“You might say the Bible predicts it before they happens, but the problem is that the predictions claimed to be correct are not pointed out until after they happen. The Bible predictions are vague enough that people aren't pointing out what and when it will happen, they take an event that has happened and adjust their interpretation to fit the event and claim the event is what the prediction said all along. Gods predictions are not alone, it is done with Nostradamus, horoscopes, and tarot cards predictions too.”
I once believed that Nostradamus was able to somewhat predict the future. However, after closely studying him and his so-called predictions I found that he stole his “prophecies” from the Bible (which he read in secret), revised them, and claimed them as his own. I even produced an award-winning documentary about this, and also wrote a book called Nostradamus, Attack on America.
He was able to plagiarize the prophecies of the Bible and get away with it because in those days the Roman Catholic church forbade the reading of the Scriptures. Nowadays, as in his day, anyone who is ignorant of the Bible’s prophecies will be impressed with the writings of Nostradamus. His "predictions," though, are incredibly generic (just as horoscopes and tarot cards are), and people can read into them any meaning they want to.
That isn’t true with biblical prophecies. They are extremely detailed and precise. Unlike other books, the Bible offers a multitude of specific predictions—some thousands of years in advance—that either have been literally fulfilled or point to a definite future time when they will come true. No other religion has specific, repeated, and unfailing fulfillment of predictions many years in advance of events over which the predictor had no control. The sacred writings of Buddhism, Islam, Confucius, etc., are all missing the element of proven prophecy. These kinds of predictions are unique to the Bible.
Only one who is omniscient can accurately predict details of events thousands of years in the future. Limited human beings know the future only if it is told to them by an omniscient Being. God provided this evidence for us so we would know that the Scriptures have a divine Author:
“For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done.” (Isaiah 46:9,10)
In addition, the Bible declares that prophets must be 100 percent accurate—no exceptions. If anyone claimed to be speaking for God and the prophesied event didn’t come to pass, he was proven to be a liar. The writings of Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are littered with false prophecies, so we know can whether they are written by men or by God.
The Bible’s sixty-six books, written between 1400 B.C. and A.D. 90, contain approximately 3,856 verses concerned with prophecy. For example, the Scriptures predicted the rise and fall of great empires like Greece and Rome (Daniel 2:39,40), and foretold the destruction of cities like Tyre and Sidon (Isaiah 23). Tyre’s demise is recorded by ancient historians, who tell how Alexander the Great lay siege to the city for seven months. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon had failed in a 13-year attempt to capture the seacoast city and completely destroy its inhabitants. During the siege of 573 B.C., much of the population of Tyre moved to its new island home half a mile from the land city. Here it remained surrounded by walls as high as 150 feet until judgment fell in 332 B.C. with the arrival of Alexander the Great. In the seven-month siege, he fulfilled the remainder of the prophecies (Zechariah 9:4; Ezekiel 26:12) concerning the city at sea by completely destroying Tyre, killing 8,000 of its inhabitants and selling 30,000 of its population into slavery. To reach the island, he scraped up the dust and rubble of the old land city of Tyre, just like the Bible predicted, and cast them into the sea, building a 200-foot-wide causeway out to the island.
Alexander’s death and the murder of his two sons were also foretold in the Scripture. Another startling prophecy was Jesus’ detailed prediction of Jerusalem’s destruction, and the further dispersion of Jews throughout the world, which is recorded in Luke 21. In A.D. 70, not only was Jerusalem destroyed by Titus, the future emperor of Rome, but another prediction of Jesus’ in Matthew 24:1,2 came to pass—the complete destruction of the temple of God.
Even more important are the many prophecies of a coming Messiah. God said He would send someone to redeem mankind from sin, and He wanted there to be no mistake about who that Person would be. For example, in the Book of Daniel, the Bible prophesied the coming of the one and only Jewish Messiah prior to the temple’s demise. The Old Testament prophets declared He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2) to a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12,13), die by crucifixion (Psalm 22), and be buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9). There was only one person who fits all of the messianic prophecies of the Old Testament: Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Mary. In all, there are over three hundred prophecies that tell of the ancestry, birth, life, ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus of Nazareth. All have been literally fulfilled to the smallest detail.
A fact often overlooked by critics is that, even if most biblical predictions could be explained naturally, the existence of just one real case of fulfilled prophecy is sufficient to establish the Bible’s supernatural origin. Over 25 percent of the entire Bible contains specific predictive prophecies that have been literally fulfilled. This is true of no other book in the world. And it is a sure sign of its divine origin.
(Adapted from How to Know God Exists--Bridge-Logos)
Wednesday, May 14, 2008
Nostradamus --a Liar and a Thief
Posted by
Ray Comfort
on
5/14/2008 03:46:00 AM

134 comments:
Well, if you know the future, then why didn't you warn the nation about the 9-11 attack before it happened?
Hmm, just found this little gem from Albert Einstein, written on january 3 1954 in a letter to the philosopher Eric Gutkind:
"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."
Personally i don't agree with him that the stories of the Bible are honorable, Esp. the Old testament is anything but honorable. I guess he was mainly talking about the New testament, most of that is fairly honorable.
I do hope this finally end the false claim that Einstein was a religious man. He wasn't, just believe it :-)
As for Nostradamus, I agree his claims are on par with horoscopes and the Bible. All long on vague predictions and very short on actual facts.
If someone can use the Bible (or any other method) to accurately predict the next mayor catastrophe (date, place, time and type of catastrophe), ahead of time, then I will listen humbly to whatever source predicted the event. Till then I'll just call then natural disasters.
Anyone impressed by Nostradumbass is a moron.
Do you realise Ray that God knowing the future completely eliminates any possiblity that free will exists?
Ray, the bible chapters you reference to claim that they give extremely specific prophecies are a joke. There's 4 main things in the 3 chapters you give.
1. Prediction of common things, which have always happened before and while Jesus supposedly lived, and not surprisingly, have continued to happen since then.
2. Prediction of things which have not actually come to pass. You'll claim they're still coming...
3. Prediction the Jews would go back to Israel. Hardly surprising since the western world helped create Israel due to that bible verse. Self forfilling prophecy is not prophecy.
4. "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Which has proved to be completely wrong with respect to my points 2 and 3.
Ray, if those are truly the best your bible has, it's embarrasing.
The prophecies in the chapters cited are all hopelessly vague and could apply at at any point in the last 2000 years. The only one that is specific is the destruction of the temple, but seeing as the gospels of Matthew and Luke were written after 70AD that one is rather suspect!
There is nothing in the Bible that couldn't have been written by an author living in the first century, or earlier.
Nowadays, as in his day, anyone who is ignorant of the Bible's prophecies will be impressed with the writings of Nostradamus.
I'm impressed with neither.
I just want to thank God for providing a way out. "Out of what," you might ask. God brought me out of sin. He saved me from the person I could have become, and that scares me. I know how my heart was and it was full of deceit and all kinds of lusts and wickedness. Some of you are in the same boat as I was, but I want to let you know that Christ will save you if you will repent of your sins and trust Him for your salvation.
The gift of salvation is the most wonderful prophecy that has ever been fulfilled, in my opinion.
I read the passages you referenced, and they aren't impressive. I can say that there will be earthquakes in the future, but not when and where. So what?
Like horoscopes, these comments are so vague and universal that they seem applicable to anyone, any time.
Ray,
I have heard the same thing in college. Nostradamus stole his predictions from the Bible and failed to give proper credit to God.
No doubt he will pay dearly on Judgement Day.
Jesus spoke of the judgement day when he walked among men. He said "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of' Judgement" Matthew 12:36.
"He that rejecteth me and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him. The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day" John 12:48.
Jesus spoke of a day of judgement on the last day. He said that two kinds of words were important: what we say and what he said.
We will be judged by his words and by our words. This means that we need to pay attention to what we say and to what he says in the Bible.
Praying for you Atheists!
God Bless! God Be With You!
Ray's logic, as best I can make it out:
1. We know the Bible is God's true word, because it has so many fulfilled prophecies;
2. Among the very best examples of such prophecy is Matthew 24, which predicts the second coming of Christ;
3. Although this hasn't taken place, we know it will take place just as prophecy describes it, because the Bible is God's true word;
4. Anybody who does not acknowledge the self-evident logical truth of this conclusion must be a proud, lust-crazed fool under demonic control.
Ray Comfort made a pretty interesting statement, which I will now show you all, is patently untrue and based on anti-Catholic propaganda, as well as his own personal ignorance.
Ray claimed "The reason he [Nostradamus] was able to plagiarize the prophecies of the Bible and get away with it was because he was a Roman Catholic, and in those days the Roman Catholic church forbade the reading of the Scriptures."
It's often claimed by Anti-Catholic bigots and others with anti-Catholic agendas that the Catholic Church banned people from reading the Bible, in order to keep them ignorant of the truth. Usually, they selectively interpret the text of the Council Of Trent, often times without actually reading or quoting a single word of it, to make this conclusion. The reality is that the Council of Trent, nor any other Catholic Church decree or document, ever forbid ordinary people from reading the Bible.
What the Catholic Church did do, and what the Council Of Trent did say, was that "UNAUTHORIZED VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE WERE FORBIDDEN". There were many sects at the time, with their own non-canonical Bibles. There were also sects running around at the time who interpreted the Scriptures in radically different ways than Catholics and modern day protestants do. For example, one sect interprets the Bible as promoting reincarnation. Another claimed that it says that men should have more than one wife. These, even modern day Evangelicals would find offensive, and the Church banned them from promoting their interpretations, and writing them. It "forbid" the reading of these bizarre interpretations of the Bible, by banning people from publishing their unauthorized interpretations of the Bible into books. Nowhere did the Church ever tell people it was forbidden to read the official canon, which the Catholic and Protestant Bibles are made of.
Anyone who makes this claim is either lying, or uncritically accepting the word of a liar as a fact. All you need to do is read the text of the Council of Trent, which can be found on Wikipedia and other sources.
Gee Ray I didn't see anything in the Bible that could remotely be construed as the rise of Napoleon or Adolf Hitler, the Victories of Germany early in WWII or the eventual defeat of Nazi Germany, or the death of Henry II of France. That is just a few supposed prophecies off the top of my head.
And of course no one knew what to make of them because they were so vague that only afterwards could they be puzzle fit to the situation.
Seems like more babble because Ray is trying to sell more books again.
Ray wrote - "I once believed that Nostradamus was able to somewhat predict the future. "
Really!?! You believed in this nonsense, too!
Boy, you sure are a gullible one...telemarketers must love you...
You claim that the Bible predicted that the Messiah would be born of a virgin, and as your evidence for that you use the Bible.
One end of the circle meets the other.
The Old Testament prophets declared He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2) to a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12,13), die by crucifixion (Psalm 22), and be buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9).
The trouble with this is that Jesus never says He was born of a virgin. It is recorded in some of the Gospels but then the people writing the story knew that He was the Messiah so she had to have been a virgin. It is the same sort of logic you apply to evolution. It was written in the bible, so it must be true.
Judas knew what he had to do. Jesus told them that the next day one of them was to betray him. Rumor has it he was so upset afterwards that he hanged himself.
If the bible said the Messiah had to be buried in a rich man's tomb, then where were his followers going to bury him? Should they disobey the bible?
These people knew the Messianic predictions.
The Book of Daniel was written and rewritten several times. It is in a mix of Aramaic and Hebrew. The oldest original copies of the book that we have come from Qumran. It is quite possible that it was written or redacted in about 150 BCE to describe the persecution of the Jews under Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
If the bible prophecies are so detailed and precise, then why are people forever using them to predict something which will happen tomorrow and which never does?
Although we shouldn't build our faith on fulfilled prophesies alone, this is an amazing proof of the Bible's reliability.
Keep up the good work Ray.
Daniel:
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
That's hardly specific. Also, no empire has ever ruled the whole earth.
What's funny is that the strained way that some people interpret Nostradamus to make his predictions look good is exactly the way that Ray is interpretting the Bible.
I'd just like to point out that my previous comment was made before Ray edited the post to remove all mention of the 3 chapters of the bible he referenced as being good prophecy. They were Mathew 24, Luke 21, and 2 Timothy 3.
I am not any more impressed by the current edited content of his posting.
There is not much I could add to the rational comments made by, well, the rationaists.
It's all Boulderdash!
It's amazing to me that people will spend so much of their time attacking a book they don't believe in, a God they hate, and a person they think is an idiot.
Here's some encouragement, Ray:
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Matthew 5:11-12
"Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets." Luke 6:26
Uh Ray : this is the whole passage from the beginning
For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar [a] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army. 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you. 9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. 11 The hoofs of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground. 12 They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea. 13 I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. 14 I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.
Endquote
Seems like the propehcy is off a bit since Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre. if the propehcy was accurate the city would have been taken, it was not.
And well Zecheriahh is just vague.
You also stated:
To reach the island, he scraped up the dust and rubble of the old land city of Tyre, just like the Bible predicted
endquote
Where ? Not in Zecheriah and not in Ezekial , Ezekial does say that the broken remains will be thrown into the sea, not that a causeway will be built out of rumble and that the beseigers would cross it.
As for Luke and Matthew and their predictions, ya know that hey were both attributed to have been written somewher around 80-90 AD. That would be after the fall of Jerusalem.
And the Gospels agreeing with what was written previously, yea of course they would.
And where is the death of Alexander predicted ? Is it as vague as a great leader from the north will die ? And citing the Book of Danile doesn't wash as there is a lot of dispute as to when it was really written.
And Ray since you said :
In addition, the Bible declares that prophets must be 100 percent accurate—no exceptions.
endquote
Well looks like not.
I mean it is easy to make prophecies that cannot be proved false. Take for example 'Capitalism will fail' said by Karl Marx. You can never prove it wrong because there is no date on it. This prophecy can stand for eternity and never be proved false.
So if you cannot prove a thing false how can you prove it true?
totally divorced from religiousity, but I don't see how anyone can put stock in all the Nostradamus stuff. it's the same people who are inclined to believe in UFOs and other goofball stuff that appears in tabloids and on 1 hour cable tv programs but is given little consideration elsewhere.
Ray's writing style is amazing. He gets caught in an obvious lie. So, he edits his post letting his followers think that he never said the lie.
I would like to draw on two major claims that Ray makes in this post (assuming he doesn't edit it.) He says that Nostradamus took his predictions from the bible. He further states that all of the predictions are vague. The logical implication is that the predictions of the bible are vague. Incidentally, I heard that Nostradamus's writing were only taken as prophecies after the fact.
Ray says "A fact often overlooked by critics is that, even if most biblical predictions could be explained naturally, the existence of just one real case of fulfilled prophecy is sufficient to establish the Bible’s supernatural origin."
Let's assume the prediction in question meets all the following criteria:
1. Is very precise, not vague at all.
2. Gives a good non-open-ended estimate of the date it will occur.
3. Doesn't refer to some type of thing which occurs frequently anyway (earthquakes, wars).
4. Is not possible that the event came about because of people reading prophecy and actively making it come about.
5. The prophecy is demonstrated to have been written before the event took place. (So we can take out the destruction of the temple here).
Even if all those things were true, it would take more than one case of fulfilled prophecy to establish the supernatural origin of the bible. You'd have to show why all the other prophecies haven't been fulfilled for a start.
And even if the fulfilled prophecy was so fantastic that it was of likely supernatural origin, it would only be that part which did. One sentence in a book being right doesn't validate the whole thing. Particularly when there's plenty in the remainder that's provably wrong and contradictory.
Since Ray plugged his own book, let me plug another;
Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillment? by Tim Callahan
Hahaha, Ray.
You even quote-mine the Bible to make these supposed prophecies. How Ray Comfort of you.
The Celtic Chimp said...
“Do you realise Ray that God knowing the future completely eliminates any possiblity that free will exists?”
Do you have free will?
Try to use that free will of yours and choose to live holy for one week. For one week do not sin? If you really think that your will is free then this should be possible.
"It's amazing to me that people will spend so much of their time attacking a book they don't believe in, a God they hate, and a person they think is an idiot."
"But He answered and said to them, “I tell you that if these should keep silent, the stones would immediately cry out." I love this verse. =) Even the very stones would praise our Lord and Savior! So of course the atheists know, deep in their hardened hearts, that there is power in the Name of our LORD Jesus Christ.
They don't like the light being shed on their darkness, and are fighting their conscience tooth and nail--hence why they are SO OBSESSED with an evangelist and his blog. Christians are stupid, crazy, lunatics! Illogical, arrogant, and without reason! Yet here they are amongst us, drawn DAILY (and sometimes multiple times a day!!) to the living water which is the Word of God.
As a former atheist, I understand first hand why you're all so obsessed with the things of God. =) I used to be obsessed with Christianity and harassing/mocking Christians when I was an atheist. God was calling me, and He's calling all of you, too. ;)
Anyway, I love this part of the blog entry: "Over 25 percent of the entire Bible contains specific predictive prophecies that have been literally fulfilled. THIS IS TRUE OF NO OTHER BOOK IN THE WORLD. And it is a sure sign of its divine origin." Love it!! Amen and praise God!! =)
Pvblivs said...
"Ray's writing style is amazing. He gets caught in an obvious lie. So, he edits his post letting his followers think that he never said the lie."
Good call. Very much in the Ministry of Truth style from Orwell's '1984'.
Celtic you said:
"Do you realise Ray that God knowing the future completely eliminates any possiblity that free will exists?"
My sister got engaged today, and I happened to know ahead of time that she would be engaged to the young man who proposed to her. Does that mean I made him propose or that he did not have free will? No, it simply means I had knowledge that he was going to. He still had the free will to make a choice, despite that I knew what was going to happen. Knowledge does not take away free will.
Somebody wrote: "They don't like the light being shed on their darkness, and are fighting their conscience tooth and nail--hence why they are SO OBSESSED with an evangelist and his blog...sometimes multiple times a day!!) to the living water which is the Word of God."
Speaking for myself, I come here during breaks in the work day, when I need a chuckle from Ray or one of the Terry Burtons.
Also, wemaryanne's posts are always sharp and insightful. It's nice having a like-minded person on this site...or even just a minded person.
emily said: "Christians are stupid, crazy, lunatics! Illogical, arrogant, and without reason!"
Well, there you have it. Another quiet admission on the part of a Christian that there is something wrong with her faith. I've just ... ahem ... extracted the gold nugget from the surrounding dirt.
@emily
Ya know why a bunch of us are drawn here is because you folks keep yapping away about non-relavent things on our boards dedicated to Science Fiction, Pc Gaming, Science, Computers etc etc. Bible fundamentalists keep trying to get Biblical theories taught in public school science course.
You don't want us here get your folks off of our boards and we will stay off of yours. Get you folks to quit pushing their agendas into governmental institutions and we will stay out of yours. How would you lie it to have an evolutionary biologist give a sermon at your church about mitochondrial DNA ( I am not a biologist so please pardon me if I have used the terms incorrectly. But you get the idea)
Religion has its place in church not the science classroom.
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions...
2 Peter 3:3
Knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
Wake up people and repent before it's to late.
Emily:
"It's amazing to me that people will spend so much of their time attacking a book they don't believe in, a God they hate, and a person they think is an idiot."
You're talking about the way Ray Comfort attacks evolution and Charles Darwin and the like, right? Good point.
Emily said...
"It's amazing to me that people will spend so much of their time attacking a book they don't believe in, a God they hate, and a person they think is an idiot."
Emily, it truly is amazing. They seem to have a need to "resurrect" God from a state of non-existence in order to attack Him. And they say that our teaching of the resurrection is incredible?
Craig
Ray,
Where is the contemporary evidence for Jesus?
Josephus was a forgery and not contemporary, so what else have you got?
From Steve (apparently new to all this): "Ray,
Where is the contemporary evidence for Jesus?
"Josephus was a forgery and not contemporary, so what else have you got?"
Well, no one ever claimed that Josephus was contemporary, but few people believe that he was a fraud.
And, anyway, we all have personal experience: Ray met Jesus Himself, and I did, too, before I even knew Ray Comfort existed. The Gospels merely help us to understand Him better, but their existence has no bearing on His.
How so? Because even if no one ever met Jesus, He still existed. The only reason you know about Him is that people did meet Him--then and now.
Joshua S. Black,
You said,
"Ray met Jesus Himself, and I did, too, before I even knew Ray Comfort existed."
I hope that you could elaborate on that. I have so wanted to hear of a meeting with Jesus.
And from the new book, The funniest things Christians Say, is from ol' Josh,
"How so? Because even if no one ever met Jesus, He still existed."
And that is the type of logic we are dealing with...
This bears repeating:
" Charles said...
emily said: "Christians are stupid, crazy, lunatics! Illogical, arrogant, and without reason!"
Well, there you have it. Another quiet admission on the part of a Christian that there is something wrong with her faith. I've just ... ahem ... extracted the gold nugget from the surrounding dirt."
Charles,
A freudian slip if I ever saw one.
@ ex-atheist--
The Celtic Chimp said...
“Do you realise Ray that God knowing the future completely eliminates any possiblity that free will exists?”
Do you have free will?
Try to use that free will of yours and choose to live holy for one week. For one week do not sin? If you really think that your will is free then this should be possible.
So we don't have free will after all? I think you just committed heresy.
I'm going to have to stop reading these comments and just read your blog, Ray... I don't have much hair left to pull out.
By the way, @ The guy who says God's knowing the future dismantles free will, what exactly are your basis' for this claim? I happen to know that athiests are going to continue posting on this blog. Does that necessarily mean I am going to use my power to force them to do so? No. The fact is, I don't need to force them to, because I know they want to. In the same way, God doesn't force people to get saved or not.
Nick said...
That's hardly specific. Also, no empire has ever ruled the whole earth.
Daniel names Media-Persia and Greece and says that after these kingdoms another one will rise that will not be conquered by another kingdom but will split up and those kingdoms will be split until the second coming. That's quite precise in my opinion...besides there is more.
Iago said...
Seems like the propehcy is off a bit since Nebuchadnezzar did not destroy Tyre. if the propehcy was accurate the city would have been taken, it was not.
And well Zecheriahh is just vague.
It names Nebuchadnezzar but it also says that many nations will come against Tyre. If Nebuchadnezzar would have fulfilled the prophecy you would have just said that it was written almost at the same time as it came to pass.
Iago said...
Where ? Not in Zecheriah and not in Ezekial , Ezekial does say that the broken remains will be thrown into the sea, not that a causeway will be built out of rumble and that the beseigers would cross it.
And the remains were thrown into the sea... what's the problem here? Does the prophecy have to say everything that happened to be fulfilled?
SteveMudSkipper said...
Josephus was a forgery and not contemporary, so what else have you got?
How do you know that? Josephus is one of the bigger names of ancient historians from that time. So the only part that anyone accuses to be a forgery is the part about Christ. That is quite amazing in my opinion.
I posted about this a couple days ago on one of the other prophesy posts of Ray's but it did not make it through.
The prophesies are NOT extremely detailed and precise. How can anyone think that they are?
@mrmason
Welcome aboard! Enjoyed your post. Good to have another Christian onboard the HMS Comfort.
Enjoyed your condo pics in Chicago.
How is the Windy City? I went thru boot camp at Great Lakes.
I see we share some of the same passages. I've got mason blood as well, running thru my veins.
I like to post that passage again, it really gets me thru a day with the "AHHH" atheists.
Matthew 5:11-12
11 Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted
they the prophets which were before
you.
This passage has given me so much comfort thru the years when I did the right thing, and served the Lord.
captain howdy said...
”So we don't have free will after all? I think you just committed heresy.”
God knows the future 100%. He’s ordained the future 100%. Does that mean every detail of your life is deterministic? Nope. That would be the conclusion of naturalistic materialism. It does mean that God’s will, will be done.
I believe that we have “limited” free will – you can choose one cereal over another, but you can’t choose to jump 20 feet in the air (you can choose to try).
Your will is limited in many areas.
The Bible says that you’re a slave to sin. Test it yourself and you’ll see it’s true. It means that the affections of your heart will always be in opposition to God until those affection are radically changed. You do not have the “will power to change” – you need a new heart with new desires. Only God can give you that. And I pray that He does, because God is sovereign but man is also fully responsible for every action (even your secret sins that you think no one knows about).
Wow Ray, I'm so flattered that you used another on of my post.
Unfortunately your claims don't have a leg to stand on. I'd go into more detail but its late, I've only skimmed through the current responses and it seems that many of the sharp people who frequent this site may have said everything I would have. I'll review it tomorrow afternoon when I'm wide awake and I'm sure I can conjure up something to throw into the mix.
Word is Bond!
~Atomic Chimp
Hey Josh,
Good job of dodging my question.
Outside of the bible, there is no evidence for Jesus. Just your own personal experience.
How did you meet Jesus? Did he come to you in a dream? Does he talk to you?
Ray mentioned in one of his posts that people who hear voices from God should be considered crazy. I'm inclined to take his advice.
See ya
@ Kids of AHH 'Chimp Land' BEHAVE!!!
Stop Misquoting Emily! you took that out of context. She said she WAS a atheist with this thinking:
"They don't like the light being shed on their darkness, and are fighting their conscience tooth and nail--hence why they are SO OBSESSED with an evangelist and his blog.
'Christians are stupid, crazy, lunatics! Illogical, arrogant, and without reason!'
Yet here they are amongst us, drawn DAILY (and sometimes multiple times a day!!) to the living water which is the Word of God."
Emily has a GOOD point here!
I've said it before.
Atheists have all these nasty things to say about Christians and still the ATHEISTS come back here to harass & persecute Christians!
I believe its two reasons. The first one is that deep down inside each one of you have a conscious.
That conscious tries to tell you that God exists, but you fight it off with your arrogance and pride.
The second is your living in sin, and therefore puppets of the prince of darkness, and the evil of this world.
You get angry and the thoughts of "Christians! how dare they believe in God!" crosses your mind. You want so much to disprove the creation, and the creator.
Satan is manipulating you. Don't let him rule your life with
animal instincts. Come into the light of truth!
Please! play nice in the "sand box" with the Christians.
Name calling is "A" typical of children in kindergarten and elementary grades. Please act
like an intellectual! thank you!
This is a Christian blog, with a Christian blog master discussing Christian issues. Atheists are welcome to come here that behave themselves, act like gentleman or ladies, and DISCUSS the issues!
I realize this might be difficult for you, but remember the Christians are praying for you, and we do believe in miracles!
God Bless! Praying for You!!! :)
David W. Irish said... "The reality is that the Council of Trent, nor any other Catholic Church decree or document, ever forbid ordinary people from reading the Bible.
Anyone who makes this claim is either lying, or uncritically accepting the word of a liar as a fact."
COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D.
Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed.
Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed.
Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.
There are dozens of such decrees in Catholic rhetoric.
Catholics are false teachers and false disiples, they demonically worship a false god, much like Hindu, Muslim, and any other man made religion, they are niether Christian nor a part of Christs church(which is one in the same).
John Doyle said... "It was written in the bible, so it must be true."
Amen, now you're getting it. Too bad your mocking.
@ Verdict...
Don't jump ship yet buddy...maybe you just need a couple of days of vacation from the ah-theists comments.
It can get frustrating cycling through the same discussions with atheists over and over and over and over again, but it's a good learning experience for us. PLUS, it helps us to further develop various fruits of the Spirit.
Peace & Blessings,
Michelle :)
To the Atheists,
How you feel about the information is irrelevant. What you think about it is irrelevant. Your personal opinion about is irrelevant. What is relevant is if it is true or not. History has proven these things to be true. You can choose to not like it, ignore it, pretend it is not true or have a bad attitude about it, but you and your opinions and attitudes have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on its truth or validity.
RE: "It's amazing to me that people will spend so much of their time attacking a book they don't believe in, a God they hate, and a person they think is an idiot." Thank you for attributing this brilliant quote to me, but actually I was merely quoting/commenting/replying to Mr. Mason. =)
Charles, RE: "emily said: "Christians are stupid, crazy, lunatics! Illogical, arrogant, and without reason!" Well, there you have it." Brilliant job on the out of context quote! I sure didn't see that one coming. =(
Iago, RE: "Ya know why a bunch of us are drawn here is because you folks keep yapping away about non-relavent things on our boards..." So, do you think that by posting here, you will make those people go away? I don't understand quite how that works. And re: "You don't want us here get your folks off of our boards and we will stay off of yours." Ok, I'll send everyone an email right away. ?? You misunderstand me if you think I want atheists and non-believers to go away. Quite the opposite. Keep visiting the evangelist's blog and keep talking to born again Christians. You all seem to enjoy it, and people that love to evangelize enjoy having such a captive audience. =)
Rufus, RE: "You're talking about the way Ray Comfort attacks evolution and Charles Darwin and the like, right? Good point." Do you worship Charles Darwin? Do you believe you exist because of Charles Darwin? Do you love Charles Darwin with all of your heart, mind and soul? Do you live to give glory and honor to Charles Darwin? Didn't think so. You can't compare attacks on God, the Bible and Christianity to "attacking" the theory of evolution. Sorry.
And Craig, so true, so true! It's almost amusing how they don't understand what draws them here day after day. It's amazing to me how God works. =)
verdict said...
I'm going to have to stop reading these comments and just read your blog, Ray... I don't have much hair left to pull out.
dede said...
he he he, ho, ha, ha..., u gave me a stitch in my side. thanks for your truthful humor today.
i too had to slow down on some of comment reading...i didn't think i'd look to good bald.
let's keep things light around here.
if i might add...
two peanuts were walking down the road and one was a salted.
(smile it won't hurt)
Stikman said...
"I posted about this a couple days ago on one of the other prophesy posts of Ray's but it did not make it through."
I also had a couple posts filtered out by Ray...why?
I simply asked this question:
---------------
How do you know that the Bible is true and the Koran is false?
---------------
Ray, if you filter this post, can you at least please tell me why? Thanks.
JSK said...
“Stress tolerance is a scientific issue. If engineers agree that a wooden ship greater than a given size can't hold together, and the Bible claims that such a ship was built, then the Bible seems to be claiming something which is scientifically impossible. (problem #1)”
Ok I understood what he wrote, but you miss understood what I asked. I asked for scientific proof…by that I mean not to just say that it cannot…but tested to make sure it cannot! We had a 300 foot boat, but was it built to the standard the ark was? Now before you answer think about whether we know how it was built, or if all we know is its dimensions? Is that 300 foot boat built of Cyprus wood? Is that 300 foot boat 3 stories tall? You can say that it “seems” impossible, but what testable scientific proof is there that says no it cannot be done?
“Biogeography is a scientific issue. If biologists agree that some animals can't survive in or traverse a certain environment, and the Bible implies that they did to reach the Ark, then the Bible seems to be implying something which is scientifically impossible. (problem #2)”
Now we again can say this…but was our planet pre-flood the same as it is now? Who says they had to traverse any where…I mean now they would have to traverse…but did they have to then? I am asking for testable scientific proof…not just what this person feels could, or could not happen.
“The rate of evolutionary change needed to produce new species is a scientific issue. If biologists agree that the number of animals which could fit into an ark of that size could not diversify in the period since the ark into all the species we observe today, then the Bible seems to be implying something which is scientifically impossible. (problem #3)”
First off no one and I mean no one knows how many animals were on the ark. So it is not a scientific issue. Every time you read something on it the number can vary. And the change can happen more rapidly than they may want to admit. If a white and black person mate, the first generation child from that relationship can be all black, all white, or a mixture. That is just one generation. I asked for testable scientific proof, not what you or this man thinks.
"The diet requirements of animals is a scientific issue. If biologists agree that the necessary food could not have been obtained and preserved in edible form for the length of the Ark journey, then the Bible seems to be implying something which is scientifically impossible. (problem #4)"
Again according to the Bible pre-flood everything was vegetarian. Even the Dinosaurs were vegetarian; I know scientists think they ate meat. But they have no proof that they ate meat! Show me the fossils we have that have one with the carcass of what it was eating still in its mouth? I have dull teeth…actually according to Clos I have no teeth. But that aside I eat meat, so sharp teeth does not equal meat eater. Again scientific testable proof that they could not do it?
“Fluid dynamics is a scientific issue. If physicists and meteorologists agree that water cannot be released in enough volume and at such a rate as to flood the earth in 40 days without making the planet uninhabitable for more than a year, under any scenario (whether the water came from above or below the atmosphere) and the Bible states that such a release of water took place, then the Bible seems to be stating something which is scientifically impossible. (problem #5)”
Ok now I am going to just mention Katrina…you do remember that little storm? This flood was global, that means that there was not a place on the planet that it was not raining. It was coming from the fountains below, and the windows of heaven were opened up. They can agree all they want, but hurricane Katrina dumped a lot of water in less than a week. The Bible says there was water from above and below at the same time. We have never seen anything like this storm, nor will we ever again. Where again is the testable scientific proof, not just what they feel cannot be possible? The Bible said there was a water canopy surrounding the earth, and after the flood the life spans dropped drastically. And science has found that if there was a water canopy surrounding the earth that that canopy would filter the harmful UV rays.
“Pattern of erosion is a scientific issue. If geologists agree that a rapid flood would leave patterns in the geological record (like sediment evidence on the sea floor), and no such patterns are found, then the Bible seems to be implying something which is scientifically impossible. (problem #6)”
First of all this is a bigger problem for you than it is for us. Considering you believe the world to be what now 14.5 billion years old? Where is all your build up? In 14.5 billion years you should not even have oceans. And before you go and say you do not need build up, the water is going to the same place for me, and my world view, as it is for you and your world view.
“Fossil pattern is a scientific issue. SFAIK all “creation scientists” claim that the fossil record is a product of the flood. If paleontologists agree that there are no dolphin fossils below a certain strata, but there are plentiful shark fossils below that level, though sharks and dolphins share a basic body shape and often share the same environment, then this claim seems to be scientifically impossible. (problem #7)”
Just because something is similar to something else, does not equate to equal. Scientists were not there, and we were not there. There is still no scientific proof for the claim, just speculation based on our world today. SFAIK the scientists are just making a speculation according to there hypothesis.
“The cause of geological features is a scientific issue. SFAIK all “creation scientists” claim that the earth's strata were laid down in the flood. If geologists agree that those strata all contain features which could not have formed during a flood (river channels, beaches, cave systems), then this claim seems to be scientifically impossible. (also problem #7, and you can see dozens of specific cases of similar apparent impossibilities listed by Isaak in this section.)”
The Grand Canyon has features that it should not have, for the supposed Colorado River to have cut it. It has steep walls…which mean fast moving river? It has a winding curvy path…which is an attribute of a slow moving river? So I ask you how did it do it? It appears to have been impossible for it to have been done even with billions of years…because it could not have flowed fast and slow at the same time. Plus the entrance of the canyon where the river starts has sides that have an elevation higher than that of the river…I have never seen a river run uphill! Have you? But I guess as long as we use our magic formula of billions of years anything is possible…except God!
“I don't have personal knowledge of the weight and extent of scientific testimony on these matters, which is why I've put them all in terms like “IF geologists agree,” but what I have read on these topics makes me confident that Isaak is summarizing the cases fairly here. Of course there's no reason for my confidence to have any evidentiary weight whatsoever with you; you'll have to make your own examination of scientific evidence and testimony, if you're interested. I'm just saying what I believe or disbelieve and why.”
I do not have all the knowledge either, but I know this for sure…evolution creates more questions than it will ever answer. And I am not the least bit concerned with who all agrees, as people on the Titanic actually thought the boat could not sink. And I have made a careful examination of the evidence…and saw that there is none. This whole article was mostly just this mans opinion, and very little science at all. I was hoping just for scientific facts, but all I got was what he thinks is possible, and what “seems” impossible according to the experts (so-called experts). I would not want to be Isaak the day he steps through deaths door, nor would I want to be the person who follows his teachings. God intentionally made it look impossible…because He will get the glory for it…not man. With God…all things are possible!
Respectfully wdjd4jh
Nick said...
wdjd4jh,
“You said that you know about science and that evolution is bad science. Can you explain in detail your scientific objections?”
First of all I would like to state that I was not the one who made this statement.
“Here we have a concise expression of a major misunderstanding of evolution. You believe that according to scientists, an individual creature would be "in the midst of transitioning."
Evolution does not occur during the lifetime of a creature. A creature doesn't evolve during its life.”
Secondly I would suggest that you go watch the debate between Ray, Kirk, and the Rational Response Squad again (or for the first time if you have not). Brian on the debate said for the whole world to see and hear, told Ray and Kirk that they were a transitional form, and that they were evolving. I am so glad that I can go to youtube, and watch it again just to hear him state what you guys tell us we do not understand. I guess Brian and Kelly are just misunderstanding…quick one of you guys needs to straighten them out before they make fools of you!
Respectfully wdjd4jh
Ray do you make a point of changing what you wrote when called out so that it appears you never wrote it?
I think I'm done with all the blasphemy and sarcasm for a while.
If this isnt casting pearls before swine, I dont know what is.
What is worse Ray, Giving the mockers something to scoff at? Or trying to reach them? I dont know anymore.....Hope you do
sm
Wdjd4jh,
Instead of spouting your sheer crackpottery about the Grand Canyon, why don't you actually go and read about how geologists say it was formed?
It is obvious that you have not done this because you are not refuting any valid science. You are merely repeating nonesense that you have heard.
Ju8st as a teaser, I can tell you that the GC was formed, and is as deep as it is because of the uplift in that area.
If the GC and Colorado was like every other river in the world, they would all be Grand Canyons.
When you have even a small stream of water running and uplift occurs, gravity imposes forces from the water unlike what you could imagine. Technical jargon would be totally wasted on someone as illiterate and ignorant of science as yourself.
Also, if you get yourself a rock hammer and actually go to the GC, you can start at the bottom and work your way up and see all the evidence you want that the lowest strata of the geological column contains very simple animal life and the higher up you go, the more complex it becomes. There is no way your flood myth can explain that.
I do recommend that you do some independant study, or better yet take one course in geology from a local college. You might find yourself facinated, and at least then you would have the real evidence to try to refute.
In the meantime, your statements only show you to be churlish and lazy about what the real science says.
Wdjd4jh,
You said,
"But I guess as long as we use our magic formula of billions of years anything is possible."
Just more proof that you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.
The GC is relatively new, geologically.
Prior to about 35 million years ago the ancestral Colorado River flowed across a vast plain, along a course very similar to that of today.
When the Kaibab Plateau began to uplift approximately 35 million years ago the river was diverted to the southeast because it could not cross newly created barrier. The new course for the river now flowed out to the Gulf of Mexico instead of to the Pacific Ocean. The old course on west side of the Kaibab Plateau, the Hualapai Drainage System, continued to be a major drainage for the plateau itself and the regions west of it.
At some point around 12 million years ago, the river's course to the Gulf of Mexico became blocked and an enormous lake, know referred to as Lake Bidahochi, was formed as a result.
Meanwhile, on the western side of the Kaibab Plateau, a process known as "headwater erosion" began eating its way through the southern portion of the plateau. After millions of years this erosional process allowed the Hualapai system to break through the barrier created by the uplifted plateau and rejoin the ancestral Colorado.
Once the break-through was complete the ancestral Colorado River began to follow the new course becuase of its steeper and more desirable descent. The waters of Lake Bidahochi began to drain through the new course as well and the result is the gorge through which the Little Colorado River now flows. The combined flow of the Colorado River and the Little Colorado River west of their confluence continued to widen and deepen the course and created the Grand Canyon.
People that repeat brainless drivel that they hear from ignorant people are easy to detect. I don't think you want to continue on that course. do you?
@ Atheists, Ground Rules
Ray, does not need to tell you anything. He does not NEED to justify why he posts a comment, and the next one he does not.
He does not need to justify a posted topic. It is called "Freedom of Speech".
This is RAY's blog, and he posts anything he wants. This is not Stalin country, or Nazi Germany.
If we were there, we would not have the internet to access.
If you ask Politely, he may just answer your request. Try this:
"Ray, could you be so kind as to tell me why you did not post my comment? I realize your a busy man.
Thank you for the consideration"
Let's get Along, AMEN! God Bless!
"only show you to be churlish and lazy" dale said.
What did we say about name calling? Cut it out dale!
Be Nice! Play Nice in the sand box. No need to resort to name calling.
You've been warned 2 or 3 times, I've lost track.
Scott Moore said...
I think I'm done with all the blasphemy and sarcasm for a while.
If ya can't take the heat, git outta the kitchen.......
Emily:
A little background on the out-of-context quote. Ray has been called many times on the fact that he fills books with out-of-context quotes from scientists to give the false impression that they support him and his deity. Ray has contended that this is perfectly legitimate as he is only interested in the "gold nugget of truth" and feels no need to include the "surrounding soil of context." Charles would be taking a pot-shot at Ray's methods. Hence the "I've just ... ahem ... extracted the gold nugget from the surrounding dirt."
I don't believe that anyone has actually given a list of prophecies that Nostrodamus made that were literally ripped off from the Bible. Has anyone attempted to do this yet?
Also, does anyone acknowledge that Ray's statement concerning the Catholic Church banning people from reading the Bible, is not true at all?
wdjd4jh:
You seem to be arguing that a scientific statement of the form “X is impossible” can't be said to be “scientifically proven” until each and every possible example of X is tried. Think about it for a minute and you'll realize that isn't a reasonable or even a possible standard of proof. For example, physicists are confident they understand the laws of nature well enough to say “there can be no such thing as a perpetual motion machine”: they do not feel they need to test every claim which pops up on the Internet. In the case of the Ark, there are essentially an infinite number of possible variations on “big ship made of wood,” and we don't have the time and resources to try them all. (If creationists are confident the Ark story is factual, though, why don't they build one of the proper dimensions and try it out in a storm?)
You repeatedly say “I'm asking for testable scientific proof, not what this man or that man says.” But when this man, and that man, and that man, and this woman, and that other man (etc., etc.) have all studied a question, offered a hypothesis, performed the equations or experiments needed to support that hypothesis, allowed the rest of the scientific world a chance to refute that hypothesis with contrary evidence, and the hypothesis remains standing, that's the closest thing you're going to get to “testable scientific proof.” (Of course most scientists reject the notion that there is such a thing as “proof” outside of mathematics, but we're presumably using looser standards or looser language here.) Apparently you think there is some other kind of testable scientific proof: how would you define it, then? How do you know when you've seen it?
[Re: the argument from biogeography:] was our planet pre-flood the same as it is now? Who says they had to traverse any where…I mean now they would have to traverse…but did they have to then?
Unless every environment which was needed for every animal was present (on a scale which would sustain that population) within practical gathering distance of Noah – which seems impossible (rain forests next to deserts next to arctic tundra next to...?) – then biogeography still presents an apparently insuperable obstacle, no matter how different the pre-flood planet might have been.
[Re: the argument from rate of evolutionary change:] First off no one and I mean no one knows how many animals were on the ark.
John Woodmorappe, allegedly with some colossal fudging of figures (see the talk origins reviews of his book) claimed 15,750 animals could fit. Nobody, SFAIK, has dared to propose significantly more. With those numbers or anything in the same ballpark with them, you essentially have to have all of “big cat kind” (lions, tigers, jaguars, leopards) evolving from a common ancestor in a few hundred years. If evolutionary change can occur at that rate, how long would it take for all of “primate kind” to evolve from a common ancestor? Biologists say such rates are impossible. Your denial of this (you claim “the change can happen more rapidly than they may want to admit”) is only worth considering if you have studied the literature on the subject and are capable of pointing to its flaws. Have you? Are you? What makes you think changes in skin color from one generation to the next are at all comparable to the kinds of changes that differentiate a jaguar from a tiger? Do you have any idea how many differences there are between the genomes of the two cats, as opposed to the number of differences between the genomes of a white person and a black person?
[Re: the argument from diet requirements:] Again according to the Bible pre-flood everything was vegetarian.
I've read the Book of Genesis many times, and I feel confident in saying: there is no such claim. Even if there were, it would only establish that the Bible was making a claim which is scientifically absurd. Any animal which even vaguely resembled modern cats, resembled them enough to be their ancestor, was a carnivore, unless God designed them very badly indeed. But let that go: what you are claiming, essentially, is that IF we disregard all ideas about the uniformity of nature, and are free to propose that in the past sharp claws and carnivore teeth were not used for wounding and stabbing, or antelope-like legs for running away from predators, etc., etc., etc., then we might be able to dispose of some objections to the story. I concede this. But if you disregard all ideas about the uniformity of nature, you are no longer in the realm of science, so what is the point of even asking for “scientific proof”?
[Re: the argument from fluid dynamics:] hurricane Katrina dumped a lot of water in less than a week... The Bible says there was water from above and below at the same time. We have never seen anything like this storm, nor will we ever again. Where again is the testable scientific proof, not just what they feel cannot be possible?
How does this address the argument? Have you read the Isaak article? He was not arguing that a great deal of water could not possibly be produced, he was arguing that the result of that amount of water would have been far more catastrophic than even the Bible story claims, that nothing could have survived it. He offered calculations of heat release: can you show the flaw in them? If you feel you can, by all means write to talk origins with your criticisms. But simply saying “where's the proof” when somebody has offered you a set of calculations which (if correct) do constitute proof is not – to put it very, very mildly -- a reasonable way to argue against something.
Your answers to the other objections follow the same pattern. For the argument about sediments, you say “Considering you believe the world to be what now 14.5 billion years old? Where is all your build up?” If you think that geology has no answer to the question of where sediments go, then I don't think you have studied geology. And if you haven't studied geology, you are in no position to argue that geologists have no idea what would or would not happen in a flood. You are in no position to pound the table demanding “proof” if you don't have the background necessary to recognize what does constitute evidence for a proposition and what doesn't. (Also, the age of the earth is about 4.5 billion years; the universe is thought to be closer to 14.5 billion, which may be what you were thinking of.)
Then, for the argument about the fossil record you fall back on “Scientists were not there, and we were not there. There is still no scientific proof for the claim, just speculation based on our world today.” This just isn't a serious argument. If you really thought there was no such thing as proving what could or could not have happened unless you were there when it happened, then you wouldn't believe in the existence of forensic evidence, such as is used in trials. (“The bullet taken from the scene matches bullets from the defendant's gun? So? Were you there when the bullet was fired? How do you know that the laws of ballistics weren't different three days ago?”) Creationists are fond of caricaturing the evolutionary thesis by saying it's like the (transparently absurd!) notion that a tornado in a junkyard can produce a 747. Now here they are claiming the a monster flood rushing through countless riverbeds can sort fossils with a comparable degree of precision. (Millions of bones, and not a single mammalian bone ever found below the Devonian.) If you want to defend a scenario against the claim that it's just not the sort of thing that happens in nature, you have to do better than “how do you know, were you there?”
Your summary, Part I: “I do not have all the knowledge either, but I know this for sure…evolution creates more questions than it will ever answer.”
My response: unless you have at least the beginnings of knowledge about the relevant fields, you can't possibly know “for sure”-- or even “for likely” -- which objections to evolutionary claims are serious and which are silly, which questions it has answered or hasn't answered, or how it compares to other theories or dogmas in that regard.
Your summary, Part II: “God intentionally made it look impossible…because He will get the glory for it…not man. With God…all things are possible!”
And with this, you essentially confess that you were just teasing me all along with all that request for scientific proof that the flood was impossible, because you know full well that, according to scientific standards, it was impossible. And I fell for it. Well, I can't blame you too much for pulling this kind of bait and switch, since (as you say) you are only following God's example. After all, by your account God is playing the grandest and most glorious bait and switch in the history of the universe: first he places overwhelming evidence that the earth was old and a global flood never took place, in fact makes it seem “impossible!” to believe that the earth was young and an Ark saved all life, thus “baiting” us into suspecting the Bible of being less than entirely accurate; then, the switch! we all go to hell for not following the Bible's instructions.
I think you need a better role model.
Fake Dale is right!
THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION RAY COMFORT!
In his love, Terry1
From Steve: "Hey Josh,
Good job of dodging my question.
Outside of the bible, there is no evidence for Jesus. Just your own personal experience.
How did you meet Jesus? Did he come to you in a dream? Does he talk to you?
Ray mentioned in one of his posts that people who hear voices from God should be considered crazy. I'm inclined to take his advice.
See ya"
Why isn't the Bible a reliable historical account? From whom do we have the accounts of Roman Emporers? From their own people, right? From whom do we have the accounts of the Greek cities? From their own people, right? From whom do we have the account of the Israelites? From their own people, right? What's the problem?
Secondly, why can't my personal experience be used as evidence?
As for dale, who wrote: "And from the new book, The funniest things Christians Say, is from ol' Josh,
'How so? Because even if no one ever met Jesus, He still existed.'
And that is the type of logic we are dealing with..."
Sir, one's existence does not depend on someone else's knowledge thereof. I mean, duh.
I'm quite certain that there are people in America who don't know that you exist. That doesn't mean that you don't (obviously). Similarly, Jesus' existence doesn't depend on people knowing about Him, but upon reality. Just because you don't believe on Him doesn't make Him non-existent--just makes you wrong.
Burton,
It is your foolishness that brings out the worst in people. You are the Dale that just commented about being polite.
And why would you want to take a screen name that has already been taken. That makes no sense at all. You do it to obfuscate, even though you haven't been able to fool anybody.
I have honored every request that Ray has mnade of me and I sure am not going to pay any attention to anything you have to say. You have earned only ridicule from most everybody here including the Christians. You are the only one that doesn't see it.
I don't bow to threats, but I will say, if you drop using my name, and quit posting in the different screen names, I promise to take a kiner gentler approach, which was my original desire.
I am merely fighting fire with fire.
Dale/ Terry Burton. Quit using my screen name, which is also my real name. It only creates confusion and it is rather unethical.
You are a vindictive and foolish man and you came on my blog and threatened me and my cronies, then you turn around and tell me to play nice? Get a brain you phoney.
This comes from a message by John Macarthur. It is a good review of several prophecies in the Old Testament that can be confirmed outside of Scripture:
The fact that the Bible contains prophecies that are fulfilled already in history is an indication that God is the author of Scripture. One of the strongest indications, I believe, that Scripture is inspired by God is the fact that it is absolutely accurate and demonstrates divine omniscience with regard to future events. There is nothing more true of all humanity than that we cannot predict the future. We cannot predict the future. We are abysmal at predicting the future. It is impossible for us to predict the future. I remember a few weeks before I came here to be the pastor of Grace Community Church back in February of 1969, not long before that, United States Space Agency was making its efforts to place a man on the moon. And a gentleman was invited to speak here at Grace Church, a pastor who had been preaching for many years, and he came on a Sunday night and he preached on the subject, "Why God will never allow man to reach the moon." And he had what he thought were all kinds of biblical reasons for that viewpoint. Well obviously he was wrong and shortly after that he made that terrible error in judgment and discernment, he was proven to be wrong and for all that I know that was really the end of people's confidence in him.
We are unable to declare the future. But God is able because God knows everything and because God writes history and therefore He writes the future. Prophecy really, as we look at it tonight, is going to consider that aspect of God's omniscience which causes Him to be able to accurately predict the future. This aspect of prophecy we're going to look at is going to be a declaration of future events. Prophecy is a big word and it can have a lot of meanings. But we're going to use the word in the sense of predicting the future. Prophecy can be from the Greek verb prophemi, to speak before or to speak on behalf of someone, or to speak of things before they actually happen. And we're going to be looking at it in that sense.
Prophecy is never just a good guess. It is never conjecture. It is never partially accurate. It is always unknowable, unpredictable. It always has multiple contingencies and features that cannot be controlled and cannot be known so that as you look into the future and hear God say something is going to happen that has manifold elements to it, you have convincing proof of the divine authorship of Scripture. We can probe into the past by means of the science of historiography, if you will, the study of history. We can delve into the past. And we can do a fairly good job of reconstructing the past. But even when we look at the past there's a lot of disagreement about many, many things and in the world today if you've been educated in the more recent years, you have heard often about revisionist history, efforts to rewrite history from a completely different viewpoint. We have a difficult time, we are fairly successful of being scientific about reassembling the elements of the past, and getting a pretty good idea of what happened in the past. But we have no such means to determine what will happen in the future and no faculty of pre-science or pre-knowledge about what has not occurred. I'm not talking about being able to read about a trend in business because you can discern the way the economy is going. I'm not talking about being able to predict a certain election, political election because you can sense or you can read or you can discern and assess the elements that are going to come into play in that event. We're not talking about those kinds of things. We're talking about specific prophecies with multiple components that are equally specific.
We shouldn't be surprised that the Bible can do this. We shouldn't at all be surprised because it makes so many times the claim of divine omniscience. Hear the words from Isaiah 46 verses 9 and 10, "I am God and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times the things that are not yet done. There is no one like Me. I can tell you the ending while we're still at the beginning. And I can tell you from ancient times the things that have not yet happened." No one had this ability but God...not even those supposed prophets and prognosticators...Nostradomus, others that have come along in history. I think back a few years, the Jean Dixon and Edgar Casey. And then there are even the more modern quasi religious quasi Christian predictors of the future who give their nebulas prophecies and frequently specific prophecies that turn out to be wrong. There is no one who can know the future but the one who controls the future. There is no one who can tell us what will happen before it has happened except God. No man, no demon can predict specific events or persons who will appear on the scene in the future and carry out certain actions, only God knows that.
And it is such an important element of biblical literature because some have estimated about one fourth of the Bible is prophetic, about one fourth of the Bible is prophetic. Some scholars feel that even more than that, moving in the direction of a third of Scripture is prophetic. Now as far as a standard for true prophecy, let me take you in to the Old Testament. Turn to Deuteronomy chapter 18...Deuteronomy chapter 18. We have to lay a bit of a foundation and then we'll look at some of the prophecies. We'll do that tonight and also next Sunday night, as well. But in Deuteronomy chapter 18...I'm sorry, chapter 18, yes, verse 20, we read this, "But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptiously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die." The death sentence then is pronounced upon a prophet who speaks a word presumptiously as if it comes from God when it does not. Or who speaks a word coming from some other supposed god than the one true and living God. This was to bring about his execution.
Verse 21, "And you may say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?' When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about, or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptiously, you shall not be afraid of him." That is you shouldn't be intimidated by him because he's telling you a lie. If it doesn't come to pass, it doesn't come from God. If it's not accurate, the prophet is to be executed.
Turn over in your Bible to the forty-first chapter of Isaiah...Isaiah chapter 41, and we're going to be bouncing around a little bit to cover this subject tonight. In Isaiah chapter 41 we'll look down at verse 21. "Present your case...the Lord says, Isaiah 41:21...present your case, the Lord says, bring forward your strong argument the King of Jacob says." Verse 22, "Let them bring forth and declare to us what is going to take place." They claim to be prophets, they claim to speak for God. All right, bring your case. "Bring it forth, declare to us what is going to take place. As for the former events, declare what they were. Tell us what has happened in the past just because you're omniscient and you know it, tell us what will happen in the future. Do this that we may consider them and know their outcome, or announce to us what is coming. Declare the things that are going to come afterward that we may know that You are God's.
Here's the test. Tell us all about what has happened because You're omniscient about the past. And tell us all that will happen because You're also omniscient about the future. This, by the way, was a challenge to the Babylonian seers, the Babylonian wise men, the Babylonian prophets, the ones who were supposed to be able to discern the future. Tell us and if you can't, verse 24 says, you are of no account, your work amounts to nothing, he who chooses you is an abomination. And again the test is if you tell us the truth, it comes from God...if you don't, it does not and you are a false prophet worthy of death.
Chapter 43 of Isaiah and we'll look at verse 9. "All the nations have gathered together in order that the peoples may be assembled it...assembled. Who among them can declare this and proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified or let them hear and say it is true." You test them, first of all, by their knowledge of the past without books, without records. If they know truth beyond what is observable, they should be able to know the past. Verse 10, "You are My witnesses, declares the Lord, My servant whom I have chosen in order that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, there will be none after Me...even I, I am the Lord, there is no Savior besides Me. It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed and there was no strange God among you so you are My witnesses, declares the Lord, and I am God." God is saying you know that I speak the truth and therefore you know that I am God. Bring these other people and put them to the test of their knowledge of both the past and the future to see if their claim to speak for me as prophets is legitimate.
Jeremiah also deals with this in the twenty-eighth chapter of Jeremiah. Just briefly looking at these verses, you can look at them in detail later. Verse 9 of Jeremiah 28, "The prophet who prophesies of peace when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, then that prophet will be known as one whom the Lord has truly sent." Again when he prophesies and it comes to pass, you know that he was sent by the Lord. So the test for a true prophet was that what he prophesied came to pass, that he knew because God had revealed that knowledge to him.
Now in the Scripture there are many prophecies. The first one appears in Genesis 3:15 where we read that the seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent's head...the seed of the woman would destroy Satan. The woman does not have the seed, the seed is in the man. But there was one woman in human history who had a seed within her body apart from a man depositing that seed there and that was the virgin Mary and it was she who produced the Son that crushed the head of Satan. Therein lies the first prophecy in the Bible and it is fulfilled specifically in the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ through a virgin...a virgin-born man.
Some Bible scholars have said there are as many as a thousand different prophecies in the Scripture, all relating to future history and many of them have already been fulfilled. The Bible lays out prophecies regarding people and kings and cities and nations and even prophecies that touched the wider world. And to just show you how replete the Scripture is with prophetic truth, there are 20 consecutive chapters of prophecy in Isaiah. There are seventeen consecutive chapters of prophecy in Jeremiah, nine in Ezekiel, two in Amos, and it goes that way through all the rest of the prophets. Doom is predicted for Ammon, for Moab, for Edom, for Philistia, for Babylon, for Tyre, for Sidon and for many other places, doom which came to pass already in history. The record is already written.
In the New Testament there are prophecies in the gospels covering cities in the land of Israel, prophecies which have already come to pass regarding those cities. The record of absolute accurate fulfillment without error through all the centuries stands and while it has been assailed by critics, it has suffered not at all. No matter how hard the critics try, they cannot find a biblical prophecy that did not come to pass the way it was said to happen. And the prophets who wrote didn't really even understand fully what they were writing. That takes us back to that important statement in the first statement in the first chapter of 1 Peter, "As to this salvation...verse 10...the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating." They were actually studying their own prophecies concerning the Messiah to try to understand what it was that they were writing. For example, Isaiah predicted that a king would come and that that king's name would be Cyrus. And Isaiah said there would come a king named Cyrus and he will release Israel from its Babylonian captivity. Isaiah gave us his name 150 years before he was even born. And that is found in Isaiah 44:28...Isaiah 44:28.
A passage that is striking for its simplicity and its accuracy, 1 Kings chapter 13 and verse 2. "Came a man of God from Judah...in verse 1...he cried against the altar by the Word of the Lord and said, 'O altar, altar, thus says the Lord, behold a son shall be born to the house of David, Josiah by name and on you he shall sacrifice the priests of the high places who burn incense on you and human bones shall be burned on you.'" This is a prophecy regarding a coming king, Josiah, who would bring about the destruction of false teachers. By the way, the prophecy names him three hundred years before he was born. Prophecy does not prove the Bible is the Word of God, but it certainly could prove that it was not the Word of God if it is wrong. But it is never wrong. And this is God's absolute test...search the Scripture, see if these things are so. Our Lord says in Mark 13:23 as He is talking about His Second Coming, "Take heed, behold I have told you all things." He's talking there about the future, the events of His Second Coming and He is essentially saying to them there in Mark 13 as in Matthew 24 and in Luke 21, when you see these things begin to happen, you know that the day of the Lord is near because I have told you all things.
So we have prophecies already given and already fulfilled. Prophecies also given and not yet fulfilled. They will be, however, be fulfilled in the future with the same kind of accuracy that they were fulfilled in the past and if I could throw in a little hermeneutical footnote here, all the prophecies in the past fulfilled in the past were fulfilled literally as they were given. We could therefore assume that all the prophecies related to the future will be fulfilled literally as they were given. They are to be understood in the normal sense that we understand language. And so when it says Christ will come, He will come. When He will come in clouds, He will come in clouds. When He shall place His feet on the Mount of Olives, that's where He'll place His feet. When He establishes a thousand-year Millennium, that means He will establish a thousand-year Millennium. All of those prophecies are to be understood in the normal way that prophecies have always been understood. All of the curses that were pronounced and promised to Israel and that came on Israel are only part of God's plan for Israel. He also promised them blessing for obedience. And when they are obedient, they will be blessed and it will be the same national Israel that will be blessed as the same national Israel was once cursed. You cannot have the curses fall literally on Israel and as the amillennialists would suggest, have all of the promises fall on the church. There's no way to divide that hermeneutic. The prophecies of the Bible in the future will be understood the way the ones in the past have been understood and so at the end of the age as the signs begin to escalate toward the day of the Lord, they will be interpreted the way you would interpret all the rest of the prophecy that Scripture lays out.
Let's look at some illustrations of this. Ezekiel chapter 26...Ezekiel chapter 26, I'm going to move rapidly so that we can cover a few of these prophecies. A lot of these I have some notes in the footnotes in the MacArthur Study Bible that will help fill out the things that I don't have time to say. You can check those sources and others in the commentaries written on these various prophetic books. But for us, we'll get a good idea of the amazing fulfillment of these prophecies. Ezekiel chapter 26 through chapter 28 and even some comments in chapter 9 are prophecies against a city named Tyre...T-y-r-e. These are prophecies against a city named Tyre. It is identified in the second verse, mentioned there Tyre, verse 2. Now the prophecies start in verse 3, "Behold, I am against you, O Tyre. I will bring up many nations against you as the sea brings up its waves, nation after nation after nation hitting against Tyre like waves hitting against the shore." And here come the details. "They will destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers and I will scrape her debris from her and make her a bare rock. She will be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea for I have spoken, declares the Lord God, and she will become spoil for the nations." Go down to verse 8. "He will slay your daughters on the mainland with the sword and He will make siege walls against you, cast up a mound against you and raise up a large shield against you." Go down to verse 12, "They will make a spoil of your riches, a prey of your merchandise, break down your walls, destroy your pleasant houses, throw your stones and your timbers and your debris into the water." Verse 14, "I will make you a bare rock. You will be a place for the spreading of nets. You will be built no more for I, the Lord, have spoken declares the Lord God." Verse 21, "I shall bring terrors on you and you will be no more. Thou you will be sought, you will never be found again, declares the Lord God."
Now the elements of this prophecy are really very, very detailed. The prophecy says the mainland city of Tyre will be destroyed. The prophecy says many nations will rise against Tyre, they'll come successively, not all at once collectively together as one force but like waves, one after another. It says that the rubble of that city will be thrown into the water. It says that Tyre will become like a bare flat rock. It says that fishermen shall dry their nets there. It says Tyre will never be rebuilt again. And there are even other details that I read you about casting a siege and breaking down the walls of that place.
Now you have to understand that when Ezekiel makes this prophecy, you're not talking about some small town here. You're talking about one of the greatest cities in the ancient world, the great Phoenician seaport of Tyre and the Phoenicians were one of the most advanced civilizations in ancient times and they were the sailors. They were the ones who sailed the Mediterranean. They were the great traders of the world, the greatest sailors in the world history, the greatest navigators in ancient times. They were the foremost explorers of their day and they were therefore great colonizers.
You find a ruler named Hiram I who controlled the Phoenician world, Phoenicia. This city under his reign, this city of Tyre was fortified with a wall, according to history, 150 feet high, fifteen feet thick. It had a very capable fleet. It was flourishing when Joshua led Israel into the promised land. In fact, Hiram began his reign eight years before Solomon, overlapping David's reign. David sought help from Hiram when David wanted to build his palace and he got artisans and cedars from Hiram to help with the palace. Hiram later aided Solomon when Solomon set out to build the temple by sending cedars down, the cedars of Lebanon.
But this prophecy was given that this great city would be destroyed with all this detail laid out. Three years after the prophecy...three years...Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, laid a siege against the city of Tyre. It lasted from 585 to 573, thirteen years of siege against this city. Finally after thirteen years of being surrounded by the forces of Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar and having their supplies cut off, they finally surrendered to the terms and the first part of the prophecy was fulfilled because Nebuchadnezzar immediately broke down all the walls and broke down all the towers, verse 4, destroying the walls, breaking down all the towers. That made the city indefensible. That was not an unusual thing for conquerors to do, but you can imagine it was a serious enterprise. It doesn't mean you have to break down the entire wall, but you had to render it ineffective by putting massive holes in it at the appropriate places.
Upon arriving, however, he was shocked to find no spoils which was a great disappointment to a conqueror because the people had used their superb fleet to remove everything of value far away, at least far enough away to an island about a half mile off shore. They had just continually over those years been shuttling everything of value off shore. By the way, in the twenty-ninth chapter of Ezekiel verses 17 to 20, Ezekiel says that the Babylonians would get no plunder and they did not get any plunder. So the mainland city was destroyed, it was flattened, it was nothing but rubble, basically. The island city then flourished a half mile off shore. It remained a powerful city, by the way, for 250 years. That was the new city of Tyre.
While during those 250 years the timbers and the stones remained in ruins on the shore for that whole duration. All the prophecy then was not fulfilled, only a portion of it was fulfilled. In the ordinary course of events, those ruins would have become a tell, t-e-l-l, a mound, such as archaeologists find and dig into as the wind-swept dirts cover over the centuries, they bury the rubble of the city. And surely when parts of the wall fell, eventually all the wall fell and normally would have been buried under a tell to be discovered long time later by archaeologists. No one, no one at all would go to the monumental effort of throwing all that debris into the water, but that is exactly what this scripture says. Verse 12, "They will break down the walls, destroy the pleasant houses, throw your stones and your timbers and your debris into the water." Why would anybody do that? Why would you cart down debris and throw it into the water? Well for 250 years nobody did that, it wasn't fulfilled. Then along came Alexander the Great. Alexander the Great, at this time, is age 24, he is bent on conquering the world. He has come on his way east. He has an infantry we are told that numbers about 33 thousand men and he has about 15 thousand in his calvary and he is on his way to establish his great world empire. He has just defeated the Persians under Darius III at the battle of Isis in the year 333. He is on his march now to the east and toward Egypt. He wants to conquer the great Egyptian society. In order to get to Egypt, he has to make a bend around the eastern part of the Mediterranean and come down the coast. He comes in to Phoenicia which is now the land of Israel, basically. He calls on the Phoenician cities to open their gates to him and to supply him all the supplies that he needs. And, of course, the first place that he stops as he starts south is that northernmost place called Tyre. He sent word to the Tyrenians of what he wanted and they sent word back and said, "We're not giving you anything."
And so, Alexander was upset. And you don't want to get Alexander the Great upset. It's amazing the lengths that that man would go to achieve the satisfaction of his own agenda. He had no fleet, he had no ships. How in the world was he going to get what he needed from Tyre which was a half mile off shore? Answer? He saw all the debris that had been lying there for 250 years and to make a long story short, he built a causeway all the way to the island...at least two thousand feet long. And we are told by historians and we can see it because it's still there in part today, at least 200 feet wide across the strait separating the old and the new. Arian, the Greek historian, has written in his book, History of Alexander in India how this was accomplished. And he gives all kinds of fascinating details.
Tyre had become fortified like Alcatraz, surrounded by powerful walls that went right down to the edge of the sea. Really a very impregnable place. So Alexander knew that if he was going to conquer them, he couldn't just go pull up to the wall in ships, he could build ships relatively...that was a relative possibility, but he could only get up to a wall he couldn't get across, so he decided that he would need to build a land peninsula and move massive machines that were very tall with flip-down bridges that he could set on the top of the wall to walk right in to the city. The work went well at first, until the water started getting deeper and deeper and as the water got deeper, the project moved slower and all the people in Tyre stood on the wall and threw boulders at his army, trying to build their causeway.
They stopped the work in order to protect their lives, this only made him more angry. And so he decided that he would build a great shield called a tortoise, for obvious reasons, and that he would hold up the shield. You remember in the passage that I just read you, there is reference made that there would be raised up, in verse 8, a large shield against you. You find that in history. They actually tried to shield the workers from the stones that were being thrown on them. Meanwhile, Alexander's engineers were on the shore building monster towers called Heliopolis...Heliopolis, a hundred and sixty-feet high, twenty stories high. And they held at the top light artillery and men. Highest towers, by the way, ever used in the history of war. High above the city walls, they would just roll them across the causeway when it was finished, drop down the cause...the bridge and march into the city. They were basically resisted and resisted and resisted, raids from the people of Tyre, everything they could do to stop them, it all was for not. In the end, even using some ships that he acquired, he collected the navies from all the local places he could go. He got help from places like Sidon and Biblis(?) and Rhodes and Malous(?) and Lycia and Macedon and Cyprus and he got enough ships to move out into the deep water and continue his building.
Seven months it took him, seven months. At the end of seven months, these monstrous towers rolled across that causeway, flipped down the bridges, went into the city. Eight thousand were slain in the battle, seven thousand were executed military style, thirty thousand were sold as slaves to replenish the treasuries of Alexander. Philip Myer the historian says, "Alexander the Great reduced Tyre to ruins in 332, or 333 B.C. She recovered in a measure but never to the place she previously held in the world. The once great city is now as bare...writes this historian...as the top of a rock and is a place where fishermen dry their nets."
By the way, that island city was repopulated and later restored...destroyed by the Muslims, 1281. The Muslims came, conquering in the name of Allah. But the main city has never been rebuilt and that is consistent with verse 21, "You will never be found again," declares the Lord God. There's a little village out there on that island. It's in the news in modern times. There's a place where the Israelis have retaliated against refugee camps in past years. Jerusalem has been rebuilt, just for information sake, seventeen times...seventeen times. Twenty-five centuries ago a Jewish prophet in exile in Babylon was told by God that the city of Tyre would never be rebuilt, and it never has. Today you can't even find a ruin on that site.
And frankly, that's astounding to me because the location is staggeringly beautiful, one of the most beautiful spots along the Mediterranean. There's a fresh water spring there that has been measured some years ago that produces a flow of ten million gallons of water a day, enough for a large city. Never been rebuilt. Some mathematicians got a hold of this prophecy, took all of the little parts of this prophecy, put them all together and said, "The probability that this could all happen by chance is one in seventy-five million." That's probably conservative. Amos weighed in on the destruction of Tyre. Turn to Amos chapter 1 verse 9, "Thus says the Lord, for three transgressions of Tyre and for four, I will not revoke its punishment because they delivered up an entire population to Edom and did not remember the covenant of brotherhood, so I will send fire upon the wall of Tyre and it will consume her citadels." And we know historically that Tyre was literally burned by the missiles of Nebuchadnezzar. In the original attack, Tyre was burned by missiles, fiery arrows fired by the forces of Nebuchadnezzar in the thirteen-year siege.
This is an amazing scripture until you understand that God wrote this and God told the prophet what the prophet never could have known because God knows exactly what's going to happen because God is in charge of exactly what's going to happen. In the ninth chapter of Zechariah there is more against Tyre, verse 2, there is a word of the Lord against this land, Tyre and Sidon. And then in verse 3, "Tyre build herself a fortress, piled up silver like dust and gold like the mire of the streets," and that was because the Phoenicians out of Tyre were doing this trade all over the Mediterranean area. Also they were trading with the east because the goods coming from the east would come through there to go to the Mediterranean. They were trading with the south, people coming up from Egypt and those coming down from the north, so that they were very, very wealthy. "Behold...says verse 4...the Lord will dispossess her, cast her wealth into the sea. She will be consumed with fire." Again Zechariah noted what was true in the raid or the siege of Nebuchadnezzar that the city was set on fire. Other cities in Phoenicia that became later known as Philistine cities, Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, these cities also, including Ashdod in verse 6, would be a part of the prophecy as well.
Going further down the course...the coast, it's Gaza, Ekron, Ashkelon, Ashdod, they're all going to be captured. They all were captured. And of the five great cities, the only one left out of the prophecy because it was a little bit inland was the city of Gath...the city of Gath.
Josephus, the great historian, records for us in immense detail, and you can read Josephus' history how all these components came to pass. The success of Alexander's evasion of Syria and Palestine in the fourth century is known history in all its detail. He absorbed Syria. Tyre was obliterated. Her commerce destroyed to the amazement of her neighbors. Interestingly enough, not only was Gath spared in all of this, but another city was spared, the city of Sidon...Sidon did not share the same fate as Tyre.
Let's go back to the twenty-eighth chapter of Ezekiel and look at the city of Sidon. Twin cities, twenty miles north of Tyre is the city in ancient times called Sidon. Now apparently Sidon was the center of Baal worship, the worship of Ashteroth and Tammuz, the capital city, you could say, of idolatry. It had been founded and back in Genesis 10 by one of the sons of Canaan, Genesis chapter 10 verse 15. Now look at 28:22 and let's just see what the Bible says is going to happen to Sidon. Now it says, "The Lord God, behold, I am against you, O Sidon. I shall be glorified in your midst. Then they will know that I am the Lord when I execute judgments in her and I shall manifest My holiness in her, for I shall send pestilence to her and blood to her streets and the wounded shall fall in her midst by the sword upon her on every side, then they will know that I am the Lord."
Three things to point out...blood in the streets, swords everywhere and no ultimate destruction. Unlike Tyre, there's no statement that this city would not survive and today you can go there and find Sidon flourishing as the seaport city of Saida. But you won't find Tyre.
In 351 B.C. the city was ruled by Persia and it revolted and the Persian army besieged it, 351 B.C. When all hope of saving the city was gone, forty thousand citizens chose rather to die than submit to Persian vengeance. So what they did? They shut themselves up in their houses, set their houses on fire and died in the flames. It was a horrific way to die. But the city was rebuilt again and again and again and re-conquered again and again. Floyd Hamilton says, "Blood has flowed in the streets over and over but the city stayed in existence and stands today as a monument to fulfilled prophecy. It was taken three times by the Crusaders, three times by the Muslims, all by the sword. In 1840 it was bombarded by the combined fleets of England, France and Turkey. No human eye could have seen how in the future this city would be in a bloodbath induced by swords, but would never be extinct when one twenty miles down the coast would be extinct." But we aren't surprised because God knows the truth. One writer says, "No well accredited prophecy is found in any other book or even oral tradition now existing or that has ever been existing in the world." You can't find in any religious book in the world a well-attested and accurate fulfilled prophecy. The Bible is always exactly correct about everything.
Maybe I have time for one more. Ezekiel chapter 30, since we're having such a great time doing this. This one, chapter 30, Ezekiel chapter 30, let's go down to verse 13. And this is Egypt, not Tennessee, just for some of you. "Thus says the Lord God, I will also destroy the idols and make the images cease from Memphis and there will no longer be a prince in the land of Egypt and I will put fear in the land of Egypt, I will make Pathros desolate, set a fire in Zoan, and execute judgments on Thebes and I will pour out My wrath on Sin...with an upper case S, proper name...the stronghold of Egypt and I will also cut off the multitude of Thebes..."now we could stop at that point.
What does this say? It says about Memphis that the idols in Memphis will be destroyed. That's unmistakable. "I will destroy the idols and make the images cease from Memphis." It says Thebes will be destroyed, judgments will be executed on Thebes and the multitude will be cut off. That means they will be killed. Thebes destroyed and its population killed. And then that most interesting statement, "That there will no longer be...in verse 13...a prince in the land of Egypt." No more native ruler in Egypt.
Now let's start with Memphis. It was a very ancient and a very important place for the origins of religious worship in Egypt. It was regarded as a very sacred place because of its original religious beginning. It was the capital of what was called middle Egypt and it was the stronghold of religion and therefore the stronghold of idols. And God said it would be destroyed and its idols in particular would be destroyed. And that is exactly what happened to Memphis. The historian Herodotus records that Cambyses did that and he did that by first attacking the city called Sin, verse 15, the stronghold of Egypt, verse 15, "I'll pour out My wrath on Sin, the stronghold of Egypt." It was called Pelusium, the Greek term for it. It was the key to Egypt. It was the stronghold, and if you could break through at that point, you could conquer. Herodotus says that's where Cambyses came in and launched his attach which was successful.
Now the Egyptians were hopeless idolaters. In fact, they mummified cats. They mummified cats...you know about the holy cows in India, well they had holy cats and holy dogs and particularly cats were of interest to them because they had a cat goddess, Ugastet...Ugastet, the cat goddess and all the cats and they were all urchin cats, not domesticated cats. They all were basically the protectors of her honor, so they mummified cats when they died.
Well, Cambyses was pretty shrewd. They also worshiped dogs and so when he launched his attack against Pelusium, he launched it with a whole bunch of cats and dogs. And his army came following the cats and following the dogs. And because the animals were held to be so sacred in Egypt so that no Egyptian would use any weapon against those animals, he came in and won his victory. He slew Apis, the sacred cow and he began to destroy the idols and destroyed them all in Memphis. Memphis disappeared. It began at this point to disappear, its idols disappeared with it. Today archaeologists don't know where Memphis was. Likely it was the second largest city in Egypt and they can't find it.
I've been there, to that site, on one of my trips to Egypt. And I was absolutely fascinated to hear from the guide that there in that region although they do not know exactly where the city was, there in that region they have discovered ancient statutes buried face down in the sand that they date before Moses and after. And they find these statues with the face buried in the sand and the back rotted out. The Bible said that the idols of Memphis would be struck down, history says that's exactly what happened.
Then there were to be judgments on Thebes, according to verse 14. Cambyses, this Persian, invaded Egypt, brought destruction on Thebes, burning their temples, destroying all their statutes, but Thebes recovered for a while. Second blow came a century before Christ, 89 B.C. A siege was laid on Thebes for three years and when Thebes fell on that time in 89 B.C., it fell into complete oblivion. It was flattened, nothing left, fulfilling prophecy. Its people were killed, never returned. And again it was an amazing city. History says 66 feet was the height of the wall and 24 feet was the width.
When the Bible says something is going to happen, it's exactly what happens...exactly what happens. God judged that land from the top to the bottom, from Sin all the way to Thebes, top to bottom, and destroyed its idols.
The final prediction was that there would no longer be a prince in the land of Egypt. That would be the son of an Egyptian king. That has been fulfilled. From 350 B.C. and on Egypt has never had an Egyptian as a ruler. The famous rulers that you think about, Sadat, Abdulnasser, familiar names, neither of them was an Egyptian. They'll never have an Egyptian ruler, Scripture is accurate about that.
Jsk,
RE: Your May 15, 2008 9:08 AM
Comment
Very well thought out and well written. Thanks.
It is difficult to write in common terms of the intricacies of Geology, or any science. The problem with doing that (oversimplifying) is that there is no good way to convey the actual intricacies in the way the evidence is gathered, quantified, and calculated.
To actually understand the formation of the Grand Canyon, we need to have an understanding of the Geology, including the techtonics that produced the geology and hydraulics. It is fairly easy, once one understands the math, to calculate the exact forces involved in creating the Grand Canyon.
But, as Josh's next comment proves, he never read your post. He resides in his willful ignorance with his eyes closed.
A pity, that.
wdjd4jh,
I saw that debate before. Your post indicates that you indeed misunderstand evolution in the same way Kirk and Ray do and in the same way that the person to whom my post was responding does.
You also misunderstand what the Rational Responders were trying to explain. What they were explaining was the same point I was making, which is that Kirk deeply misrepresented the concept of a transitional form.
All of this should concern you greatly. You cannot understand basic science concepts at a layman's level.
With science and technology barreling forward and your beliefs stuck in ancient times, your ability to understand the world and usefully participate in it is diminishing by the moment.
Ray,
You are your own worst enemy.
You constanly show yourself as unethical.
A couple days ago you would not post an article on evolution by, I think Pvblivs, because it had 1500 words.
NOW, you post a comment full of tripe on bible prophecy that is 6,934 words long.
You are in no way a fair or consistant person and I am ashamed that you would pull a stunt like this. You are blatant in your inconsistency.
This author is spouting sheer crackpottery and you know it.
He makes no sense whatsoever.
And you wonder why we don't trust you. You have done it to yourself.
David_crichton,
The subject would have been better served if you would have been a bit more concise, say post a couple of these myths at a time.
Nobody is going to try to respond to all that tripe in one comment. It is absurd that you comment 6,900words unless you are intentionally trying to make sure that noone will want to respond.
Generally speaking, most of the events that are referred to here never happened. They are merely myth and fiction.
If you want to discuss the validity of a prphecy, post that prphecy and I will discuss it.
This is absurd for Ray to let you pull this stunt and it has no place on a blog of this type and that is by Ray's own words.
dale said... Ray,You are your own worst enemy. You constanly show yourself as unethical.
A couple days ago you would not post an article on evolution by, I think Pvblivs, because it had 1500 words.
NOW, you post a comment full of tripe on bible prophecy that is 6,934 words long.
You are in no way a fair or consistant person and I am ashamed that you would pull a stunt like this. You are blatant in your inconsistency."
Dale...6,934? Do you mean this "Nostradamus" post? There must be something wrong with your word-counter. Mine says 992. Can you recheck? Thanks.
Ray, does not need to tell you anything. He does not NEED to justify why he posts a comment, and the next one he does not.
He does not need to justify a posted topic. It is called "Freedom of Speech".
Exactly, Ray has no need for integrity. He can post whatever he likes with nothing supporting his wild assertions.
Dale...6,934? Do you mean this "Nostradamus" post? There must be something wrong with your word-counter. Mine says 992. Can you recheck? Thanks.
No ray, the comment by David Crichton
Ray,
Dale is referring to the fact that you allowed david_crichton's post through even though it is much longer than the evolution-related post you censored because you said it was too long.
Ray, you said,
"Dale...6,934? Do you mean this "Nostradamus" post? There must be something wrong with your word-counter. Mine says 992. Can you recheck? Thanks."
Ray, Sorry, I should have been more specific. A couple days ago, I think it was pvblivs that wrote a comment (actually an article) on evolution that you did not post because you said it had too many words (1500 I think.)
Now, you allow an article by commentor david crichton on May 15, 2008 9:53 AM which contains 6,934 words.
Capice?
Dale said:
David_crichton,
The subject would have been better served if you would have been a bit more concise, say post a couple of these myths at a time.
Nobody is going to try to respond to all that tripe in one comment. It is absurd that you comment 6,900words unless you are intentionally trying to make sure that noone will want to respond.
Generally speaking, most of the events that are referred to here never happened. They are merely myth and fiction.
If you want to discuss the validity of a prphecy, post that prphecy and I will discuss it.
This is absurd for Ray to let you pull this stunt and it has no place on a blog of this type and that is by Ray's own words.
Response:
First, thank you for your concern for my posting etiquette. I'll remember your advice next time.
As to the "sheer crackpottery" and "tripe" that I posted -- as I said in the beginning, the rest of the posting came from a message by Pastor John Macarthur preached several years ago. You can find the transcript at his web site. Just type "90-328" in the search box and then click on transcript.
Now back to your comment -- since you insist on calling what he said "myths" and basically calling him a liar, let's see you put your money where your mouth is, my friend, and prove what he says is wrong. Start off with an easy one -- the prophecy that Egypt would never have a prince that was the son of an Egyptian king. That should be easy enough. Now try your hand at the other ones.
"dale said... David_crichton,
The subject would have been better served if you would have been a bit more concise, say post a couple of these myths at a time.
Nobody is going to try to respond to all that tripe in one comment. It is absurd that you comment 6,900words unless you are intentionally trying to make sure that noone will want to respond.
Generally speaking, most of the events that are referred to here never happened. They are merely myth and fiction.
If you want to discuss the validity of a prphecy, post that prphecy and I will discuss it.
This is absurd for Ray to let you pull this stunt and it has no place on a blog of this type and that is by Ray's own words."
Dale...you are right. I don't remember seeing this comment. I will be more consistent in future. My apologies.
ex-atheist,
you are making some very Ray comfort like assumtions about my living there boy. I haven't committed any sins (even ridiculous christian ones) this week that I am aware of.
I guess you don't understand the free will point. You CANNOT have free will if the future is know.
will,
you didn't know. Could the outcome have been different? Yes, it could have, therefore you didn't factually know he would marry your sister.
God apparently knows without the possibility of being wrong exactly what will happen in the future. If you had had that kind of knowledge then your sisters husband to be would have had no choice. He would be absolutely certain to marry her and nothing he could do would change that.
I hope you understand the distinction between your believing rightly (on good evidence) that this man would marry your sister and you knowing (with absolute cast-iron certainty)
If God knew before you were even born that you were going to go to hell. Is there anything you could do about it?
Wow,
The free will point is really confusing the fundies. At least most of the time it is a misunderstanding but ex-athiest must be having a laugh.
ex-atheist said:
God knows the future 100%. He’s ordained the future 100%. Does that mean every detail of your life is deterministic? Nope. That would be the conclusion of naturalistic materialism. It does mean that God’s will, will be done.
Ex-Athiest, that really is a silly statement. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your religion is clouding an otherwise sound mind.
If God knows the future 100% then you have absolutely no free will what-so-ever. you have only the illusion of free will because you yourself don't know the predetermined outcome of your every thought and action. God already knows what cereal you will have for breakfast. You cannot have any other type of cereal. You can pray all you want, God knew before you born whether you were going to hell or not. NOTHING you do can change that.
You also said
You do not have the “will power to change” – you need a new heart with new desires. Only God can give you that.
Thats just hilarious. So people are simply victims of God's whim. He decides who he will grace with salvation and who he will not. Nothing the people themselves can do about it. Why does God not give one of these Heart 2.0 upgrades to everyone. I guess he's just being mean.
Emily,
An Atheist cannot hate God. In order to hate God, you would have to believe he existed. Do you understand?
You (I assume) deny the existance of fairies. Does that mean you hate fairies?
Why do I come here?
Several reasons.
The first reason is that Ray's views are so outrageous that there is a wierd facination in it for me.
The Second reason is something along the lines of wanting to try to help people. If loads of people were roped into some crazy cult, wouldn't you try to help them to break free of it. I am far from perfect though and I rarely have the patience to deal with deliberate ignorence or willful ignoring of fact without resorting to some manner of derision. In fairness though, Ray kind of sets the tone one that one. Loads of commenters have been giving out to dale for name calling. Ray on the hand accuses Atheists of all kinds of things and not a peep about it from the sycophants. I have always tried to live a good and honorable life and I do get a little cheesed off when some clown starts telling me I'm all things evil because I don't believe what it says in his storybook. And please don't bother with the 'no one is without sin' gibberish. I am not claiming to have lived a 100% perfect life. Even the Jesus of your story book could not manage that.
I don't hate God but what I do hate is seeing vulnerable people falling victim to the nonsense peddled by snake-oil salesmen like Ray. You and your fellow Christians have been sold a laughably ridiculous fantasy by parasites who make their living from exploiting your 'faith'. Faith being lauded as a virtue is the best move that religions ever managed to pull off. It is essentially saying
"Believe me because I tell you to believe me, don't ask questions or exspect any evidence." You wouldn't buy that from someone trying to sell you a second-hand vacumn cleaner but when it comes the really big questions, you will believe anything. Seems really strange to me. I am not saying that you believe because you lack the good sense to spot BS when you hear it, it just that your desire to believe it overcomes your good sense. Inside every Christian is a decent, reasonable person struggling to get out :)
Hey Ray, quick! Make some more money peddling your wares in the temple. Write some more books. Wait.... How did Jesus feel about that whole profiting from religion bit again?
Have you ever just considered the possibility that it might not be true? Does even thinking about considering that scare you? It is understandable that it would. Ray can't stop banging on about how everyone is doomed. The perverse nothing of Hell is frightning indeed. Well if you think it might exist anyway. Let me pose a simple question. Answer honestly if you dare.
Let me clear. I am NOT looking for a biblical answer. I do not care what scripture has to say on the matter. I am looking for your personal opinion. What is you gut instint answer?
Does the idea of torturing someone for infinity (without any possibility of parole) seem like a punishment that a benevolent and FORGIVING God could impose?
I would be interested in the honest opinions of anyone who cares to answer. Please no answers of the 'who are we to question God?' variety. I am not asking you to question God. I am asking you to tell the truth. How do you feel about it? What is your instinct on it?
Ray,
Re: Your May 15, 2008 12:18 PM Comment. And Thanks.
You said,
"Dale...you are right. I don't remember seeing this comment. I will be more consistent in future. My apologies."
Ray, Thank you for your consideration on this matter. I do appreciate it.
So, moving on, could it have been an oversight on your part that Clos got banned? Please re-evalute your position on this. I think you are being too harsh, but this is your place and I will eternally honor that.
Respectfully Submitted, ?d
I love the long post by David_.
The message by John Macarthur he posted says,"I remember a few weeks before I came here to be the pastor of Grace Community Church back in February of 1969, not long before that, United States Space Agency was making its efforts to place a man on the moon. And a gentleman was invited to speak here at Grace Church, a pastor who had been preaching for many years, and he came on a Sunday night and he preached on the subject,'Why God will never allow man to reach the moon.' And he had what he thought were all kinds of biblical reasons for that viewpoint. Well obviously he was wrong and shortly after that he made that terrible error in judgment and discernment, he was proven to be wrong and for all that I know that was really the end of people's confidence in him."
Thanks for including that snippet. As i read it, I pictured Ray up there belting out his bible quotes and somehow using an analogy involving a wheel of cheese to illustrate his point.
I'm sure this man and some of his minions believed this 110%. They had the word of God, which is inerrant, to back them up, much like we see here.
Ray, someday you're going to be the guy people will look back at as the kookie but likable guy on the boardwalk, who was always belting out tracts and crazy end of the world hype to scare people into salvation.
Word is Bond!
~Atomic Chimp
Atomic Chimp said... "...crazy end of the world hype to scare people into salvation."
I doubt it atomic Chimp. Ray will be remembered by saints as faithful. God bless you Ray, may the Lord continue to be glorified though your ministry.
Atomic Chimp said...
You CANNOT have free will if the future is know.
That's not true.
I know that you'll post another comment on Ray's blog in the future - do I now control your will?
(I quoted the wrong chimp)
The Celtic Chimp said...
"You CANNOT have free will if the future is known."
That's not true.
I know that you'll comment again on Ray's blog in the future - do I now control your will?
to david crichton...
don't buy the tribe and dribble or whatever agnostieviolutionaryists are telling you about posting prophecies one at a time...I went that route a couple of days ago and it was a ghost blog out here to me...truth is, if you have sound examples you will GET NO REPLY AT ALL!!!
anybody remember the bar code post (666-mark of the beast)???
what about the one after -- the travel to and fro post???
how about my favorite...the tiny resort land named ISRAEL???
oh wait a minute -- nick did reply to my to and fro -- yeah he took offense to the #s i darted out and not to the content -- CLASSIC!!!
L8er, (or not)
andrew w.
dale said
"In the meantime, your statements only show you to be churlish and lazy about what the real science says."
Thank you I have not seen so much affection in a post for quite some time. Quick to resort to the name callining heh? I have been to the Grand Canyoun, and it screams Gods flood. You are free to believe what you want, and call me whatever you want. But that river did not create that canyon, and no college course will change that...but thanks for your genuine concern.
Respectfully wdjd4jh
dale said
"People that repeat brainless drivel that they hear from ignorant people are easy to detect. I don't think you want to continue on that course. do you?"
I went back and reread what I posted...and you need to apologize. The only "brainless drivel" that was in the post was the talkorgins post. I have never in my life read so much "crack pottery" as the garbage they post as an answer to anything. Nice way to answer any of the stuff...just give your patented atheistic...go get an education…God did not do it…and you are stupid for acting like he did answer. I will not spend good money for a professor to get behind his pulpit, and tell me lies. Again thanks just for your kind words.
Respectfully wdjd4jh
jsk said
“which seems impossible (rain forests next to deserts next to arctic tundra next to...?)”
See…this is what I am talking about! Now this planet has these features…do you or them know for a fact that it did then?
“see the talk origins reviews of his book) claimed 15,750 animals could fit.”
You guys need to get talkorgins to print you a Bible for all this stuff. Then you guys could read these to you children at night…so they do not get duped by the Christians.
“is only worth considering if you have studied the literature on the subject and are capable of pointing to its flaws. Have you? Are you?”
Excuse me…but just reading all of this, and studying it would still not qualify me.
“But if you disregard all ideas about the uniformity of nature, you are no longer in the realm of science, so what is the point of even asking for “scientific proof”?”
The point is that you dismiss the fact that the planet pre-flood may have been completely different than it is now! I was asking for scientific proof that the world pre-flood was in fact the same as it is today. I am not the one dismissing stuff…you look at the world today, and say it has always been this way. You are dismissing the fact that was not as it is today. We have found Mammoths with food still undigested in its stomach…so where is the dino with a gut full of cow? Or the cat with a gut full of antelope?
“that nothing could have survived it.’
That was the point…what was in the ark was all that survived!
“But simply saying “where's the proof” when somebody has offered you a set of calculations which (if correct)”
Atheists do this daily on this blog!
“You are in no position to pound the table demanding “proof”
I am not pounding the table…I was asking for proof. Why does one demand so much sediment, and the other have more time and less sediment?
“(“The bullet taken from the scene matches bullets from the defendant's gun? So? Were you there when the bullet was fired? How do you know that the laws of ballistics weren't different three days ago?”)”
Physical laws do not change…but our planet sure could have! The law of gravity will be the same tomorrow, but my body weight may not. Time will still be the same tomorrow, but I may have more gray hairs. Prove that the world was the same as it is today pre-flood!
“first he places overwhelming evidence that the earth was old and a global flood never took place, in fact makes it seem “impossible!” to believe that the earth was young and an Ark saved all life, thus “baiting” us into suspecting the Bible of being less than entirely accurate; then, the switch! we all go to hell for not following the Bible's instructions.”
I do not see the proof for the old earth at all. You feel the evidence is overwhelming…I do not. The only thing that “seems to be impossible”, is for you to believe. I was not doing any bait and switch. I read the whole article, and all it was, was one mans view of how it could not have possibly happened the way God said. God is not baiting anyone either, most would rather believe anything…but the dreaded God did it. You’re not going to go to Hell for following the Bible…that’s talkorgins job. I would write talkorgins…but do you really think they care what I think? I was sincerely asking because when I read the article that was all that was in it…it just cannot have happened the way God said.
“I think you need a better role model.”
He is going to beat talkorgins when I die!
Respectfully wdjd4jh
ex-Atheist,
I have explained the free will point several times now. I hope that last comment was a joke. If it wasn't, then the point is either beyond you or you are just being intellectually lazy.
The Celtic Chimp said...
An Atheist cannot hate God. In order to hate God, you would have to believe he existed. Do you understand?
Do you think you know for sure that the Creator doesn't exist?
The Celtic Chimp said...
If God knows the future 100% then you have absolutely no free will what-so-ever.
Free will is a miracle all on it's own and proves to me that God exists. Just imagine trying to give free will to dead matter. No one on this planet can do that and I believe no one ever will. Take a few courses in AI and you will realise just how far away from giving a machine free will. I see free will as only possible because God created it; only someone extremely powerful can do something as amazing as free will. It's actually a common atheistic viewpoint that free will is an illusion, we are just acting out our DNA code.
The Celtic Chimp said...
Let me clear. I am NOT looking for a biblical answer. I do not care what scripture has to say on the matter. I am looking for your personal opinion. What is you gut instint answer?
Does the idea of torturing someone for infinity (without any possibility of parole) seem like a punishment that a benevolent and FORGIVING God could impose?
You should be interested in what Scripture has to say since the phrase eternal torment is not found once in the entire Bible regarding mankind. This notion of eternal torment is in my mind terrible beyond words and I so wish it could be erased from so called Christianity. The Bible is clear, the wages of sin is death and it's a just thing because God is the source of life and sin separates the sinner from God and the sinner doesn't have any source of life in him so he will die.
@wdjd4jh
I have been to the Grand Canyoun, and it screams Gods flood. You are free to believe what you want, and call me whatever you want. But that river did not create that canyon, and no college course will change that...but thanks for your genuine concern.
So that's what the world looks like after God's flood? The flood was global, so we should see canyons like that everywhere, right? Where are they?
Why doesn't it "scream flood" to trained geologists?
It looks like an eroded river basin to me, and no amount of bible-thumping is going to change that.
WdJ,
"I have been to the Grand Canyoun, and it screams Gods flood."
And what is the evidence that is "screaming?"
wdjd4jh,
I am sorry that you have such an irrational mistrust of science.
In most cases,people like you have been culturally conditioned into your religious beliefs at a very young age.
If you will not study geology in any way, it is useless for you to try to argue against it.
I ask again, what is your evidence for your flood creating the GC?
anybody remember the bar code post (666-mark of the beast)???
what about the one after -- the travel to and fro post???
how about my favorite...the tiny resort land named ISRAEL???
Why would a bar code be the mark of the beast?
Travel to and fro? People have been traveling to and fro for ever. The passage is presumably this one "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
The running to and fro would seem to be more an illusion to the search for knowledge rather than actual physical movement.
And Jews returning to Israel ... well the Jews have been subject to capture and division for as long as they have been writing the bible and there are plenty of references to the future when the house of Israel will be reunited. Jews have been returning to the Holy Land for over 900 years and it was the rise in violence between Arabs and Jews which led the British to split Palestine between the Jewish and Arab communities in 1947 and the state of Israel was reborn. Did the world come to an end?
wdjd4jh:
You continue to ask for “proof,” and yet you do not respond to my invitation to define what you mean by “testable scientific proof” and explain how you know when you've seen it. I think it's futile to continue a discussion if every argument I present can just be met with “but that's not proof” and no more substantial argument is considered necessary. Quickly, though:
Do you or them know for a fact that [the world had deserts and rain forests] then?
Geologists do think they know this beyond reasonable doubt.
Excuse me…but just reading all of this, and studying it would still not qualify me.
How, then, are you in a position to say “show me”? How do you know whether the objections you raise are reasonable, whether they have been answered already, whether they even make sense, unless you have some qualifications in the subjects?
We have found Mammoths with food still undigested in its stomach…so where is the dino with a gut full of cow?
Google “dinosaur diet evidence” and the first entry includes this: “Well-preserved dinosaur skeletons sometimes have traces of apparent food items preserved in their abdominal cavity, where it's safe to assume that they had a stomach. This includes pine cones and/or needles in some herbivores' guts, and traces of some vertebrates in some theropods' guts.” You might also look up “coprolite.”
That was the point…what was in the ark was all that survived!
No, if Isaak's conclusions are correct, the ark would also have been destroyed, and so would all sea life and plant life. He made this quite clear. So if Isaak is right, the Ark story is scientifically impossible: the very thing you were asking for, scientific proof that something couldn't have happened! We can see from your response that you were never really serious about asking for such proof. I asked if you knew how to refute these calculations*; I asked how you could expect to be taken seriously if you just went on saying “where's the proof” when somebody has offered you an argument which (if correct) did constitute proof; your only answer was “Atheists do this daily on this blog!”
Aren't you embarrassed to present such a childish non-answer? You really can't expect people to invest time considering and responding to your arguments if you treat the discussion process with such contempt.
*Actually I shouldn't have said "calculations," since Isaak didn't provide the numbers, but there are other Flood-skeptics who have provided them.
Hi Mofi,
Thanks for your comments.
Do I think I know for sure that the Creator doesn't exist?
No, I don't know for sure. It is possible that some incredibly powerful entity does exist. I personally don't believe it very likely based on the lack of evidence for such a being. The nature of the world should be sufficient for any sensible person to realise that if such a being does exist, it is most certainly not Yahweh. I cannot know for certain. I'll leave that kind of pretend certainty to the religious. I can be fairly sure though. Can I know for absolutely certain that unicorns don't exist. No. Not with 100% epistemological certainty, but I can be pretty damn sure.
I agree with you that free will is very impressive. I am a software developer by trade and have already studied AI. I agree that it will be a while yet before computers can think for themselves. Neural networks have proven interesting though. I personally think that free will (intelligent, goal driven thinking) is an emergant property. Millions of tiny weighted calculations (relatively simple processes in themselves) with the ability to predict likely outcomes in a massive feedback loop creates awesome thinking power. The brain is a very impressive organ. I don't see divinity in that though. It is a matter of complexity. Whilst insects essentially have the same free will we do, the processing power available to them is much more limited. It essentially results in far fewer options. They are almost like mini robots following their programming. Do they really have free will? I for one don't honestly know if I would say yes or no to that. I do have to strongly disagree that it is a common Atheistic viewpoint that free will is an illusion. I certainly (and I have met many an Atheist) have never met a single person of any worldview that thought free will was an illusion. Read Ex-Atheists comments, he is essentially saying our free will is inhibited by God.
I don't know if you read my earlier comments on free will, but do you see the problem that God's perfect foreknowledge presents to free will?
On Eternal torture, I'm reasonably sure (I'll have to check) that hell and indeed firey torment are mentioned. If Hell is only non-existance, then I am happy to state with near certainty that I (like everyone else) is going to Hell. Such a hell holds no fear for me. I accepted a long time ago that when I die, that's it. I am gone. I can honestly say that have grown accustomed to the idea and really don't think I would like to continue existing forever. That sounds more like a punishment than a reward. I wouldn't mind being able to extend my human life by a few hundred years maybe but the idea of sitting around as some mindless rapt worship bot for the almighty ego does not sound at all appealing.
Do you realise Ray that God knowing the future completely eliminates any possiblity that free will exists?
CC,
Many are called. Few are chosen.
If I were on the outside looking in, such as you are. I would at least have a prayer in my heart to want to know the truth and humbly be willing to hear God.
Seeing into the future and knowing who will come to power and what they will choose does not take from your free will to choose to repent or not. You are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. It is up to you to choose. Your name can just as easily be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.
If everyone's decision to repent were a foregone conclusion, there would be no reason for all of heaven to rejoice when one sinner repents. The reaction would be more like, --Yawnnn--"Vera finally repented like we knew she would all along. Too bad bout that CC."
No, the day you repent, ALL of heaven will rejoice because your free will decision will make for one big happy moment.
Vera
I do hope this finally end the false claim that Einstein was a religious man. He wasn't, just believe it :-)
C3PO,
We watched a documentary on Einstein and judging from his nefarious love life, it wasn't hard to realize that if he did claim to be religious or Christian or whatever, he was under the same strong delusion most others like him are under. No sinner will inherit the kingdom. You must be set free. That is the kind of fruit that doesn't follow a true believer. You must repent.
Vera
dale said
"I am sorry that you have such an irrational mistrust of science.
In most cases, people like you have been culturally conditioned into your religious beliefs at a very young age."
I could say this about you instead! I was not "culturally conditioned", my mom did not see church, religion, or Christianity any more important than you. You in fact are the one with the “Irrational mistrust" of Christianity. You do in fact need to mistrust religion, but you have never tried to differentiate the two. I have seen the Grand Canyon, and that little river did not make that awesome hole in the ground…not in a billion years. That is not even looking at it in a religious way…it just would take more faith to say the river did it…than to see how God could have. I put my stuff up there the last time, and all you did was mock it any way. The only difference between you and me…is I have never been preached too by a professor from his pulpit. This is a quote off a page that I have done some reading on for the subject. You can buy this mans book to read his own statement.
“Though scientists have studied the canyon for more than 150 years, a definitive answer as to how or when the canyon formed eludes them. The one thing scientists do agree on is that the canyon was carved by the erosive power of the Colorado River, but the river itself has carried away the evidence of its earlier history.” Wayne Ranney, Carving the Grand Canyon: Evidence, Theories, and Mystery (Grand Canyon, Arizona: Grand Canyon Association, 2005), back cover.
And on this I would say I do not care if everyone on the planet agreed with them…the most who believe does not determine true. It takes more faith to believe the river than God.
The following is off the same article.
“Children loved John Hance, and to them he always explained how the canyon came into being. “I dug it,” he would say simply. This story worked well for years until one little four-year-old girl asked seriously, “And where did you put the dirt?” Hance had no ready answer; he never used that story again. But it bothered him the rest of his life, and when he was dying he whispered to his waiting friends, “Where do you suppose I could have put that dirt?””
“That question still bothers geologists, because if the Colorado River carved the canyon, as commonly assumed, there should be a gigantic river delta where the Colorado River enters the Gulf of California. Instead, the delta is relatively tiny.”
Iaask had a problem I seem to remember with where all the sediment was…well where is this sediment? And just remember it does still bother the geologists!
Here is just a sampling of the many theories they have.
“All explanations for the Grand Canyon’s origin try to answer this question. Some say that the river was once a mile or more higher, and the land it flowed over eroded away. As it did, the river settled down on top of the Kaibab Plateau and cut through it—a process called superposition. Others say the river cut through the Kaibab Plateau along a fault (or crack). However, faults are generally perpendicular to the Colorado River, not parallel. Some state that the land under the river rose, forming the Kaibab Plateau. As it did, the river cut down through the rising plateau. Two theories say that a stream flowing down a western slope of the Colorado Plateau continuously eroded eastward 130 miles and eventually cut through the Kaibab Plateau—a process called headward erosion. (Notice how dependent these explanations are on millions of years of time, and how many untestable explanations can be proposed if millions of years are imagined.)”
You are free to continue with your “irrational mistrust” of Christianity…but as for your “all scientists know how the Canyon was formed”…give it to someone else. I’m not buying it…infact I’m not even going to rent it. I was not saved until I was close to 40 years old, and before that I had as much use for God as I now have for Universities. Science I love, and there are many wonderful things that science has uncovered…but when they controdict my God…that is where I draw the line.
Respectfully wdjd4jh
john doyle said
"It looks like an eroded river basin to me, and no amount of bible-thumping is going to change that."
Too bad you have allowed the world to thump you instead. That river did not create it...sorry. I forget exactly when did I try to thump you with my Bible?
Respectfully wdjd4jh
Anyone who makes this claim is either lying, or uncritically accepting the word of a liar as a fact. All you need to do is read the text of the Council of Trent, which can be found on Wikipedia and other sources.
I have read some of the catechisms and was really surprised that it includes specific words that match Scripture such as 1 Cor. 6:9-11. I do believe those that they left this work to (the Popes) concerning the Word over time caused it to become a matter of two things - the Latin Vulgate and the fact that most people at that time couldn't read. There is no question that Pope Urban II was not speaking under the anointing of the Holy Spirit when he told these illiterates that they would earn a place in heaven if they went out and killed. How ridiculous is that? That admonition is not one place in Scripture. But I think you are right that some during and throughout history before the printing press, did get their hands on a Bible and were set free from sin. Praise God!
Vera
Too bad you have allowed the world to thump you instead. That river did not create it...sorry. I forget exactly when did I try to thump you with my Bible?
Respectfully wdjd4jh
Your plausible alternative is that it was created by 40 days of rain? You will have to thump me senseless with your bible before I agree to accept that explanation.
The Celtic Chimp
No, I don't know for sure. It is possible that some incredibly powerful entity does exist. I personally don't believe it very likely based on the lack of evidence for such a being.
Since we know with quite a lot of certainty that the universe had a beginning, is it logical to assume that an incredibly powerful being caused the creation of the universe?
The Celtic Chimp
The nature of the world should be sufficient for any sensible person to realise that if such a being does exist, it is most certainly not Yahweh.
If God exists, what would be your best evidence or reason to exclude the God of the Bible?
The Celtic Chimp
Millions of tiny weighted calculations (relatively simple processes in themselves) with the ability to predict likely outcomes in a massive feedback loop creates awesome thinking power.
Do you think that free will and consciousness is the product of just a lot of calculations?
The Celtic Chimp
I don't know if you read my earlier comments on free will, but do you see the problem that God's perfect foreknowledge presents to free will?
Since I see God being outside of time then it makes perfect sense that He knows the future. If God caused the universe than God has to be outside of the realm of time. The main objection seems to be that if God knows what you will do, then you can't have a say in the matter. For me, this is where God chooses to abandon His will and allow us to use this amazing gift that free will is. If God is all powerful, couldn't He decide to do this?
The Celtic Chimp
On Eternal torture, I'm reasonably sure (I'll have to check) that hell and indeed firey torment are mentioned.
There is fire and there is torment according to one's sins but never eternal torment. People read this doctrine into a few passages and dismiss all those who state it clearly that the wicked will be destroyed, will die and go up in smoke.
The Celtic Chimp
Such a hell holds no fear for me. I accepted a long time ago that when I die, that's it. I am gone.
I do believe that God does not want to force eternal existence upon anyone that doesn't want it. But I doubt you have really thought this through. It's a lot easier to think that one day you'll be fine with dying but would it be a lot different if that day was tomorrow?
The Celtic Chimp
I can honestly say that have grown accustomed to the idea and really don't think I would like to continue existing forever. That sounds more like a punishment than a reward.
It certainly would be a punishment if it was a world like the one we live in. Certainly if it was in a body like ours which aches and tires and wears out. But I see a life without aches and pain and a whole universe to explore and be finally able to enjoy life that isn't in the shadow of death and deceases and where millions are in pain every day.
I at least hope you understand why I find it appealing and why I find the idea to die and never have another thought again, never enjoy anything again, whether it's good food or enjoy the company of the one's I love terrible.
john doyle said
"Your plausible alternative is that it was created by 40 days of rain? You will have to thump me senseless with your bible before I agree to accept that explanation."
I still did not attempt to thump you with my Bible...for that would be atleast quoting a verse! This just shows the contempt that you have for Christians.
Respectfully wdjd4jh
Wdjd4jh,
I've read this guy's Ranney's tripe.
I don't know where is is coming from but he is very wrong and I can prove it.
But first, he states "The one thing scientists do agree on is that the canyon was carved by the erosive power of the Colorado River, but the river itself has carried away the evidence of its earlier history.” Wayne Ranney
He admits up front that all geologists know the GC was formed by the erosion of the River.
First of all, every geologist on the face of the earth knows exactly where the contents of the Grand Canyon is located. It is located in the Colorado River Delta. It has been measured and examined and all the evidence is right there.
It was fashionable a few years ago for Creationists to claim the Colorado doesn't have a delta but google Colorado river Delta ansd you can see pictures of it from space.
Plus, even though the part of the landscape was washed away, both sides bordering it are right where they have been for millions of years. That wasn't washed away and it is an exact cut-away of what was there. His statement that the evidence was washed away is totally bogus.
You keep saying, "That river did not create it...sorry.," yet your source assures us that geologists agree that the river did create it. sorry.
His assertion that the delta is tiny is a lie. The part above water is like the tip of an iceberg. The delta is over a million acres and the AVERAGE depth is 20,000 feet thick.
I have never heard of any geologist, and I have been around a lot of them, mention that they were bothered about the size of the delta. If you can point me to say, five or so, I'd eat my hat.
So you read one book by some crackpot creationist geologist and ignore the other three million geologists the world over.
That is illogical.
Dear Atheists
Thank you for establishing that you have to be logically consistent. You say there is no proof for the existence of God but as far as logic goes, in order to be consistent you have to have the other side of the argument which says, "There is no proof that God does not exist" In order for you to be intellectually honest you would have to declassify yourselves as atheists and take on the moniker of agnostic. To deny the existence of something or someone does not make that object or person cease to exist it just means that your belief system won't allow you to believe in or admit to the existence of that something or someone. In this case your denial is the existence of God. This is exactly what the Bible says about those who are trapped in their unbelief. Congratulations! You have just proven a Biblical truth.
The real issue here is a heart issue and not a head issue. You say a good loving, forgiving God will not send send anyone to hell for eternal punishment.(I am paraphrasing) It is your heart that dictates your destination. The crimes you have committed in word, thought (think about that), and deed are what cry out for justice. Justice is also a part of Who God is along with those other remarkable attributes. Punishment is what we deserve because we are lawbreakers.We made the call to sin. Why should a just and Holy God overlook our trespasses? If He did He would neither be just or Holy.The fact that you cannot believe in a God who would send people to hell who deserve it is evidence that you have broken the 1st and 2nd Commandments at least.
dale said
“He admits up front that all geologists know the GC was formed by the erosion of the River.”
This man now knows everything about every geologist on the planet? No wonder you can claim evolution as fact…you just need one guy, and one statement! There is so much more to a debate Dale…so much more.
"You keep saying, "That river did not create it...sorry.," yet your source assures us that geologists agree that the river did create it. sorry."
“First of all, every geologist on the face of the earth knows exactly where the contents of the Grand Canyon is located. It is located in the Colorado River Delta. It has been measured and examined and all the evidence is right there.”
How you got every geologist on the face of the planet from that quote...is beyond me! He makes a general statement about geologists in general...not every geologist on the planet! And it is not in that delta!
“It was fashionable a few years ago for Creationists to claim the Colorado doesn't have a delta but google Colorado river Delta ansd you can see pictures of it from space.”
He never said that there was not a delta…he said it was not as big as it should be…where’s the dirt?
“Plus, even though the part of the landscape was washed away, both sides bordering it are right where they have been for millions of years. That wasn't washed away and it is an exact cut-away of what was there. His statement that the evidence was washed away is totally bogus.”
Where’s the dirt? That is one huge hole…where’s the dirt?
“You keep saying, "That river did not create it...sorry.," yet your source assures us that geologists agree that the river did create it. sorry.”
Ok again it does not matter how many agree about it or not…that is not the yardstick for truth! Sorry! OJ Simpson got off Scot-free because twelve people “agreed” to let him off!
“I have never heard of any geologist, and I have been around a lot of them, mention that they were bothered about the size of the delta. If you can point me to say, five or so, I'd eat my hat.”
Well there you have it…you win!
“So you read one book by some crackpot creationist geologist and ignore the other three million geologists the world over.
That is illogical.”
Ok now you taken for granted who I have even read…I guess you are like psychic huh? Are you sure…I mean absolutely positive that there is not a crackpot or two in those three million books? Just askin!
Respectfully wdjd4jh
Ron, Well said.
wdjd4jh,
The.dirt.is.in.the.delta.
What part of that do you not understand?
There is absolute proof that the contents of the GC are in the delta of the river.
No matter how many crackpots you want to believe, you can get these core samples and do the math for yourself.
What if I just blurt out, There is no KT Boundry, like so many of you like to do, it is still there.
You are rediculous.
wdjd4jh,
You don't even have the simplest clue what you are talking about. You are a fraud, and a phoney. You only repeat what was told to you by other ignorant people.
JOHNY DOYLE your up...
first off, thank you for putting virtually no effort into that reply about 666, to and fro, and israel posts -- if you had gone back and read them you would have noted that i said:
'So, before you say that "barcode is mark comment" {AND YOU SAID IT/NOT BAD PROPHECY THERE}-- realize that is not what i am saying (learned that from ROB PENN)'
REFRESHER: virtually every barcode has 2 little lines that show up at the beginning, middle, and end of it -- those two little lines are represented in computer code as dot,dot,& dot (no dashes) -- this makes 6 the fastest to recognize # of zero through nine to a computer...hence 666 was chosen!!!
to clarify -- i am saying that there had to be a mechanism for this tiny chip placed on the hand or forehead to track every product on earth to be bought and sold...Ta Da -- UBC is now on virtually everything bought and sold...when the Bible says let him who has wisdom -- that means TO ME that you gotta connect the dots...
it will be a microchip combined with some sort of antichrist symbol that uses barcodes (666) to track every purchase...
now lets go to the tracking mechanism -- how can they physically track all the purchases for all them billions of people on the earth...they already have computers that can calculate up to 1000 calculations per second for every idividual on the planet simultaneously...
LET'S MOVE ON TO the TO AND FRO...
Mr Doyles quote is: Travel to and fro? People have been traveling to and fro for ever.
It just doesn't get any more close minded than that -- you point out that the options are TO AND FRO = WALK or TO AND FRO = THINKING??? why can't TO AND FRO = AIRPLANES AND MERCEDES??? Oh yeah, because then it makes sense for someone who walked his whole life or rode a donkey to say that people would travel speedily as a prophecy (long before planes, trains, and automobiles -- we've had them approximately 100 years now)...it does not make sense for someone from the Bibles' time that walked everywhere to write down that at the time of the end people will WALK "here and there" -- that's insane...Did you really think that through before you typed it John???
Lastly, let's see what Doyle said about Israel..."Jews have been returning to the Holy Land for over 900 years and it was the rise in violence between Arabs and Jews which led the British to split Palestine between the Jewish and Arab communities in 1947 and the state of Israel was reborn. Did the world come to an end?"
I am going to go out on a limb and say that mr Doyle (as well as myself) never made the pilgimage to Israel before 1947...so let's take a word from someone who was there (1867)...Mr. Mark Twain: "...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."
Let's immediately follow that up with scripture: EZEKIAL 36 vs 34... the desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it.
God cursed the land and exhiled the jews for 2000 years - there are other verses to throw at this topic -- but the point is that the land stayed desolate until the jews returned...can't say that was written after it happened can we!!!
L8er, andrew w.
Andrew Doyle said :
REFRESHER: virtually every barcode has 2 little lines that show up at the beginning, middle, and end of it -- those two little lines are represented in computer code as dot,dot,& dot (no dashes) -- this makes 6 the fastest to recognize # of zero through nine to a computer...hence 666 was chosen!!!
endquote
That has so many levels of fail in it that it makes my brain reel from the sheer level of it.
I would suggest that you actually take a look beyond whoever told you that.
Another small point too, thenumber of the beast has been shown to not be 666. The oldest copy of the Book of Revelation has the number of the beast as 616.
Now I am going to guess that you are going to say that it is all a massive conspiracy or cover up or misinterpretation etc etc etc. Well there is online a picture of the scroll section.
Go have fun bye bye
dale said
"You are a fraud, and a phoney."
I would love for you to tell everyone here what I said I was ...so that you can tell them what I am faking...or being phoney about? I am a Christian...so of course your world view is in opposition to mine. Again the best you can do is belittle, and put down people who do not share your world view...how intolerant!
Respectfully wdjd4jh
IAGO...i am still here and LOVIN it!!!
first off -- andrew w. & Doyle are two different nuts...so you had one error before you actually started to try thinking...
iago said..."I would suggest that you actually take a look beyond whoever told you that."
(paraphrase -- ignore it cause it's true!!!)
recall that i said this was audience participation -- nobody has to tell you this iago -- just start looking at the barcodes every time you drink a coke or stand in checkout line...and when you do, just say Andrew every time it has the two little 666 lines in the front, middle, and end!!! (Cause i will be right 99% of the time.)
iago also said..."Another small point too, the number of the beast has been shown to not be 666."
so, iago has one scroll that says 616 from a picture on the internet -- while the entire whole of christianity has the number 666 in the Bible that they use -- who looks desperate here???(revelation 13 verse 18 btw)...
I am giving you concise and concrete prophetic proof (simple odds are 1 in a thousand with a three digit #) and you are still scratching for straws iago...
quick recap: Bible says "think hard -- mark of beast will be number of a man "666"...now we have barcodes on everything bought and sold -- "666"...i know the athiests don't want us to put 2 and 2 together but the antichrist is soon going to!
get a snickers iago -- i'm going nowhere (til Jesus says to)...andrew w
The 666/616 consideration is interesting because the both can be matched to the name of the same person (one by Greek spelling, the other by Roman spelling.) Somehow, I don't think that Nero is coming back.
If you cast a wide enough net you can find any given short pattern somewhere. But the things Andrew describes aren't marked to represent a person. Also a code of 6590246763126 (number fictitious, 6's emphasized for Andrew's supposed point) isn't actually a representation of the number 666. That would require that the digits be grouped together and not in a mix of other digits.
i give you mad props for coming to the aid of your mentally slain comrad pvblivs...but i must crush your posts too...
pvblivs said..."But the things Andrew describes aren't marked to represent a person. Also a code of 6590246763126 (number fictitious, 6's emphasized for Andrew's supposed point) isn't actually a representation of the number 666. That would require that the digits be grouped together and not in a mix of other digits"
it appears you are quite out of your element when it comes to the field of statistics pvblivs -- better swim on back to the island of evilution!!!
POINT 1) NO - i specifically said in my recap that 666 is not the mark of the beast -- just a means to his (antichrists) ends...how often have i seen the smoke in my life before i have seen the fires!!!
POINT 2) your code of 6590246763126 means little on it's own -- but WHEN virtually everything bought and sold follows the stated pattern of xyyyyyxyyyyyx where x=6 and y=product control numbers then we definately have a numerical pattern of 666 evident!!!
POINT C)...my point is not SUPPOSED -- it's right there stamped in concrete on virtually every product bought and sold at the superwalmarts of this world...take the one week challenge pvblivs -- see how many times you can come up with the 666 pattern in all the barcodes you run across now that you know what the sequence is about!!!
Only God could have told you how the antichrist is going to track everything so that no man shall buy or sell without the mark of the beast...after telling you that the antichrist will make it that no man shall buy or sell without hIS mark...and you say Bible = vague prophecies LOL!!!
is that cracks in your armor of evilution i see there pvblivs???
my hope is for you...andrew w.
Pvblivs said...
The 666/616 consideration is interesting because the both can be matched to the name of the same person (one by Greek spelling, the other by Roman spelling.) Somehow, I don't think that Nero is coming back
Since 666 is just one small piece of the puzzle to what the beast in Revelation is. The key to know what the beast is, is how long it will reign. In Revelation we see that it will last for 42 months which is 1260 days and in Daniel we see an entity that will also reign for 1260 days. So focus on the 666 is totally missing what the Bible has to say about this.
Andrew W. said:
(more ranting and raving)
endquote
Anyway I shall invite anyone that would actually care about it to look up UPC barcodes and how they work. I will direct you to the Snopes website and read about it there. Or also the Bell SOuth website to read about their refutation of it.
And I am now done with this area since it seems to just attract antagonizing trolls.
@ Iago, you should not put yourself down with calling yourself names like "troll"
dale! Still praying for you!
I have something for you and the "A"s. Hopefully this will change your minds about the Gospel.
What's the Gospel?
What’s the gospel? I’ll put it in a sentence.
The Gospel is the news that Jesus Christ, the Righteous One, died for our sins and rose again, eternally triumphant over all his enemies, so that there is now no condemnation for those who believe, but only everlasting joy.
That’s the gospel.
You Can't Outgrow the Gospel
You never, never, never outgrow your need for it. Don’t ever think of the gospel as, “That’s the way you get saved, and then you get strong by leaving it and doing something else.”
No! We are strengthened by God through the gospel every day, till the day we drop.
You never outgrow the need to preach to yourself the gospel.
How the Gospel Strengthens
Here’s an illustration, and I use it not because it’s any big deal to speak from my life, but because it’s what I walked through and where I most pointedly in the last year experienced the power of the gospel to make me strong. (Many of you are walking through things much heavier than prostate cancer—much heavier.)
Do you remember the verses that I shared with you back in February that were almighty for me? It was that moment right after the doctor says, “I think we need to do a biopsy,” when this stab of fear comes. It didn’t last long, mercifully.
And then came—what? 1Thessalonians 5:9-10. It’s just as pure gospel as you can get.
God has not destined you for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,who died for you so that whether you wake or sleep you will live with him.
Settled. Peace like a river.
The Gospel Is Perfect for Your Needs
That’s just gospel—perfectly timed, perfectly applied, perfectly suited to my need. That’s why the Bible is so thick—because there are so many different needs that you have. And there are suitable places where the gospel is unfolded for you, so that if you immerse yourself in the whole book, always with an eye for what Christ has wrought for you and purchased for you in this thick, glorious history of God’s interaction with people, he will give you what you need.
Therefore, everything in me says, and I hope to say until the day I die, “Now, to him who is able to strengthen me, according to Paul’s gospel, to him—to that God—be glory forever and ever.”
God came into history in Jesus Christ; he died in order to destroy the power of hell and death and Satan and sin; and he did it through the gospel of Jesus Christ.
A Plea to Believe
I know that there are people reading this who are not trusting Jesus Christ, and therefore can only expect condemnation. So I’m just going to plead with you here at the end, lay down that rebellion. Lay it down. And simply embrace the gospel that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Righteous One, died for your sins. He was raised on the third day, triumphant over all his enemies. He reigns until he puts all of his enemies under his feet. Forgiveness of sins and a right standing with God comes freely through him alone, by faith alone.
I plead with you, don’t try to be strong in your own strength; it will not be there when you need it. Only one strength will be there—the strength that God gives according to the gospel.
Don’t put it off. We are both getting old, you never know when your NUMBER comes up!
Work with me on this Dale! :)
BTW, I almost forgot the answer to the question, ALMOST...
so there is no transcendent reality, eh?
"OPEN LETTER TO RICHARD DAWKINS", Montreal, March 2009
______________________________
____________________
WRONG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bsXOcK9_Cw
______________________________
__________
FOR THE *TRAITORS*:
This particular piece of *BLACK PROPAGANDA* demonstrated the power of
the internet to spread an unconventional message to unsuspecting
targets...It also drove home the point that the supernatural can never
be eradicated from our existence without a price...
"Nostradamus predicts the collapse of the capitalist system and the
world-wide socialist revolution
did you ever hear of the 1st amendment? or will you censor me like
everyone you disagree with...
the vote of the deluded, deceived, and brainwashed masses is not
valid.... it is a SHAM DEMOCRACY!
FINAL DRAFT FOR WORLD-WIDE CIRCULATION:
edition 1568 is the Prophetic Work
see how we stopped the MILLION DOLLAR PARANORMAL CHALLENGE and caused
the president of American Atheists, Ellen Johnson, to quit her job.
those headless babbling idiots in Washington and Ottawa are completely
oblivious to the *REAL WORLD*
visit *******URL BELOW*********
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ7ZBcM5F2A
HOW WE WON THE MILLION DOLLAR PARANORMAL CHALLENGE:
______________________________
_________
http://nostradamus-usa.awardspace.com/
______________________________
_________
to see what the REAL WORLD looks like
Guess what is inside angel's envelope:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIhSBMzPjrc
______________
|
| HuhHuh??
|
______________
and to wrap up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4WoXpnf7-I
and this is for your CENSORSHIP OF THE TRUTH, Politico Wannabe
Frauds.....
No MERCY FOR THE BANKS
Last Chance to GET OUT....TICK TOCK TICK TOCK
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=C09_bjBVF1o
it's a question of time before the END OF CAPITALISM
_______
a little taste of the HEGELIAN DIALECTIC.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytDq-4NIXCA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv-NPFRUV8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFGld1dESJo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L5I3JyPWhc
__________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1S5CRcqJQo&feature=related
Loser Randi *NULLED*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfMsZwr8rc
__________________________
_____
http://www.veoh.com/videos/e120087teCTZZaW
THE GREAT KING OF TERROR....
welcome to the REAL WORLD....
______________________________
________________________
funny how silent you dogs are now, eh Randi & Dawkins... and what
about that monstrous looking freak called "PZ"...LOL.
Atheists have never heard of something called "intellectual modesty &
honesty."
How about just keeping your IGNORANT TRAPS shut once in a while......?
Thanks for your understanding..."
THE MADHOUSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_OIXfkXEj0
________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzRH3iTQPrk&
HAHA
________
BTW, I almost forgot the answer to the question, ALMOST...
so there is no transcendent reality, eh?
"OPEN LETTER TO RICHARD DAWKINS", Montreal, March 2009
______________________________
____________________
WRONG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bsXOcK9_Cw
______________________________
__________
FOR THE *TRAITORS*:
This particular piece of *BLACK PROPAGANDA* demonstrated the power of
the internet to spread an unconventional message to unsuspecting
targets...It also drove home the point that the supernatural can never
be eradicated from our existence without a price...
"Nostradamus predicts the collapse of the capitalist system and the
world-wide socialist revolution
did you ever hear of the 1st amendment? or will you censor me like
everyone you disagree with...
the vote of the deluded, deceived, and brainwashed masses is not
valid.... it is a SHAM DEMOCRACY!
FINAL DRAFT FOR WORLD-WIDE CIRCULATION:
edition 1568 is the Prophetic Work
see how we stopped the MILLION DOLLAR PARANORMAL CHALLENGE and caused
the president of American Atheists, Ellen Johnson, to quit her job.
those headless babbling idiots in Washington and Ottawa are completely
oblivious to the *REAL WORLD*
visit *******URL BELOW*********
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ7ZBcM5F2A
HOW WE WON THE MILLION DOLLAR PARANORMAL CHALLENGE:
______________________________
_________
http://nostradamus-usa.awardspace.com/
______________________________
_________
to see what the REAL WORLD looks like
Guess what is inside angel's envelope:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIhSBMzPjrc
______________
|
| HuhHuh??
|
______________
and to wrap up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4WoXpnf7-I
and this is for your CENSORSHIP OF THE TRUTH, Politico Wannabe
Frauds.....
No MERCY FOR THE BANKS
Last Chance to GET OUT....TICK TOCK TICK TOCK
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=C09_bjBVF1o
it's a question of time before the END OF CAPITALISM
_______
a little taste of the HEGELIAN DIALECTIC.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytDq-4NIXCA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv-NPFRUV8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFGld1dESJo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L5I3JyPWhc
__________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1S5CRcqJQo&feature=related
Loser Randi *NULLED*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfMsZwr8rc
__________________________
_____
http://www.veoh.com/videos/e120087teCTZZaW
THE GREAT KING OF TERROR....
welcome to the REAL WORLD....
______________________________
________________________
funny how silent you dogs are now, eh Randi & Dawkins... and what
about that monstrous looking freak called "PZ"...LOL.
Atheists have never heard of something called "intellectual modesty &
honesty."
How about just keeping your IGNORANT TRAPS shut once in a while......?
Thanks for your understanding..."
THE MADHOUSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_OIXfkXEj0
________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzRH3iTQPrk&
HAHA
________
Post a Comment