them. We just know what is coming from them, and rejoice. When people are driven to their knees, then they seek God and are saved.
Scripture teaches that God chastens and rebukes all He recieves as children, and when His judgments are in the earth, men learn righteousness. So these troubles are from Him for good.
Rex: I also wouldn't have called it if your own blog wasn't a dead givaway. Congrats on being an excellent example of Poe's law in action.
You're "I give up" post was inspiring. Thanks.
If you don't want an end to the mass murder of the unborn, the gross greed and materialism, the child sex slaves, the death disease and war etc?
Then that says a lot about your heart.
As does that post your intellect.
The Bible makes no testable predictions. It therefore stands to reason there's no way to assess their accuracy either.
- Whateverman
(I'm not going to address everything in your post at this time.)
Rebecca in TX said...
"...All Christians want is to be able to have the freedom to practice their religion when and where they want and to have free speech..."
And I would defend to the death you right to do so.
"...After all these are constitutional rights, but something that a large group of atheists and secular humanists would love to take from us..."
I know of absolutely NO instance of any atheist or secular humanist attempting to inhibit the rights of Christians to practice their religion in any non-government sponsored place or event. Atheists and secularists object to the endorsement of any religion by our government, be it Christianity, Islam, or Pastafarianism.
"...We don't want someone else forcing their morals and values on us telling us what we can say and can't say..."
The same can be said for atheists and secularists.
"...We especially don't want them to indoctrinate our children with values that go against our beliefs..."
But you think it's ok for Christians to impose their morals and superstitious beliefs into our public schools? You live in Texas do you not? Have you not paid any attention to our SBoE? I promise you that the far right majority of the SBoE will do everything they can to water down the subject of evolution in the new curriculum. Do you not remember how they recently disregarded curriculum recommendations proposed by professional educators and ramrodded through their own version (which was cobbled together by a few right wing members the night before the vote)?
"...We don't want the Bible to be treated like contraband, The Ten Commandments to be censored, street preachers to be jailed..."
Keep them out of government institutions and you can do as you please with them. No one is trying is trying to control how or what you believe. We merely demand that government does not show preference to any religion.
By the way. Can you name even one occurance where any street preacher has been arrested for merely preaching? More likely than not, said preacher did something (other than preach) to warrant incarceration.
"...These things have been happening to Christians in this country for years, we are standing up and saying no to them..."
Cry me a river. If Christians respected the Constitution and the rights of others, such would not be happening.
..."Atheists and secular humanists do not like that. They want us silenced or put in a corner where no one will see or here what we have to say...
Not at all. You have the right to say and believe what you wish. You simply do not have the right to use the government to promote your religion. If you wish to display a 30 foot cross in your privately owned front yard, more power to you. Just don't try to do so on government owned property.
"...And above all they want control and for everyone to conform to their ideology..."
Nonsense. We are not telling anyone what they should believe. That's your job as a parent. We do however, do everything within our power to see to it that our children are not cheated of a quality 21st century education by those who seek to impose bronze age superstition into our schools.
..."Have you been in a public school lately?
Actually, yes. Quite often at that. My daughter recently graduated and I have a granddaughter still in attendance. Guess what. Before every home football game, with disregard to and in direct violation of the Constitution, the announcer offers up a prayer to the Christian God. I matters not to the announcer or to the Christiam majority attending that by doing so they violate the rights of others. I wonder how they would react to a Wiccan or Muslim prayer before the game? I'm pretty sure that they believe in freedom of religion only as long as the religion in question is Christianity.
Whateverman: "As does that post your intellect."
Argumentum Ad Hominem.
Look it up. It is usually a good sign of a defeated foe, or a weak mind or argument, and you went there.
rebecca in tx said :
To say that laws ban drinking or work on Sunday are evidence of Christians wanting to rule the land you have to do better than that.
endquote
Actually no I do not. Right there is a blantant example of Christian morality legislated to everyone. You do not have a choice as to whether or not those laws are obeyed, they are the law and if you break it you get fined or thrown in jail. In any number of the Puritan colonies if you did not follow the moral laws laid down then you got tossed into the stocks,jailed or fined. You did not get the opportunity to say "well I am not a member of your religous goups so those laws do not apply to me."
So sorry, try again.
Whateverman said: "As does that post your intellect."
Dani'el said: Argumentum Ad Hominem.
Look it up. It is usually a good sign of a defeated foe, or a weak mind or argument, and you went there.
Don't confuse an insult with a logical inconsistency. I wasn't making an argument - I was calling you less than intelligent.
The fact that you intentionally misread Andy's argument (in order to make yours sound more reasonable) speaks volumes.
In short: the soapbox that resulted from your Straw Man has no merit.
Making a law allowing same sex marriage is a moral law. Aren't most laws based on someone's morals? Or is it, only laws based on Christian morals are bad to you?
bob said...
@beamstalk rocky s.
Where are your sources for talk of war overseas?
This really doesn't deserve a response. Do you know your history at all bob? 1931 Japan invades Manchuria, 1937 Japan invades China, 1938 Germany "annexes" Austria.
Dani' El said...
Whateverman: "As does that post your intellect."
Argumentum Ad Hominem.
Look it up. It is usually a good sign of a defeated foe, or a weak mind or argument, and you went there.
Kind of like when Ray went there by saying I was a proud, greedy, stupid jerk before I was a Christian, but I wasn’t dense enough to be an atheist (see Psalm 14:1). I’m embarrassed to think that any professed rational human being could be so mentally deficient to be one (see Romans 1:22). I don’t know where you heard that I denied the existence of God, but I never did. Not for a moment.?
I notice that he's put in bible verses in that post now. We all know why: he can say that it's "God" saying that, not him. Tough. If he agrees with it, then it's also him saying it.
Don said...
Jinx. You are a bumbling racist fool.
How am I racist? Because I called Obama "a bumbling fool and an ill-experienced public speaker whose tongue-tied stuttering is laughable?" Where did I ever mention race?
Besides, if I WERE racist (which I am not - only liars say I am), how could I be racist against someone who isn't even black? Heck, he's half my race! Wouldn't I be racist against myself?
Rebecca in TX said...
Making a law allowing same sex marriage is a moral law. Aren't most laws based on someone's morals? Or is it, only laws based on Christian morals are bad to you?
endquote
When the law is based solely upon some religious principle than yes I am in disagreement with it. Am I against murder? yes I am. Am I against rape? absolutely. Am I against theft? why yes I am also.
Am I for a woman wearing a one eye burka? no I am not. Am I for forbidding work on Saturdays or Sundays, again no?
Are you in favor of fining all people that do not go to church on Sundays ? Are you in favor of beating or in some cases burning those with a religion different than yours ?
And no I am not against Christian morality in the public place. I am against any religious morality being upheld as the be all and end all of morality.
Largest one day gain in history for the Dow Jones. I guess it will take at least a few more days for Jesus to get here.
looks like the dow made a decent recovery today :)
@whateverman
Hey Jon. I directed a comment to you last Friday, and this morning I saw that you responded the same day. I apologize for the delay in getting back to you. I intended my comment (about writing down your remark and using it in your defense at the Last Judgment) to be a conversation starter, but I'm having computer problems and the only way I can access the internet is to borrow a computer (like now) or use the system at the public library.
Anyway, about prophecies, am I correct in assuming that you reject the O.T. prophecies that were fulfilled at the time of Jesus? I understand that Daniel's "70 weeks (of years)" prophecy of the coming messiah places the time of fulfillment at A.D. 27. This is the approximate time of the beginning of Jesus' ministry. (I am using the notes in the New Geneva Study Bible.)
Jesus' prediction that he would be killed, then resurrected after three days was verified by those who saw him, but I am guessing that this doesn't fit your criteria. (?)
Jesus' prophecy of the destruction of the temple within the generation of those hearing him was fulfilled in A.D.70.
Believing the a-millennial view to be the most probable scenario, I understand the "end times" to be the period between Christ's first and second advent. The wars, famines, pestilences, devaluation of money, etc. of Revelation are events that would occur throughout the church age, but will happen all at once and all over the earth toward the end.
Paul's prophecy of the "great apostasy" preceding the revelation of the "man of sin" has yet to be fulfilled. The church is still preaching the Gospel throughout the world. (There have been lesser apostasies and Antichrists from time to time.)
These are some of the things I was thinking of bringing up if we had had an exchange of comments over the week-end. Feel free to respond on this thread or the next time the subject comes up. Email me if you like.
Craig B.
p.s. (I always look forward to reading your posts. You are always polite, and often witty.)
Craig B said: I always look forward to reading your posts
Thanks for the polite response and kind words, Craig. Give me a day (or two) to review the stuff we've discussed and I'll make an honest attempt to respond to you. It's going to take me a little bit of time to research in order to be able to respond knowledgably.
iago said...When the law is based solely upon some religious principle than yes I am in disagreement with it.
That would be discrimination based on a person's religion or view point. Everyone's viewpoints are allowed unless they are religious. Sorry that doesn't fly. It is unconstitutional.
rufus wrote- "Largest one day gain in history for the Dow Jones. I guess it will take at least a few more days for Jesus to get here."
The point being made is that they saved the system how? International Socialism. The progression to worldwide totalitarian socialism is what is prophesied.
And sadly America and the world has returned to its vomit.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
All they are doing is sandbagging against a tsunami. Most tsunamis come in several waves, this was the first. The foundational problems remain, and the other shoe is sure to drop and soon. Besides, how many more disasters can the insurance business bear before they go bust?
iago said: When the law is based solely upon some religious principle than yes I am in disagreement with it.
Rebecca in TX responded:
"That would be discrimination based on a person's religion or view point. Everyone's viewpoints are allowed unless they are religious. Sorry that doesn't fly. It is unconstitutional."
Perhaps you should make an effort to learn a little about the constitution.
It doesn't matter at all if even 99% of the population agree that a law based on a religious belief should be enacted. The 1st amendment strictly prohibits government endorsement of religion...any religion. The only way to change the situation would be through amendment to the constitution.
You are free to hold any viewpoint you wish. You are not free to have your religion enforced by the government.
ATTN: Stranger.Strange.Land
This is very long, and I apologize. I tend to be verbose, and wanted to address as much as possible - and it resulted in the essay you see before you. Sorry about this. If you'd like to pursue this via email from now on, my address should be available through my profile.
SiSL wrote am I correct in assuming that you reject the O.T. prophecies that were fulfilled at the time of Jesus?
This is correct; I do reject them. This is primarily because I reject the notion that the Bible was divinely influenced (not just inspired). I find scripture to make much more sense generally if we take it to be made up of a few dozen human authors, describing both factual information and conveying morality in the form of parables.
Assuming this (and I know it's something Christians won't necessarily accept), biblical prohpecy may very well represent retrofitting fact to fit the story, or may be fabrication. It may actually be valid, but I don't find that idea very credible (though I can't reject it out of turn).
Jesus' prediction that he would be killed, then resurrected after three days was verified by those who saw him, but I am guessing that this doesn't fit your criteria. (?)
I don't know what to think; I'm uncertain about the factual basis of Jesus' resurrection. My religious upbringing makes me receptive to the idea - but to be honest, there's a vast and impassable terrain between accepting it and accepting the Bible as anything more than a collage of stories, myth and possibly factual accounts penned by fallible humans.
Believing the a-millennial view to be the most probable scenario, I understand the "end times" to be the period between Christ's first and second advent.
I (fairly confidently) assume that you reject claims made by other religions that they indeed worship the being spawned by that second incarnation? That sounded awkward, but I mean: there are claims that Jesus was reborn and actually showed up when he said he would (according to Biblical interpretation).
I'm not sure that I accept the stories of his rebirth, but it seems apparent that most Christians do. In any case, I guess I'm just commenting, not trying to open a new avenue for discussion.
The wars, famines, pestilences, devaluation of money, etc. of Revelation are events that would occur throughout the church age, but will happen all at once and all over the earth toward the end.
Ok, but these things have occurred before, and despite claims that End Times were Nigh, the world continued on as it has always done.
Although the world is a scary place today, I see nothing even remotely supernatural going on. I even have plausible explanations for how our perception that things are escalating; simply put, the world's crowded, and communication is instant and ubiquitous. Back in the day when communities could exist and be relatively oblivious of each other's little dramas, that's no longer possible.
Our awareness of the globe has increased, as has our footprint across it. It makes sense that, over the last 100 years, we've begun to perceive more than we ever thought possible; information overload.
Anyhow, that's just a theory. It may or may not explain the perception that things are rapidly getting worse.
---
I'm not a Biblical scholar, and don't claim to be. The investigation of Biblical prophecy, when principles of skepticism are applied, reveals that a lot of "interpretation" is required in order to identify some part of the scripture as prophetic - even moreso to conclude that it came true.
Regardless of whether I believe Ray's claim that Nostradamus stole from scripture, understanding his writings requires the same amount of post-script interpretation. It's almost impossible to look at Nostradamus' writings, perceive the prediction being made, and then wait to see if they come true.
This is the nature of prophesy, and is not unique to the Bible, Nostradamus, or anyone that might be accuratey labelled "mystic". It's ALL intentionally vague, and can rarely be interpretted as predicting specific things happening to specific people/places at specific times. Seriously, to date every time I've heard someone saying "The Bible predicts X will happen", the date has come to pass, and nothing has happened. I understand that the nature of faith will ensure these predictions will continue to be made - each with just as much fervor as the previous one.
I remain skeptical but not close minded. If someone can quote scripture and show in terms of modern history that it did actually come to pass, I will freely admit it.
But a single book displaying "This will come to pass", and then several pages later displaying "Zomg it did! Woot!" is not evidence that I find credible. Using faith to validate your faith is not a reliable way with which to perceive the world we live in.
Rebecca in TX said...
That would be discrimination based on a person's religion or view point. Everyone's viewpoints are allowed unless they are religious. Sorry that doesn't fly. It is unconstitutional.
enquote
I shall refer you to the United States Constitution
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
endquote
Based on the 1st Amendment, any law based upon a religious principle alone is in violation of the Constitution.
Dani'el did bleat The point being made is that they saved the system how? International Socialism. The progression to worldwide totalitarian socialism is what is prophesied.
This was never predicted by any one or any thing credible. It wasn't even suggested in the Bible.
iago said: "When the law is based solely upon some religious principle than yes I am in disagreement with it."
Rebecca in TX said: That would be discrimination based on a person's religion or view point.
BZZZT. Incorrect.
Crafting a law that affects everyone based on the religious beliefs of a minority is unconstitutional. Being opposed to such a law is just, moral and indeed patriotic.
In the US
WEM,
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Iago said...I shall refer you to the United States Constitution
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
endquote
Based on the 1st Amendment, any law based upon a religious principle alone is in violation of the Constitution.
You are so wrong. The first amendment says that Congress may not make a law that establishes a religion. That means they wanted to avoid what happened in England where the religion that everyone followed was chosen by the King. Nobody could practice any other religion. No where in the first amendment does it say anything about religious principles.
Chuck,
Endorse and establish have two very different definitions. Go look them up. The 1st Amendment clearly says "establish", not "endorse". For a law to be established, someone must write a bill. That bill must go through a process before it is signed into law by the president. If it fails at any point in the process then the bill does not become a law. Establishing a law is very different from allowing something. That means that you can not pass a law that choose one religion and forces everyone in the country to follow only that religion. If you read a little further in the 1st Amendment, it also says that Congress make no law prohibiting the free exercise thereof or the freedom of speech. It doesn't say unless that speech is religious.
Whateverman said...Crafting a law that affects everyone based on the religious beliefs of a minority is unconstitutional.
Please show where it states that in the Constitution.
The US Constitution said: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
Rebecca in TX said: You are so wrong. The first amendment says that Congress may not make a law that establishes a religion.
Rebecca, please consult the constitution (as represented by the quote at the beginning of my post here), and then review what you said.
YOU are wrong in your interpretation, and the evidence couldn't be more clear than the constitution itself
Dani'el did rather obbliviously write: WEM,
Rev 13:16 {EDIT: removed for the sake of brevity}
Rev 13:17 {EDIT: removed for the sake of brevity}
I'm not a Bible believer. This means quoting scripture at me is the equivalent of trying to convey your opinions via interpretive dance.
Wem:This was never predicted by any one or any thing credible. {It wasn't even suggested in the Bible.}
Dan: Here it is "suggested" in the bible. (totalitarian socialism)
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
So I prove it is in fact in the bible and Wem responds with-
"I'm not a Bible believer. This means quoting scripture at me is the equivalent of trying to convey your opinions via interpretive dance."
Huh? Talk about tap dancin! lol!
Dani' El said...
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
So, I've checked my right hand and can't see any mark that wasn't there before, same with my forehead. I guess that's strike one.
Buy or sell what exactly?
What, exactly, is the mark?
What beast, and what is it's name?
And what on Earth does "the number of his name" mean in English?
My interpretation of the above is "some people will get a number tattooed on their hand or forehead and if they don't have that, or a spare cow, they won't be allowed to go shopping or hold a garage/yard sale"
I'm not seeing any reference to a one-world government or socialism.
Rebecca in TX said...
Iago said...I shall refer you to the United States Constitution
...Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,...
You are so wrong. The first amendment says that Congress may not make a law that establishes a religion.
So did iago misquote the Constitution because, if not, you seem to be having difficulty reading it.
Wikipedia says:
"The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits the establishment of a national religion by the Congress or the preference of one religion over another, or religion over non-religion."
(my bolding)
So it would seem that making a law to benefit one religion would be contrary to the stated principle.
For arguments sake, would you support any US law that forced women to wear Muslim dress, in respect of Muslim wishes? If not, why not? It would be "establishing" a religion would it? So it should be constitutional, according to your interpretation.
Rebecca said: Please show where it states that in the Constitution.
The US Constitution replied: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
A suggestion is not a prediction or prophecy. Tattooed numbers do not a totalitarian socialist society make.
Quoting Biblical passages at me and expecting me to interpret them the same way you do is intellectually dishonest. If you want me to give credit to scripture, you may feel free to quote it - but a quote without an explanation conveys zero meaning.
You appear to be unable to explain Biblical scipture to other people. Does this suggest you lack understanding of such scripture? If you find a mere quote to be capable of conveying meaning, without explanation of your interpretation of that quote, then I've got one for you in return:
St Augustine, written ~1600 years ago:
It is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn.
For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.
After repeatedly pointing out that Constitution does not allow for laws to be made soley on religious..and repeatedly saying that 'No it doesn't" can I call POE on Rebecca from tx?
Iago saked: can I call POE on Rebecca from tx?
I actually think she's sincere...
Andy- So, I've checked my right hand and can't see any mark that wasn't there before, same with my forehead. I guess that's strike one.
Dani'El- Wait for it.
Andy- Buy or sell what exactly?
Dan- Anything and everything. Totalitarian socialism.
Andy- What, exactly, is the mark?
Dan- There has been a lot of speculation on this, but in recent years chip implants have been developed that fit the bill. I think it may be a combination of a chip implant and tattoo for visible ID by the authorities.
Totalitarian socialist fascism.
Andy-What beast, and what is it's name?
Dan- To be revealed soon. The great apostasy or falling away appears to be fulfilled today and that's a prerequisite for his revelation. Most Christians, including myself believe he is alive today and waiting for his time.
Andy-And what on Earth does "the number of his name" mean in English?
Dan- Much speculation on what this means. I dont know, but some think it could be calculated in some way.
Andy- My interpretation of the above is "some people will get a number tattooed on their hand or forehead and if they don't have that, or a spare cow, they won't be allowed to go shopping or hold a garage/yard sale"
Dan- Cute. But it's not going to be nice. There are going to be concentration camps, beheadings of those who refuse the mark, terrible inflation, wars even nuclear war, terrorism, like the world has never known. BTW, many of the military bases in America that were shut down during the Clinton Admin have been turned into prison camps, complete with Aushwitz style train tracks and prison train cars. Google it. FEMA was actually created to enforce martial law, and they have an american SS in Blackwater.
Andy-I'm not seeing any reference to a one-world government or socialism.
Curly- I can't see! I CAN'T SEE!
Larry- Whatsa matta?
Curly blinking- My eyes were closed! Nyuk! Nyuk!
Moe- Slap! poke! punch!
Dow plunges 733 as new data points to recession -
Death throws? Convulsions?
And from France to China they are calling for one world govt. to save the economy.
Just as prophet Al the Gore is calling for One World Govt to save the environment.
And as the world is dividing into economic zones, the EU, the African Union, the South American Union, and even yes, the North American Union, the 10 toes of Daniels vision are taking form.
All of it fulfilled prophecy written thousands of years ago, proving that the Bible is a supernatural book.
@Whateverman
Thanks Jon. I just read your response (essay :) posted yesterday. Well thought out, and I agree with much of what you said.
Thank you for being willing to discuss this further; in emails if necessary, but an open forum would be best. It would be good for others to get in on the conversation. Do you agree?
As I mentioned earlier, I believe the "end times" (or "last days") to be the period between Jesus' ascension and his second coming in judgment. The wars, famines, etc. of Revelation have occurred, and will occur, throughout this period. I think that is what Jesus, through John, was telling the church. The "falling away" followed by the revelation of "the man of sin", (2 Thessalonians) will indicate that the next, and final, sign will be that of the actual coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (I don't think a pre-tribulation "rapture" is found in scripture.)
That should give you a glimpse of where I am coming from concerning this fascinating topic.
Until next we meet, I will review your post from yesterday, and comment further. I don't know when I will be on line again with my own computer, hopefully soon.
Craig B.
If you want to say that putting a book in a school library so people can read it is establishing a law, you are wrong and that is what I am talking about. If you think that by using a specific person's name in a student's graduation speech is establishing a law that is not how the process works. Posting the US motto in a school classroom or The Ten Commandments in a courthouse is not how a government establishes a law. That is not how any law in this country is established. You say these actions, if having anything religious attached to it, constitute the establishment of a law. Sorry I strongly disagree. Go look up how a bill becomes a law. We must follow laws that have been signed into law not declared it is a law through someone’s action like saying a prayer. Just because someone says a prayer, does not mean that the government just established that religion as a law and everyone in the country must now become that religion because the government allowed the prayer to be said. Yet you have falsely been lead to believe that it does. Christians do not want to establish laws that force everyone to convert to Christianity. We want to be allowed the free practice of our religion. We don’t want the government to establish laws that prohibit the free practice of religion. Our founding fathers were Christian and our government was based on Christian principles. They in no way ever intended for every trace of religion to be removed from government or public life. Yet here you are evidence that many would love to do that. Here is some evidence from historical documents to support my claims. I hope you take the time to read it as I think you need some eye opening as to our true history.
Fisher Ames
Framer of the First Amendment
Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers.
(Source: Fisher Ames, An Oration on the Sublime Virtues of General George Washington (Boston: Young & Minns, 1800), p. 23.)
A Proclamation for Prayer
By the President of the United States of America James Madison
Whereas the Congress of the United States, by a joint resolution of the two Houses have signified a request, that a day may be recommended, to be observed by the people of the United States, with religious solemnity, as a day of public humiliation and prayer: and
Whereas such a recommendation will enable the several religious denominations and societies so disposed, to offer, at one and the same time, their common vows and adorations to Almighty God, on the solemn occasion produced by the war, in which He has been pleased to permit the injustice of a foreign Power to involve these United States;
I do therefore recommend a convenient day to be set apart, for the devout purposes of rendering the Sovereign of the Universe, and the Benefactor of Mankind. The public homage due to His holy attributes; of acknowledging the transgressions which might justly provoke the manifestations of His divine displeasure; of seeking his merciful forgiveness, and His assistance in the great duties of repentance and amendment; and, especially, of offering fervent supplications, that, in the present season of calamity and war, He would take the American people under His peculiar care and protection; that He would guide their public councils, animate their patriotism, and bestow His blessing on their arms; that He would inspire all nations with a love of justice and of concord, and with a reverence for the unerring precept of our holy religion, to do to others as they would require that others should do to them; and, finally, that turning the hearts of our enemies from the violence and injustice which sway their councils against us, He would hasten a restoration of the blessings of peace.
Given at Washington, the 9th day of July, A. D. 1812
[Source: James D. Richardson, A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents (Washington: Bureau of National Literature, 1897), Vol. II, p. 498]
John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States
[I]t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.
(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, to Zabdiel Adams on June 21, 1776.)
[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)
The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.
(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1851), Vol. VI, p. 9.)
John Quincy Adams
Sixth President of the United States
The law given from Sinai was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code; it contained many statutes . . . of universal application-laws essential to the existence of men in society, and most of which have been enacted by every nation which ever professed any code of laws.
(Source: John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams, to His Son, on the Bible and Its Teachings (Auburn: James M. Alden, 1850), p. 61.)
There are three points of doctrine the belief of which forms the foundation of all morality. The first is the existence of God; the second is the immortality of the human soul; and the third is a future state of rewards and punishments. Suppose it possible for a man to disbelieve either of these three articles of faith and that man will have no conscience, he will have no other law than that of the tiger or the shark. The laws of man may bind him in chains or may put him to death, but they never can make him wise, virtuous, or happy.
(Source: John Quincy Adams, Letters of John Quincy Adams to His Son on the Bible and Its Teachings (Auburn: James M. Alden, 1850), pp. 22-23.)
Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.
(Source: Bernard C. Steiner, The Life and Correspondence of James McHenry (Cleveland: The Burrows Brothers, 1907), p. 475. In a letter from Charles Carroll to James McHenry of November 4, 1800.)
Oliver Ellsworth
Chief-Justice of the Supreme Court
[T]he primary objects of government are the peace, order, and prosperity of society. . . . To the promotion of these objects, particularly in a republican government, good morals are essential. Institutions for the promotion of good morals are therefore objects of legislative provision and support: and among these . . . religious institutions are eminently useful and important. . . . [T]he legislature, charged with the great interests of the community, may, and ought to countenance, aid and protect religious institutions—institutions wisely calculated to direct men to the performance of all the duties arising from their connection with each other, and to prevent or repress those evils which flow from unrestrained passion.
(Source: Connecticut Courant, June 7, 1802, p. 3, Oliver Ellsworth, to the General Assembly of the State of Connecticut)
Benjamin Franklin
Signer of the Constitution and Declaration of Independence
[O]nly a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.
(Source: Benjamin Franklin, The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, Jared Sparks, editor (Boston: Tappan, Whittemore and Mason, 1840), Vol. X, p. 297, April 17, 1787. )
I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.
I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.
(Source: James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. I, pp. 450-452, June 28, 1787.)
More evidence of our religious Christian foundations.
Thomas Jefferson
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Third President of the United States
The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of mankind.
(Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. XV, p. 383.)
I concur with the author in considering the moral precepts of Jesus as more pure, correct, and sublime than those of ancient philosophers.
(Source: Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. X, pp. 376-377. In a letter to Edward Dowse on April 19, 1803.)
James McHenry
Signer of the Constitution
[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.
(Source: Bernard C. Steiner, One Hundred and Ten Years of Bible Society Work in Maryland, 1810-1920 (Maryland Bible Society, 1921), p. 14.)
Jedediah Morse
Patriot and "Father of American Geography"
To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.
(Source: Jedidiah Morse, A Sermon, Exhibiting the Present Dangers and Consequent Duties of the Citizens of the United States of America (Hartford: Hudson and Goodwin, 1799), p. 9.)
William Penn
Founder of Pennsylvania
[I]t is impossible that any people of government should ever prosper, where men render not unto God, that which is God's, as well as to Caesar, that which is Caesar's.
(Source: Fundamental Constitutions of Pennsylvania, 1682. Written by William Penn, founder of the colony of Pennsylvania.)
Pennsylvania Supreme Court
No free government now exists in the world, unless where Christianity is acknowledged, and is the religion of the country.
(Source: Pennsylvania Supreme Court, 1824. Updegraph v. Commonwealth; 11 Serg. & R. 393, 406 (Sup.Ct. Penn. 1824).)
Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence
The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.
(Source: Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical (Philadelphia: Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), p. 8.)
We profess to be republicans, and yet we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government, that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by the means of the Bible. For this Divine Book, above all others, favors that equality among mankind, that respect for just laws, and those sober and frugal virtues, which constitute the soul of republicanism.
(Source: Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical (Philadelphia: Printed by Thomas and William Bradford, 1806), pp. 93-94.)
By renouncing the Bible, philosophers swing from their moorings upon all moral subjects. . . . It is the only correct map of the human heart that ever has been published. . . . All systems of religion, morals, and government not founded upon it [the Bible] must perish, and how consoling the thought, it will not only survive the wreck of these systems but the world itself. "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." [Matthew 1:18]
(Source: Benjamin Rush, Letters of Benjamin Rush, L. H. Butterfield, editor (Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1951), p. 936, to John Adams, January 23, 1807.)
Joseph Story
Supreme Court Justice
Indeed, the right of a society or government to [participate] in matters of religion will hardly be contested by any persons who believe that piety, religion, and morality are intimately connected with the well being of the state and indispensable to the administrations of civil justice. The promulgation of the great doctrines of religion—the being, and attributes, and providence of one Almighty God; the responsibility to Him for all our actions, founded upon moral accountability; a future state of rewards and punishments; the cultivation of all the personal, social, and benevolent virtues—these never can be a matter of indifference in any well-ordered community. It is, indeed, difficult to conceive how any civilized society can well exist without them.
(Source: Joseph Story, A Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1847), p. 260, §442.)
George Washington "Father of Our Country"
While just government protects all in their religious rights, true religion affords to government its surest support.
(Source: George Washington, The Writings of George Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1932), Vol. XXX, p. 432 n., from his address to the Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church in North America, October 9, 1789.)
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of man and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice?
And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who, that is a sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?
(Source: George Washington, Address of George Washington, President of the United States . . . Preparatory to His Declination (Baltimore: George and Henry S. Keatinge), pp. 22-23. In his Farewell Address to the United States in 1796.)
[T]he [federal] government . . . can never be in danger of degenerating into a monarchy, and oligarchy, an aristocracy, or any other despotic or oppressive form so long as there shall remain any virtue in the body of the people.
(Source: George Washington, The Writings of George Washington, John C. Fitzpatrick, editor (Washington: U. S. Government Printing Office, 1939), Vol. XXIX, p. 410. In a letter to Marquis De Lafayette, February 7, 1788.)
Daniel Webster
Early American Jurist and Senator
[I]f we and our posterity reject religious instruction and authority, violate the rules of eternal justice, trifle with the injunctions of morality, and recklessly destroy the political constitution which holds us together, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us that shall bury all our glory in profound obscurity.
(Source: Daniel Webster, The Writings and Speeches of Daniel Webster (Boston: Little, Brown, & Company, 1903), Vol. XIII, p. 492. From "The Dignity and Importance of History," February 23, 1852.)
Noah Webster
Founding Educator
The most perfect maxims and examples for regulating your social conduct and domestic economy, as well as the best rules of morality and religion, are to be found in the Bible. . . . The moral principles and precepts found in the scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws. These principles and precepts have truth, immutable truth, for their foundation. . . . All the evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible. . . . For instruction then in social, religious and civil duties resort to the scriptures for the best precepts.
(Source: Noah Webster, History of the United States, "Advice to the Young" (New Haven: Durrie & Peck, 1832), pp. 338-340, par. 51, 53, 56.)
James Wilson
Signer of the Constitution
Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both.
(Source: James Wilson, The Works of the Honourable James Wilson (Philadelphia: Bronson and Chauncey, 1804), Vol. I, p. 106.)
Robert Winthrop
Former Speaker of the US House of Representatives
Men, in a word, must necessarily be controlled either by a power within them or by a power without them; either by the Word of God or by the strong arm of man; either by the Bible or by the bayonet.
(Source: Robert Winthrop, Addresses and Speeches on Various Occasions (Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1852), p. 172 from his "Either by the Bible or the Bayonet.")
"Iago saked"
I like to think I was trying to make a reference to a good sashimi dinner, but evidence suggests otherwise :p
"Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, ' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. [Matthew 24:4-14]
Whateverman said...
Iago saked: can I call POE on Rebecca from tx?
I actually think she's sincere...
endquote
Oh dear.
Whateverman said...
"Iago saked"
I like to think I was trying to make a reference to a good sashimi dinner, but evidence suggests otherwise :p
endquote
Ah well, I did have a good sushi dinner the night before though.
I wonder if there is any Bibke verse that can be distorted enough to basically come out ' Yea and the unGodly did feast upon fish prepared in a foreign fashion. And verily they did drink beverages that made them unwise and intoxicated from grains not of this region.'
@ Whateverman
I must be brief here because of time limitations. (Yeah, I'm still posting from the library.:( )
Craig: The wars, famines, pestilences, devaluation of money, etc. of Revelation are events that would occur throughout the church age, but will happen all at once and all over the earth toward the end.
Whateverman:"Ok, but these things have occurred before, and despite claims that End Times were Nigh, the world continued on as it has always done.
Although the world is a scary place today, I see nothing even remotely supernatural going on."
I will speak to this point, because it has to do directly with the subject of Ray's post.
Re: "I see nothing even remotely supernatural going on."
God's dealings in this world are almost always done in the realm of the natural. Supernatural events (miracles) are extremely rare.
I said previously that the earthquakes, wars, etc. do repeatedly occur throughout history. I am not one to jump to the conclusion that this time is the big final sign. We may have another generation, century, or longer until the end of the age, and the second coming. To the Christian, the Bible's mentioning these things is to encourage us to maintain our faith in Jesus through these increasingly difficult times. To the unbeliever, they are reminders that nothing in this world is sure enough to depend on ultimately; look to God alone.
Craig B.
long time...no type..forgive me if i get a little rusty with the keyboard!!!
okay, step one...y'all (agnostiests) say "always had famines and rumors of wars etc..." and i am glad to hear it -- that should be expected from both corners...
step two...y'all (athiostics) say "bible predictions are vague and can be interpretted in any way one desires..." and i say WHOAH horsy -- and thankfully, i would expect that from y'all...
step middle...some verses i would dare not call vague:
Zechariah 14:12 This will be the plague with which Yahweh will strike all the peoples who have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh will consume away while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will consume away in their sockets, and their tongue will consume away in their mouth.
Let's see, when the Sampson Doctrine is ennacted by Israel what is going to happen to the unfortunate comrades on the wrong end of the silo??? Yep, just like the good prophet said (thousands of years ago i might add) -- men will be left a standing skeleton INSTANTLY CONSUMED BY THE FERVERENT HEAT OF ATOMIC WARFARE!!! can anyone honestly say that predicting the exact effects of weapons thousands of years away when men are still fighting with sticks and chariots is a vague prophecy??? I might be wrong about this and maybe God breathes a hot wind of His own doing but either way it's gonna be a big "i should have had a V8" commercial going on by those nonbelievers who lived to see it...
let's have another...
"Revelation 13:17 and that no one would be able to buy or to sell, unless he has that mark, the name of the beast or the number of his name."
i can here you cyberthinking -- this hasn't happened -- why would you bring it up if it has failed to pass yet??? And i say let's actually consider the concept:
go back to the days of it's penmanship -- thousands of years prior to computers or even social security numbers let alone bank cards and the such...now, what a crazy concept back then that anyone could track everything bought or sold -- if you look at it from 2008 you may be lulled into thinking this is an ordinary not very precise prophecy...but to consider the prophecy from the point of view of the ancients it would seem scary accurate for sure...
one more then i am going to bed...
"mark 13:10 But first, the gospel must be proclaimed to all nations."
pretty simple there...i think we are about to shut the lid on that gentile endeavor...that is why you should fear the end is near and not some silly market analysis...
i could keep going but God said it best "if they will not be convinced by the prophets..."(regarding the rich man's family) -- don't let yourself ignore the prophets too...
they are DEADLY correct and never wrong...
others you can look up on your own that i know have been put out here before...the city of tyre - still no resettlement there...the rebirth of Israel & Jerusalem a CUP OF TREMBLING -- that's like splitting the arrow already in the bullseye of todays international news!!!...stop believing the prophecies to be wrong on assumption and see what wonderful gifts they are that COULD ONLY COME FROM A TRUE AND ALL KNOWING GOD...
L8er, andrew w.
"admit you were wrong"
Hilarious
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