Atheist Central -- Ray Comfort’s Blog

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools..." (Romans 1:20-22).
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(Matthew 5:27-28).
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Friday, March 21, 2008

Don’t Forget the Jerk (for Christians only)

I’m not big on fishing. I far prefer catching. However, there can be no catching without fishing, so I have made a point of studying the skills that make a difference as to whether I catch or fish.

For example, there is a right and wrong way to bait a hook. Bait should be used to attract fish and at the same time disguise the hook. Fish are not stupid. They aren’t going to bite onto a hook that they can see. So, a wise fisherman baits the hook to hide its deadly barbs. Then, when he sees that a fish is nibbling at the bait, he quickly jerks the line and pulls the hook into the jaw, and reels him in.

Apologetics are wonderful bait. I love even the smell of a good apologetical argument. It can’t help but attract the fish. He doesn’t see anything threatening about an argument about the Bible. He knows he can win any dispute about that book of myths. It has an aroma that attracts him.

God’s Law is the hook; and it’s that from which he instinctively keeps his distance. It threatens him. That’s because it brings the knowledge of sin (see Romans 3:19, 20), so his mind is naturally hostile towards the Law. The Scriptures tells us that his carnal mind is at “enmity” with God, it’s “not subject to the Law of God, neither can it be” (see Romans 8:7). He isn’t stupid. If he can see the Law, he’s not going to bite. So a wise fisher of men will carefully hide the hook under some good bait.

Jesus did this with the woman at the well. He first spoke of natural water. Nothing threatening here. Then He quickly pulled the hook of the Law into her jaw, by using the Seventh Commandment to bring the knowledge of sin (see John 4:16).

Paul did a similar thing in Athens. His heart was stirred because the whole city was given over to idolatry (see Acts 17:16). So he baited them by giving an interesting line about their poets, then he quickly jerked the Law into the jaw by preaching against their idolatry (see verses 29-30). They had sinned against God by transgressing the First and the Second of the Ten Commandments. They had “other gods” before Him, and they therefore needed to repent. The Law brought the Athenians the knowledge of sin.

A Fly on the Rock
Despite these examples in Scripture, many Christians go fishing with powerful and attractive apologetics but leave out the hook. They talk about the existence of God, the infallibility of Scripture, archeological findings, creationism, the fallacy of evolution, the age of the earth, the depth of dust on the moon, etc., but they don’t see the necessity of using the Law to bring the knowledge of sin.

Let’s be a fly on a rock and listen to a well-equipped apologetical fisher of men. He throws a line towards an unbeliever. There is a nibble, and a conversation begins. Good reason for God’s existence is given. Back the sinner comes with an argument for atheism. The Christian quotes Scripture. The atheist retaliates with an argument about “circular reasoning.” And there begins an intellectual battle. One says that creation is proof for God’s existence and the other says it’s the mere product of billions of years of evolution. It’s a fascinating conversation--an intellectually challenging match of wits for both parties.

However, the argument has no resolution. It seems to be going on forever and going nowhere. Suddenly, the Christian brings out a powerful point that leaves the atheist with his mouth open. He has no comeback. He is defeated. It’s all over. He has lost the argument about the existence of God. Does he then say, “You are right and I am wrong. There is a God and I have sinned against Him. What should I do?” No! Instead he says, “Okay. What about bats? The Bible calls them birds!! Huh? And how about God advocating genocide, and what about slavery? And how about the killing of women who aren’t virgins on their wedding night! Your god is nothing but a wicked tyrant!”

There is a very good reason that he isn’t giving up the argument. It is because each night he has a habit of going on the Internet and surfing his favorite sites. He has an addiction he loves. He drools over pornography that is so pleasurable, it takes his breath away. Literally. Besides that, he has incredible sex with his gorgeous girlfriend, any time he wants. He didn’t know that life could be so good.

Think of it now. A stranger has just come along who wants to put an end to all that pleasure. All of it. If he gives up the battle, he won’t be allowed to even look at a woman with lust, let alone have sex with her. This religious nut wants to make him celibate. Horrors! He wants him to sit in a boring church, singing old hymns, listening to a deathly boring priest, and mindlessly clutching a book filled with fairytales. Give up? Are you kidding?So the unbeliever is going to fight this battle with tooth and nail. He is going to fortify his hedonistic lifestyle with the zeal of a Pharisee, and he will do it with every intellectual argument he can find. And he can easily find websites that give a stack of arguments that promise to justify godlessness. There he can arm himself with a mass of rabbit trails down which he can send the unsuspecting Christian.

Take the subject of atheistic evolution. Counter one of his many arguments, and he will dig up another bone of contention. He unearths them like there’s no tomorrow. He couldn’t care less if they are credible. He just wants to bury every Christian under a mountain of fossils, so that he and his stupid oppressive religion disappear from the face of the earth.

Remember, what has gone on between the two of them has been a battle of intellects. Every time a battle is won by the Christian, another skirmish is started. So if the Christian really wants to win him to the Kingdom of God, he must look to the most skilled fisher of men. He must do what Jesus did. He has to move away from the hostility of the intellect, and go directly to the conscience. And he must do it quickly.

The Lust He Loves
Let me change the analogy for a moment from baits and hooks to swords and shields. The sinner is using his intellect as a shield to keep you away from his conscience, and you will never get to the heart if you don’t quickly and purposefully push the shield aside and address his conscience. You must get there, because he will never give up his darling sins if you stay in the intellect.

The Bible says that as Christians, we have “escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust” (2 Peter 1:4, italics added). While we can lust after material things, when the Scriptures speak of lusting after “her beauty,” of “burning” lust, and a lust of “uncleanness,” it is obviously referring to sexual lust. It is that lust that gives a sinner pleasure, but the Scriptures warn “Then, when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death” (James 1:15). The sin he so loves truly is a “deadly” sin. The lethal poison he drinks is sweet to his taste, but it will take him to Hell. He doesn’t believe that because he has no knowledge of sin (see Romans 7:7). Again, he doesn’t understand the consequences of sin, and so he continues to drink iniquity like water, and he will fight to the death for the right to do so.

Taking Control
Let's say I start a spiritual conversation and have a nibbling fish. He is arguing about bacteria, bones, fossils, Zeus, Thor, so-called biblical contradictions, and quoting Richard Dawkin's hateful words. As he says that God is a monster and Jesus was a liar, I quietly think to myself, "The Jerk." Then, motivated by love, I deliberately take control of the conversation and jerk the Law into his rapidly moving jaw. I am a fisher of men, and I don't want this man to be cast into the lake of fire. I don't want him to be damned in Hell forever. I therefore don't let the fish dictate where we are going.

I ask, “Do you think you are a good person?” He says that he knows that he’s a good person (see Proverbs 20:6). I say, “Do you think you have kept the Ten Commandments?” He says he doesn’t believe in them. I tell him that I wasn’t asking if he believed in them. I’m asking if he has kept them. I say, “Let’s go through some of them and see how you will do on Judgment Day.” He says he doesn’t believe in Judgment Day. So, I say, “Let’s just surmise that there is one, and see how you will do. Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen something?” He’s thoroughly hooked. You can’t back out now because of his pride. I have done what Paul did in Romans 2:21-24. He said, “You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal [Eighth Commandment]? You who say, ‘Do not commit adultery,’ do you commit adultery [Seventh Commandment]? You who abhor idols [First and Second Commandment], do you rob temples [Eighth Commandment]? You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? For ‘the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, [Third Commandment]’ as it is written. ’”

I did what Jesus did in Mark 10:18-19: “So Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’” He was using the Law to bring the knowledge of sin.The only thing that will make a sin-loving sinner want to give up the battle, is the fear of the Lord. Scripture tells us that it is that fear that will cause him to depart from evil (see Proverbs 16:6). If he doesn’t fear future punishment, he won’t depart from sin, and the way to produce the fear of the Lord is to do what Jesus did. Point to the Law. It’s to do what Paul did. Point to the Law. Felix must be made to tremble (see Acts 24:25). Jerk the hook into the jaw; and do it quickly.

Knowledge that God has appointed a Day in which He will judge the world in righteousness makes sinners see that it’s in their best interest to depart from sin. But, if I may say so, we depart somewhat unwillingly. Fleeing from wrath doesn’t produce contrition (sorrow for sin). Seeing the cross in all its horror, does. Knowing that I am a lawbreaker, and that there are terrible consequences for my actions, makes me fear. But seeing my God pay the fine in the life’s blood of His precious Son, makes me sorry. It breaks my hard heart. The Law produces terror. The cross produces contrition. Without the Law that cruel cross has little meaning. The greater I see my sin in the light of God’s Law (see Romans 7:13), the greater I will understand and appreciate the mercy shown to me at Calvary’s cross.

So, use good apologetics. Find the best bait you can find. Then carefully hide the hook, and as soon as the fish nibbles, jerk the line—swing to the Law. Don’t wait. Do it quickly. Don’t let the sinner shield his conscience for another precious minute. He may not have that long.

96 comments:

rufus said...

Ho-Hum. Ray, off topic, but when is the evolution "book" coming out? And please, please, tell me about the "research" you did for the book. Thanks.

captain howdy said...

Ray--

I know you said Christians only, but would you like to play the part of the fisher and I play the mark--I mean fish? Only, I don't follow your script. I follow mine.

TERRY said...

Your quite a Fisherman of Men! I salute you Brother.

Your message is coming thru loud and clear. The ministries of Living Waters, and Way of the Master are truly grounded in the Word of God. Speak to the Conscious, NOT to the Intellect.

Pastor Tim said...

Excellent! It is truly the Way of the Master! I have to use this. Great stuff Ray, keep on preaching because that trumpet will sound some day and then the lost are really lost.

ed temptly said...

Ok, so we've engaged you in conversation, and you've gotten to the point where you ask if I'm a good person. Doesn't really matter what I say here (I'd probably say no). We get the whole understanding that I don't believe in your deity of choice, or the threat of punishment, but for the sake of the conversation, I'm willing to imagine such a scenario. You review the commandments with me, showing how even thoughts some what related to the listed offense are equivalent to full violation.

So, in this imaginary situation - I'm going to suffer eternally. That's nice. I like scary stories. Still don't believe it.

Now what?

Laura said...

Suddenly, the Christian brings out a powerful point that leaves the atheist with his mouth open. He has no comeback. He is defeated. It’s all over. He has lost the argument about the existence of God.

So, what's going on here? Are you keeping this incredibly powerful unbeatable argument of yours tucked away in the basement, swaddled in bubble wrap, so you can take it out in case really important company comes?

He is going to fortify his hedonistic lifestyle with the zeal of a Pharisee, and he will do it with every intellectual argument he can find.

Ah, yes, my hedonistic lifestyle. School, work, volunteering at the animal shelter - sometimes I even cut really loose and read a cheesy novel or (gasp!) watch a TV show. And golly, I think I must have drank an entire can of beer not less than two weeks ago!

Besides that, he has incredible sex with his gorgeous girlfriend, any time he wants.

Okay, well, there is that.

dede said...

great post. out-of-town family is coming in this weekend to visit so i had better get my fishing gear ready.

i have to admit that my brain "hurts" from reading all the "psychobabble rap" that accompany the atheists/evolutionist arguments.

plus it seems their common habit-- THEY HARDLY STAY ON TOPIC.

too scared i guess.

a joyful RESURRECTION DAY for u and yours.

Michael said...

Not only is it WOTM, it is wonderfully how Jesus taught and caught.

Thank you Ray.

Will keep you in my prayers.

siobhanJ. said...

Grand stuff Ray, just back from a fishing trip with stylish tackle, some of us fishermen and women dressed as roman soliders a few marys, a cross and a Jesus, went up and down the main street here in Margaret River, Australia. Lots of fish biting, and people were so kind, even through drinks at us to keep us cool.. great fishing day tomorrow, Easter Sunday here,- have to go,- must check my tackle box!!
Siobhan

verandoug said...

In verbal conversations, my husband is so good at deflecting these arguments and bringing the subject right back to sin and offending a Holy God. I have watched him witness and I sit back and marvel at his ability to quickly swiftly use the Law to get back to the point at hand and you are right, it gets to the heart of the matter.

The real bottom line truth is that the church is teaching people that God overlooks sin and that the difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is that the Christian is forgiven and the non-Christian is not. What a lie!

I think the early NT church had to deal with this same problem though even though people were coming to God through repentance. People like to sin because there's pleasure in sin for a season.

When the flesh is that appeased, you are right, it is difficult to get a person to see why things can't be that way. I am convinced it requires grace, meaning power from God to bring them to repentance. Repentance is a gift.

Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

a) you can't have sin in your life if you are calling people to repentance
b) you have to have the fruit of the Spirit
c) steer clear of topics that gender strifes
d) teach with patience and be gentleness; whatever you do, don't let people get you angry even if you don't know the answer to the question they are throwing in your direction.
e) Pray that God would grant them repentance
f) So that they can recover themselves out of the snare of the enemy that is holding them in bondage to sin through deception.

One of our biggest things that we are working through as a couple is me being on the same page as Doug when we are together witnessing. I seem to not be able to not want to answer one of these "questions." :::sigh:::: He is thinking about a few short sentences that will convince them of their need and that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. In an unplanned spontaneous situation, if I interject something, it seems to be the wrong thing to say. I would really like to be able to share the Lord with people in person. See, I am much better at writing because I can go back and change things and realize that what I'm saying isn't coming across the way I want it to.

We had an unusual situation the other day with a Muslim woman. She was a person that we knew through a friend but had never really talked to that has converted. We didn't know that till that moment. We were in a business type situation and she just happened to be helping us. Her outfit was gorgeous with the headcovering covered with sequins and a linen suit that looked like it must have cost her $300 or more. Doug started to share the Lord with her. When I would try to share based on her feedback, Doug motioned me not to say anything. He told me later that it was because he was anticipating her response and knew what he wanted to say next. It bothers me that I am not aware of that because to me it makes me look dumb for trying. :-) When he told me why what I was going to say would have messed things up, it all made perfect sense. He was absolutely right. What is bothering me is that I absolutely positively don't see it at the time and I'm crushed that I am so eager to share but what I would share would be useless. Why can't I see that at the time though?

Vera

choco said...

Captain Howdy said, "Only, I don't follow your script. I follow mine."

So true. You bow the knee to no one.

Pride leads to destruction, and arrogance to downfall. (Proverbs 16:18)

Daniel said...

..
Atheists rust.
..

dale said...

"And he can easily find websites that give a stack of arguments that promise to justify godlessness. There he can arm himself with a mass of rabbit trails down which he can send the unsuspecting Christian."

Cute, that. He now refers to logic and reason as rabbit trails.
Nuff said on that.
That whole post is filled with that type of innuendo and fractured logic.

I work in an organization where I have several managers that report to me. These are quite "sensitive" positions and a bad decision could cost someone their life or create a situation that would be financially untenable.

It is just the kind of sophistry that Ray has written in this post that reinforces my resolve to NEVER hire a fundamentalist Christian in to one of those jobs.

You never know when they might forego logic and reason and appeal to some supernatural power for an answer and that would be very wrong.
Worse yet, they could justify a disaster by claiming it was the SP's fault.

So, Ray claims people just run to some website and robotically c/p stuff, while ignoring that some individuals have spent lifetimes studying the history of religion, etc.
Is Ray saying that you can only post something stictly from memory?

Does he and his cronies have the entire Bible memorized or do they copy and paste all those verses?
And when they c/p them do they pull out their bible and type them letter by letter or do they go to some website and c/p them en masse?

It is my opinion that anyone who develops a knack for sophistry the way these fundamentalists do, should not be trusted because that type of thinking will invariably carry over into other decision making processes.

This is dangerous thinking and that is why fundamentalist religion is waning.

Ray Comfort said...

"dale said...It is just the kind of sophistry that Ray has written in this post that reinforces my resolve to NEVER hire a fundamentalist Christian in to one of those jobs."

Dale...can you say the word "prejudice?"

dale said...

"he will do it with every intellectual argument he can find."

The mantra of the fundamentalists:

DOWN with Intellectualism!
Ignorance is bliss!

dale said...

Vera,
You said,
"When I would try to share based on her feedback, Doug motioned me not to say anything. He told me later that it was because he was anticipating her response and knew what he wanted to say next. It bothers me that I am not aware of that because to me it makes me look dumb for trying."

That is a sad commentary indeed. I understand it's probably difficult living with an overbearing mate that makes you look dumb. Doug definitely has issues he needs to work out.

erikloza said...

Ed Temptly,
You said:
"Ok, so we've engaged you in conversation, and you've gotten to the point where you ask if I'm a good person. Doesn't really matter what I say here (I'd probably say no). We get the whole understanding that I don't believe in your deity of choice, or the threat of punishment, but for the sake of the conversation, I'm willing to imagine such a scenario. You review the commandments with me, showing how even thoughts some what related to the listed offense are equivalent to full violation.

So, in this imaginary situation - I'm going to suffer eternally. That's nice. I like scary stories. Still don't believe it.

Now what?"

When you die, you go to Hell.

dale said...

Ray,
You said,
"Dale...can you say the word "prejudice?""

Prejudice- an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge.

I have sufficient grounds to exclude fundamentalist Christians from sensitive and critical positions because they cannot be counted on to make sound decisions.

You are living proof of that.

Have you ever been in the heat of battle Ray? And if you have not then you will not understand that when every person is being counted on to protect each others lives, and you look over and see your commander on his knees praying, he may be dealt with on the spot in a not-so-nice manner.

dale said...

Pastor Ray Mummert after the Dover Trial, "We've been attacked by the intelligent, educated segment of the culture."

Don't you just hate it when those intelligent educated people come around and you have to sit and watch your silly superstitions go up in the smoke of reason? Hmmmm?

yipeng said...

Hi Ray,

Would be interested in what you consider good apologetics.

Cheers,

Yipeng

Ray Comfort said...

"dale said... Ray, You said,
'Dale...can you say the word "prejudice?'

Prejudice- an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge.

I have sufficient grounds to exclude fundamentalist Christians from sensitive and critical positions because they cannot be counted on to make sound decisions.

You are living proof of that.

Have you ever been in the heat of battle Ray? And if you have not then you will not understand that when every person is being counted on to protect each others lives, and you look over and see your commander on his knees praying, he may be dealt with on the spot in a not-so-nice manner."

You have prejudged millions of people. No doubt you have the same attitude towards blacks and Jews. Prejudice is horrible Dale, in any form.

Laura said...

@ Erikloza -

When you die, you go to Hell.

This might be more convincing if you held a flashlight under your chin and made spooky noises. I guess it's kinda hard to do that over the internet, though.

@ Dale -

It is just the kind of sophistry that Ray has written in this post that reinforces my resolve to NEVER hire a fundamentalist Christian in to one of those jobs.

While you are generally a much-needed bastion of reason, Dale, I have to disagree with you on this one. My bleeding liberal heart insists that hiring should be done on the solely on the basis of qualifications and ability. If Bill in the next cubicle insists on saying grace every time before he eats and firmly believes that the earth is 6,000 years old, as long as he does his job and lets me do my job, that's no business of mine. Do I want to socialize with him after hours? Probably not, but then he probably doesn't want to socialize with me either, and that's fine: Bill was hired to do a job, not be my new best friend.

Of course, if Bill's fundamentalism interferes with his performance, then that's another story altogether. If he harasses his coworkers by telling them repeatedly and persistently that they are hellbound, if he discriminates against his non-Christian subordinates, or if he drives away prospective clients by witnessing to them after he pitches the company product . . . well, then you can kick him to the curb with my blessings.

Laura said...

No doubt you have the same attitude towards blacks and Jews. Prejudice is horrible Dale, in any form.

So tell me, Ray, how do you feel about Jews? I don't believe they're hellbound; do you?

Ray Comfort said...

"Laura said... No doubt you have the same attitude towards blacks and Jews. Prejudice is horrible Dale, in any form.

So tell me, Ray, how do you feel about Jews? I don't believe they're hellbound; do you?"

Laura...Good question. I will answer it in a post.

dale said...

Ray,

Your post:
""Laura said... No doubt you have the same attitude towards blacks and Jews. Prejudice is horrible Dale, in any form.

So tell me, Ray, how do you feel about Jews? I don't believe they're hellbound; do you?"


You tried to make it look like Laura said I was prejudiced. She did not. That was your statement.
And you conveniently ignore my statement where I show I am not prejudiced

You knew exactly what you are doing and I'm calling you out on it.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

dale said...

Laura,
You said,
"While you are generally a much-needed bastion of reason, Dale, I have to disagree with you on this one." [snip]....well, then you can kick him to the curb with my blessings."

I won't hire them for the same reason I won't hire someone that states they will cross their fingers if they get in a tough spot.

And once they are hired they can cause all the trouble they want because once they claim discrimination it is difficult to get rid of them.

Also, this is much more serious than "pitching a company product."

Finally, we have observed that fundamentalists consider themselves elite and don't make good team players. These jobs require much critical and rational thinkers and I do not consider fundamentalists rational thinkers.

Having said all that, I knew I would catch some flak from both camps on this, but, controversy is my middle name and I have a blank check for mayhem this morning!

Thanks for the well spoken admonishment!

choco said...

Dale said,

"I have sufficient grounds to exclude fundamentalist Christians from sensitive and critical positions because they cannot be counted on to make sound decisions.

You are living proof of that."

I'm an RN and have in nursing for nearly 33 years. I work in ICU. I'm a fundamentalist. I've been making life or death decisions for years. Some of the docs I work with are fundamentalists; they have been making life or death decisions for years--years!

There are, as you know, different definitions of prejudice. This is the one that fits you: "irrational dislike of somebody: an unfounded hatred, fear, or mistrust of a person or group, especially one of a particular religion, ethnicity, nationality, sexual preference, or social status."

Yea, I cut and pasted that definition, too.

dale said...

Ray,
You said,
"You have prejudged millions of people. No doubt you have the same attitude towards blacks and Jews. Prejudice is horrible Dale, in any form."

No I don't have the same attitude towards blacks and jews. I have blacks working for me. Haven't had any Jews apply for the job.
That is very wrong for you to claim that their is "no doubt" when you had no reason or evidence for saying that. That was totally disengenuous. You constantly try to demonize me. Even in your pictures you always show atheists with pointed teeth, faces contorted. You are the one holding the prejudice.

So, you aren't prejudiced by condeming me to your hell every single day. Nawwww!

Get real man.

henwli said...

"You have prejudged millions of people. No doubt you have the same attitude towards blacks and Jews. Prejudice is horrible Dale, in any form."

Comfort Food, demolishing irony meters since 2007.

Terry Burton said...

Dale,

I read your comments, and my Heart goes out to you. I sincerely mean that. I will pray for you and ask the Lord to give you a special blessing.

Christians are NOT your enemy. We care about your Eternal Soul.

The TRUE enemy is Satan, the World, and the Flesh. May I ask ...Where do you think you will go when you die ?

May God Bless you on Easter Sunday! In His Love, Terry

Ray Comfort said...

Sandy...you can't post URL's. I took it out and reposted it. God bless, Ray

Sandi said...
Hey Ray. I'm not sure if you are going to be posting again before Sunday, so I wanted to get this in.

This article is cut and pasted from my inbox. I receive the 'Question of the Week' from a web site in which anybody can...you guessed it... write in their questions!

I thought tomorrow being in celebration of our Lord's resurrection, it was appropriate. They do a great job of answering this question. Thanx!

"QUESTION: "Why should I believe in Christ’s resurrection?"

Answer: It is a fairly well-established fact that Jesus Christ was publicly executed in Judea in the 1st Century A.D., under Pontius Pilate, by means of crucifixion, at the behest of the Jewish Sanhedrin. The non-Christian historical accounts of Flavius Josephus, Cornelius Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Maimonides and even the Jewish Sanhedrin corroborate the early Christian eyewitness accounts of these important historical aspects of the death of Jesus Christ.

As for His resurrection, there are several lines of evidence which make for a compelling case. The late jurisprudential prodigy and international statesman Sir Lionel Luckhoo (of The Guinness Book of World Records fame for his unprecedented 245 consecutive defense murder trial acquittals) epitomized Christian enthusiasm and confidence in the strength of the case for the resurrection when he wrote, “I have spent more than 42 years as a defense trial lawyer appearing in many parts of the world and am still in active practice. I have been fortunate to secure a number of successes in jury trials and I say unequivocally the evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”

The secular community’s response to the same evidence has been predictably apathetic in accordance with their steadfast commitment to methodological naturalism. For those unfamiliar with the term, methodological naturalism is the human endeavor of explaining everything in terms of natural causes and natural causes only. If an alleged historical event defies natural explanation (e.g., a miraculous resurrection), secular scholars generally treat it with overwhelming skepticism, regardless of the evidence, no matter how favorable and compelling it may be.

In our view, such an unwavering allegiance to natural causes regardless of substantive evidence to the contrary is not conducive to an impartial (and therefore adequate) investigation of the evidence. We agree with Dr. Wernher von Braun and numerous others who still believe that forcing a popular philosophical predisposition upon the evidence hinders objectivity. Or in the words of Dr. von Braun, “To be forced to believe only one conclusion… would violate the very objectivity of science itself.”

Having said that, let us now examine the several lines of evidence which favor of the resurrection.

The First Line of Evidence for Christ's resurrection

To begin with, we have demonstrably sincere eyewitness testimony. Early Christian apologists cited hundreds of eyewitnesses, some of whom documented their own alleged experiences. Many of these eyewitnesses willfully and resolutely endured prolonged torture and death rather than repudiate their testimony. This fact attests to their sincerity, ruling out deception on their part. According to the historical record (The Book of Acts 4:1-17; Pliny’s Letters to Trajan X, 96, etc) most Christians could end their suffering simply by renouncing the faith. Instead, it seems that most opted to endure the suffering and proclaim Christ’s resurrection unto death.

Granted, while martyrdom is remarkable, it is not necessarily compelling. It does not validate a belief so much as it authenticates a believer (by demonstrating his or her sincerity in a tangible way). What makes the earliest Christian martyrs remarkable is that they knew whether or not what they were professing was true. They either saw Jesus Christ alive-and-well after His death or they did not. This is extraordinary. If it was all just a lie, why would so many perpetuate it given their circumstances? Why would they all knowingly cling to such an unprofitable lie in the face of persecution, imprisonment, torture, and death?

While the September 11, 2001, suicide hijackers undoubtedly believed what they professed (as evidenced by their willingness to die for it), they could not and did not know if it was true. They put their faith in traditions passed down to them over many generations. In contrast, the early Christian martyrs were the first generation. Either they saw what they claimed to see, or they did not.

Among the most illustrious of the professed eyewitnesses were the Apostles. They collectively underwent an undeniable change following the alleged post-resurrection appearances of Christ. Immediately following His crucifixion, they hid in fear for their lives. Following the resurrection they took to the streets, boldly proclaiming the resurrection despite intensifying persecution. What accounts for their sudden and dramatic change? It certainly was not financial gain. The Apostles gave up everything they had to preach the resurrection, including their lives.

The Second Line of Evidence for Christ's resurrection

A second line of evidence concerns the conversion of certain key skeptics, most notably Paul and James. Paul was of his own admission a violent persecutor of the early Church. After what he described as an encounter with the resurrected Christ, Paul underwent an immediate and drastic change from a vicious persecutor of the Church to one of its most prolific and selfless defenders. Like many early Christians, Paul suffered impoverishment, persecution, beatings, imprisonment, and execution for his steadfast commitment to Christ’s resurrection.

James was skeptical, though not as hostile as Paul. A purported post-resurrection encounter with Christ turned him into an inimitable believer, a leader of the Church in Jerusalem. We still have what scholars generally accept to be one of his letters to the early Church. Like Paul, James willingly suffered and died for his testimony, a fact which attests to the sincerity of his belief (see The Book of Acts and Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews XX, ix, 1).

The Third and Fourth Lines of Evidence for Christ's resurrection

A third line and fourth line of evidence concern enemy attestation to the empty tomb and the fact that faith in the resurrection took root in Jerusalem. Jesus was publicly executed and buried in Jerusalem. It would have been impossible for faith in His resurrection to take root in Jerusalem while His body was still in the tomb where the Sanhedrin could exhume it, put it on public display, and thereby expose the hoax. Instead, the Sanhedrin accused the disciples of stealing the body, apparently in an effort to explain its disappearance (and therefore an empty tomb). How do we explain the fact of the empty tomb? Here are the three most common explanations:

First, the disciples stole the body. If this were the case, they would have known the resurrection was a hoax. They would not therefore have been so willing to suffer and die for it. (See the first line of evidence concerning demonstrably sincere eyewitness testimony.) All of the professed eyewitnesses would have known that they hadn’t really seen Christ and were therefore lying. With so many conspirators, surely someone would have confessed, if not to end his own suffering then at least to end the suffering of his friends and family. The first generation of Christians were absolutely brutalized, especially following the conflagration in Rome in A.D. 64 (a fire which Nero allegedly ordered to make room for the expansion of his palace, but which he blamed on the Christians in Rome in an effort to exculpate himself). As the Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus recounted in his Annals of Imperial Rome (published just a generation after the fire):

“Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.” (Annals, XV, 44)

Nero illuminated his garden parties with Christians whom he burnt alive. Surely someone would have confessed the truth under the threat of such terrible pain. The fact is, however, we have no record of any early Christian denouncing the faith to end his suffering. Instead, we have multiple accounts of post-resurrection appearances and hundreds of eyewitnesses willing to suffer and die for it.

If the disciples didn’t steal the body, how else do we explain the empty tomb? Some have suggested that Christ faked His death and later escaped from the tomb. This is patently absurd. According to the eyewitness testimony, Christ was beaten, tortured, lacerated, and stabbed. He suffered internal damage, massive blood loss, asphyxiation, and a spear through His heart. There is no good reason to believe that Jesus Christ (or any other man for that matter) could survive such an ordeal, fake His death, sit in a tomb for three days and nights without medical attention, food or water, remove the massive stone which sealed His tomb, escape undetected (without leaving behind a trail of blood), convince hundreds of eyewitnesses that He was resurrected from the death and in good health, and then disappear without a trace. Such a notion is ridiculous.

The Fifth Line of Evidence for Christ's resurrection

Finally, a fifth line of evidence concerns a peculiarity of the eyewitness testimony. In all of the major resurrection narratives, women are credited as the first and primary eyewitnesses. This would be an odd invention since in both the ancient Jewish and Roman cultures women were severely disesteemed. Their testimony was regarded as insubstantial and dismissible. Given this fact, it is highly unlikely that any perpetrators of a hoax in 1st Century Judea would elect women to be their primary witnesses. Of all the male disciples who claimed to see Jesus resurrected, if they all were lying and the resurrection was a scam, why did they pick the most ill-perceived, distrusted witnesses they could find?

Dr. William Lane Craig explains, “When you understand the role of women in first-century Jewish society, what's really extraordinary is that this empty tomb story should feature women as the discoverers of the empty tomb in the first place. Women were on a very low rung of the social ladder in first-century Palestine. There are old rabbinical sayings that said, 'Let the words of Law be burned rather than delivered to women' and 'blessed is he whose children are male, but woe to him whose children are female.' Women's testimony was regarded as so worthless that they weren't even allowed to serve as legal witnesses in a Jewish court of Law. In light of this, it's absolutely remarkable that the chief witnesses to the empty tomb are these women... Any later legendary account would have certainly portrayed male disciples as discovering the tomb - Peter or John, for example. The fact that women are the first witnesses to the empty tomb is most plausibly explained by the reality that - like it or not - they were the discoverers of the empty tomb! This shows that the Gospel writers faithfully recorded what happened, even if it was embarrassing. This bespeaks the historicity of this tradition rather than its legendary status." (Dr. William Lane Craig, quoted by Lee Strobel, The Case For Christ, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1998, p. 293)

In Summary

These lines of evidence: the demonstrable sincerity of the eyewitnesses (and in the Apostles’ case, compelling, inexplicable change), the conversion and demonstrable sincerity of key antagonists- and skeptics-turned-martyrs, the fact of the empty tomb, enemy attestation to the empty tomb, the fact that all of this took place in Jerusalem where faith in the resurrection began and thrived, the testimony of the women, the significance of such testimony given the historical context; all of these strongly attest to the historicity of the resurrection. We encourage our readers to thoughtfully consider these evidences. What do they suggest to you? Having pondered them ourselves, we resolutely affirm Sir Lionel’s declaration:

“The evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.” "

In His Service,
Sandi Broyden

March 22, 2008 10:31 AM

Patte said...

Vera,
I just wanted to take a minute to say how much I enjoy your posts. You are refreshing in your honesty. I love that you brought up how repentance is a gift of God's grace. It's important for us to remember that.

We have had many people join us in witnessing over the years. I understand what you are talking about when you lament that your husband doesn't want you saying things because you "mess things up". I have experienced the frustration of having others come & 'interrupt the flow' in conversations & I am sure that I have done it myself. I hope that I can help you out with this. I'm sure that your husband means well when he is trying to steer you away from speaking. Perhaps there are times when your words would not help in getting to the heart of the matter. May I make a suggestion? Next time you go out witnessing you can try:
1) Make an agreement with your husband to prayerfully listen as he is talking to the person & only speak when Doug motions to you that he'd like to hear your thoughts.
2) Consider witnessing one-on-one on your own so that you have complete freedom to say whatever it is that comes into your mind.

The Holy Spirit can & will use you for His pleasure & purpose. You can have confidence that as you take time to really listen to the people you are witnessing to that God will give you responses & scriptures to help you understand the person & to help the person understand truth of the gospel.

God made women & men different in fundamental ways. I have raised three men & have a super-high testosterone husband, so I've had 30 years to study the way men are. Men have testosterone which causes them to be more direct & not so prone to the emotional response.I realize that I am generalizing, but men are better at getting down to business. Men tend to use less words to say the same thing. I enjoy being with men. I find men incredibly interesting & I admire the way God made them. We women, however, are nurturers & responders. We want to know people. We desire relationship. We empathize. Women use a lot more affirmations during conversations. We say things like "Yes, I see", "Mmm", we nod our heads, etc. There is nothing inherently WRONG with it ... it's the way God made us. But, it is different than men & it can be irritating to them & vice versa.

So, the next time you go out to share the gospel why not try introducing yourself to women to witness on your own & just be yourself?

Let us know how things go ... I'll be praying for you : )

dale said...

Sandi,
You said,
"methodological naturalism is the human endeavor of explaining everything in terms of natural causes and natural causes only. If an alleged historical event defies natural explanation (e.g., a miraculous resurrection), secular scholars generally treat it with overwhelming skepticism, regardless of the evidence, no matter how favorable and compelling it may be."

And how else do you think they would deal with a claim that defies natural explanation?

Mental hospitals are full of people who's beliefs deny natural explanation.

By the way, none of the evidence you list would be admitted in a court of law.

Pvblivs said...

Sandi:

     No, we don't have demonstrably sincere eyewitness testimony. Nice try, though. We have "eyewitnesses" from a position of safety speaking to encourage their followers. We have writers making unverifiable claims that some people were executed for not renouncing Jesus. We do have accounts from the Roman government of people who were executed at a later date for their belief in the resurrection. But these came too late to be eyewitnesses.

weemaryanne said...
This post has been removed by the author.
Rob Penn said...

Ray, I don't have to tell you what I believe about half gospels and stuch. You've had to read all my comments about that, so I'll just skip that step.

However, I do have to say that you are getting closer. Your admition that "Fleeing from wrath doesn't produce contrition... the Cross produces contrition.", is getting closer to what I view is the full Gospel.

Let me tell you a bit of my story, Ray. I used to be one of those "False Converts" you talk about. When my parents got divourced, my mom took my sister and I to live with her parents. Her father is a pastor in the American Baptist Association. Her brouther-in-law is, also. I lived with them for a pretty good while, hearing about God and the Gospel. I heard about how no one has ever kept the law and led a sinless life (except Jesus), and that we will all go to Hell without God's help. God did send us a way out, though. If we follow Jesus, and ask him into our hearts, then we will go to Heaven when we die.

I didn't want to go to Hell. I didn't want to be in a place that didn't have God, because God is the producer of all that is really important and good. I didn't want to burn, and I didn't want to be without God.

So, I prayed a prayer. I told people, and was baptized. When I got older and learned more about God, I started getting more involved with the church, and I started to change my lifestyle to fit the Bible. I was nice, honest (mostly), smart, polite-just an all around "good guy."

But I didn't know God.

Oh, I knew everything there was to know about God. At least, I certainly knew more than the average joe my age. but I didn't know him.

When I got to college, something happened. Something kindled and I started really looking for something. The campus ministry I was going to (and still am going to) really helped me out with this. I started being discipled. I had a mentor. I started growing just a little bit, until I came to a realization:

Christianity isn't just about a future in Heaven or Hell, it's also about now in life or death!

Sure, Heaven is going to rock my socks even when I'm bare-foot, but that's not the only focus I should be having and it certainly isn't the main focus I should be having.

It's like the two women who Jesus went to visit. One spent all her time making her house suitable for the man she knew to be very important, and the other spent her time hanging out with him.

Jesus wants a relationship.

I definitely gave him service. I did all the things I was supposed to, but I didn't really start to grow or go anywhere with God until I started a relationship with him.

I perfectly fit your definition of a "false convert" while I was still under the thing you define as the "true gospel."

It wasn't until I got the other half of the true gospel that I really started to get an image of God's chosen name for me.

Rob Penn said...

@ dale:
There are plenty of statistics that say that black perople have a greater showing in crime than white people. But you still hire black people to work for you.

It must be because you believe, as I do, that just because a person is black doesn't mean that they are criminals. You judge them on other things.

Why do you believe that all Fundamental Christians are the way you say they are?

Now, I'm not a fundamental Christian. I've grown out of that, and I believe that the practices of many fundamentalists make my job as a Christian a lot harder. But I can't say that I've ever had a problem outside of doctrine and methods of evangelism.

I've never met a Fundamental Christian who was as eletist as you say they are. The majority of the ones that I know are fully capable of reason, which makes me even sadder at some of the things they believe.

All in all, the majority of Fundamental Christians I've met while growing up in the house of an ABA preacher, with my uncle being an ABA preacher, my best friend of all time being the son of an SBC preacher who himself is headed into the ministry, do not fit the mold you seem to have placed them in.

So, why do you place all Fundy christians into this mold? Is it because of your personal experience?

If so, why do you rely on your personal experience more than the affore mentioned statistics? Isn't that sort of personal opinion over studies the kind of thing you've spoken out against so many times on this blogg?

Dale, I admire your inteligence and the clarity with which you speak (type?), but I don't see how you can justify this as anything other than predjudice based on religious beliefs.

captain howdy said...

dede said--

i have to admit that my brain "hurts" from reading all the "psychobabble rap" that accompany the atheists/evolutionist arguments.

Yeah; Christians get a lot of think-aches.

captain howdy said...

captain howdy said--

I know you said Christians only, but would you like to play the part of the fisher and I play the mark--I mean fish? Only, I don't follow your script. I follow mine.

I'm still waiting, Big Boy. You gonna fish or cut bait?

russell & susie robinson said...

Ray, excellent. I think is the best way I've heard you explain the "how to" way of the master yet.Great word pictures to help us remember "how to" fish.

1believer said...

dale said, "This is dangerous thinking and that is why fundamentalist religion is waning."

1believer says: Was that an opinion or have you checked your facts? I believe you are wrong - Christianity is GROWING. 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity ... New churches are being "planted" in Europe, and here in America.

hainerman said...

dale,
I have a hard time believing you do anything but read these post so you can argue with them. Seems like a full time job for you. I think that the amount of time you spend on here you should be better at it. You tried to answer my question, but you need to do better. You gave me no proof. I will say some of what you say is good, but you really need to think about what you are saying.

Enjoy Resurrection Sunday.

1believer said...

dale said, "So, you aren't prejudiced by condeming me to your hell every single day. Nawwww!"

1believer says: neither Ray nor any of the other Christians are condemning you to hell. You yourself are condemning yourself to hell by making the wrong choice and not following God and His Commandments. God doesn't want anyone to go to hell. He originally created it for Satan.
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

dale said...

Captain Howdy,
Yeah, I can't believe that comment made it through Ray's censorship!

When I saw you repeat it, It was funnier than when I wrote it!

dale said...

Hainerman,
You said,
"I have a hard time believing you do anything but read these post so you can argue with them. Seems like a full time job for you."

Nope.
For your edification, I have been a voracious reader since I was very young. I read three newspapers a day, go through at least 15 different blogsites, maintain my own blogsite, read technical manuals, books, (non-fiction) magazines and newslatters of all descriptions. My wife is a song writer and composer and I help her produce her stuff and we have produced a couple music videos on our own.

I also have a job that I invest about 46 hours a week at. I attend schoolboard meetings, township meetings, take mentally challenged teens bowling once a week and serve spaghetti dinners at the Salvation Army once a month (yeah, go figure.)

I'll sometimes have eight to ten browsers open at any one time, and I will post twenty to thirty comments in an hour or so.
So don't worry, I won't starve to death because of the time I spend here.

While you say I am argumentative, that may be your perception but like nature abhors a vacuum, I abhor flawed logic and outright lies. So, I write.

I responded to the same decaration, "evolution says we came from nothing," at least seventeen scillion times here in the last month and the next comment will say, "evolution says we come from nothing,"

The sheer ignorance of anything having to do with science is absolutely appalling. In fact, I have never seen this much ignorance of science concentrated in one place outside of Ken Ham's site and the Institute of Creation Research (who have never done any research.)

Having said all that, it has been very interesting, however extremely boring and you are wearing me down. So I have decided to accept Jes-----er, I mean I probably won't continue to bother you much.

Now, I know you will say that knowledge will not get me to heaven, but it's not heaven that I am bound for. I am bound to do all the good I can and take care of all the people that fall into my shere of influence. I find they appreciate it and each incremental act of kindness and helpfulness fills my life with much satisfaction.

At least a couple times a month I will have one of the kids (other than my own) call me to talk about the times our group took them here or there and how they remember some advice I gave them. A man is never so tall as he is when he stoops down to help a child.

Don't lay the pride guilt trip on me. I am not proud. I am priveledged to be able to have the health and the time to share with others. And, by the way, you asked the question.
Respectfully submitted, /d

Rob Penn said...

"i have to admit that my brain "hurts" from reading all the "psychobabble rap" that accompany the atheists/evolutionist arguments.

Yeah; Christians get a lot of think-aches. "

I could understand how one would find evolutionbabble in talks of psychology...

But, really, how much psychobabble could possibly make it's way into talks of evolution? Unless you talk about how evolution changed behaviors and inteligence and such...

I just started my psychology major last semester. So, I really want to know. ^_^

Rob Penn said...

@ captain howdy:
"I know you said Christians only, but would you like to play the part of the fisher and I play the mark--I mean fish? Only, I don't follow your script. I follow mine.

I'm still waiting, Big Boy. You gonna fish or cut bait?"

If fishing is what you do to catch fish...
And evangelism is "fishing for men,"

Wouldn't that make evangelism "manning?"

Yeah, bad joke, I know. I just couldn't pass up the opportunity. ^_^

Mike and Lizette's Travels and Thoughts said...

Good blog Ray, and yes dale is very "prejudice", prejudice in the wrong way of course, yet everyone is to some level. Christians foundationally have to be, not by how their feelings(sand) are based, but by the Word of God (rock).

dale said...

To All That Were Outraged Over My "Will not Hire A Fundamentalist" Comment.

Rob Penn, a non-fundamentalist asked, "Why do you believe that all Fundamental Christians are the way you say they are?.....Dale, I admire your inteligence and the clarity with which you speak (type?), but I don't see how you can justify this as anything other than predjudice based on religious beliefs."


That sums up the beating I took from Laura, Terry Burton,Ray, and especially to Choco.

Now, if you look back you will see that I left some obvious clues by saying that first, "I expected flak even from the non-Christians" and second, "I have a blank check for mayhem this morning."

Now, we all know that Ray lies to make up stories which I will refer to as his "parables," or fables to show a point. I decided to do the same thing. I do regret it because It has become obvious that none of you got the irony and that is because you don't know me that well. Had you payed attention to more of my comments on the earlier threads, you may have got it, but hey, even my wife claims my sense of cynicism, as humor, is a bit much at times.
I will remind you that I have said on two occasions that there were many of you here that I thought would be good people to "work with."

So, I apologize for coming off as a prejudiced bigot.

And if any of you need a job, I have connections at the local McDonalds. *****Kidding!****

Lastly, the question that is begging.

Say I am an accountant. Would Ray hire me to do the books for his ministry? Absolutely not!

Gotcha.

Mike and Lizette's Travels and Thoughts said...

Prejudice is horrible Dale, in any form.

If what I posted before this goes against this feel free to delete my previous post. I do apologize if I said wrong.

dale said...

Captain Howdy,

The funniest part is that it seems that you are the only one that "got it."

Best chuckle of the day!

****dale, laughing at his own jokes again****

dale said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
Stefano said...

Thank you Ray for all that you do. God bless.

dale said...

Mike and Liz,
I cannot agree with you more!
Truer words were never spoken.

Garret said...

Laura
"And golly, I think I must have drank an entire can of beer not less than two weeks ago!"
LAURA! tsk tsk tsk. Cans? Everyone knows bottled beer has better flavor- cans, I mean really.

dtdye said...

ed temptly said... "Ok, so we've engaged you in conversation, and you've gotten to the point where you ask if I'm a good person. Doesn't really matter what I say here (I'd probably say no). We get the whole understanding that I don't believe in your deity of choice, or the threat of punishment, but for the sake of the conversation, I'm willing to imagine such a scenario. You review the commandments with me, showing how even thoughts some what related to the listed offense are equivalent to full violation.

So, in this imaginary situation - I'm going to suffer eternally. That's nice. I like scary stories. Still don't believe it.

Now what?"
Well, Ed, Ray will no longer have the guilt of your blood on his hands and if your eyes meet with his on judgment day, you'll be asking "why, oh, why was I such a fool?"

dtdye said...

dale, some of the greatest generals in war times were fundamentalist Christians such as George Washington. Moses and Caleb did pretty well too. So, what were you saying about fundamentalist Christians not being able to make a sound decision?

choco said...

Dale said,

"Say I am an accountant. Would Ray hire me to do the books for his ministry? Absolutely not!"

He might hire you, but after 8 hours a day of you ranting and raving against all Christians, you probably would have to leave. You probably wouldn't have done any work anyway.

Ray Comfort said...

Dale....I removed one small sentence. :)

dale said...
dale does not refer to himself in the third person very often, but dale wonders why Ray even allows any dissenting opinions here.

There seems to be an increasing number of you who would have me banned and, in effect, silenced.

Actually, I think it very noble that Ray allows dissenting posts.

All we have to do is Capitalize a couple words and watch the cussing.

I commend Ray for sponsoring this open format. He is a rare bit on this issue! Luv ya man.....

But why?
Most cultists prefer to keep a closed community, bereft of outside opinion.

Is Ray on to something? Could it be that open and honest communiction is best?

Ray has his detractors though. And not just us cranky ol' non-theists that drop by to check out the inanity he perpetuates.

A simple search will show that there are several ministries out there that are stating that Ray is posting a False Gospel.

They are presenting darnded good evidence that Ray is a False Convert...OH MY!!!

But, you can ignore them because, and I am a bit confused here.. but from the short snippet I read, it has something to do with Calvinism.

Gotta go!
/d

TERRY said...

Touche ! Choco!! I totally agree.

"but after 8 hours a day of you ranting and raving against all Christians, you probably would have to leave."

That put a SMILE on my face!

Dale, I will ask ONCE more, Where do you Think you will go when you die ? Just lay in the grave and wait for a BIG BANG to come along ?

Just trying to Understand the Atheist way of thinking. :)

Mike and Lizette's Travels and Thoughts said...

dale said: Mike and Liz,
I cannot agree with you more!
Truer words were never spoken.

I'm glad you agree with my first post in that your prejudice is based on feelings (i.e. foundationally on sand)look up Luke 6:48-49. But if you are agreeing with the second that is not for you to answer it was for Ray, in if what I said was wrong for him to delete it.

captain howdy said...

dtdye said--

dale, some of the greatest generals in war times were fundamentalist Christians such as George Washington.

Well, Geo. Washington was certainly not a Christian fundamentalist, I don't believe. I've actually read somewhere that the man had a thing about even entering a church.

captain howdy said...

rob penn said--

"i have to admit that my brain "hurts" from reading all the "psychobabble rap" that accompany the atheists/evolutionist arguments.

Yeah; Christians get a lot of think-aches. "

I could understand how one would find evolutionbabble in talks of psychology...

But, really, how much psychobabble could possibly make it's way into talks of evolution? Unless you talk about how evolution changed behaviors and inteligence and such...

I just started my psychology major last semester. So, I really want to know. ^_^


Actually, if you want to delve into the evolution of psychology, systems of morality, etc. I can direct you to a pretty good podcast. Subscribe to the Science Magazine podcast; look for the 16 February 2008 episode. All free.

Happy Easter!

Charles said...

I'm still waiting for the amazing, irrefutable argument for God's existance that leaves all non-Christians slack-jawed and speechless. Or is the non-Christian staring in disbelief for some other reason, perhaps?

verandoug said...

Dale,
I can't speak for everyone on the list, but I have a lot of Bible memorized. If you read the epistles in any other way than a total letter, you will come out with a perverted point of view.

Christians are supposed to exemplify good character in practical ways. I have said this before but will say it again that God works supernaturally naturally. When He has worked on my behalf, several unexpected natural happenings ocurred to solve the problem. So when you say that we are looking for something to happen, it shouldn't ever include a neglect of personal responsibility. And yes, I could provide several admonitions in Scripture to point that God is not pleased when we act in any other way.

Doug's a great husband. :-) He pretty much gives me free reign over all that he has.
Vera

verandoug said...

PS Dale, you would have to know us better to know that my dear husband is not mean. Typically, in these situations you have an extremely limited amount of time. Doug is just flat out superior at keeping the person on topic. I am oblivious. I understand afterward but usually not at the time. It really is me, not him.

Vera

verandoug said...

dale,
That's all sweet and wonderful except it's against the law. So much for common sense et al. Oh and I'm sure that you would be the first to cry foul if a Christian educator refused to hire a homosexual or fornicator.

In case you Christians out there didn't read between the lines, if a potential employer ever asks you the question, "What do you do when you find yourself in a tough situation?" For heaven's sake don't say, "Pray." :-)
Vera

verandoug said...

Thank you, Patte
I appreciate your kind words and good advice.

Doug encourages me to share. My problem is those insidious rabbit trails. I am a teacher, which as one of my friends so aptly said once is a prophet with details. I can't tell you how difficult it is for me to get sidetracked when something that I think is a deception is shared and I want to "explain" the truth. :-)

Thanks again!
Vera

dale said...

Terry,
OK, OK!

You asked:
"Dale, I will ask ONCE more, Where do you Think you will go when you die ?"

My post life experience will be idntical to my pre life experience.

dale said...

DTDYE,
Washingtone was not a fundamentalist and Moses and Caleb are fictitious character.

dale said...

Mike and Liz,

I shall post your comment in it's entirety:
"Good blog Ray, and yes dale is very "prejudice", prejudice in the wrong way of course, yet everyone is to some level. Christians foundationally have to be, not by how their feelings(sand) are based, but by the Word of God (rock)."

I darn near fell out of my chair on reading this!

So, you finally admit you are prejudiced!

Thank you! Of course I knew it all along and now you have proven what I've been trying to prove when I started the brouhaha with the "Will Not Hire a Christian" comment.

You people are probably the most prejudiced anywhere and you even admit it so shame on you for criticizing me.

Amanda said...

"There seems to be an increasing number of you who would have me banned and, in effect, silenced."

I'm not one of them. I appreciate your various, off-topic, thought-provoking commentaries.

"You people are probably the most prejudiced anywhere and you even admit it so shame on you for criticizing me."

That is quite a blanket statement. Who are "you people"? All Christians? The ones on this blog?

Irukandji said...

In case you Christians out there didn't read between the lines, if a potential employer ever asks you the question, "What do you do when you find yourself in a tough situation?" For heaven's sake don't say, "Pray."

Tell me the truth. Let's say that while interviewing a prospective employee for a demanding position, you asked him what he would do in a specific "tough situation" on the job, and he answered "Pray."

Unlike a sizable segment of the general population, you might be favorably impressed with this answer. But surely even you would expect some sort of follow-up to that response - a concrete, this-worldly plan of action. Something along the lines of ". . . and then I'd carefully review the original documents and consult with the department responsible for their production . . . " or whatnot.

If, when prompted, he just said "Well, it would depend on the answer I got when I prayed" and left it at that - well, I assume (and correct me if I'm wrong) that he'd have pretty much eliminated himself from the running.

Matthew Wooller said...

so Ray, what is this argument that leaves atheists humbled and speechless - and why have you never used it before?

Or are you - yet again - making things up?

Well?

dale said...

Amanda,
You said,
"That is quite a blanket statement. Who are "you people"? All Christians? The ones on this blog?"

OK, forget the generalization. I am referring...to....You.

Rob Penn said...

"so Ray, what is this argument that leaves atheists humbled and speechless - and why have you never used it before?

Or are you - yet again - making things up?

Well?"

These questions are just silly.
Where did ray say "The argument that leaves atheists humbled and speechless?"

Ray gave a hypothetical situation, with two people specific tho this hypothetical situation, and a conversation specific to this hypothetical situation, and an argument specific to this hypothetical situation.

Personally, I would have avoided a hypothetical situation all together, but this isn't my Blogg. It's Ray's. That being said, those are some pretty bad attempts at doing nothing more than Getting under Ray's skin. I can't imagine how something so obviously aimed at nothing more than blatant irritation could be succesfull.

I only call it out as such, because I assume that every one asking this or similar questions has actually read the post, and are familiar with a term that I was unfamiliar with until I came to this blogg; "Quote Mining."

Well, I suppose quote mining isn't so accurate as "Misquote," but either way I'm assuming that you've done so on purpose and not as a result of lack of attention to detail or lack of intelligence. I've watched you all talk for WAY too long to think that.

I know it's hard to read my tone of voice into bland texts, but that seriously wasn't sarcasm. That was all honesty.

Mike and Lizette's Travels and Thoughts said...

Dale said: Thank you! Of course I knew it all along and now you have proven what I've been trying to prove when I started the brouhaha with the "Will Not Hire a Christian" comment.

You people are probably the most prejudiced anywhere and you even admit it so shame on you for criticizing me.


I figured my words would be twisted to justify your own.

On another note you would be violating the civil rights act alone by denying the hiring of someone based on them being Christian.

The critique of you still stands, the way I see it, may that change.

choco said...

To Dale,

You said to Amanda,

"Amanda,
You said,
"That is quite a blanket statement. Who are "you people"? All Christians? The ones on this blog?"

OK, forget the generalization. I am referring...to....You."

Is that part of the good things you're doing in this life? I bet your employees love ya. Hey pizza face, get this work done. Mule nose, did you finish the study? Who gave you those ears, Dumbo? Love your pants, Harold, did ya wash your truck with them this morning? Hey, fats, bring more coffee so I can write about those low IQ'd, prejudiced Christians on Ray's blog.

Me, Dale? Ha, I'm not prejudiced. I love everybody. I even go to the Salvation Army and serve spaghetti. You know, here you are you poor, stupid jerk. Hurry up, and get moving I gotta smash those Christians again.

Condemning the innocent or letting the wicked go---both are hateful to the LORD. (Proverbs 17:15)

Dale you are condemning the innocent.

dtdye said...

dale, if I were to say you are a fictitious character from a cartoon (chip and dale rescue rangers), it doesn't make it true. For you to say Moses and Caleb were fictitious is pretty ridiculous as well. And I don't know who "Washingtone" is, but George Washington was a faithful Christian, and don't tell me he was just a deist. Abraham Lincoln was also a faithful Christian. There have been several fundamental (true) Christian captains of nuclear submarines that have to make vital decisions as well. I've worked for at least one that I can think of, and heard of at least one other. Have a nice day.

Matthew Wooller said...

@Rob Penn - you said "Ray gave a hypothetical situation, with two people specific tho this hypothetical situation, and a conversation specific to this hypothetical situation, and an argument specific to this hypothetical situation."

I think you are asking me why I threw out the question regarding the hypothetical constructed in Comforts post. From what I can see, and I may be wrong - but I think you are accusing me of being a little churlish in presenting my question...

Let me tell you why I posted the question... From day one on the this blog, I have wanted to take Comfort to task on his 'proof' for God. On many occasions Comfort has told us that he has the proof, that he will present the proof, that the proof will be forthcoming - THAT THERE IS PROOF. That proof has NEVER been presented, never been forthcoming... In short, when it comes to the proof that Comfort claims he has - he is all talk. All style, no substance - a claim that could be laid at the door of an awful lot of WOTM product. There is no diving for the truth, no delving in to pull out the proof - because that which is being peddled is so shallow and so cursory.

So, as you see - when Ray posts YET AGAIN that he has the ability to slay the atheist in his tracks with definitive proof - and singularly FAILS, even in a hypothetical where he controls ALL the variables of the scenario...

It is yet more bluster - yet more bluff. Comfort can no more "put up or shut up" than he can stop falsifying stories, events, words, reactions, scenarios and happenings. The fact that others seem wont to turn a blind eye to that is all the more stultifying.

Rob Penn said...

@ dale:
There are plenty of statistics that say that black perople have a greater showing in crime than white people. But you still hire black people to work for you.

It must be because you believe, as I do, that just because a person is black doesn't mean that they are criminals. You judge them on other things.

Why do you believe that all Fundamental Christians are the way you say they are?

Now, I'm not a fundamental Christian. I've grown out of that, and I believe that the practices of many fundamentalists make my job as a Christian a lot harder. But I can't say that I've ever had a problem outside of doctrine and methods of evangelism.

I've never met a Fundamental Christian who was as eletist as you say they are. The majority of the ones that I know are fully capable of reason, which makes me even sadder at some of the things they believe.

All in all, the majority of Fundamental Christians I've met while growing up in the house of an ABA preacher, with my uncle being an ABA preacher, my best friend of all time being the son of an SBC preacher who himself is headed into the ministry, do not fit the mold you seem to have placed them in.

So, why do you place all Fundy christians into this mold? Is it because of your personal experience?

If so, why do you rely on your personal experience more than the affore mentioned statistics? Isn't that sort of personal opinion over studies the kind of thing you've spoken out against so many times on this blogg?

Dale, I admire your inteligence and the clarity with which you speak (type?), but I don't see how you can justify this as anything other than predjudice based on religious beliefs.

scmike said...

dale,

""...Moses and Caleb are fictitious character.""

That's what they said about King David and Caiaphas too. It's never smart to state an opinion as fact. God Bless.

Amanda said...

Dale, wow, thanks. I'm flattered you thought of me.

dale said...

Choco,
You couldn't be any further from the truth.

Nice try.

scmike said...

dale,

""So, I apologize for coming off as a prejudiced bigot.""

I sincerely appreciate and accept your apology. Kudos to you for retracting the statement you made earlier about Christians.

What you have just done is called repentance---you listened to the voice of your conscience, which told you that prejudice is wrong, and you apologized for it.

Often, people will stifle or ignore the voice of their conscience rather than obey it, but I pray that you'll continue to give heed to this voice in every area of your life, and allow it to bring you to repentance toward God.

Dale, I don't know you, and you don't know me---chances are, we'll never even meet---but just know that I care about you and I am praying earnestly for you here in South Carolina. God Bless.

verandoug said...

If, when prompted, he just said "Well, it would depend on the answer I got when I prayed" and left it at that - well, I assume (and correct me if I'm wrong) that he'd have pretty much eliminated himself from the running.

If you read the book of 1 Peter, you will see that Peter gave the Christians of his day a practical live-in-the-natural-and-listen-to-the-people-in- authority-over-you kind of way to live. I only tell you that because so many people are either taught incorrectly as to what it means to be a Christian or are misinformed as in this case as to what a real Christian would do in a tough situation.

I will give you my take on it. I was an NICU nurse. So if you said in an interview, "What would you do if the baby had an apnea episode?" I would probably tell you that the first thing I would do is make sure he was having a problem (ie are the leads connected) while at the same time gently try to wake him up and checking to make sure he has a patent airway. If that didn't work and he continued to have more and more bradycardia, I would start bagging him and ask the nearest medical personnel to call a code and get the resident and/or the physician on call. I would get the cart as quickly as possible probably getting the respiratory therapist that was there to assist. I would make sure the child's IV is patent. And what I probably wouldn't tell you is that I would ask God under my breath to please save this child. :-) I can multitask with a two second prayer. However, my first responsibility is to do what those in charge are expecting me to do and to be responsible as I can for the life of that child doing what protocol requires. And that my friend, should be the heart of a Christian. We who are true believers believe in and are led to respect and listen to those in authority. We are ethical in that sense and are not slack in our work. We work hard to make other people and the company we work for successful.

My son worked for a local department type store. He was told the first day that under no circumstance could he share his faith with anyone. This was a part of their orientation. However, the young ladies at that store continuously harassed my son with the most vulgar language imaginable. My son never went beyond the bounds of those in authority. Although, he did ask the managers to please ask these young ladies to stop harassing him and they did. They eventually learned to respect him. Some that did this to him were eventually fired for other reasons. Had the tables been turned, my son would have been fired on the spot. But the point is that my son did do and respect what those in authority told him to do.

About 25 + years ago, I was taking care of a newborn that was born without a brain. He had only a brain stem. The parents had abandoned the baby. He couldn't even swallow. So they put in a gastrointestinal tube but did not tighten the sphincter between the esophagus and the stomach so that the milk was refluxing in through the nose and the baby was aspirating milk. I brought this to the attention of those in charge and they felt that this was good and would "help things along." I had a big problem with that. And that is where those without a standard of ethics and me would part company. You can call it whatever you want, but I am not going to have that on my conscience or personal record because I know who would take the fall if it ever came to light. So what would I do in that tough situation? Go up the chain of command, which is what I did. I also discerned which person in authority would be the most likely to agree with me. It worked and that person fixed the problem immediately. Why? Because I know that those in authority are motivated to do what's right to protect their reputation and position. Not to mention, God works through authority.

Bottom line - it is God's will for a Christian to do the best job they possibly can for the people that they are working for following through on their instructions to the best of their ability until it becomes a matter of principle.

Vera

rufus said...

Vera:

The baby born without a brain; how long did it survive? By the phrase "helping things along" I assume you mean helping the baby to die. If I'm wrong, please correct me. If you could have, would have had that baby continue to live, grow up, live a normal life span, without a brain? And do you believe that those kinds of things ultimately happen because of the "sin" of two people who supposedly lived thousands of years ago? Thank you.

dale said...

Choco, Amanda, et al,

Once again, I am sorry I opened up the Won't-hire-a-fundamentalist-christian can of worms.

It was a sneaky and underhanded trick to try to show that you guys are prejudiced against non-theists and, in fact, at least one person did admit it.

Now, seeing the strife that my actions caused, I apologize.

I will try to be a kinder, gentler dale from now on. In spite of everything else I have to remember that you are still part of the human species.

Thanks in advance for your forgiveness.

dale said...

SCMike,
You said,
"Dale, I don't know you, and you don't know me---chances are, we'll never even meet---but just know that I care about you and I am praying earnestly for you here in South Carolina. God Bless."

I'm a little down on my luck just now. Perhaps you could wire me a hundred bucks.

verandoug said...

The baby born without a brain; how long did it survive?

Not too long. I can't remember exactly but it wasn't that long.

By the phrase "helping things along" I assume you mean helping the baby to die.

Yes, the premise is that the baby was destined to die anyway.

If you could have, would have had that baby continue to live, grow up, live a normal life span, without a brain?

This is my own personal opinion but....I think modern medicine "intervenes" way too much. I am not sure that the surgery was necessary in the first place. I think in the case of a person that you know is going to die, you keep them comfortable and you do what you can to help them without heroics. Every time the milk would come up, the baby would fight for breath. It was not nice. You have to do something to show kindness. But no, you don't get all heroic and do a lot of things that you could do to keep that child alive like intubate etc.

And do you believe that those kinds of things ultimately happen because of the "sin" of two people who supposedly lived thousands of years ago? Thank you.

The body of death is a result of sin. We will all die one day because of the consequence of sin. Sometimes, sickness or chromosomal anomalies can be the result of the parent's sin or the grandparent's. However, the man born blind was told by Jesus that it was neither his parent's sin nor his sin that caused the problem but for the glory of God. The son of Jeroboam died because God saw some good in him. Jacob's thigh was effected when He grabbed hold of the Lord and refused to let go until He blessed him. (Genesis 32) The atheists in the group are going to love this but at times Jesus' healed through deliverance. Not all sickness is then the result of overt sin, no. Sometimes, for whatever reason, God ordains it that way. People with down's syndrome seem to be the most loving people. It is hard to suggest that this is the "result of sin." I do believe that some sickness is directly related to sin. A child born with fetal alcohol syndrome is born that way because of his parent's sin. A child born addicted to crack is also suffering because of his parent's sin. I saw one child who was conceived after an abortion that had many problems. I think that women are not aware of the effects something like that has on their reproductive system. Yet, the overall reason that there is death is sin. Death and sin are absolutely linked but not necessary things that go wrong.

It is not the kind of question that can be answered never/always. :-) Unfortunately, there are only two extremes. You have the AMA that discounts the possibility of sin as a contributing factor to illness and the church that seems to grasp hold of extremes as well instead of seeking the Lord and doing what the Bible said to do which was to call for the elders and confess and repent of sin. I mean I can think of a few times where I was truly stumped as to what was wrong until we prayed. Once was when my daughter contracted a skin problem after Hurricane Andrew. The first doctor said scabies. My poor daughter bout went through the ceiling when we gave her the prescribed bath. Then it was impetigo. Then it was a virus. Then we prayed after she was covered with it. I forget why we went to this doctor but we called a dermatologist on a Saturday and he very graciously came in to see her and quickly said it was poison ivy. Sure enough..... Within a day, it was all gone.

Vera

Pvblivs said...

Choco:

     "Me, Dale? Ha, I'm not prejudiced. I love everybody. I even go to the Salvation Army and serve spaghetti. You know, here you are you poor, stupid jerk. Hurry up, and get moving I gotta smash those Christians again."
     You went on a tirade in which you prejudged Dale and followed it up with a claim that you are not prejudiced.

rufus said...

Vera:

Thank you for your thoughts.

Terry Burton said...

@dale, Do you need HELP with the Bushy Tree? let me know. I will give you some pointers on web page design. BTW, Are you old enough to be on this blog ? I don't see an age. Were you really in battle ? Iraq ? PLEASE Advise.
I served in Army & Navy.

God Bless! Praying for you Brother! Its Not too late to Repent of your Sins (like I did ) accept Jesus Christ as your Lord, Master, and Savior. You never know when your Number will come up. Its too late then. Your lost.

Terry Burton said...

dale said: "I will try to be a kinder, gentler dale from now on. In spite of everything else I have to remember that you are still part of the human species.

Thanks in advance for your forgiveness."

Brother, you are a BIG man inside. You have demonstrated it once again. I am not being sarcastic.

Humbling yourself and realizing your need to be forgiven. We are ernestly praying for you on this site. Kirk Cameron came over from Atheism. You can do it as well.

I cried like a baby when I accepted the Lord. He lifted that burden from me. I sinned so much.

Ignore your peer group of Atheists. Think for yourself. You have a Spirit and a Soul. It will not disappear when you die. We all must Stand before our Creator on Judgement Day. I don't want to see you go to hell. Come to Jesus. I'm praying for you, so are a lot of other Christians.

Bruce said...

Dale,
You certainly think highly of your position, and how you would keep the fundies from ruining you sensitive area of expertise. Be advised, I happen to be a “fundie”, I am also in a critical job field. I am ex-military and was in a sensitive area of expertise, highly trained, greatly counted on for my level headedness. Now I am a Captain, Paramedic, SWAT operator, SWAT Medic, Hazardous Materials Tech, Disaster Collapse Medic Swift water rescue Tech, and Firefighter, I am also a college instructor, and have an extensive educational and professional background. For you to so quickly discount someone because of their religious belief shows just how poor a supervisor you are. I have worked with a few non believers who performed their jobs in the most professional manner. I believe that I am a better boss, team member, teacher, and over all person because of my Christian belief, and my relationship with Christ. You appear to be a closed minded, prejudicial individual that needs to get over your high opinion of yourself. I don’t normally answer anyone in this blog, since it rarely brings any closure to the statements, but you stand out with these ridiculous statements.

scmike said...

dale,

""I'm a little down on my luck just now. Perhaps you could wire me a hundred bucks.""

Perhaps you could give me a job?? God Bless.