“Let me try and understand this. According to you, Jesus DID say that it's impossible for a rich man to enter heaven. Then down in the very same post you describe a rich man who did what Jesus said is impossible. Now explain to me again how there are no internal contradictions in the Bible?”
There is no contradiction. This is what the Bible says:
"Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, 'How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!' And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, 'Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.' And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, 'Who then can be saved?' But Jesus looked at them and said, 'With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.'” (Mark 10:23-27)
We are told that the disciples were “astonished” at what He said. So it seems that Jesus was talking about a literal camel and a literal needle--something truly impossible. But then Jesus added that with God nothing is impossible. That means that He can change the money-loving heart of a rich man, if He so desires.
The fact is, it’s “impossible” for anyone to enter the Kingdom of God without the help of God. No amount of riches can buy your way in. The Bible says that there are “none” who seek after God (see Romans 3:10-12). We hate God without cause. His name is used as a cuss word, and some even do the unthinkable--they deny that He even exists, which is extremely foolish in the face of this incredible creation. So, it takes what is called “grace” to draw us to Him. He softens the hardened heart, opens the closed mind, and changes our wrong direction. He then opens our blind eyes and gives us light so that we can understand the gospel and be saved. This is described in detail in 2 Corinthians 4:3-6. God did this with me, and He can do it with you--if you are willing. Amazing grace.
Friday, May 23, 2008
No Contradictions?
49 comments:
Great post Ray!
You are truely a gift from God.
Now if only the many atheist will open their eyes and see the truth...with God all things are possible!
Amen! His Grace truly is amazing.
rusty said..."Now if only the many atheist will open their eyes and see the truth..."
Let us pray that God opens their eyes, for only He give site to the blind.
Since there are no contradictions in the Bible, please feel free to tell me how Judas died ?
Iago said...
Since there are no contradictions in the Bible, please feel free to tell me how Judas died ?
If you have 5 minutes read the answer in it's entirety and in context, if you only have 2 minutes scroll down to the asterisks (*)
Taken from Grace to You web site by John MacArthur
shortened version
I remember one writer wrote Judas actually died by exploding. What happened was he became so vile on the inside that maggots filled his body and as they multiplied and multiplied and multiplied he was going through town one day in a wagon and he blew up all over the town. There are all kinds of really bizarre things that were written about Judas.
One, however, need not embellish the Scripture. It's very clear that those are not the testimony of the inspired Word of God. They can all be set aside. It doesn't do us any good to say the fanciful things and no matter how much we would despise the man, how much we want to make him appear to be a man of ultimate evil, it does no good to embellish the truth. The truth is enough without adding anything to it.
His name is the legendary byword for betrayal and nobody on the face of the earth names their child Judas. There are 40 verses in the New Testament in which there's a reference to the betrayal of our Lord and each of them there is some implication of the incredible sin of Judas. Judas is always painted as a willful sinner, always painted as one who chose his path of iniquity. He's never painted as some kind of a victim of destiny, victim of sovereign choice by God for which he had absolutely no control and to which he made no contribution...not at all. He is loaded with culpability in Scripture.
Judas came of his own volition, his own choice, of his own decision to accomplish the things that were in his own wretched, proud, greedy ambition. But at the same time he, as far as he was concerned, was functioning completely on his own mind's desire, God was at work effecting the fulfillment of prophecy through him. This is a great illustration. We cannot understand all of the supernatural way in which this works. But we can know that it does, that men do what they do, but it all works within the framework of God and His purpose. And in the end, the man is culpable for his own choices, he is guilty for his own sins, and he is damned for his own rejection. And yet, the purposes of God come to pass.
I think that the message of repentance was offered repeatedly right in Judas' face. And while it was melting the wax in the other's lives, it was hardening the clay in his because he was so evil, so wicked, so ambitious, so proud, so money hungry.
So this is a tragic man and I think Jesus reached out to him in tenderness, love and affection. Never exposed him. Showed him affection when He gave him the sop at the last supper. I think Jesus preached to him, preached to him, preached to him, preached to him right in his face and his heart just got harder and harder and harder. No wonder...no wonder Jesus said he is a son of perdition. What describes him most is his utter lostness.
And I would warn you, if you come and you hear the preaching continually, continually of the truth and you reject embracing that truth, you are in a Judas path. And if you don't melt, you will harden. Better that you get out of here and don't come back, than to harden under the truth.
Judas is so tragic. And I want you to understand his culpability. And I also want you to understand that Jesus reached out and spoke to him and preached to him and directed His words at him, as well as His love and His affection at him. And that to me is like the universal gospel offer, that increases his culpability and defines his unbelief as obstinate. And he is guilty and yet God in His amazing, incredible providence and power fit that man's obstinate unbelief into the plan to fulfill the Scripture so that no one could ever say that things went wrong in Jesus' life and oops, this happened. This was planned from the start.
He didn't seek the forgiveness of God, he didn't seek the mercy of God. He didn't seek deliverance from Satan. He thought, "I could pacify my conscience if I just give the money back." His sin was unbearable and that's what hell is. In some ways, hell doesn't change the sinner, it just crystallizes into permanency what he already is. He regretted it. He felt bad about it. And so his unforgiving heart rather than crying out for true repentance, cried out for vengeance on himself, as it often does. His despair was so profound that he himself demanded vengeance on himself and he went away and hanged himself. Many people kill themselves under the screams of conscience. Frantic, confused, guilty...this is the grief of a madman whose lost control.
Acts 1 in verse 16, Peter is speaking, talks about Judas. At the end of verse 16, "It was Judas who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus." Go down to verse 18...well, verse 27, "He was counted among us and received his portion in this ministry...he was one of us, this Judas." And then verse 18, "Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness." Now remember back in Matthew that when Judas went into the temple and they wouldn't take his money, he threw it on the floor, they picked it up and scripture says in Matthew they bought a field from a potter, they turned that field into a cemetery for poor people. And that's what verse 18 means. "This man acquired a field." It wasn't that Judas bought the field, it was that the money that was his was used to purchase a field. That was the price of his wickedness.
***************************
But then it says about his death, "Falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out." Now some people have suggested that this is a contradiction because we just read a very clear testimony of Matthew chapter 27 that Judas had in fact gone out and hanged himself, and that is exactly what it says in Matthew 27 and that is precisely what happened. It follows on to say, "The chief priests took the pieces of silver, they said we can't put it in the temple treasure because it's blood money. They had a meeting, they took the money, they bought the potter's field for a burial place for strangers, for this reason the field is called 'Field of Blood' to this very day. That which was spoken by the prophets concerning thirty pieces of silver and the use of the money has come to pass."
They had the money, they bought the field. As far as the account of Matthew goes, that's where it ends. What we have here is an additional note. Judas was such a tragic figure that he couldn't even kill himself the way he wanted to. What you do to find the truth about this is to eliminate the thought of a contradiction and realize that either the rope broke or the branch broke. Judas attempted to hang himself, putting himself out over some precipice, was inept at that. It's not hard to imagine that he somehow made an arrangement by which he could swing out and hang himself only to find that he broke the branch or the rope and plunged to the depths below where his body burst open and his bowels gushed out.
That's the last thing ever said about Judas. What an unbelievable tragedy. Amazing tragedy. So the price of betrayal, well he betrayed the most significant man who ever lived and the money he got ended up making a burial place for the most insignificant people who lived, the poor.
Judas was the world's greatest example of lost opportunity. He stood in the fairest surroundings the world has ever presented and he was a damned man, in spite of spending his time in the presence of God.
Judas is the world's greatest illustration of how far the love of money will go in becoming the root of all kinds of evil. The love of money can be so great that you would sell the Son of God.
Judas is also the greatest lesson of forebearing patient love as we see the Lord reaching out even at the last to say..."Friend."
Judas is the greatest example of the deceitfulness and fruitlessness of hypocrisy. He is the John 15 branch with no fruit, cut off, thrown into the fire. And so good at it that even the eleven couldn't tell. He faked it, but in the end that son of perdition died and went to his own place and the place he's in is the severest of hell's torments because he was exposed to the greatest light.
Don't be a hypocrite, coming and not believing and being hardened is a Judas-kind of hypocrisy. Don't be content with an outward association without Christ in the heart. That is the unimaginable magnitude of a Judas sin that results in the severest eternal judgment. The heathen world could never produce a Judas, he can only appear in the bright light of Christianity. That kind of person can only be produced close to Christ. And so, the severest punishments of hell are reserved for those who never believed but associated with Christ. And the tragedy of his life lies in the possibility of his success.
Ray, I want your opinion. Should I bother to continue to post articles? I mean do you think people who ask question really want thorough explinations, or do you suppose they are just looking for trite, superficial nuances? I value your opinion because I've discerned that you are well grounded in scripture.
Atheists need not apply.
Iago said...
Since there are no contradictions in the Bible, please feel free to tell me how Judas died?
Hanged himself. Afterward, his body "burst open" in the very field which, ironically, he indirectly purchased with the betrayal money.
How will you die, Iago? Hopefully, it will be "in Christ" with all your accounts settled with God.
Craig
Mr. Comfort, I'm sure you've been asked this many times, but humor me: Could God create a boulder so heavy that he himself could not lift?
AMAZING GRACE !!! Thank you Lord!
"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me....
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.
T'was Grace that taught...
my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear...
the hour I first believed.
Through many dangers, toils and snares...
we have already come.
T'was Grace that brought us safe thus far...
and Grace will lead us home.
The Lord has promised good to me...
His word my hope secures.
He will my shield and portion be...
as long as life endures.
When we've been here ten thousand years...
bright shining as the sun.
We've no less days to sing God's praise...
then when we've first begun.
"Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me....
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now, I see.
My dear Iago, Greetings and Salutations in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ!
I hope and pray you are having a wonderful Memorial Day Weekend!
Please allow me to address your inquiry IRT: Judas and his betrayal
As you know, this was the greatest betrayal in history. He betrayed the Son of Man with a kiss and delivered Him up for crucifixion.
Luke 22:47-48
"47 And while He was still speaking, behold, a multitude; and he who was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them and drew near to Jesus to kiss Him.
48 But Jesus said to him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”
Please remember he was one of the twelve disciples. Trusted and loved by Jesus Christ.
He chose to sell Him out for 30 pieces of silver and betray his Lord. God in the flesh!
He had a choice and he chose Satan's ways.
By doing this deed, he was cast out of God's camp into Satan's.
Evil rewards evil deed with torment.
Judas took the coward's way out and comitted suicide, and now he is in great torment in Hell.
Amen.....God did the same with me also. I pray he does it for YOU!
Ray--
Jesus told the rich man to give all his money away if he wanted to go to heaven. He explained himself to his disciples that it's just as possible for a rich man to go to heaven as it would be for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle--meaning it's not possible. He then says that nothing is impossible for God. If God can let the rich into heaven sometimes, then it's not impossible for the rich to go to heaven. It's either impossible or it isn't.
Oh, and BTW--If you cite one of my comments, could you at least credit me? --Thanks.
iago: I've heard that explained. Evidently the place where Judas hung himself had trees with fragile branches overhanging rocks. The branch of the tree on which he tried to hang himself would not have supported a man's weight. He would have fallen on to the rocks which could have split open his stomach. Both accounts would be accurate.
Question for Ray: I was saved by the grace of God many years ago. The one thing I constantly struggle with is loving the lost. Their beliefs are so stupid it drives me nuts. God's ways seem so logical to me. Creation is so evident only a moron would deny it. How can you stand the constant rejection from fools? I know Christ was rejected by supposedly wise people but it does not make loving them any easier. Paul
Andrew Douglas said...
Mr. Comfort, I'm sure you've been asked this many times, but humor me: Could God create a boulder so heavy that he himself could not lift?
You know there are many things God cannot do.
He cannot lie.
He cannot Change.
He cannot sin.
He also cannot let anyone into heaven unless they are born again.
And he cannot do things that are self-contradictory.
He can't make a squared circle or a rock He can't lift.
Mattew Wooller said..."Ray, you are the latest in the long line (and I would love to think you may be one of the last) of people who are repackaging a series of ancient tales.
Repackaging these stories and selling 'training courses' on how to read them, repeat them... I can't fault you for making a living."
P.T. Barnum would be proud ;)
"Matthew Wooller said...
Ray, you are the latest in the long line (and I would love to think you may be one of the last) of people who are repackaging a series of ancient tales. Repackaging these stories and selling 'training courses' on how to read them, repeat them... I can't fault you for making a living. What does get my goat is the fact that you are repackaging these myths (and they ARE myths Ray) as if you are somehow an authority on them and that people can only achieve 'immortality' through your reversioning.
Now if someone is fool enough to believe that they can achieve immortality, then more fool them - but even the most cursory of study reveals what a bunch of huey you are spouting and selling as TRUTH.
Even the most cursory history lesson reveals that literal interpretation of the bible is a comparatively recent phenomenon. Your particular 'spin' on these ancient word of mouth stories is just another, and quite recently developed form of exegeses. To sell it, as you do, by claiming some sort of validity or authority through history - is wrong... Now, slap that on top of the fact that you are selling training courses about myths to the gullible - well Ray, you can see how you might come off as an opportunist..."
Matthew...and you are helping to facilitate it by being part of this blog.
Matthew Wooller where do you get your information regarding the Bible is a myth, Dawkins' "God Dillusion"? Talk Origins? etc...
Laughable!
Is that all you got?
KingHill said...
"iago: I've heard that explained. Evidently the place where Judas hung himself had trees with fragile branches overhanging rocks."
***dale, flipping through bible looking for the verse that explains that***
"The branch of the tree on which he tried to hang himself would not have supported a man's weight."
***dale, flipping, getting frustrated***
"He would have fallen on to the rocks which could have split open his stomach. Both accounts would be accurate."
***still flipping***
"Question for Ray: I was saved by the grace of God many years ago. The one thing I constantly struggle with is loving the lost. Their beliefs are so stupid it drives me nuts."
I thought when somebody was nuts, they probably wouldn't know it, like Ray, for example.
"God's ways seem so logical to me."
Genocide was a valid way to perpetuate the tribe's value system back in the first century.
"Creation is so evident only a moron would deny it."
And what is your evidence for this ignorant statement?
" How can you stand the constant rejection from fools?"
He loves us and we love him. remember Love the crackpot, but hate the crackpottery!
"I know Christ was rejected by supposedly wise people but it does not make loving them any easier. Paul"
Go ahead, hate a little bit. It'll make you feel better.
Terry,
You said,
"That saved a wretch like me...."
You definitely got one thing right. :>
@ Ex-Atheist:
God can't lie? How do you figure?
Irukandji said...
@ Ex-Atheist:
God can't lie? How do you figure?
Titus 1:2 ...in hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Ex-atheist:
Well, let's take a look at some of your claims.
"He cannot lie."
It seems to me he can, and does. (Or, more accurately, the people who speak for this fictitious charachter lie when doing so.) After all, you only have his assertion that he cannot lie.
"He cannot [c]hange."
Then he cannot act. All action requires some change -- from a "before" state to an "after" state.
"He cannot sin."
This claim would be more impressive if you didn't pull "it's not a sin when he does it."
"He also cannot let anyone into heaven unless they are born again."
You are confusing "cannot" with "will not." But, again, we are dealing with fictions.
Yeah, shiver! That's the spirit!
Atheists, cross your fingers and hope you get lucky! God might force you to become saved or He might just send you straight to hell and there's nothing you can ever do about it!
Let's play Russian Roulette!
@ex-atheist
Ok, but: "... with God all things are possible"
So, explain to me how that isn't a contradiction?
Also, God can't make a squared circle? I can! It's called a squircle. Look it up.
Matthew Wooller, you sound like a very angry and sad person. I probably don't need to tell you that living a life in which you are always angry and sad, is really not living at all.
You stated, "When you want to force your myth into MY life, that is where things go VERY awry...". Since when has Ray forced anything into anyone's life?
You also implied that you see God's word as myth because it has been presented to you that way by historians. Maybe you should read the actual Bible and look at it honestly in the context of your own life, instead of using someone else's ideas as a source for your beliefs.
Matthew Wooler to Ray:
Actually, I am hoping I might help others recognise you for what you really are.
Thank you, Matthew, for helping me recognise Ray for what he really is: an extremely patient man.
Craig
@ Ex-Atheist:
But what if God lied about never lying? How would you know?
regarding Judas from the King James Bible from Acts. chapter 1
16: Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17: For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18: Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
enquote.
This verse is not referring to some other man, it is clearly referring to Judas.
And this is from Matthew 27
3: Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4: Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5: And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
endquote
In Acts Judas is using the money to buy a field and then falling and bursting open. In Matthew he has cast the money back at the pharisees and left and hung himself.
Judas also in Matthew seems to have repented his crime of betrayal. Could it not have been a true repentence and expression of remorse?
Even if it was not did not God see that Judas would betray Christ ? God is omniscient afterall. Also God would have made sure that Judas did betray Christ since he is omnipotent. And since Judas did betray Christ so that He could die for all our sins, does not Judas deserve a place of honor rather than spite since without him Jesus would not have died on the cross and rose again?
Iago,
Thanks,
It's good to see someone that can readily use the bible, as written, to point out these descrepencies in the "inerrent" book.
I think the next thing we will see is the re-definition of the word "inerrent."
Irukandji said...
@ Ex-Atheist:
But what if God lied about never lying? How would you know?
Then the burden of proof is on the one who claims He's lied.
I’ve read His word – He never lied once.
I also know because God, by very definition, is sinless.
ex-Atheist,
God lied to Adam and Eve about what would happen if they ate the friut of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The snake incidentally was punished for telling eve the truth.
Please commence excuse making......now!
Judas does not deserve a place of honor, Jesus Christ said "you betray me with a kiss"
Yes, he committed suicide IRT betraying Christ. The scripture is correct in Matthew. You need to read a few more verses to see it was a fullfillment of prophecy from Jeremiah. Hundreds of years before.
Yes, he did try to get them to take the money back. No can do.
It was now "blood" money, so potter's field was bought. The ground became cursed.
The story in Acts is from the Apostle Paul, he is referring to prophecy from King David. Hundreds of years before.
When they cut him down from the tree ( hanging ) his bowels burst forth on the field. The same field that was bought with the "blood" money.
This was typical practice in those days. The heat ripened his body up.
The drop from the height did the rest.
"19 And it was known to all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Akeldama,
that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let
another take."
Iago said "Also God would have made sure that Judas did betray Christ since he is omnipotent."
No, God does not predetermine anything. He knows what will happen in the future, but he gives us freedom of choice. The Book of Life in heaven has the names of all of them that is saved. That is not predetermined, God knows who becomes saved.
Even Satan has seen those names, and he knows who to persecute.
Another Example: God knows that Iago will "cut" verses out part of the Bible and compare them to another part of the Bible in the hope he can disprove His Holy Word.
God does not predetermine you are an atheist, you made that choice.
You also choose to not believe in Jesus Christ, so therefore when Judgement Day comes you will be guilty on that, and your sins unless you depart from your wicked ways, open your heart to God, and confess your sins to Jesus Christ.
Your name may be in that Book of Life. Only God & Satan know.
I realize you don't like me, but I am concerned about your eternal soul. I don't want you to end up in Hell with Judas. I hope and pray you will allow God into your life, and pray about it. Don't let peer pressure keep you away from God and His Son.
My gut feeling is you will come to a understanding. It would explain the "digging" into His Word and your search for Truth. Those who search for the Truth will have it.
Here is the entire story in Matthew.
Matthew 27:1-10
1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me. "
Earnestly praying for you! Terry
Wow what concentrated babble:
Terry said :
No, God does not predetermine anything. He knows what will happen in the future, but he gives us freedom of choice. The Book of Life in heaven has the names of all of them that is saved. That is not predetermined, God knows who becomes saved.
endquote
That makes no sense whatsoever. He knows what is going to happen but we have freedom of choice. That is not logical or possible. Oh and I know you are going to come up with the old saw of 'With God all things are possible'
So again you fly ignorantly in the face of omnisicence, omnipotence and omnipresence.
And yes was waiting also for the apologetics to come out regarding Judas. So just tell me how does one fall headlong from a tree when you are hanged ,since that is what you infer. Headlong is falling headfirst.
Oh let me guess it is a poetic device, right ? And meant to be taken allegorically and not literally?
@ Iago, "So again you fly ignorantly in the face of omnisicence, omnipotence and omnipresence"
What I do understand is, there are so many things we do not understand about our universe.
Every time we send a new probe out into space we come back with new data. Theories we once thought were true, are now incorrect. We make up new theories to explain what we observe.
Even Einstein said there are other dimensions, and realms. Check your science on that. So, if there are other planes of existence, isn't it logical there are beings we can not see, touch, hear, or sense ... in those realms?
I see too much evidence of God to simply dismiss it. He is handy work is everywhere. Life it self is evidence of a Higher Being as work.
The Celtic Chimp said...
"ex-Atheist,
God lied to Adam and Eve about what would happen if they ate the friut of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The snake incidentally was punished for telling eve the truth.
Please commence excuse making......now!"
So God's the liar, satan the honest one... very twisted beliefs you have. Here’s some more you probably beleive; tails wags their dog, Up is down, Black is white, And you are a good person.
Ex-atheist:
"So God's the liar, satan the honest one... very twisted beliefs you have." [Emphasis added]
According to one fictional account in Genesis, the biblical deity lied and a serpent (the association with "Satan" (supposedly a proper name, like Joe or Tom) came later) told the truth. The biblical deity said they would die upon eating the fruit. The serpent said they would have their eyes opened to good and evil. They ate the fruit. They did not die at the time. And their eyes were opened.
Today's quote from the LW Goodmorning page fit this entry so well I had to post it here.
"The man that believes will obey; failure to obey is convincing proof that there is no true faith present. To attempt the impossible God must give faith or there will be none, and He gives faith to the obedient heart only" - A. W. Tozer
Ex-Atheist,
You said, to pvblivs,
"Here’s some more you probably beleive; tails wags their dog, Up is down, Black is white, And you are a good person."
Tsk, tsk, you haven broken every rule of logic in that statement.
First of all, by your use of the word "probably," you are stating a suppossition, and I seriously doubt if you have enough evidence to support those Ad homs.
You are supposing that Pvblivs believes that tails wag dogs. Well, if he did believe in what you say he believes, he would probably be a certified nutcase, which is how you are trying to portray him. That is not what we call, Playing Well With Each Other.
To add insult to your most ignorant comment you imply that Pvb is not a good person.
Do you not realize the game that you are playing?
ex-atheist,
Nice job ignoring the problem. Did God lie or not?, did the serpent speak the truth or not?
Also, these are your beliefs not mine. I am thankfully not dumb enough to think Genesis is an historical account.
I think I remember hearing before that the 'eye of the needle' Jesus was on about actually referred to a very small gate, through which it was difficult but not impossible to get a camel laden with goods. I think he just meant that it was more difficult for a rich man than a poor man to get into heaven.
Terry said
Every time we send a new probe out into space we come back with new data. Theories we once thought were true, are now incorrect. We make up new theories to explain what we observe.
endquote
OK then please provide examples. You must have something to back this up other than just assertions.
'Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.'
I only learned the other day that the words camel and rope can be written in exactly the same way in Aramaic. "A rope to pass through the eye of a needle" or "A camel to pass through the eye of a needle" ... which makes more sense?
Dale said...
”To add insult to your most ignorant comment you imply that Pvb is not a good person.
Do you not realize the game that you are playing?”
This isn't a game. As long as people believe the lie that they are good when God say's they're not, they're in trouble. I'll use some unsubtle sarcasm here and there to make a point (that can be a useful tool at times). For those who call God evil and satan good might think this is a game, but not me. I'm afraid for them.
Ex-atheist:
The point you seem to be making is that everyone should embrace the lie our your deity is going to get them. Your deity claims that he is always justified and everyone else is wicked -- especially when they criticize him. Do you know who else makes such claims? Spoiled brats -- that's who else makes such claims.
The Celtic Chimp said...
”Nice job ignoring the problem. Did God lie or not?, did the serpent speak the truth or not? Also, these are your beliefs not mine. I am thankfully not dumb enough to think Genesis is an historical account.”
Well, since you sound so sincere about knowing the truth and have such a polite attitude toward Christianity and express your thoughts with such kindness and respect it would be my pleasure to answer the question.
Nope, God did not lie.
In the Garden of Eden there was the “tree of knowledge of good and evil” AND the “tree of life”? But weren’t Adam and Eve already alive? Ahhhh… there’s something else going on here. They could have eaten of the “tree of life” (which they also could have even after they sinned against God) – but God stopped them. Why? Can you imagine living in a world without death, but still allow sin forever? That’s hell. These trees were spiritual realities. Their rebellion against God and eating the fruit of from the “tree of knowledge of good and evil” has to do with an immediate spiritual death, followed by eventual physical death. Death means "separation." Adam and Eve were immediately separated from themselves, each other and in their relationship with God. This is why they were ashamed, saw their nakedness (awareness of their own sin), they hid from God, blamed each other – Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed satan – both were basically blaming God. It’s all a part of death – it was the death of paradise.
And there is something else very important to consider. Adam and Eve used fig leaves to cover themselves (their own effort to fix the sin) – but God in that same day they eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, killed an innocent animal (first mention of any physical death, read Gen 3:21). This is a picture of salvation. God rejects their effort with the fig leaves but covers them with the skin of the animal He killed. The substitutionary death of another – of one innocent for the sin of Adam. God promised death would come that day and it did – spiritual death and then physical death but in an innocent animal so that Adam and Eve could have their sin covered. On top of all that, the poison of sin was in them and would lead to their own physical death – so on that day they were “dead” just like everyone born after them is. The Bible says that all in Adam are “dead” in trespasses and sins. Do you ever think about the fact that you’re a walking corpse just waiting to finally die?
As far as satans lies. “Ye shall not surely die: …your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.” Mixing 99% truth with 1% lie is really all a lie. It’s like rat poison – it’s mostly good food. Plus, the withholding of important information can also be a lie. Satan promised that they would be like “gods.” It’s true in the sense that we all want to run our own world, be our own boss, live our own lives apart from the true God – the lie is that it’s not worth living that way – we are not God, and that evil (sin) does lead to spiritual death first, physical death next, and finally - eternal death.
Keep in mind that the Bible is a spiritual book – and it’s very hard for the spiritually dead to understand it – but if there’s a slight chance as you read Genesis chapter 2 and 3 again that it makes sense then may the Lord continue to illuminate your heart and mind.
Blessings,
Keith
Ex-Atheist,
Do you see nothing wrong with the concept of scape-goating? The serpent said they would be like Gods in that they would have the knowledge of good and evil. Also, the perishing that God warned them of. Are you suggesting that they knew it meant some vauge spirit death (whatever than is)?
The serpent told them they would not die, it seemed fairly obvious to me that everyone involved had physical death in mind. It was a true statement.
Also, do you think there is anything wrong with the idea that Adam and Eve should be suddenly ashamed of just being naked. Is being naked evil?
@The Celtic Chimp
The Celtic Chimp said...
"Do you see nothing wrong with the concept of scape-goating? The serpent said they would be like Gods in that they would have the knowledge of good and evil."
That was satan’s half-truth lie. It was half-truth in that they could be like God running their own universe with their own will but at their own demise. The lie was that it wasn’t just the “knowledge” of good and evil but really the “experience” of evil - added to the experience of good they received from God. Adam and Eve rebelled against God and it wasn’t some substance in the fruit that changed them, it was their will and action that brought sin and death into the world.
”Also, the perishing that God warned them of. Are you suggesting that they knew it meant some vauge spirit death (whatever than is)?”
”(whatever that[sic] is)”
Are you asking about “spiritual death?” It’s hard to explain to a dead corpse what it’s like to physically be alive – they’re really not listening. The same is true with spiritual life. Why do you think the debates go in such endless circles on this blog? It’s because those born of the Spirit are trying to communicate spiritual truth to the spiritually dead – and unless God intervenes, a lot fall on deaf ears? But we preach the word none-the-less because God will open ears and hearts in His timing and will receive all the glory.
”The serpent told them they would not die, it seemed fairly obvious to me that everyone involved had physical death in mind. It was a true statement.”
If it was also physical death (which it doesn’t need to be – we don’t know the details of God’s full conversations with Adam – just what is revealed in Scripture) but I explained that God showed his grace by providing a substitute. When a Judge says today you must pay the fine – if someone else pays the fine for you – your debt has been paid, you’re free to go.
”Also, do you think there is anything wrong with the idea that Adam and Eve should be suddenly ashamed of just being naked. Is being naked evil?”
You miss what I wrote in parentheses (“awareness of their own sin”) – the nakedness of the soul, it is symbolized in their actions – they knew something was wrong but didn’t know what it was but they felt shame. What would happen if all your sins - ALL of them, every thought was shown to the whole world – all your friends and family? I’d bet you’d run and hide too (cover yourself up.) We see famous people cover their faces up all the time when they get arrested and the camera follows them out of a court house. And yeah – being naked is sinful most social contexts. If you’re not ashamed to be naked in certain places I’m a little worried.
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