I subjected myself to about 20 minutes of listening to Howard Stern recently, as he let off steam about the Origin of Species into schools giveaway. I can certainly understand why he is called a shock-jock. Wow! I was really shocked to hear how professionally uninformed he was.
In a mere 20 minutes he managed to mess up American history twice, he kept calling Kirk Cameron a "kid," when Kirk has six kids himself. Mr. Stern had no idea that his last movie brought in more than 34 million dollars. He was confused as to why we are giving the books to students.
Add to that, that he surmised that he was a good person, despite the fact that his vocabulary came directly from the walls of a public restroom. Of course, Howard isn't a good person; he’s just like the rest of us. His dirty mouth revealed his dirty heart.
So it’s my earnest prayer that Mr. Stern finds a place of genuine repentance and faith in Jesus, so that God can cleanse his dirty heart as He did mine, before the Day of Judgment.
Imagine that--Howard Stern a Christian! Now that would be a real shock.
Thursday, November 12, 2009
Mr. Shock Jock
150 comments:
Just think Ray Howard has 20 Million listeners, I mean your trying to reach a couple hundred thousand students with the book drive.
In his 20 mintues he mad a mockery of your whole effort to his sizeable audience, and the show is replayed throught the day, with highlights played over the weekend.
You should contact the show and see if they will have you or Kirk on. if it's a good appearance it they could even make a Howard TV episode about it.
I would agree that according to your mythology Mr. Stern like everyone else is not a good person. You are very clear on that. However that is really only applicable to those who accept your mythology. Other people have different standards of what a good person is. I do not know the man and could not say whether I consider him a good person or not. He would not need to consider my opinion in either case.
Since the precepts of your religion only apply to those who accept them as valid the only statement you can credibly make in that regard is that no Christian is a good person.
Ray,
Do you consider yourself to be a good person? Have you ever lied? Have you ever tried to pass-off other's words and research as our own? Have you ever lifted a timeline word for word from another website to pad a fifty page introduction to a book you are selling, but did not write? Did you know that plagiarism is a form of lying? As we both know God doesn't like liars. I believe the punishment for lying is much the same as the punishment for raping and killing and that is to be thrown in a lake of fire for all time. Are you willing to admit that a large portion of your 50 page introduction is plagiarized, before it is too late? Or does lying not count when you do it?
Imagine that -- Ray Comfort behaving like a Christian with morals. Now that would be a real shock.
Ray Comfort said:
I subjected myself to about 20 minutes of listening to Howard Stern ....
That's way more than I've ever done; I commend you for the pains you're willing to go through to research a topic. Or I would, if you'd go to such pains to understand topics (e.g. evolutionary theory, or paleontology, geology, cosmology, etc.) to which you devote so much commentary and so little actual thought.
I was really shocked to hear how professionally uninformed he was.
I like that phrase. "Professionally uninformed." You should have it printed on your business cards.
After all, the most striking thing about your introduction to On the Origin of Species is the sheer amount you've never bothered to find out about the theory of evolution (followed, of course, by the sheer volume of things you've never bothered to find out about Darwin's actual writings, despite writing an introduction to one of his books).
I'm no Stern fan, we don't really get him in the UK but what were you expecting Ray?
He's going his job you idiot! He's an entertainer, his job is to make people laugh (I'm not one of them, I prefer Eddie Izzard, who's going to hell for being a transvestite, so what can you do?). He can afford to get details wrong. I've heard countless comedians get information wrong. A prize example was Dane Cook's bit on atheists, either misinformed, stupid or just going it for your comedy dollar.
You on the other hand Ray, can't afford to get details wrong because... hang on, what do you do for a job? You're serious about attacking science, reality and rationality so it's only fair you do your homework, which you refuse to do.
You are quite funny Ray, albeit unintentionally. Dawkins had you pegged comparing you to a Monty Python sketch.
Don't discount Howard Stern just because he has a foul mouth. Like Opera, he created a media market around himself, and that takes a lot of talent and intelligence.
From what I understand, Howard Stern is actually a skilled chess player.
Thanks for keeping us posted, Ray!
"I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't think there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and parading around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face white and praying to a rock." - Howard Stern
:)
That "we are only beggars, telling other beggars where to find bread" may be a well-worn saying; but I believe it is true. If God can save the likes of you and me, Ray, there is hope for Howard Stern.
Craig B
Howard Stern talks about Darwin's Birthday
H: Isn't it funny how people, you know, they call Darwin a genius and stuff, that nobody figured out that we come from monkeys? I mean, we look like monkeys. I mean, it doesn't seem like that big a deal that he figured that out, but yet it is a big deal.
R: People are still arguing the point!
H: Yeah, and you still got these religious nuts that think we, you know, didn't come from monkeys. You know, they refuse to accept science.
[SM: Most mainstream religious groups accept the reality of evolution.]
H: They actually have skulls where we evolved from monkeys.
R: Well, even if we didn't evolve from monkeys, if God made everything, he kept basing everything on the same model. And so the model was a monkey.
H: We certainly didn't come from fish, we don't look like fish.
R: Yeah, well, they say everything started in the sea, though. I don't know how that all worked out.
H: I think Darwin just saw the obvious. I don't know, I think if I had lived during those days I would have invented the theory of evolution. I would have looked at, like, Gary [SM: Stern show producer Gary Dell'Abate, famous for his large teeth and heavy brow], and said, you know, you look like a monkey.
R: I think we come from monkeys after looking at you!
H: That's right.
R: That's not nice.
H: It's not nice, but it's true. I could have come up with, I would have been the father, it would have been Howardism, not Darwinism.
R: And you wouldn't have given it such a nice name as On the Origin of the Species.
H: Howardism.
Kirk Cameron's birthday counts as American History?
Ray said, "In a mere 20 minutes he managed to mess up American history twice, on Kirk Cameron’s age... Mr. Stern had no idea that Kirk’s last movie was a box office smash..."
I don't think Kirk Cameron's age or career qualifies as American History.
@ Ray Comfort
"Of course, Howard isn't a good person; he’s just like the rest of us. His dirty mouth revealed his dirty heart."
Or maybe he's just honest?
Ray have you taken Mikkala's "are you a bad person test" yet?
You should if you haven't. It's basically just a test to demonstrate how you can't possibly be the bad person you say, or think, that you are.
In a mere 20 minutes he managed to mess up American history twice, on Kirk Cameron’s age (he kept calling him a "kid," when Kirk has six kids himself, and is nearly 40 years old). Mr. Stern had no idea that Kirk’s last movie was a box office smash, bringing in more than 34 million dollars...
Since when is Kirk Cameron's age and acting career American history?
Outside of the Christian community Fireproof drew little attention so you really can't blame Howard for not knowing Kirk had a starring role in that movie.
I have heard Howard Stern before, while flipping through Sirius radio.
At one time, he was a happily married man, and bragged about such. One day he decided it was over with his wife, and started dating the various guests on his program.
He must have had some bad encounters with Christians, due to his extreme distaste in the Gospel.
He is a professing Jew, and believes he will be just fine after he dies, because he is part of "God's chosen people".
His producer is Catholic, one of his fellow "talents" is an alcoholic, and the other has a drug and alcohol addiction.
I think if you got in contact with his producer, he would have you on in a heart beat. What a way to introduce the Gospel to all of the lost people listening to his program.
Ray, Howard Stearn will not become a "Real Christian" like you for the same reason that you keep misrepresenting science and atheistic positions, there is money in it.
So quit being so suprised.
You know what would be a real shocker, Ray? Perhaps if you answered peoples' questions without equivocating or prevaricating.
Perhaps if you didn't make ad hominem attacks to people who don't share your narrow view of the world.
Perhaps if you'd drop your charade and tell atheists that you have nothing but utter disdain for them.
Perhaps if you'd stop belittling your own fellow Christians.
All of that would just shock shock the world.
I listened to part one of the broadcast and I feel sorry for Howard Stern and his supporters.
I think we should echo the words of Jesus as he was being crucified "Father forgive then for they know not what they do." Luke 23:24
But Kirk, be encouraged and rejoice for Jesus said:
"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile you and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets before you." Matthew 5:10-12
God Bless.
Neil.
I try to always remember Richard Dawkins, and Bill Mahr in my prayers. I just imagine how powerful it would be for them to come to the knowledge of Jesus. Looks like I'll be adding Mr Stern
Ray Comfort...
I believe when Howard refers to him as a kid it's in the sense that Cameron thinks as a child; which I firmly believe. Also, 34 million isn't a box office smash. I know he's your friend, but that constitutes a blatant lie, which contradicts your Bible once again. Ray, if you stacked all of your lies on top of eachother would they let you reach heaven?
Your book giveaway is much ado about nothing. Darwin's 1859 Origin of Species is in many ways now obsolete, and your introduction is just rehashed and long-debunked creationist pamphlet material.
It's like if you were to give out copies of Antoine-Laurent de Lavoisier's 220 year old treaty on chemistry. Although groundbreaking at the time, it contains many things that we now know to be plain wrong. Just get a modern chemistry textbook if you want to learn about chemistry.
And just get a modern biology textbook if you want to learn about evolution.
Christians tend to project the way they view the world unto the behavior of others. People like Ray like to stand on street corners holding a Bible and just talk for hours to no one in particular. OK. But you never see scientists clutching Darwin's book like a holy fetish while feverishly expounding on evolution.
Darwin's book is not the "anti-Bible" you make it out to be.
"Wow! I was really shocked to hear how professionally uninformed he was."
No irony there.
Anyway, Howard Stern just says outrageous things to get a reaction out of people. Good thing you're not like that, eh, Ray?
Did you consider the other messages his words were saying or did you just focus on the profanity? What about the fact that Kirk is being blatantly dishonest in the first part of his origins in schools video? What about the point he made about leaving religion out of school to protect all religions? You don't want Satanism taught in schools after all.
Yes, Howard Stern's radio character is a pig. He'll readily admit that I'm sure, but did you understand his points?
That would be spectacular wouldn't it. If Howard Stern became a Christian. Of course, it would be spectacular if ANY non believer became a Christian. But Howard Stern... that would be surprising.
Wasn't there something in the bible about removing the beam in your own eye before you worry about the splinter in your brother's? I think you've got enough problems with historical accuracy on your own to deal with.
p.s. Glad you finally admitted you have a "dirty heart."
"Imagine that--Howard Stern a Christian! Now that would be a real shock."
Would it really?
If lying, malicious, snake-oil selling cheap propagandists can be Christians, then why not someone who uses swear words??
Ray: "Add to that, that he surmised that he was a good person, despite the fact that his vocabulary came directly from the walls of a public restroom."
Ray, can you show us in the Bible where swearing (aside from the obvious taking of The Lord's name in vain) is condemned? Or even mentioned?
Sincere question; I'm genuinely curious.
Thanks.
'Howard Stern, the Shock Jock'
The Shock Jock needs to take the "good person" test!
Right Ray? He may think he is a 'good person', but Not in the sight of Almighty GOD.
In His Love,
Terry Burton
Readers, take the Quick Quiz at the GoodPersonTEST website. :)
Howard Stern is the man. I'm glad to see he hit a nerve.
Baba Booey!!
By the way, about his language. I've always found dishonesty more offensive than random four letter words, but then that's just me.
WayoftheMasterMinute
Thursday, November 12, 2009
'Imitating Paul'
The eighth and ninth of the Ten Commandments forbid lying and stealing.
Do you ever ask sinners if they have lied or stolen? Paul used the Commandments in Romans chapter two, and he told us to imitate him.
When we do that, it shows sinners that they have fallen short of God's standard.
The Moral Law reveals that we have sinned against a God who sees every deed and word, and will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing.
The Law of God brings the knowledge of sin. It calls for our blood, and demands our death and damnation.
When a sinful world understands that, they are ready for the Good News that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us.
The Law makes the cross make sense. That's why Jesus used it. That's why Paul used it. Do the same.
There goes another minute.
Gone forever. Go share your faith while you still have time.
Wow Ray, why so caustic? Howard Stern is a nationally syndicated radio show. I thought the mere mention of your project on his show would have you writhing in rapturous delight. Ostensibly that was the whole idea behind this little endeavor no? I mean your persecution cup runneth over. Or were you not mentioned at all? Was it only Kirk? I didn't listen to the broadcast or anything.
As to your diatribe about Howard calling Kirk a "kid", personally speaking as someone who is 40, I would love to be referred to as a "kid". And I doubt very few people on the street know or care how old Kirk Cameron is. He hasn't had any mainstream relevance is decades, and that's a "historical" fact.
He's Jewish, you moron!
At the risk of stating the obvious, copulation resulting in the birth of a child does not make a man let alone a father.
Ray, you and Howard have a lot in common. You are both public figures whose income depends on the amount of exposure they get. You have simply chosen a different demographic based on your talents. Your success depends on the continued misrepresentation of non-believers and science, so that is precisely what you do and will continue to do. Howard’s success depends on his ability to keep a radio audience based on his liberal sensationalism, so that is what he does and will continue to do. Howard knows that if he toned down his language or subject matter his ratings would slip. You know that if you presented a accurate representation of science and non-believers your book sales would plummet. As someone said, “We are all prostitutes… it’s just a matter of price.”
Would it be possible for you to do something other than criticize people over their beliefs, like maybe provide support for your own beliefs? You still haven't talked about the support for creationism.
All the atheists here seem to do is post information on evolution. Whether you think we're wrong is irrelevent. We brought our homework to class, you either left your's at home or didn't do it at all so why should we care what you have to say when all you do is criticize the people who are informed? You won't get a better grade in science class by criticizing the students who actually study for their tests by calling them "bad people."
If there is any support for creationism other than the Bible then why aren't you showing it to us? Do you want us to burn in Hell?
To the atheists on this site:
I have greatly appreciated your taking the time to post your comments, questions and challenges to Ray, me, and other believers. I recognize that it takes a lot of time to continue with multiple posts/conversations and thank you for engaging in the discussion.
An interesting point was made recently stating that atheists are not as unified/organized in their identity. I found this a very astute observation. Atheists, though many, seem to have several different reasons as to why they hold to atheism.
I am wondering if any atheists would mind submitting an answer to the question, “What is the main reason why you reject Christianity?”
For instance, some might feel that the idea of a deity is not rational. Others have expressed that any God who allows suffering or would punish people in Hell is the breaking point. I know that some cannot find enough support for the Bible, which is the primary source for Christians regarding God. Others might just have some questions that they have never received satisfactory answers for. For some of you, I suspect that your answer will be, “the postings by Christians on this site is all the evidence I need to reject Christianity.” I am especially interested in those who identify themselves as being at one time a Christian and who have now left the faith. I would ask that anyone who participates be thoughtful about their responses. i.e. please don’t just write, “’Cause it’s stupid.” If that’s the case for you, please take the time to spell out what you find stupid about it. As much detail as you would like to include is most welcome and helpful.
If your reasons for rejecting Christianity are too personal for you to share on a public blog, (I recognize that religion has done much to hurt people) I would ask you to consider emailing them to me at the email address on my profile. I promise that I will only reply back with thanks, not with argument or opposition.
Let me be clear. There is no trick here. I am not going to post individuals’ replies and then try to shoot them down. I hope that in my past writings I have convinced many of you to take me at my word. I am in no way affiliated with Ray, or his ministry. Perhaps, Ray would consider using one of his daily posts as a place for you to reply. If so, I would ask that there be NO Christian remarks, responses or rebuttals allowed. I myself am not interested in criticizing anyone’s view, but I do seek to challenge people’s ideas, just as I have had my own ideas challenged on this site. Consider this a statistical gathering of what keeps atheists, atheistic. I believe this would help Christians who want to engage in the discussion with atheists (on this site, and elsewhere) a better understanding of who they are dealing with. You are right, it is frustrating to hear an evangelist harp on sin or hell to a group that would have to be convinced of a God first.
Thank you in advance for any participation.
- Chaplain Entrekin
Might have been the most worthless blog post ever.
Wow, Ray, you've done something that I haven't been able to do. You listed to more than a minute of Howard Stern. For me, by the time one minute is over, my ears are bleeding from all the filth that comes out of his mouth.
See - now you've got a taste of how awful we find listening to you or Kirk whitter on, and also why we do... a mix or morbid fascination and the desire to keep an eye on you so you don't get to pronounce on issues without being constantly critiqued.
Ray: "In a mere 20 minutes he managed to mess up American history twice etc"
Perhaps now Ray you can appreciate what many of us here feel when you repeatedly get your facts wrong about evolution (and refuse to be corrected).
Frustrating isn't it?!?
What's that little story in the Bible - something about splinters and planks? Seems rather appropriate here.
"I was really shocked to hear how professionally uninformed he was."
Oh, Ray. Why is it that the very blackest of pots can never quite see the humour in them pointing out the colour of kettles?
Oh, and, "His dirty mouth revealed his dirty heart." Seriously? Channelling the spirit of a concerned spinster in 1954 now, are we?
"Gretchen said...He's Jewish, you moron!"
Gretchen...so am I. God bless you.
Ray,
A central tenet of the religion of Judaism is the belief in a future messianic age that will be brought about by the Mosiach. If you believe Jesus was the messiah, you may be ethnically Jewish, but that is NOT your religion.
Stern? WOW!!
"Imagine that - Howard Stern a Christian! Now that would be a real shock."
Not really. A lowest-common-denomonator sophist with a modicum of charisma who makes millions of dollars preaching to a vast audience of gullible, idiotic prols.
Stern could turn Christian evangalist with a click of the fingers.
"Michael said...
'Imagine that - Howard Stern a Christian! Now that would be a real shock.'
Not really. A lowest-common-denomonator sophist with a modicum of charisma who makes millions of dollars preaching to a vast audience of gullible, idiotic prols.
Stern could turn Christian evangalist with a click of the fingers."
Michael...anyone can play the hypocrite (be a pretender). I was talking about becoming a Christian.
I didn't even know Stern was still alive since he went to Satellite and couldn't get in fights with the FCC.
Jonathan: "I am wondering if any atheists would mind submitting an answer to the question, “What is the main reason why you reject Christianity?”
I cannot speak for others here, but for me there are multiple reasons why I am no longer a Christian (I was "born again" for 15 years). There is not just one cause but there are multiple lines of evidence (just as there are with evolution) that together make up compelling reasons not to believe:
1) There is a lack of reliable historical corroboration for the events in the Bible. Nobody wrote down anything about Jesus for 30 years after he was supposedly executed. It doesn't rule out that Jesus may have been a real person, but if Jesus truly "shook up the world" the lack of any external corroboration is suspicious.
2) There is evidence to suggest that the Bible is a man-made document as it contains contradictions, inconsistencies, clear myth-making and other fabrications that are congruent with the musings and writings of ancient peoples. Similarly there is evidence to suggest that the "canon" we have today was culled from many other writings to serve a particular (political) viewpoint.
3) It is hard to reconcile a loving caring God whose desire is to "save" mankind with the tribal, heinous and vicious acts portrayed in the OT (that today we would label as genocide).
4) I see no evidence of God working in the world today or through His church. Where are the signs and wonders? (sorry, Benny Hinn doesn't count...)
4) I see no true life-changing evidence of God working in individuals lives - other than what one would be expected psychologically through adopting religious views or going through some "conversion" experience. There is no reason to believe Christians "changed life" experiences are qualitative different from those of other religions or cults. My own anecdotal experiences as a former Christian of 15 years (and knowing literally hundreds of Christians) is that God was surprisingly absent in the day-to-day workings of their lives. Many seem to struggle with life more than non-Christians. That isn't to say the precepts of Christianity aren't useful, but no more so than other philosophies. In terms of true help in life, many of my fellow Christians found more solace in secular therapies and philosophies than directly through their faith. Same with prayer - Christians are good at reporting the hits, but ignore the millions of misses where prayers go unanswered and ignored. Most Christians don't want to admit to this of course and usually they are so indoctrinated by a certain point they are unable to realize it.
@jonathan
you asked
I am wondering if any atheists would mind submitting an answer to the question, “What is the main reason why you reject Christianity?”
Do you realize that this is a different question than "Why don't you believe in something supernatural?"
But to your question: I reject Christianity because I simply can't believe in miracles.
I'm ready to admit that there are some good ideas in the Bible (more in the NT than the OT, though), but they are not necessarily of divine origin. The Greeks for example had most of those ideas, too.
Could God be real if the miracles in the Bible were made up by the men who wrote that book?
@ Ryan, you said "I don't think Kirk Cameron's age or career qualifies as American History."
Ryan,
Read the sentence carefully, he is talking about two separate things!
This is a prime example of what corrupt thinking
( there is no GOD ) will do with your brain cells.
Try looking at the big picture, and carefully read the post.
God Bless!
In His Love,
Terry Burton
to CHRIS B
"Ray, can you show us in the Bible where swearing (aside from the obvious taking of The Lord's name in vain) is condemned? Or even mentioned?"
just in case ray doesn't get around to it.
Ephesians 5:3-7
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. NOR SHOULD THERE BE OBSCENITY, FOOLISH TALK OR COARSE JOKING, which are out of
place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
Jonathan,
How do you mean unified? We're a diverse group of people, of all ages, with different opinions and philosophies who happen not to believe in gods. Some atheists are humanists. Others may identify themselves as cynics. I've met many atheists who are vegans and just as many who are carnivores. Where as Christianity despises it when members have differences of opinion, as atheists we don't really make a big deal about it. Sure, we may get into heated debates on some issues, but isn't it normal for human beings to disagree? We're not very defined but we're always open to new ideas.
Why am I not a Christian? Hmm, I know I've talked about this recently but I can't remember when. I could say that it had something to do with the realization that religion can be very, very bad for people in positions of power but even then I was an agnostic. The truth is I'm not sure I ever really was a Christian anymore. I thought I believed in God but now that I've met you guys and heard stories of faith from ex-theists I'm starting to think I was probably agnostic my whole life. My parents never forced religion on me. I now know that my father is an atheist though he later became Christian through re-marriage. He was a pessimistic atheist from what my mother told me, which is not the way that I operate. My mother is Christian but she's not into organized religion - she's spiritual. That's sort of the way that I was raised.
I never felt unhappy as an agnostic. Well, I did feel unhappy, but I knew at the time that my unhappiness came from being lonely and not doing as well in school as I would have liked. There were probably other factors as well but my problems have always been very rooted in the real world. There were times when I wondered why God would allow me to feel so unhappy, but the being in my mind was not really the God you believe in, just an abstract idea of god, any god. That in my early teenage years I felt no sense of apprehension or rebellion while contemplating becoming a wiccan shows how little my faith. I can’t even remember why I thought of becoming wiccan. I wasn’t searching for answers. I think I was just bored.
On one hand the reason I’m not Christian is the same reason I’m not Buddhist or Hindu. I wasn’t raised that way. Since becoming an atheist and learning about the arguments for and against God (the Christian God and other deities), the main reason I’m not Christian is now because Christianity doesn’t make sense to me. To be more specific, the reason I’m not a Conservative/Fundamentalist Christian is that I don’t agree with any of your politics, I believe that your brand of Christianity advocates immorality, disinformation and ignorance and it’s obvious to me, someone who has only taken a few classes in general biology, that the majority of creationists don’t even know what they’re against.
Why don’t I believe in God, you may ask. Oh, you may ask it, but eh… I just don’t. I could say a lot more on that subject but I’d rather let you browse the atheist comments on this blog and see for yourself why I don’t believe in God.
Liz said, "I mean your persecution cup runneth over. Or were you not mentioned at all? Was it only Kirk? I didn't listen to the broadcast or anything."
Ray was not mentioned at all. Howard said, "Kirk gets great comfort" in reference to why he believes, but I hope he wasn't referring to Ray.
@ Wait What,
you said "Just think Ray Howard has 20 Million listeners,"
Who in the world is Ray Howard?
Are you referring to Howard Stern?
atheists, please pay attention to the post, and read it carefully.
Your 'knee jerk' replies are unappreciated.
Think carefully about where you will spend eternity. Your immortal souls are at stake.
Please take a moment to carefully read over the questions at NeedGOD website. It could save you alot of pain.
Your attention is appreciated.
God Bless!
In His Love,
Terry Burton
Brother Terry (Who remains devoutly not Terrence),
Good to see you regurgitating Way of the Master drivel in support of our Holy Lord again.
Anyhow, to the purpose of my post:
I know I have been critical of your Biblical exegesis in the past (I hope you haven’t put any more homosexuals to death this week) but I respect your rigorous critique of the mental ‘religion’ of evilution which shows the detailed seconds of study you might possibly have thought about doing, if you could only think.
As a result, I would like your advice on a question regarding the sacred word of our mighty, if confused, God.
Where, Terry (Who remains devoutly not Terrence), in our Lord’s book does it tell us that we may not swear? Furthermore, where in his mighty word does it tell us which words (translated from Hebrew) are swear words?
I hope you can tell me because one thing I do know is that man cannot define the words that displease or Lord so much - or understand why wiping out the entire human race in a flood is not offensive but a couple of the many words that refer to sexual intercourse are!
As Ray has taught us we are unable to define our own morality so only God can have told us which words are swear words – I’d be ever so jolly grateful if you could tell me where in the bible it tells us as I get confused as to which words for penis he finds offensive and which he doesn’t.
Keep taking the pills my beloved Terry (Who remains devoutly not Terrence),
Phil
Jonathan said...
“What is the main reason why you reject Christianity?”
1. The Bible
2. Magic not being real
3. I have never met a real Christian, just alot of people claiming to be one.
4. Jesus in Islam
5. Jesus in the book of Mormon
6. Bahai view of Jesus
7. Mandaeanism view of Jesus
This is a start...
I only know of Howard Stern from a recent news report on Australian Media. The bottom line is that he is giving the book some free publicity. If only small portion of his listeners take an interest and get a copy it could be a changing point in their lives.
I only know of Howard Stern from a recent new report on him on Australian TV. I guess the bottom line is that he is giving the book free publicity. If only a small portion of his listeners take an interest and get a copy it could be the turning point in alot of peoples lives.
Jonathan asked, “What is the main reason why you reject Christianity?”
There are a number of reasons I am an Atheist.
1) Frankly when I was a kid I was dragged to church and it was a huge inconvenience. Later when I grew up a little I realized that one can get good information in many forms as long as one checks claims before accepting them. I started reading the Bible my father gave me and took a Bible as literature class. I found it very interesting but not at all convincing. At that time I labeled myself an agnostic because I didn’t know whether there was a god or not but was completely fine if others wanted to believe. Now that I’ve lived longer and experienced more of life, I have taken a firmer stance and hold the opinion that the God of the Bible cannot be true. There may be a God out there but I’m convinced that none of the popular religions have it right, but I have seen no evidence that “God” is real and therefore do not concern myself with the question generally. I do enjoy fighting with Christians who want to push their agendas on everyone else however, but I quite like my Christian brother who does not push his views on others.
2) I cannot imagine a God that would need our worship so much that he would choose to provide information to one person, saving them from hell yet would completely ignore another and allow them to go to Hell. Fundamentalist Christians often say that we know God and simply choose to reject him but why would anyone do that? We’re not stupid. Choice 1: Everlasting life with someone who loves you. Choice 2: Everlasting torment in hell. EVERYONE would choose choice 1 if they knew that it was a real choice. The problem is that there are many other choices. Alternative choice: God isn’t real and the only thing that matters is being good to others and helping them through life because this is the only life we get.
3) On a more personal note, my theist mother died of ALS and I took care of her the entire time she was sick. I brushed her teeth, helped her eat, and helped her use the toilet (lifting her onto the toilet, wiping her bottom, and lifting her back off. ALS is one of those diseases that leaves the mind alone, so she was embarrassed the whole time desperately incapable of doing anything about it. She asked my father to kill her twice because of the horror of that disease. I was happy to do it and told her I loved her every day she was sick. I cannot believe in a loving God that can and has intervened but chooses to not for a case where someone is dying horribly.
"Michael...anyone can play the hypocrite (be a pretender). I was talking about becoming a Christian."
Don't take my comment personally, Ray. For what it's worth, I do not think YOU are a 'pretender'.
I'm not so convinced about many of your compatriots.
Ah yes, the old 'he cussed so he mustn't have anything useful to say' fallacy.
Intelligent people can cut through the rhetoric, because it's there in literally every opinion that everyone has ever uttered about anything, ever. Intelligent people can recognise it and put it aside and focus on the actual points of discussion.
Just saying...
By the way, Mr. Comfort, what exactly would be the difference between someone who pretends to believe and someone who actually believes, and how could you tell the difference, and what difference would it make?
OutlawGirl said:
"We brought our homework to class, you either left your's at home or didn't do it at all so why should we care what you have to say when all you do is criticize the people who are informed?"
OutlawGirl - maybe the God ate Ray's homework.
Jonathan: "I am wondering if any atheists would mind submitting an answer to the question, “What is the main reason why you reject Christianity?”
I was raised fundamental/evangelical, went to private school, read the Bible cover to cover dozens of times growing up, and went to church 3x/week for about 18 years - I can still quote many, many Bible verses, which I had to memorize as a kid. For nearly 20 years I prayed to God that He would reveal Himself to me, I searched and never found, despite wanting to find.
Briefly, VERY briefly:
The MAIN reason I am not a Christian is because the Bible and its interventionist God cannot be true - too many inconsistencies, impossibilities, its non-divine canonization, and its irreconcilable differences with reality; alternative explanations, supported by data and evidence, are more correct and likely - the Bible is copied mythology authored by humans, there is no evidence for the Genesis account which is refuted by scientific research, and the Bible/religion are human vehicles for socio-political control, which accounts for its persistence.
I am now a secular humanist-agnostic and a practicing research scientist investigating the phenomenons of Nature by asking questions and using controlled experiments of methodological naturalism to answer those questions; I have found no definitive evidence for God and therefore place precious human life and consciousness as the ultimate authority and value yet to be uncovered in our universe.
The Bible never made sense to me as a kid and it still does not - though I continue to read it occasionally.
Alan Myers said...
"I try to always remember Richard Dawkins, and Bill Mahr in my prayers. I just imagine how powerful it would be for them to come to the knowledge of Jesus. Looks like I'll be adding Mr Stern."
Stop wasting your time. Pray instead for God to show himself at the Superbowl, resurrect Elvis Presley for the halftime entertainment and make it rain lobsters at the final whistle.
Now THAT would have an impact on many atheists.
Steven J. said...
"...to which you devote so much commentary and so little actual thought."
Dear Steven,
You're the believer in the mother of all lies, the theory of evolution. So other than devoting one's imagination to it, are you suggesting it's possible to devote genuine "thought" to a lie?
Steven said,
"I like that phrase. "Professionally uninformed.""
Dear Steven,
Speaking of professional, what is your profession? Just curious.
Romans 1
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie...
Ryk said...
"...according to your mythology..."
Dear Ryk,
Speaking of mythology...
Article: Whatever Happened to Zinjanthropus? (New Scientist Journal)
"The entire hominid collection known today would barely cover a billiard table, but it has spawned a science because it is distinguished by two factors which inflate its apparent relevance far beyond its merits."
"First, the fossils hint at the ancestry of a supremely self-important animal - ourselves. Secondly, the collection is so tantalizingly incomplete, and the specimens themselves often so fragmentary and inconclusive, that more can be said about what is missing than about what is present. Hence, the amazing quantity of literature on the subject."
"Very few fossils indeed afford just one, incontrovertible interpretation of their evolutionary significance. Most are capable of supporting SEVERAL INTERPRETATIONS."
"Different authorities are free to stress different features with equal validity, often placing remarkable emphasis on the form they propose for the bits that are missing."
"Points distinguishing the various interpretations may be so slight or unclear that each depends as much upon the proponent's PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS as upon the evidence of the fossils."
"Furthermore, since the meagre collection has accumulated so slowly, the long gaps between discoveries have provided ample time for investigators to FORM VERY DEFINITE NOTIONS of what OUGHT to be found next. Zinjanthropus boisei is a good example of this phenomenon, but ever since Darwin's work inspired the NOTION that fossils linking modern man and extinct ancestor would provide the most convincing proof of human evolution, PRECONCEPTIONS HAVE LED EVIDENCE BY THE NOSE IN THE STUDY OF FOSSIL MAN."
"Yet although the fossil evidence was limited, THEORY ABOUNDED , so when the dutch anatomist Eugene Dubois went hunting hominids in Java in the late 1880's he found exactly what he was looking for - fossils representing HIS CONCEPTION of an extinct apeman, Pithecanthropus erectus, alias Java man. Regrettably, though, Dubois' evidence was VERY SLIM TOO, and itself open to a variety of interpretations. On balance, Java man hardened existing BELIEFS much more than it introduced new understanding. And by the late 1890s those BELIEFS - though various - WERE FIRMLY HELD."
"In 1953 Piltdown man was shown to be a fake, but for nearly 20 YEARS the specimen was a crucial piece of paleoanthropological evidence against which every other fossil had to be compared; and the three gentlemen most responsible for promoting it to that exalted status - Woodward, Arthur Keith, And Grafton Elliot-Smith-were SUBSEQUENTLY KNIGHTED for their contributions to science."
"And PREDICTABLY ENOUGH perhaps, 1470 (fossil skull) was presented to the public as the world's oldest man and brought its promoter a TASTE OF FAME."
"Both Leakey and Johanson have unhesitatingly used their discoveries to PUBLICISE their opposing schemes of human evolution; and now their confrontation seems set to become an undignified public scrap...both cannot be right, both may well be wrong...so perhaps the heat rising from their argument BETRAYS THE INADEQUACY OF THEIR EVIDENCE...We already know that the fuss attached to some (claims by paleoanthropologists) revealed more about human nature than about human origins; eventually we will know the truth about them all."
Comment: If you want to be "knighted" and get your "taste of fame", become a professional evolutionist, find an old ape bone and call it a human ancestor, and viola! Who says mythology isn't profitable?
Romans 1
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie...(mythology)
Jonathon -
"I am wondering if any atheists would mind submitting an answer to the question, “What is the main reason why you reject Christianity?”
As pointed out by a previous poster, there are so many reasons it is difficult to single out a main one.
I can tell you the very first thing that started troubling me as a child in Sunday school and, to this day, forms one of my biggest objections to Christianity:
Why should you be right and all other religions wrong?
How do you reconcile this when, if you were born in Quatar or Mumbia, you would hold a very different set of beliefs.
Either you're all wrong or all but one of you is wrong. Yet you ALL think you're right.
That poses probably my main problem.
Related to this are the composite origins of Christianity. I cannot see how these cannot trouble a Christian.
Many of the Old Testament laws, in particular the "eye for an eye" law were taken from the Sumerian Code of Hammurabi (1750 BC). The "eye for an eye" law was lifted word for word from Hammurabi's Code.
The crucifixion theme, which forms the very core of Christianity, is yet another object that is non-Christian in origin. Archeological evidence from Greece identifies the crucified figure as the Greek god-man Orpheus-Dionysus, who rose from the dead in that culture's mythology.
The concept of an afterlife and resurrection were derived from the Egyptian cult of Osiris, which was the first resurrection based religion in the world. The belief in an afterlife and resurrection formed the basis of the Egyptian practice of mummification.
Angels are another theme that Christianity stole from earlier religions. There is a statue from circa 100 BC which shows the Goddess of Love, Aphrodite, warding off an advance by the goat-footed Pan - while an angel hovers over her shoulder.
But the main body of Christian belief is in fact not originally Christian at all, and a surprisingly large part of it was drawn from the Persian cult of Mithras.
The similarities between this pre-Christian religion and Christianity itself are too obvious to ignore:
- Mithras was born of a virgin given the title 'Mother of God'”;
- The Mithraic cult believed in a celestial heaven and a hell;
- The Mithraic cult taught that its followers would have immortality and eternal salvation;
- The Mithraic cult taught that there would be a final day of judgment in which the dead would resurrect, and a final conflict between good and evil that would destroy the existing order;
- The Mithraic cult required its followers to be baptized;
- The Mithraic cult had a ceremony in which followers drank wine and ate bread to symbolize the body and blood of Mithras;
- The Mithraic cult held Sundays as a sacred day;
- The Mithraic cult celebrated the birthday of their god annually on December the 25th;
- The Mithraic cult taught that after their god's earthly mission had been accomplished, he took part in a Last Supper with his companions before ascending to heaven, to forever protect the faithful from above.
(Sources: Cumont, Franz. Les Mystères de Mithra. Dover Publications, Inc. New York, 1956; Cumont, Franz. The Oriental Religions in Roman Paganism. Dover Publications, Inc. New York, 1956.)
Christianity, it appears, is a rippoff.
Now don't get me started on suffering, God's vanity and barbarism, lack of any evidence, inconsitencies in the Bible...
Andy said,
"Have you ever tried to pass-off other's words and research as our own? Have you ever lifted a timeline word for word from another website..."
Dear Andy,
You do know that evolutionists on this forum do exactly what you said? You sound so familiar with this practice as to have personal experience with it.
Understandably, there have been NO atheists who have tried to pass off the following words as THEIR own - not even with a ten-foot pole, and for obvious reasons...
"It is the plain truth that we are...cousins of bananas and turnips."
Any takers?
Romans 1
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind...
Wait What said...
"Howard has 20 Million listeners.."
Proverbs 30:12
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
'Jonathan/Chaplain Entrekin':
I'm more than happy to answer your question, having called myself a Christian for the first good 15 years of my life. I want you to know that I earnestly wanted to believe. I was raised in a Christian home, attended church, and for a long time blindly accepted the ideas that I was taught. The first major struggle for me came when I was a young child, maybe around 7 or 8. I never felt certain that I was "truly saved" and I ended up asking Jesus numerous times. I had no proof to back up my belief that I was going to heaven, but I still wanted to believe it. I sincerely felt bad when I "sinned" and I begged God for forgiveness multiple times. As I grew older, my concerns grew into agnosticism; I still attended church and professed my belief outwardly. Eventually, I stopped doing that and I sat in the back and didn't speak up. Around 10th grade, I got this notion into my head that "God" would be willing to reveal himself to me, to show me a miracle, or speak to me, and I spent a long time waiting for His response. It never came. And I eventually realized that it wasn't going to arrive because He didn't and doesn't exist; or, at the very least, I have no evidence to suggest that He does and when we're discussing a supposedly deeply-interested-in-my-life deity than that's as good as saying He doesn't exist (or doesn't care, or is powerless to act.) I called myself an agnostic for a couple years before taking on the more truthful title of atheist, despite the negative stigma. I hope this has been clear and concise enough. Are there any other questions you would like to ask? I'm more than happy to go into more detail.
-Joel
Jonathan said:
"I am wondering if any atheists would mind submitting an answer to the question, “What is the main reason why you reject Christianity?”"
Hi Jonathan.
I'm not sure I have a main reason to reject Christianity. Nor do I reject Christianity uniquely, even though it is the major religion in Australia where I live.
I don't really reject God at all, now I think about it. Rather I see no reason to accept the concept. Obviously I have problems with religions such as Ray's that seem to be built on untruths, and which require untruths to be promoted in service of the religion.
In Australia, religious - predominantly Christian - education is permitted in state schools, albeit participation in the class was voluntary (at the discretion of parents, not children...). When I was a primary school student it was considered unconventional not to attend the classes so I attended and was exposed to the type of Christian education that might be received at a Sunday school. This persisted until year 10 of high school in my case, with deeper and more detailed theological and philosophical treatments as we got older. So while I was not raised in a religious home I did receive significant exposure to a range of Christian theology.
I have never had faith in any god in the way that Ray describes. When I was a child of about 8 or 9 I briefly held out a hope that God was real, based on the realisation that my parents were mortal and would die one day. I wished that there would be an afterlife so I wouldn't lose them.
But even then I was troubled as my knowledge of science seemed to contradict the miracles of the Bible. Even at age 9 I realised this and I could not maintain the ability to accept both Biblical miracles and rational science as the ideas seemed contradictory.
The flood and Noah's ark were big problems for me. My realisation at the time was that they could not possibly be literally true.
In my early teens I came to realise that, apart from the Bible, there was little to no positive evidence that objectively validated Christianity and the conflicts between Biblical mythology and science became ever greater. It was probably at around 14 that I began to self-identify as an atheist. Beyond that I gave religion little thought.
In university I met several exceptionally intelligent students who studied science and were Biblical literalists. I had lengthy discussions with them in an attempt to understand how they could reconcile belief in a 6,000 year old Earth and the geology and cosmology we were studying. I got no rational answers. They seemed capable of holding two contradictory ideas in their heads at the same time, something I struggle with.
I concluded then that belief in literalist Christianity was in effect anti-rationalist and could never be reconciled. I've pursued these discussions ever since, still looking for answers but never finding them. The seeming inability to provide rational answers has crystallised my atheism.
By extension, the number of other faiths and even different Christian denominations that claim that they have access to capital-T Truth also causes my problems. From the outside, the faith of believers is essentially the same and yet they cannot all be right. Depth of faith is no guide to Truth.
It is not impossible to convince me that God, Allah, Vishnu etc really exists. All I need is rational evidence. The lack of such evidence any time over the past few thousand years also seems to be telling.
Not a comprehensive answer, obviously I'm trying to distill 3 decades of my own thoughts as well as countless input and opinions from others into 4096 characters!
@Chaplain Entrekin
I appreciate and respect your openness to hearing people's cases for atheism, and I hope you will find my response helpful.
I was raised to believe that God created and ruled the universe, Jesus was his son and our messiah, and I would be evaluated in some way after death to determine where I would spend the rest of eternity. I studied the Bible in Sunday School and never questioned anything contained therein. Having heard the Genesis account of creation many times, I approached the theory of evolution in school with about as much skepticism as I now have for the Bible and other holy texts. However, the theory made a lot of sense, and proved to be far different from what others had told me it was. I knew that the theory directly conflicted with the Genesis account of creation, so I decided to evaluate both as objectively as possible. I found evolution was supported by all the evidence we have, and subsequently rejected the claims of Genesis.
I can understand why Ray spends so much time trying to refute the theory of evolution, because I know from experience that it can be a powerful converter. Once I had come to the realization that the Bible was not 100% true, I stopped taking all its claims at face value and began to evaluate them based on credible evidence. I found nothing which convincingly suggested that Jesus was divine, so I dropped that belief fairly quickly. I maintained a belief in God for awhile, thinking there had to be a first cause, but a few good readings of cosmological theory banished that notion as well. I realized I was an atheist.
My deconversion occurred about four and a half years ago, and since then I have not seen or heard any convincing evidence for the existence of anything supernatural. I suppose you could put me down for rejecting Christianity based on "lack of credible evidence." Of course if I were to receive any such evidence, I would have to reevaluate my beliefs.
I sincerely hope you find this information valuable. It is always nice to see someone who holds different beliefs sincerely interested in others' views. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor.
I listened to a little more than 20 minutes; I'm a mild-mannered female Canadian; and I didn't hear anything bathroom-wall-worthy. Were we listening to the same show?
Howard Stern: Shock Jock
Ray Comfort: Shockingly ignorant and unapologetically dishonest.
Howard Stern: Funny (as in ha-ha)
Ray Comfort: Funny (as in ha-ha listen to all the ridiculous things the banana man says)
I try to always remember Richard Dawkins, and Bill Mahr in my prayers. I just imagine how powerful it would be for them to come to the knowledge of Jesus. Looks like I'll be adding Mr Stern
I'm wondering just what you hope to accomplish by praying for someone. Wouldn't writing them a well thought-out email at least have a hope of getting their attention?
Wishing for something just doesn't cut it.
The Shock Jock needs to take the "good person" test!
Right Ray? He may think he is a 'good person', but Not in the sight of Almighty GOD.
Why don't you call him up and give it to him yourself, BooBoo?
Thank you, KTaylor.
- Chap
I'm new to this place, but I'm reading and learning a lot.
Thanks to ray for the site, although I'm leaning towards the atheist arguments at this point.
@Jonathan: "I am wondering if any atheists would mind submitting an answer to the question, “What is the main reason why you reject Christianity?”
I believe you went on to say something about adherence to atheism as well Jonathan.
Well I speak only for myself in answering your first question, but first I'll address the second bit.
Atheism is not something I adhere to, nor do I identify myself as "atheist". I find people have a very "us and them" mentality in addressing this non subject. My beliefs have nothing to do with, and are not informed by, "atheism". To me atheism is simply not adhereing to a theological view.
But getting on to answering your initial challenge. The reason I reject Christianity.
Well, the main reason I guess, would have to be; I reject Christianity because I reject all religion.
Theology has had it's free lunch for long enough in my view, and I am taking the language back, with which theology has had it's way for way too long. The statements made in holy books are quite literally insensible. There is no definite linguistic formatives that theology seems to require.
We have no Christian mathematics, Muslim chemistry, Hindu biology etc. How then is theology granted such accomodations as a "subject"? These philosophical inconsistencies, are to me, only surmountable if we approach them from a practical perspective.
I reject Christianity the same way Ray rejects Islam and all other "theologies".
My main reasoning behind all of it is really at root, linguitsic, unlike Ray's(theological). We can not make literal sense of the bible, or any holy books. -enter the theologian- As far as literal definition goes, we're lost for words from basically sentence #1 in the bible.
So really, my "atheism" stems from a more introspective examination of language, how we use it, and being respectful of it, with a deeper understanding of it.
The word "God" essentially, is literal white noise to my brain.
"The opposite of the religious fanatic is not the fanatical atheist, but the gentle cynic who doesn't care wheather there is a God or not." ~ Eric Hoffer
I admire Ray's courage in listening to Stern. I have never listened to one minute of his program, and after reading the comments here, I am glad.
Mat 12:36, 37: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
One idle word will condemn you on judgment day, if you have not trusted Jesus Christ as your Savior.
.
This is a response to KTaylor.
God does interact with Christians, you just never knew Him personally. You had a false ‘religion’. I did also at one time so I'm speaking from experience.
I have had several examples in my own life where God intervened. Please bare in mind that I was also an agnostic and a believer in evolution. Here are a few examples
One; he healed my 5th child that was an ectopic pregnancy. One day he was near my wife's ovary and we were looking at a forced abortion and the next day he was in my wife's uterus. Born 9lb, 1 oz perfectly fine. The blood work also fully substantiated an ectopic pregnancy based on the level of hormone, etc.
Two; my son Daniel (kid #4) had crippling leg pain that totally baffled his doctor, to such an extent that he couldn’t walk, off and on for several months. The church prayed for him and the next morning he woke up perfectly fine.
Three; during my life, on four different instances He prevented a serious automobile accident after I had totally lost control of my car and could only pray desperately.
Four; my older brother (not a Christian) was committed after attempting to commit suicide. When this occurred, I took his gun so he wouldn't finish the job when he got out. After he came home and seemed to be getting better, I brought the gun back to him and set it up next to the door of his room. It then promptly fell over and the wooden stock broke in half. It was brand new and solid wood.
Five; God healed my mother's cancer. She was supposed to be dead like 6 years ago. Still kicking.
Six; when I was in college, and an agnostic, my parents asked me to pray for them, I refused and told them I didn't believe in that. I laid down in my bed and then became instantly, violently ill. Fever and vomiting, etc. my mother came in and prayed for me and I was instantly well.
Seven; we have an on-going relationship with a local women's shelter. They asked once if we would throw a pizza party for the women and their kids. We were fairly broke and I wasn't sure it was something that we could do. After work I went out to my car and somebody had put a pizza coupon under the windshield wiper. No one else's car had one, just mine. Further, in the 2 something years that I had worked there, I had NEVER had someone put a pizza coupon on my car. The pizza party went great.
Eight; The first time I went to witness to people (during my lunch break), I had totally failed and was petrified, so I gave up and turned to go back to the office, when I noticed that somebody had written in huge yellow chalk letters a Bible verse on the sidewalk. That got my attention, I stopped and looked up and saw two guys sitting down the street a couple blocks away. I went and witnessed to them and led one of them to Jesus Christ. I would note that I can't recall ever seeing huge chalk-letter Bible verses written on the sidewalk in Tulsa.
God always answers prayer. Either Yes, No, or Later. A true follower of Christ trusts God's judgment. If God says no, he has a good reason. False religious people are only 'Christian' to get something out of the deal. They want God to "bless" them, but they don't really love Him. In truth they only seek their own pleasure. We desire to serve God because we love Him.
God saves, but he requires truth. He isn't going to show you things when you hate Him and are proud. Jesus saves; I have seen it again and again. I have seen hardened felons in prison break down in tears. I have seen cold hearted street-people do the same.
You can sit back and scream out curses and hate towards the likes of Ray and Kirk, but Christ is coming back whether you like it or not. Your opportunity to get off the sinking boat is now. A time is coming when it will be too late. Ray doesn't have this blog to win an argument. He believes that you are spurning eternal life for temporary pleasures?
And what has Kirk ever done? He's a family man, committed husband and father.
Keep the faith Ray and Kirk
More from Terry as his last post was far too brief...
Salutations Ray!!! Evil on the Airways!
Greetings!
In the name of Jesus Christ. Call me 'old' fashion with my INTRO. I believe FIRMLY in BAGGING the sinners and BIGGING UP people in Our ONE Human Family.
Even if its a Brother or Sister or Brother Who Looks Like a Sister like Hward Stern. He's lucky he's Chosen by Our Savior Jesus Christ.
Still, he'll have his flesh melt in the Molten Lake for Infinity if he chooses to ignore his loving Lord! Praise!
Still, LOVE the person, NOT the Sin.
LOVE comes first, then we try our Best with God's Power/Wisdom to help SAVE that SOUL. Pray for that person. They may never come back again to the Blog. The person passes away. Lost for eternity. In Hell. Our Lord is Just and Loving!
Too many times I heard this when I growed up. "I like that radio programme, TV show" when really it's the Devil in the "idiot box"
How quickly we forget the 'Great Commission'.
Go Unto ALL the World! Mix My Words With That Of What I Know Won't Harm Thee Until It's Too Late! Forget the Flatterers! ALL Christians. Single. Praise!
Just Preacher Evangelist Don't Take Million Dollar tracs. PEOPLE LOVE! I was shy, I understand. :)
In HIS LOVE, Terry
I'm a long time Stern listener (10+ years) and I'm begging you Ray...seriously...begging...please go on his show. Seriously...I'm not joking. Please go on his show. You and Kirk both. Call them up and ask to come on...please! I have a feeling they may already be trying to contact you...Howard did say "We need to have this guy on" (meaning Kirk)...if so, please say yes!
I guarantee he would have you both on there without a second thought. He'd give you at least 20 minutes and maybe an hour or more to spread your message. He'll even take calls and let you talk directly to his audience. What better way to spread your message?
Depending on how well you do on his show and how well the audience reacts towards you, you might even get your own 1 hour special on his channel. He's done this for a few of his guests. For instance, Erik the Actor has had a few of these.
Depending on how good your 1 hour special does Howard might even give you your own 1 hour show once a week on his channel. Riley Martin has had a 1 hour show once a week for several years now. Riley even gets to broadcast the show from his residence. You would probably have the same deal allowing you to broadcast from home.
Ray, I hope you are giving this serious consideration. Think about it. This could be HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE. Sirius has millions...millions Ray...of listeners. A sizable portion of those listeners listen to Stern.
Do it Ray. Do it for the listeners. I'm begging you.
Mr. Comfort I do hope you and your family are doing well, if I may respectfully ask a question. Can a truly saved Christian believe in evolution? If not then does that mean we need to believe in a literal flood, Young Earth Creation perspective etc? Thank you for your kind answer. This is a side not and by far a much less important question, What is the Gospel anyways?
Ray Comfort said...
"So it’s my earnest prayer that Mr. Stern finds a place of genuine repentance and faith in Jesus, so that God can cleanse his dirty heart as He did mine, before the Day of Judgment.
Imagine that--Howard Stern a Christian! Now that would be a real shock."
That's not impossible. In my country certain people are pushing for prostitution to be legalised. A woman who has become very well known in this country through the media, and a brothel owner herself took her case all the way to the constitutional court, but lost. It costed her over 3 million Rand. But what's remarkable is that she gave her life to Jesus Christ after a miraculous experience with God in her hospital room.
What's great about this is that she's well known and was leading the fight to legalise the sex industry, and now she's boldy proclaiming Christ as her Lord and Saviour!
With God everything is possible.
Carl replied to Andy:
"Have you ever tried to pass-off other's words and research as our own? Have you ever lifted a timeline word for word from another website..."
Dear Andy,
You do know that evolutionists on this forum do exactly what you said? You sound so familiar with this practice as to have personal experience with it.
Can you show that any evolutionist on this blog has, in fact, presented as his own words material that he copied from another source? Presenting ideas that we learned from other people does not count; not all research or education (or even opinions reflecting slavish adherence to someone else's opinions) is plagiarism.
The AiGBusted! blogsite has an article, dated November 4, 2009, which compares paragraph by paragraph the "Timeline of Darwin's Life" from Ray's introduction to On the Origin of Species with Dr. Stan Guffey's "A Brief History of Charles Darwin." The former differs from the latter only in the rare subsitution of one word for a synonym. This is usually considered excellent evidence of plagiarism, and requires no first-hand experience to draw this conclusion.
Understandably, there have been NO atheists who have tried to pass off the following words as THEIR own - not even with a ten-foot pole, and for obvious reasons...
"It is the plain truth that we are...cousins of bananas and turnips."
Any takers?
I usually express it along the lines of "we share ancestors with monkeys and mushrooms," although I'll occasionally vary it with "common ancestors with orangutans and orange trees." Note that we are more closely related to mushrooms (I'm a proud opisthokont!) than we are to bananas or oranges.
Carl replied to me:
You're the believer in the mother of all lies, the theory of evolution. So other than devoting one's imagination to it, are you suggesting it's possible to devote genuine "thought" to a lie?
It must be terribly gratifying to your ego to suppose that you've managed to penetrate to a truth (that common descent is false) that has eluded 99+ % of the people who've actually examined the evidence. I suspect, indeed, that the twin motivations of vanity and laziness (being able to feel superior to scientists without actually learning any science) account for some of the popularity of creationism.
Beyond that, are you suggesting that it's impossible to employ actual logic and methodical reasoning to draw out and explicate the implications of a set of false propositions? Then how do you explain the existence of multiple entire systems of theology?
For that matter, do you really suppose that it is impossible to devote genuine thought to a problem, and still get it wrong? What astonishing (if weirdly selective) faith you have in the power of the human intellect!
Even if you did not, in fact, share remote ancestors with gorillas and vastly more remote ancestors with grass (as you do), even if natural selection for some reason was unable to alter a population outside the nebulous boundaries of some "created kind" (and there is no reason to suppose it cannot), you would have no justification in declaring that evolutionary theory is a "lie," a deliberate falsehood.
OutlawGirl said...
On one hand the reason I’m not Christian is the same reason I’m not Buddhist or Hindu. I wasn’t raised that way. Since becoming an atheist and learning about the arguments for and against God (the Christian God and other deities), the main reason I’m not Christian is now because Christianity doesn’t make sense to me. To be more specific, the reason I’m not a Conservative/Fundamentalist Christian is that I don’t agree with any of your politics, I believe that your brand of Christianity advocates immorality, disinformation and ignorance and it’s obvious to me, someone who has only taken a few classes in general biology, that the majority of creationists don’t even know what they’re against.
Hi Outlaw Girl
I was not raised as a Christian either. Christianity did not make sense to me either, I had no knowledge of what it was. I am not a fundamentalist or a conservative or involved with politics. I had a few classes in general biology at school. I agree science is a valuable field of knowledge and it can be used by man to either constructive or destructive ends.
As you can see we have a lot of things in common.
I am now a born again Christian
and the focus of my life is my risen Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Jesus did not advocate immorality, disinformation or ignorance and neither do I. But I do recognise that Jesus is perfect, whilst I am very imperfect.
Jesus explained very simply why life changes when you change your mind and trust in Him:
"The things that are impossible with men are possible with God." Luke 18:27
I have experience of that being true in my life and so I trust in Jesus when He says:
"I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" John 14:6
God Bless.
Neil.
@Terry
If heaven is a place full of the Terry(s), Cameron(s) and Comforts(s) of the world. Hell's not going to be such an awful place afterall.
I personally can't wait!
I didn't even know Stern was still alive since he went to Satellite and couldn't get in fights with the FCC.
It's obvious that Charlie the racist douche bag troll didn't grab this from a creationist/apologetic website. Maybe you should go back to copy/pasting other people's quote mines. It's less painful to look at.
@Jonathan--
You said:
To the atheists on this site:
I have greatly appreciated your taking the time to post your comments, questions and challenges to Ray, me, and other believers. I recognize that it takes a lot of time to continue with multiple posts/conversations and thank you for engaging in the discussion.
You've been one of the most decent Christians on this blog, and I have no problem answering any of your questions as best I can. I've been especially impressed with your willingness to call out people like Terry Burton when he gleefully shows the rest of us that he can't wait to watch us burn in hell. For that I thank you.
I am wondering if any atheists would mind submitting an answer to the question, "What is the main reason why you reject Christianity?"
The main reason I reject Christianity is the same reason I reject any and all religions: All (or almost all) religions depend upon the literal existence of the supernatural. Since there is no evidence that the supernatural literally exists, I have little choice but to reject Christianity.
However, Christianity also has additional problems; especially the concept of hell. The more Christians try to justify hell the more obnoxious Christianity becomes. Christians try to defend the doctrine of hell by saying that anything less than hell would not be "perfect justice" because all people are so unspeakably evil that they deserve eternal torture. But to call all people evil is preposterous on its face: just as there were/are creeps like Charles Manson or Osama Bin Laden or Pol Pot out there, so also are there decent people trying to make the world a better place or just trying to wend their way thru the world; people like Jonas Salk or Abraham Lincoln or Anne Frank. Christianity makes no provision for people like this. "All people are evil." "All people deserved to be tortured for all eternity for their sins." If you're a Christian, you have to be prepared to say that people like Anne Frank deserve to go to hell if they didn't accept Jesus as their personal savior, which is a pretty obnoxious a thing to say and to believe. It's a repellent doctrine, and it makes Christianity a repellent religion.
I was raised as a Christian by parents that have been lifelong Christians and faithful members of Southern Baptist churches. But Christianity raises serious questions that simply cannot be satisfactorily answered. As I grew older, these questions preyed on my mind until they could no longer be ignored. At some point I had to conclude there was something seriously wrong with Christianity, and by the time I was about 20 or so I had walked away from Christianity.
Hope this helps.
Fools make a mock at sin. Wretchedness always follows sin. Sin always complicates life.
Ray, the saddest part about your whole endeavor is that you make a living doing what my two preteen daughters do on a semi regular basis; play the fool. I don't know how many times I have seen that confused expression, followed by the ever famous "What?" question, meant to convey ignorance as to the tactic/lie/misbehavior that they are being questioned on.
The best part about is(at least for me) is that while I see you going deeper into the rabbit hole of lies that you have been digging for quite some time, I see my daughters maturing into well behaved model citizens. Think about that Ray. I mean, it's obviously not going to be some epiphony(unless you only look at the "phony" portion) because you are well aware of the lies and dishonesty you spread. But still, think about it. You are engaging in activities that my oldest child has almost completely shed and she isn't even 13 yet! I mean, how do you make a lying, cheating, dishonest huckster such as yourself turn over a new leaf? You don't, you can't. But even if someone could, would you really listen?
"I am wondering if any atheists would mind submitting an answer to the question, “What is the main reason why you reject Christianity?”
I was raised Catholic, but repented and Jesus became my Lord and Savior when I was a senior in H.S. About four years later I read Lewis's "Mere Christianity". Ironically, that started me thinking and was the beginning of my disbelief.
What made me reject Christianity? Learning about the world and its history, critical thinking skills, and wanting my beliefs to be based in reality.
@ Jonathan,
Here is one reason I reject Christianity. Lying, misrepresenting, and ignorance that is used to defend a certain Christian belief that the creation account in Genesis is literally true. If God needs dishonesty in order to sustain belief in Him then He is pretty pathetic. If what you are preaching is true, there should be no need to lie. And I have seen Ray and his cohorts lie over and over again. Truth is its own defence. The fact that so many Christians fall all over themselves making up things about evolution is very telling.
PhilG said...
Where, Terry (Who remains devoutly not Terrence), in our Lord’s book does it tell us that we may not swear? Furthermore, where in his mighty word does it tell us which words (translated from Hebrew) are swear words?
----------------------------------Ephesians 5:3-7
@ Jonathan:
What about those of us who never accepted Christianity in the first place. You can't reject something you first don't even entertain.
The reason I never even entertained Christianity is because I never saw any reason to.
I'd also like to point out to you, although it's probably pretty obvious to you, that atheism isn't restricted to the rejection of Christianity. I suspect that the reasons you reject all other religions than Christianity are around about the same reasons atheists reject all religions, including Christianity.
@cousin X5:
Its really interesting that you say that God answers all prayers yes, no or later. Because that's exactly the three options that would happen whether God was there or not. Although the 'later' category is probably subsumed into the 'yes' category.
I'd be really interested to hear how you'd tell one situation from the other.
Oh, and your 'intervening God' stories, all have precedents for happening perfectly naturally.
And finally, @ Jerome Anthony:
With God everything is possible is it? Is a square circle possible with God?
Ryk said...
I would agree that according to your mythology Mr. Stern like everyone else is not a good person. You are very clear on that. However that is really only applicable to those who accept your mythology. Other people have different standards of what a good person is. I do not know the man and could not say whether I consider him a good person or not. He would not need to consider my opinion in either case.
Since the precepts of your religion only apply to those who accept them as valid the only statement you can credibly make in that regard is that no Christian is a good person.
---------------------------------
Ryk, Please google NAMBLA and then, according to your mythology (evolution) tell me if you consider that morally good and what you would base your standard on. According to you "Other people have different standards of what a good person is." remember, it is according to your mythology (evolution).
@ All Bloggers.
Completely, on a tangent here, but, I just noticed that when you go to Ray's e-blogger profile, he's listed as being in the "Religion Industry"
Just thought that was evermore ironic as the last day, as well, a touch humorous.
Ray are you humorous? I'm sure you're a fine fellow who's readily able to laugh at himself. But ask yourself Ray, are you ready to laugh at every last aspect of your own life, or are you not? Are there areas that are out of bounds for humor Ray?
Where one is not able to laugh at one's self, one needs to ask one's self; how am I then able to laugh at myself at all?
"A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes." ~ Wittgenstein
P.S. Sorry about always going to Wittgenstein everyone!! He's just so replete with good ideas, I can't help myself...lol
truth seeker:
"Ephesians 5:3-7
But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. NOR SHOULD THERE BE OBSCENITY, FOOLISH TALK OR COARSE JOKING, which are out of
place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them."
Thank you very much. Now, can you please clarify what's meant by "foolish talk" and "coarse joking"? Are ALL kinds of humor and joking condemned by the Bible? What, if anything, distinguishes foolish and coarse from non-foolish and non-coarse?
carl said in response to Andy:
"Andy said,
"Have you ever tried to pass-off other's words and research as our own? Have you ever lifted a timeline word for word from another website..."
Dear Andy,
You do know that evolutionists on this forum do exactly what you said? You sound so familiar with this practice as to have personal experience with it.
Understandably, there have been NO atheists who have tried to pass off the following words as THEIR own - not even with a ten-foot pole, and for obvious reasons...
"It is the plain truth that we are...cousins of bananas and turnips."
Any takers?"
Can you give some examples of one of the atheist posters here publishing posts using copied information without attributing it. I notice you didn't bother. Actually supporting a statement is something theists tend to avoid.
Also saying we are cousins to bananas and turnips are not my original words but I would happily have them be. How about we are cousins to bacteria nad algae. Those are my original words and pretty close to the ones you said no one would claim.
Unlike you I find nothing embarrassing about understanding middle school biology. Admittedly a more accurate statement would be that we are algaes great times to to the power of 1000 grand nephew or some other absurdly huge number. The statement was not actually intended to say my uncles son is a bacterium. It was rhetorical to indicate we share a common ancestor with these organisms. Which we do.
carl: "You're the believer in the mother of all lies, the theory of evolution. So other than devoting one's imagination to it, are you suggesting it's possible to devote genuine "thought" to a lie?"
How can one identify the lie if one doesn't think about it?
What does the veracity of a concept have to do with being able to think about it?
carl: "Understandably, there have been NO atheists who have tried to pass off the following words as THEIR own - not even with a ten-foot pole, and for obvious reasons...
"It is the plain truth that we are...cousins of bananas and turnips." "
What "obvious" reasons? Why should a rather obvious and unremarkable consequence of universal common descent be embarrassing? Why do you not respond to this fact with reason and or evidence rather than point at it and laugh?
Carl said "Article: Whatever Happened to Zinjanthropus? "
As I was not a scientist that ever believed or cared about zinjanthropus why would I consider that a myth I subscribed to. Even if it could be properly called a myth and not simply a mistake.(by the way if you wish to call Christianity a mistake instead of a myth I'm cool with that.)
More importantly it would only be relevant to the theory of evolution if some portion of the TOE were predicated or dependent on that particular specimen. It is not. It isn't really even dependent on the fossil record at all.
Your understanding of evolution, like that of many creationists is superficial and outdated.
However if anyone actually falsified the theory of evolution I would happily call it false, or even a myth if that is appropriate. Maybe you should work on that instead of spouting off irrelevancies.
cousinsx5: "I have had several examples in my own life where God intervened."
How do you know that these examples were the work of God, and not Satan, or Gandalf, or The Ghost of Johnny Carson, or just chance?
In other words, how do you know who to attribute a remarkable occurrence to?
@ Cousinsx5:
"God always answers prayer. Either Yes, No, or Later."
Isn't that convenient.
I get better results from my "Magic 8 Ball".
Face it... God doesn't answer prayer because there is no God. Your cute stories don't amount to anything. Hearsay, speculation, coincidence, accident, luck, or merely lies.
Nothing you stated was the least bit compelling.
Cousinsx5 said, “God always answers prayer. Either Yes, No, or Later.”
How would you know the difference between a Prayer that is answered and one that is not? In the old canard, “Either Yes, No, or Later” that pretty much covers all of the bases. I pray to my cell-phone (pick up, pick up, pick up) and it answers my prayers pretty much the same way. Sometimes after I pray to my cell-phone the thing that I was praying for happens (the person answers), and sometimes it doesn’t. Are you saying that my cell-phone is answering my prayers?
WV = moses
Wait What said...
Just think Ray Howard has 20 Million listeners, I mean your trying to reach a couple hundred thousand students with the book drive.
"and few there be that find it."
Debunkey Monkey said...
"I'm sickened by all religions. Religion has divided people. I don't think there's any difference between the pope wearing a large hat and parading around with a smoking purse and an African painting his face white and praying to a rock." - Howard Stern
I agree with Stern here, for the religions of men do divide. And in the case of the Pope and the African, we need to know that the Pope's church is a seat of many pagan influences.
What my heart cried out for many years ago, someone who could answer all my needs for truth and for life, has been granted me. The grace of Yeshua be granted may to anyone who will trust Him. God is not looking for people to condemn, without saving trust in his Son all are already condemned. We were born into condemnation. BUT we were born with the capacity to respond to God's evidence and trust the Creator.
CousinX: "This is a response to KTaylor."
Actually Jonathan explicitly said that he didn't want others responding to our replies: "...I would ask that there be NO Christian remarks, responses or rebuttals allowed." I'm guessing you missed that.
CousinX: "God does interact with Christians, you just never knew Him personally. You had a false ‘religion’. I did also at one time so I'm speaking from experience."
Of course you would say that. It's an easy way of dealing with the cognitive dissonance that people who once claimed they had a personal relationship with God could later say that they were in fact deluded. I really can't argue with you on this one, because you are not open to such an event happening.
Well your stories are impressive, but of course they all anecdotal. And several of them talk to the kinds of coincidences that all of us, Christian or not, experience from time to time. As to the healings, well spontaneous remissions do happen with non-Christians. But there is little reason to believe these are supernatural occurrences. My own experience of Christian 'healings' is that even when God is attributed to the healing, the reality is that the true 'healing' came from medical science. If you have a worldview where you think God intervenes, then you will be looking for evidence for that all the time. It isn't too hard a job for our pattern-recognition-based brains to find the links and draw incorrect conclusions. Again, we remember the hits. What you don't tell us are the thousands of prayers you've made where people were prayed for and didn't get well, where the nice little coincidences didn't happen. Yes, you can say 'Yes, no, later' but that's just a form of rationalization to allow for the fact that whatever happens is from God. The truth for many ex-believers is the simple reality that God simply doesn't answer prayer. Saying 'later' is simply the default option when God doesn't answer.
CousinX: "And what has Kirk ever done? He's a family man, committed husband and father."
I never even mentioned Kirk, so don't where you get this from and have nothing personally against him...
stranger.strange.land said...
That "we are only beggars, telling other beggars where to find bread" may be a well-worn saying; but I believe it is true. If God can save the likes of you and me, Ray, there is hope for Howard Stern.
Craig B
I know beyond doubting that Ted Bundy was saved and have been told that Jeffry Dahmer and David Berkowitz were also. God delights in saving the base things of the world.
1 Corinthians 1
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Chaplain Entrekin,
When I was a teenager, I had a Christian girlfriend who claimed that Christians are morally superior. She also used to lie a lot. When I caught her lying and pointed it out, she found it funny. It made me realize what Christianity can do to the human mind. I have had a dislike for it ever since.
wv:unall
Bob: "Ryk, Please google NAMBLA"
No one here is interested in joining your club, Bob.
Ray, I seem to be having the hardest time getting courteous, factual comments about the relatively underwhelming box office figures for Fireproof posted in this thread. Why is that, do you suppose?
Terry said "Read the sentence carefully, he is talking about two separate things!"
You think? Maybe, but eitherway, it's very clumsy writing on Ray's part.
Bob made a rather second rate attempt at answering me with:
PhilG said...
Where, Terry (Who remains devoutly not Terrence), in our Lord’s book does it tell us that we may not swear? Furthermore, where in his mighty word does it tell us which words (translated from Hebrew) are swear words?
----------------------------------Ephesians 5:3-7
Bob, Although I must give you credit for at least attempting an answer, it does fall rather short.
Could you please explaint to me how the passage you referenced (See blow) entreats me not to swear, and most particularly defines what words are acceptable and what words are not.
It certainly does not tell me which words for penis (for example) are offensive to God and which he finds perfrectly acceptable.
3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
Phil
Radagast said...
"When I was a teenager, I had a Christian girlfriend who claimed that Christians are morally superior. She also used to lie a lot. When I caught her lying and pointed it out, she found it funny. It made me realize what Christianity can do to the human mind. I have had a dislike for it ever since."
@ Radagast,
This perfectly aligns with what the bible says when it reveals in, "Romans 3:23
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"
A person does not become perfect after getting saved... but is SEEN as perfect & righteous in GOD'S SIGHT.. because of what Jesus did on the cross. He, not only died for us.. but imputed His Righteousness & Holiness upon us & took our wretched sin upon Himself.
For this reason, we can enter into the kingdom on our day of Judgment if we have repented & put our trust in Jesus alone to save us.
But until then....
the 'Born-Again Christian', goes through a process called, "Sanctification". Which is when a person grows in Holiness. Slowly they begin to reflect God's love & Holiness outwardly.
EITHER WAY, you shouldn't be basing your belief (or in this case, lack-of belief) on others who claim they follow it.
A coherent worldview must be able to satisfactorily answer four questions: that of origin,
meaning, morality, and destiny.
The Christian faith is unique in its ability to answer all four of these questions.
Wow Bob so based on Ephesians...
It says you are not to partner with those who are disobedient. Buying things they make is a partnership with them.
Who did you buy your car from ? Who made it ? What about your frig? tv? oven?
Do you know the moral character of the people that mined the iron ore that made the components of your car ? What about the people that made the brick for you house ? Or if not a brcik house how about the ones that cut the timber to make the frame of your house ?
I mean Bob you could be supporting people that follow impure lifestyles by buying products that they had a hand in making. maybe one of the wood cutters or bricklayers may have even been a homosexual. And since you are buying the products that he made, he has a job and is earning a living.
Carl you are quotemining again. Put up the whole quote you creationist.
@Bob
By my moral standard and that shared by most of the world the ideological perspective that sex with children is acceptable is incorrect. I could probably ask thousands and get the same response.
However to the members of NAMBLA it is of course perfectly reasonable. Since the contrary view is dominant the activities and ideologies of NAMBLA are disdained and criminalized. That is kind of the point I was making.
The members of NAMBLA are doubtless good by their standards just as they are not by mine. Since mine is shared by the system that makes the laws they are kind of in trouble and I am not.
The same could be said for genocide. Most of us find it deplorable yet in Biblical times Gods chosen people considered it a high moral good to commit genocide against the enemies of God. Also the followers of Moses were told to leave girl children alive to be raped. Also not something most of us currently consider moral. I mean if our soldiers in Afghanistan were told to go out and kill all of the men, women, boy children and infants and even the livestock but keep the little girls alive and rape them. We would call that bad. Yet Gods people called it a high moral good.
That is why moral relativism is a fact. It may be a fact you don't like. Perhaps it would be better if everyone had the same moral standards. However wanting does not make truth.
Call-Upon-Jesus wrote:
Fools make a mock at sin. Wretchedness always follows sin. Sin always complicates life.
Proverbs 13:15
Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard.
imadallasguy wrote:
If heaven is a place full of the Terry(s), Cameron(s) and Comforts(s) of the world. Hell's not going to be such an awful place afterall.
I personally can't wait!
Biggest problem in Hell? No water there.
Jonathan: "I am wondering if any atheists would mind submitting an answer to the question, “What is the main reason why you reject Christianity?”
I was raised fundamental/evangelical, went to private school, read the Bible cover to cover dozens of times growing up, and went to church 3x/week for about 18 years - I can still quote many, many Bible verses, which I had to memorize as a kid. For nearly 20 years I prayed to God that He would reveal Himself to me, I searched and never found, despite wanting to find.
Briefly, VERY briefly:
The MAIN reason I am not a Christian is because the Bible and its interventionist God cannot be true - too many inconsistencies, impossibilities, its non-divine canonization, and its irreconcilable differences with reality; alternative explanations, supported by data and evidence, are more correct and likely - the Bible is copied mythology authored by humans, there is no evidence for the Genesis account which is refuted by scientific research, and the Bible/religion are human vehicles for socio-political control, which accounts for its persistence.
The Bible never made sense to me as a kid and it still does not - though I continue to read it occasionally.
Ooops, My apologies for the double post - cut n' paste issues on different computer.
Iago said...
"...you creationist."
Dear Iago,
LOL! You're making me laugh more often. That worries me.
What would you like to be called?
Isaiah 1
Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow..."
Dave wrote: Biggest problem in Hell? No water there.
Who cares when you're dead? The dead don't drink anything, unless you're planning on becoming a vampire.
Carl said,
"Iago said...
"...you creationist."
Dear Iago,
LOL! You're making me laugh more often. That worries me.
What would you like to be called?"
Brilliant response to accusations of quotemining Carl. If taking one tiny insignificant aspect of Lago's request for the full quote and responding to it while ignoring the actual request doesn't prove you're not a quoteminer I don't know what will.
esly carrero sadi :
A coherent worldview must be able to satisfactorily answer four questions: that of origin,
meaning, morality, and destiny.
The Christian faith is unique in its ability to answer all four of these questions.
endquote
I call shenanigans. The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster exlpains all these things.
Origins : First his noodliness created a mountain, a tree and a midget and everything came from there.
meaning : should be obvious, eat pasta and drink beer.
morality : chase strippers and drink beer.
destiny : when we die we get to go to Heaven which consists of pirate ships, a stripper factory and a beer volcano.
See it answers all those questions.
Well Carl I am glad to make you laugh, afterall creationist in my book equates to self deluded lying d-bag.
Ryk said...
@Bob
By my moral standard and that shared by most of the world the ideological perspective that sex with children is acceptable is incorrect. I could probably ask thousands and get the same response.
However to the members of NAMBLA it is of course perfectly reasonable. Since the contrary view is dominant the activities and ideologies of NAMBLA are disdained and criminalized. That is kind of the point I was making.
The members of NAMBLA are doubtless good by their standards just as they are not by mine. Since mine is shared by the system that makes the laws they are kind of in trouble and I am not.
-----------------------------
So what you're saying is is that if the majority says it's ok to have sex with children then you are willing to hand yours over since the system sets the standard.
Ryk also said...
The same could be said for genocide. Most of us find it deplorable yet in Biblical times Gods chosen people considered it a high moral good to commit genocide against the enemies of God. Also the followers of Moses were told to leave girl children alive to be raped. Also not something most of us currently consider moral. I mean if our soldiers in Afghanistan were told to go out and kill all of the men, women, boy children and infants and even the livestock but keep the little girls alive and rape them. We would call that bad. Yet Gods people called it a high moral good.
------------------------------
Your ignorance of the character of God is obvious and somewhat comical.
That is why moral relativism is a fact. It may be a fact you don't like. Perhaps it would be better if everyone had the same moral standards. However wanting does not make truth.
--------------------------------
Do you consider relativism to be true in general?
Bob said:
"Ryk, Please google NAMBLA and then, according to your mythology (evolution) tell me if you consider that morally good and what you would base your standard on. According to you "Other people have different standards of what a good person is." remember, it is according to your mythology (evolution)."
The theory of evolution by natural selection does not say anything about morality, myth or not. Why are you misrepresenting what the theory says?
It really isn't so hard Bob:
1/ Child molestation causes physical and emotional harm to the child.
2/I don't like being harmed so activities that harm me are undesirable.
3/ I assume that others don't like being harmed either. Seemingly a reasonable assumption as I have many other commonalities with other people.
4/ Therefore activities that harm others are undesirable.
Do you really have so much difficulty with this apparently simple concept? Really?
It doesn't surprise me how those who beleive in the religion called Evilution ummm sorry Evolution cannot present their theories scientifically without satire or mockery which is nothing but a fallacious in intent -
They result to satire in their reasoning because - lets face it - they have no leg to stand on.
Ive read comments here and time and time again Evilutionists reasoning baffles me - no scientific reasoning at all just SPIN and SOUND BITES.
Shame
Esly Carrero said...
"The Christian faith is unique in its ability to answer all four of these questions."
Only if you don't count all the other religions with a creation story and an afterlife mythology.
And guess what? the 'naturalistic worldview', if there is such a thing, answers them too:
Origins: Some naturalistic process not completely explored yet.
Meaning: None inherently, except that which you make for yourself. Note: yes, no inherent meaning is an account of meaning.
Morality: Has a natural and cultural basis.
Destiny: In life, that which you make for yourself. After you die, to lie in the ground and become wormfood.
Not terribly glamorous, but that has no bearing whatsoever on the truth value of something.
You should probably qualify your assertion to say "The Christian faith is unique in its ability to answer all four of these questions in a sufficiently comforting way for me". Seems more accurate.
Bob said revealing a complete lack of moral clarity:
"So what you're saying is is that if the majority says it's ok to have sex with children then you are willing to hand yours over since the system sets the standard."
Not at all my standard would remain unchanged. The commonly accepted standard would change to reflect the majority opinion but mine would not do so. I would find child rape morally wrong even if 99% of the population said it was right. However it would be the 99% that make the laws. In fact under such a system I could well end up jailed for honoring my personal moral standard.
For example a majority in this country find Christianity to be moral whereas I do not. The majority set the standard but mine does not need to conform to it.
Bob then said without any substantiation or refutation of my premise.
"Your ignorance of the character of God is obvious and somewhat comical."
No it is not, your justifications and willful blindness to the hideous evil of your myth figure is however tragic.
Unless of course your standard of morality does support genocide and child rape, then you are consistent with the character of your deity."
He then added cryptically
"Do you consider relativism to be true in general?"
It is consistent with all observable evidence. Certainly no one has demonstrated a non subjective standard, however I couldn't say whether it is "true" in any absolute sense. We very well could and probably do have some general social instincts hardwired into us that set a broad behavioral norm.
@Ray--
I can certainly understand why he is called a shock-jock. Wow! I was really shocked to hear how professionally uninformed he was.
In a mere 20 minutes he managed to mess up American history twice, he kept calling Kirk Cameron a "kid," when Kirk has six kids himself. Mr. Stern had no idea that his last movie brought in more than 34 million dollars. He was confused as to why we are giving the books to students.
Ray, between the two of you, you're the one with a reputation for being a dolt. They call you Banana-Man, fer crine out loud!
Stern's a pig tho, I'll grant you that.
Jonathan, you are an oasis of lucidity in a desert of dense, so your question deserves a response. I don't consider myself an atheist, but perhaps my comments about Christianity would be helpful.
I would say that for me, the process began when reading my son’s 7th grade Life Science textbook, from his science class at a Christian school. The textbook stated:
“Satan wants people to believe in evolution.”
This led me down the path of actual research. I read textbooks, journals, articles, experiment results, hypotheses, and actually learned not only about what science is, but the sciences of paleontology, genetics, biology, evolution, cosmology and some other related fields. This was not easy, but the benefits of learning were well worth the effort.
Simultaneously, I delved deeper into my religious belief in Christianity, re-reading and studying the Bible, reading works, studies and apologetics from Augustine, Aquinas, Lewis, Luther, Spurgeon, etc., to the current crop of evangelists, including D James Kennedy, James Dobson, Bob Jones, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and creationists, including Henry Morris, Kent Hovind, Ken Ham, Michael Behe, Bill Demski, Comfort and others.
While doing so, I branched onto the issues of teaching creationism and Christianity in schools, with the attendant implications of separation of Church and State, and Constitutional law, which led to investigations of our founding fathers, the age of enlightenment, and enlightenment thought. Which brought me round again to science.
A few important lessons came out of this study.
1-Science, as a whole, is self-correcting, and, as a tool, has amply evidenced it’s worth in the betterment and advancement of humanity. Theology is static and reactionary, relying on ever wilder and wilder apologetics to attempt to shoehorn reality and new-found knowledge into ever-stretched accommodation with interpretation of scriptures and holy books.
2-Satan, in modern Christianity is a bogey man, used to gain, and retain power, socially, politically, indoctrinationally, and economically.
3-Hell is a fear tactic. No one knows if Hell exists, and those who claim to know, in fact, have no more real knowledge about it than any one else, but merely assert such claims as true, based on their personal faith and belief (delusion) alone.
4-Every religion claims to be The Truth™, but there is little agreement, and certainly no unanimity, even within Christianity.
5-The Bible, as so eloquently stated by Albert Einstein, is “a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish."
6-More is discovered and learned about the evolution of organisms daily. Discoveries to support creationism are non-existent. The more we learn about the genome, history, and the nature of the universe and matter, the less sense a literal interpretation of the Bible makes.
7-Christianity has been so degraded that if Jesus were to walk among us today, I have concluded that were he to go into virtually any church in America, or the offices of Living Waters, he would say “My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.” The hypocrisy in religion today and Christianity in particular, is rampant, deplorable and unsupportable.
There is more, but that's a start.
afam,
it has for decades of efforts turned out that a large number of creationists and denialists in general refuse to listen to presented science, refuse to even get acquainted with the basic knowledge to begin to understand science. Then instead mock that which is too hard to understand, ridicule and insult those who are better educated, and often more intelligent. All the while proudly parading their ignorance as if it were an admirable trait, masquerading their own moral confusion with assertion of absolutes, and protect their most cherished falsehoods by sponsoring pseudoscience and dragging hard working scientists's work through the dirt by quotemining select fragments of their statements.
That is why many people with a basic interest in science up to people with decades of education and work dedicated to science get satirical and snarky. The science is in the papers - have you read them? There are simpler explanations of those papers available and easily accessible. Or are you one of the people who complain that people aren't eager to spoon feed you knowledge? You got to this site, so I just don't believe you are unable to view some scientific articles.
I think systematically lying, lying to children in particular, and not questioning one's own dogmatic ideology is far worse than mocking someone.
Apparently you believe the opposite to be true. So be it.
Have a nice weekend.
Esly Carrero,
Your reply means nothing to me. It may as well have been in Chinese. Let me make one thing clear. I have a dislike for Christianity. It doesn't follow that I dislike Christians since I see them as victims of a memetic mind virus.
Esly Carrera said; "A coherent worldview must be able to satisfactorily answer four questions: that of origin,
meaning, morality, and destiny."
Says who??? "I don't know" is a fine answer, try it some time.
Felix
You have committed the very same logical fallacies that i just mentioned - you present media or general Evilutionist SPIN
If you have any of these so called scientific facts that Creationists deny or are simply are ignorant of then please present them
Do not result to the "you have no real understanding of the subject thats wny you do not understand it". NONSENCE!
Thats the Evilutionists next trick - OH its too complex for meagers like you to understand !!
Your running outta SPIN and propaganda - please let science talk " not science so falsely called"
afam, you kind of wrote:
"Do not result to the "you have no real understanding of the subject thats wny you do not understand it". NONSENCE!"
Er...hate to break it to you...but if I came along claiming that "The Bible says that a mule called Jesus turned into a bush and it burned people, thats's just dumb!"...
...' then you would be quite right to state that I had 'no real understanding of the subject at hand'.
Same goes for you my friend.
OutlawGirl replies to me aka lambsev:
Dave wrote: Biggest problem in Hell? No water there.
Who cares when you're dead? The dead don't drink anything, unless you're planning on becoming a vampire.
What if Yeshua is right?
19-21 "There once was a rich man, expensively dressed in the latest fashions, wasting his days in conspicuous consumption. A poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, had been dumped on his doorstep. All he lived for was to get a meal from scraps off the rich man's table. His best friends were the dogs who came and licked his sores.
22-24 "Then he died, this poor man, and was taken up by the angels to the lap of Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell and in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham in the distance and Lazarus in his lap. He called out, 'Father Abraham, mercy! Have mercy! Send Lazarus to dip his finger in water to cool my tongue. I'm in agony in this fire.'
25-26 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that in your lifetime you got the good things and Lazarus the bad things. It's not like that here. Here he's consoled and you're tormented. Besides, in all these matters there is a huge chasm set between us so that no one can go from us to you even if he wanted to, nor can anyone cross over from you to us.'
27-28 "The rich man said, 'Then let me ask you, Father: Send him to the house of my father where I have five brothers, so he can tell them the score and warn them so they won't end up here in this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham answered, 'They have Moses and the Prophets to tell them the score. Let them listen to them.'
30 "'I know, Father Abraham,' he said, 'but they're not listening. If someone came back to them from the dead, they would change their ways.'
31 "Abraham replied, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the Prophets, they're not going to be convinced by someone who rises from the dead.'"
Note: This is why Ray starts with the Ten Commandments, see Moses in 31 above. If one will not hear God's Moral Laws given to Moses, (the Ten C.'s) Jesu who has risen from the dead will be incomprehensible to that one. So if you deny the efficasy, purpose, and truth of Thou Shalt not Lie, you will not only lie, but you will believe liars.
afam wrote:
Felix
You have committed the very same logical fallacies that i just mentioned - you present media or general Evilutionist SPIN
If you have any of these so called scientific facts that Creationists deny or are simply are ignorant of then please present them
Do not result to the "you have no real understanding of the subject thats wny you do not understand it". NONSENCE!
Thats the Evilutionists next trick - OH its too complex for meagers like you to understand !!
Your running outta SPIN and propaganda - please let science talk " not science so falsely called"
Was it you raoul who suggested we see that 12 part youtube presentation which began suggesting this very thing: That we are not fit to judge evolution until we study vast amounts of science (much false) under the tutelage of evolutionists?
To Raoul Rheits
dont know what your on about since ive had no convo with you but as the Bible teaches we allow REASON to prevail not kill REASON by saying such things as "oh its too hard to understand but just thought id let you know that your wrong and im right" -
Anyway thanks for prooving me right about the tactics athiest play
afam:
"To Raoul Rheits
dont know what your on about since ive had no convo with you"
That's why I quoted you, but if you didn't get it, here it is again.
You said:
""Do not result (sic) to the "you have no real understanding of the subject thats (sic) wny (sic) you do not understand it". NONSENCE(sic)!"
See, I never claimed it was 'hard to understand'. I am illustrating that if someone shows that they do not even understand the subject that they are criticizing, then their criticisms are invalid.
This goes for any subject, not just science.
If I was to 'criticize' or mock Christians and the Bible for saying "Moses came down to earth from spaceship and gave everyone chocolate" ... then you would be perfectly right to disregard my criticisms because I had no clue what I was talking about.
Same goes for Ray et al who say such things as 'Evolution means everything came from nothing, and that cows turn into cats, and that males 'evolved' fully and then had to look for a fully evolved female.. etc..."
What is so hard to understand about this?
If you don't know what you are talking about, why is your argument valid?
Afam:
"Was it you raoul who suggested we see that 12 part youtube presentation which began suggesting this very thing: That we are not fit to judge evolution until we study vast amounts of science (much false) under the tutelage of evolutionists? "
Nope, not me. As far as I am concerned you can dismiss or deny the science and the evidence until the cows come home, as long as you don't misrepresent it and then claim that you aren't.
afam:
"Thats the Evilutionists next trick - OH its too complex for meagers like you to understand !!
Your running outta SPIN and propaganda"
Oh the irony. Your spin and propaganda isn't supported by one person here who called you a 'meager'(sic) is it?
If so, then please quote them.
Also, who told you that evolution is 'too complex for you to understand'? Or did you make that bit up too?
And 'evilutionists'? Please.
Do you call everyone 'evil' if they accept something that you don't? Isn't that just sweet.
Here's some more for you to try:
'Judaevilists'
'Agnosatanics'
'Evilbuddhists'
OK, I couldn't make a 'smart' one for Buddhists. I'm sure you could find something if you spent enough time. 'Evilutionist' is arguably too easy isn't it. 'Evol' - 'evil'...? How long did that take to invent?
I mean really?
Dave aka lambsev: "That we are not fit to judge evolution until we study vast amounts of science (much false) under the tutelage of evolutionists?"
Do you have similar objections to heliocentricism being unfit to be judged by anyone who has not studied under the tutelage of heliocentricist astronomers?
afam,
just now saw your response to my post. My post contained a mention of the laziness of people who refuse to find and read easily accessible articles about evolution or other science, and instead insist the information be presented to them in ready-to-digest spoon-sized dosage. This tactic not only shoves all of the workload on to the other party, it also makes it much easier to selectively ignore and deny the information.
Hilariously, that is exactly what you are trying to do.
I think you have well confirmed my point. Thanks.
WW II with the exception of Japan was a war fought between "christian" nations !!! Go figure !!! France, Germany, England, Russia, Austria and all the smaller nations and yep! The United States of America. Christian. America has been mightily used by God. I think we were moved by God into WW II to help end that war, yet we had to become self interested before we would move. There was a lot of knowledge about the Holocaust in the White House before we went to war, but we didn't go to war for that, we went to war because the Germans were sinking our ships.
Jesus, after telling to the Apostles to take the sword, also said: "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." Matthew 26:52 Is America willing now to perish? This may also be seen in Isaiah 9:5 "For every [tramping] warrior's war boots and all his armor in the battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood shall be burned as fuel for the fire."
Wars were prophecied by Jesus. But is there any blood ever shed since Jesus own blood that has saved any man?
God directs, yes He micro and macro manages men and nations. this is the only context in which I can understand this verse:
"Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain." Psalm 76:10
God is simply able to control wars between sinners.
8 Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth.
9 He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire. Psalm 46
Isaiah 2
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
This prophesy is repeated almost exactly in Micah Ch. 4
Don't you want to learn the word of God on the mountain of the Lord?
or do you want to remain in the valley of decision:
Joel 3
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
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