Do you like to snuggle up in a warm bed on a cold night? Do you have a favorite position for going to sleep? Have you ever woken from a nightmare, and taken about ten minutes to shake off a feeling of terror?
Has your whole body suddenly “jumped” because you thought you were taking a step, just before you dropped off to sleep?
Do you get annoyed when someone asks you personal questions, or do you feel a sense of identification, because you have had these experiences?
I hope you do identify with me. The reason for this is that it’s my knowledge that you are just like me that drives me to try reach you with the gospel.
Whether you like it or not, you are like me. You have many of the same loves, fears, desires and concerns. You, like me, want to enjoy the pleasures of this life. No one in his right mind wants to be unhappy, and you therefore instinctively don’t want to die. Everything within you pulls back from the experience of death. It’s the ultimate root-cannel for which there is no pain-killer outside of conversion to Jesus Christ.
So, if you don’t know the Lord, ask yourself some personal questions about me. What is my motive for pleading with you like this? I don’t get paid for having a blog. I don’t sell advertising on it. I have never asked for your money, nor do I want it. Christianity doesn't do anything for my ego. Neither is my motive to get you to join a church or a religion. It's simply a deep concern for your eternal welfare. Please, repent and trust the Savior before death seizes on you, and it’s too late.
Wednesday, June 11, 2008
Some Personal Questions
159 comments:
Ray,
I enjoyed watching you and Kirk play with that silly orangutan on this morning's Way Of the Master. Hilarious! Loved it when you tried to make arrangements for it on the airplane. It was a great show, talking about evolution.
I don't want your money either...unless you are spilling over with nothing to do with it.
God doesn't need your money...
Especially, because some of you don't believe in Him anyway...OBVIOUSLY...He wouldn't need it.
When you go to the doctor and he tells you "I need you to give me $200 and I will give you the medicine."
ALL HE WANTS IS MY MONEY!
When you go to the garage...fix car.
When you go to the store...food.
When you get your electric bill...lights.
When you go to the theatre...watch movie.
ALL THEY WANT IS MY MONEY!!!!
In every instance YOU needed or wanted something!...people spend MILLIONS to get you to buy THEIR STUFF BECAUSE IT BENEFITS YOU and them!
Your need...your money...your benefit!
Yet, many of you accuse Ray of wanting your money...has he ever asked you for it? NO...
Christians recognize the need of all humanity...(not chimpanity).
Salvation from damnation...
So does he stop because you don't send money?...NO...because GOD didn't stop with us.
You really need to check your motive for all of the questions and statements YOU ASK.
You are seeking...please read Matthew 7. I pray you get the questions answered that you seek.
God can speak for Himself...yet He chooses to use us to speak what He has already spoken.
And if you don't want to listen...then continue to read for yourself.
I do admire Atheists who have read the Bible more than professing Christians...keep reading you will continue to know more of the Word than hypocrites...
But there is only one way to know the Bible...that is to KNOW the Author...and there is only ONE WAY.
One Truth...One Life.
Thank you, Ray.
Thank you, Ray. May your only offense be the gospel of Jesus Christ.
So, what you're saying is that you believe in God, ultimately, because you are afraid of death?
That just gives credence to the idea of faith as a crutch to those who fear the unknown.
I am not afraid of death, Mr. Comfort. Perhaps I was once, when I was less mature, but there is nothing really to fear. And even if there was something to fear, why fear the inevitable? Why worry yourself over something that you cannot change?
@Ray--
Neither is my motive to get you to join a church or a religion. It's simply a deep concern for your eternal welfare. Please, repent and trust the Savior before death seizes on you, and it’s too late.
You're not trying to get me to join a religion, Ray?
If I should end up accepting Christianity, you won't be the one that leads me there. Your credibility is long gone.
You're not just trying to get me to join a religion. You're trying to get me to join your religion.
I mean, if you can't be honest about that, why should I listen to anything else you have to say? If you won't level with me about things I can verify, why should I believe anything you have to say about things I can't verify?
When I was in my younger years I had a friend who would call me up on a Saturday and say, "Let's go out tonite. We'll raise hell and put props underneath it!"
CIRCULAR REASONING
Sye TenB,
Just wanted to let you know that your website is equally as absurd as the screed that you write here.
You guys should check it out. The actual site is based on circular logic- For Real! HA! I almost Fell out of my chair! Hilarious!
I could not believe my eyes!
Sye, if you want the absolute truth, read my comment on the Post "The Fatheist," titled, Circular Reasoning."
"Do you like to snuggle up in a warm bed on a cold night? Do you have a favorite position for going to sleep? Have you ever woken from a nightmare, and taken about ten minutes to shake off a feeling of terror?"
And then get out of bed in the dark and stub your toe on the nightstand? And then say, "darn it, that hurt?" You betcha.
Ray,
As much as your argument for reconciliation makes looks sincere, the big problem is that next to it, carolpaints reminds us of that nasty video on evolution, where you show such a complete disregard for true knowledge in exchange for ridiculing and dishonest presentation of factoids to "prove" your points. That does nothing good for your credibility.
I have never thought that you are after my money. What the purpose is, I have no idea, could be a good sort of purposes, searching for other points for ridiculing, new arguments for mockery, learning what to expect if you get into another "debate" with skeptics, make a new book based on the blog, all of the above, I do not know.
Still, paraphrasing capt'n howdy, if you cannot be honest on things we can verify, if you can use all kinds of trickery and mockery instead of sound arguments and evidence, then we cannot expect you to be honest on things we cannot verify.
If you truly want to build credibility with us, you have a long way to go. Will you start by not airing ever again your treacherous and misleading video on evolution? Will you air instead an apology for using dishonest tactics to convince those who trust you?
You do not need to accept that evolution is true, all you need to do is to state that, even though you do not believe it, you have not understood it properly enough to explain why it is wrong, yet, your Bible tells a different story, and you stay by it because you are convinced, by your faith, that the Bible is literally true.
It is all about honesty Ray. If you want to accuse me of having something close to a faith, it can only be that honesty, integrity, and education, are the foundations for "the steady evolution of humankind" (evolution here being metaphoric, no intend of convincing you about its meaning in biology).
G.E.
@captain howdy
Please don't take this too personally. But I'm just wondering if that's really the issue here: Ray's claim that he does not consider Christianity to be a religion.
Are you absolutely certain that Ray is being dishonest or disingenuous? Is your mind open to the possibility that Ray's statement is intended to make a point he feels is important, one worthy of discussion and investigation?
Perhaps there is a difference in how you and Ray define "religion." Have you considered that as an explanation for your disagreement with his statement?
Or have you narrowed it down... the only possibility you allow is that Ray is being dishonest?
(Doth the kettle rebuke the pot?)
Ray,
I certainly think you do this because of your stated reasons. You are someone who cares about others, and cares that you think they're going to end up in hell. I respect your motives a lot. More, in fact, than some friends I have who have similar beliefs as you, but don't do anything about trying to save their friend (me) from hell. They choose my friendship over my soul. That, or they don't really believe in it all, which is what I hope (for a couple of reasons).
Now, although I respect your motives, I absolutely have zero (negative even) respect for your methods, for your reasons for believing as you do, and therefore for the results of your outspokenness. You are illogical and willfully ignorant, and are more than happy to share those "qualities" with others.
I don't say this to cause offense, but thought you'd benefit from a blunt explanation of at least one atheist's views here, so you have some actual truths about atheists for your next "The Truth About The Atheist" post.
Ray,
I think you're following your Great Commission. I don't question your motives. I don't find fault in your raising money for your ministry. A guys gotta eat.
It's your methods that are repugnant. You peddle ignorance. You've made demonstrably false statements about science/ evolution when it's obvious you haven't bothered to research in a serious way what you claim to be false. You quote mine to distort the actual intent of people's writings to serve your purposes.
The worst is what you and your like minded brethren do to kids. Scaring the bejiggles out of them with threats of eternity in a crock pot unless they trade in their curiosity and thirst to learn for some 1900 year old folk tales. I know you think your pulling them back from the edge of a cliff and they might get run over by a school bus tomorrow and must be saved NOW but it's truly warped.
Just wondering, do you get extra crowns or something for extra evangelizing.
That thar monkey shore wuz silly, hyuk hyuk!
carolpaints said:
Loved it when you tried to make arrangements for it on the airplane. It was a great show, talking about evolution.
I once saw an episode of Mythbusters where they showed that piercing your tongue doesn't make you more likely to get hit by lightning, totally disproving evolution.
FD Wrote:
"There are enough very, very real and horrid situations in life that are to be feared without adding to it."
Assuming arguendo, what Ray says is true - then the fact that there may be other horrid situations in life to be feared is irrelevant, no?
Dale:
You wrote:
"Just wanted to let you [Sye] know that your website is equally as absurd as the screed that you write here."
What gives? The vast majority of your posts are merely insults and mockery these days. Your not even trying anymore.
Sye's logical flow is not circular at all and reminds me a bit of David Hume. I would have guessed that you would be a fan of Hume.
@flinging dust:
You say that there are plenty more horrid things to fear in life than death, but which of these things isn't final? You can name anything under the sun that could go wrong, but it's nothing that can't be fixed, tolerated, suffered through, reconciled, or forgotten - but death is the limit, and every man has it. Death in and of itself is nothing to be afraid of - Christ has defeated death by His resurrection from the dead, so there is no need to fear a beaten enemy - and, like you said, it is inevitable. But dying a sinner and falling into the hands of God's justice is, as David said, a frightful thing. It's not like God's waiting on us to die so that He can give us justice - why would He have sent His Son to pay our rightful penalty if that were true? - but when we stick our noses up at Him in refusal to repent and obey His command to turn to Jesus for the cancelling of our sins, He is forced to give us justice. It's what Jesus meant when He said, "What good is it for a man to gain the whole world and forefeit his soul?" Do you know what forefeit means? You just give it up without a fight. If you're willing to forefeit yourself to God's justice, then He'll have no other choice than to give you what you've earned. But you can repent now from your sins (if you want to know what sin is, look at the Law - it's what He gave us to show what sin is: and even when you do things that are written in the Law without knowing the Law itself, that becomes a Law unto itself because it shows that God's word is written on your heart.), and read the gospel of John and see what Jesus paid in full so that we could be forgiven. You have now, take it before your sufferings are no longer temporary, please.
God bless you, Ray! I truly believe what you are doing comes from the heart and is totally sincere. Keep doing what you're doing to reach the lost, and never give up!
dale said, "CIRCULAR REASONING
Sye TenB,
Just wanted to let you know that your website is equally as absurd as the screed that you write here.
You guys should check it out. The actual site is based on circular logic- For Real! HA! I almost Fell out of my chair! Hilarious!
I could not believe my eyes!
Sye, if you want the absolute truth, read my comment on the Post "The Fatheist," titled, Circular Reasoning."
Dale, didn't you just copy and paste that from Ray's last post? Are you going to paste that for every article?
CIRCULAR REASONING
Sye TenB,
Just wanted to let you know that your website is equally as absurd as the screed that you write here.
You guys should check it out. The actual site is based on circular logic- For Real! HA! I almost Fell out of my chair! Hilarious!
I could not believe my eyes!
Sye, if you want the absolute truth, read my comment on the Post "The Fatheist," titled, Circular Reasoning."
I'm sure many thought that Jesus was out of His mind when He cleared the temple. I'm sure that so many modern emergent-like Churches with a sappy "Gospel" scratch their heads when they read how Jesus dealt with with the rich, young ruler (Law only).
The Jews stoned Stephen to death, I don't think they liked his message too much.
Saul (before he became Paul) was in charge of destroying the Christians wherever he went, he surely didn't like the Christian's methods of evangelism. But then He literally saw the light of it all. Then after that the Jews tried to kill him too.
Almost all the Christians were martyred because people didn't like their methods to preach the Gospel, and hated the Gospel itself.
I'd say that any church or Christian that wasn't persecuted in some way or fashion is probably not doing what he/she ought to be doing.
Preaching the Gospel always has it's negative side, always, in some form or fashion.
Of course if you don't engage in that, and just keep it to yourself then you may want to re-think your position in Christ.
Spurgeon say's it eloquently and doesn't beat around the bush about it: "Have you no wish for others to be saved? Then your not saved yourself, be sure of that!"
Christ Himself promised persecution would come to all those who were saved unto God. It is then, that the world becomes the enemy and not the friend as it once was, because the world despises the holiness of God and His standards.
But Christ commanded every Christian to "Go!" "Seek and save that which is lost" to NOT do so is a grave sin for a Christian. And that ought to be a great wake up call for every "sleeping" Christian who doesn't share the Gospel of Christ and disciple people.
Ray, you are doing a mighty fine work!
The atheists really ought have nothing to say, for they do not care for people like you do. Even other atheists have noticed that your heart Ray is for reaching the lost. That's something that you won't see with the horrid TV Evangelists that dirty the name of Christ with their pseudo-Christianity, leading tens of thousands into false teaching, and leading hundreds of thousands of their children into bitter false converts and even to atheism.
Hey folks,
This site has been desicrated.
And I don't mean just a little bit.
If you look at Jason's photo, you will see what I would assume to be Jason on the left. But the guy on the right is the most evil, vile, cantankerous, odious, disgusting atheist in the United States.
Yes, It is P.Z. Myers.
I am not worthy!
If we could only have a guest appearance from Richard Dawkins, that would put this blog on the map!
Why does Ray plea?
What was in it for the Lord Jesus?
He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (Isaiah 53:3)
They put a purple robe on Jesus, made a crown out of thorny branches, and put it on his head. Then they began to salute him: "Long live the King of the Jews!" They beat him over the head with a stick, spat on him, fell on their knees, and bowed down to him. (Mark 15:17-19)
Pilate wanted to please the crowd, so he set Barabbas free for them. Then he had Jesus whipped and handed him over to be crucified. (Mark 15:15)
He did this for all, so there could be forgiveness of sins, even these old, hardened atheists, if they would humble themselves.
In answer to the questions, yes I do like warm blankets, yes I have a favorite position, no I don't wake in terror (at least not in over a decade), and no I don't have that step sensation.
I think you generally think you are right and want to help. This has no bearing on whether you are right or not.
I'm not afraid to be dead, although I'm afraid of the actual dying, it's unliely to be pleasant. So, on these questions 'm slightly under 50% like you, which explains why I believe differently than you.
dale,
That CIRCULAR REASONING thing, was sharp.
-----
Sye,
If you are not an atheist making fun of the christians being oblivious to your fallacies by using God in a revered way in your arguments, then: How do you account for your apparent idiocy, trickery and lack of understanding of the rules of logic?
@ Chris, IRT: Tell the Truth!
Where is the 'Love' bro? You blatantly stab into our host Ray Comfort with this:
"You are illogical and willfully ignorant, and are more than happy to share those "qualities" with others." chris
You are in no place to judge a 'Man' that is more knowledgable than you and more experienced in life's matters, and the Lord's work.
You are just a young Pup! Wet behind the ears. Ignorant of God.
You have not even begun to learn.
I did notice that you finally told us the "Truth" about your beliefs.
"a blunt explanation of at least one atheist's views here, so you have some actual truths about atheists for your next "The Truth About The Atheist" post."
However you told us on May 29th
you were a 'New Christian' what???
You said on May 29, 2008 on “Sleeping Convert” post
“I am still new to to being Christian and not Mormon and have several things I often struggle with and ponder over. Particularly in regards to the nature of Christ and how ones belief in such applies to their salvation.”
Gotcha! As Chimp would say:
"Word is Bond!"
You are a Liar! & a "Fool". Repent of your sins! Accept Jesus Christ before you find yourself in Hell.
The video Hells Best Kept Secret is on my webpage. May God bless you in a special way and open your heart to His Word.
Psalms 14:1
"The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good."
In your own words: "I absolutely have zero (negative even) respect for your methods"
Goodbye Chris!
"The Truth shall set you Free!"
Ray, as a human being much like myself, do you also find yourself frustrated when people try to convince you they are right with 'arguments' that chase their own tails in tight circles? When you ask 'Why should I believe you?' and they say 'Because it's true, and you'll be sorry when you find out I'm right'?
If you want to reach me, you could start by making an effort to speak my language -- Rationalese. It isn't terribly hard to learn, you just have to remember that, in this language, non sequiturs, arguments from ignorance, and begging the question are considered serious faults.
People here should be able to identify with the apostles.
God Glorified in the Nobodies
September 20th, 2006
(By John MacArthur)
Stained-Glass Saints?
If you’ve ever visited the great cathedrals in Europe, you’d think the apostles were larger-than-life stained-glass saints with shining halos who represented an exalted degree of spirituality. But actually, they were very, very common men.
It’s a shame they have so often been put on pedestals as magnificent marble figures, or portrayed in paintings like some kind of Roman gods. That dehumanizes them. They were just twelve completely ordinary men—human in every way—and we shouldn’t lose touch with who they really were.
So what qualified those men to be apostles? The truth is, it wasn’t any intrinsic ability or outstanding talent of their own. They were Galileans. They were not the elite. Galileans were considered low-class, rural, uneducated, people. They were commoners, nobodies. But those nobodies would become the preeminent leaders of the fledgling church—its very foundation!
Now when it comes to church leadership, there are some rather clear moral and spiritual qualifications that men must meet. The Bible sets the standard extremely high (see 1 Timothy 3:2-7; Titus 1:6-9; Hebrews 13:7).
But you know something? The standard isn’t any lower for the rest of the church. Leaders are to be examples for all others who strive to meet the same standard. There is no such thing as an acceptable “lower” standard for rank-and-file church members. In fact, in Matthew 5:48, Jesus said to all believers, “Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”
That’s a tall order! Frankly, no one meets such a standard. Humanly speaking, no one “qualifies” when the standard is utter perfection. What joy there is in knowing that it is God Himself who must save sinners, sanctify them, and then transform the unqualified into instruments He can use.
The twelve were like the rest of us; they were selected from the unworthy and the unqualified. They were, like Elijah, men “with a nature like ours” (James 5:17). They did not rise to the highest usefulness because they were somehow different from us. Rather, their transformation into vessels of honor was a divine work and their incredible influence is a result of the divine message they preached.
Why God Chooses Us
Do you ever become discouraged and disheartened when your spiritual life and witness suffer because of personal sin or failure? We tend to think we’re worthless nobodies—and left to ourselves, that would be true! But be encouraged—worthless nobodies are just the kind of people God uses. If you think about it, that’s all He has to work with!
But have you ever stopped to consider why that’s true? Listen to this: God chooses the humble, the lowly, the meek, and the weak so that there’s never any question about the source of power when their lives change the world. It’s not the man; it’s the truth of God and the power of God in the man. Next time you’re reading through the gospels or the book of Acts, take a few minutes to consider the work of God in the apostles. They were slow to believe, slow to understand, and had horrendous memories! Sound familiar?
Don’t worry—that is perfectly consistent with the way the Lord always works. 1 Corinthians 1:20-21 says, “Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.” That is the very reason there were no philosophers, no brilliant writers, no famous debaters, no distinguished teachers, and no men who had ever distinguished themselves as great orators among the twelve Christ chose. They became great spiritual leaders and great preachers under the power of the Holy Spirit, but it was not because of any innate oratorical skill, leadership abilities, or academic qualifications they had. Their influence is owing to one thing and one thing only: the power of the message they preached.
On a human level, the gospel was considered a foolish message and the apostles were deemed unsophisticated preachers. Their teaching was beneath the elite. They were mere fishermen and working-class nobodies. Peons. Rabble. That was the assessment of their contemporaries and that has been the majority opinion of the genuine church of Christ throughout history and to this very day! “For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called” (v. 26).
But think about this: “God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence” (vv. 27-29). God’s favorite instruments are nobodies, so that no man can boast before God. In other words, God chooses whom He chooses so He might receive the glory. He chooses weak instruments so no one will attribute the power to the instruments but rather to the God who wields the instruments. Those who pursue their own glory will sadly find God’s strategy unacceptable—and they’ll miss out on true glory and true joy.
With the notable exception of Judas, the apostles were not like that. They certainly struggled with pride and arrogance like every fallen human being. But the driving passion of their lives became the glory of Christ. And it was that passion, subjected to the influence of the Holy Spirit—not any innate skill or human talent—that explains why they left such an indelible impact on the world.
Get_Education said...
dale,
That CIRCULAR REASONING thing, was sharp."
I'm on my way over to share that glass of Port with you.
What do you like to have with it?
Thanks!
Choco,
In your ignorance of scripture, you said,
"They put a purple robe on Jesus,.."
That is disputed in the synoptic gospels. You do know that, don't you?
Anthony,
You said,
"Sye's logical flow is not circular at all and reminds me a bit of David Hume. I would have guessed that you would be a fan of Hume."
If Sye is David Hume-like, then I am I am Pope benedict.
For your edification, Hume was the first great philosopher of the modern era to carve out a thoroughly naturalistic philosophy.
You need to check your references a bit closer, Anthony.
(ShiVeR)Curtis said...
People here should be able to identify with the apostles.
God Glorified in the Nobodies
September 20th, 2006
(By John MacArthur)
John MacArthur is a sophist and a fraud. Posting those long idiotic writings by him is gaining you nothing. Nobody is reading it. Not even the believers. All you are doing is sucking up bandwidth.
dale,
Deal on the glass of Port. What about thin crackers with cheese?
G.E.
Get_Education,
By the way, I know this is bizarre, but i love to have mandarin orange slices and a bit of Danish Bleu Cheese to compliment a glass of Port.
Hey, that's just me!
Some like a cigar!
@
All Fired Up...
You said:
"I'd say that any church or Christian that wasn't persecuted in some way or fashion is probably not doing what he/she ought to be doing."
I Agree!!! A preacher once said: "if you're not getting resistance or opposition, you're not being effective." Talk about "ouch; hallelujah!"
@ CHRISTians...
Have you prayed for atheists today?
Peace & Blessings,
Michelle :)
@
Terry...
Good Call on Chris! Thanks for bringing his deception out into the light.
Would you let a child "help" you fix your car engine, or install a new OS on your computer?
I wouldn't.
Ray,
This is a good post. I wonder how many TV evangelists would continue if they were told that they would recieve no more money? Most of them have made it hard for REAL Christians to be about our Fathers bussiness.
In Christ,
Thomas Brown
This may be off topic, but I'd like to throw it out there. Although I'm sure the atheists will devour this and spit it out, I'm curious what other Christians think of these comments in this article. Though I am not a Catholic, I agree with what is said here because it is referring to the issue of atheists vs. religion, specifically the more militant atheism against Christianity.
****
"Myth No.3: A theologian answers the atheists
Religion Is Opposed to Science
BY FATHER THOMAS WILLIAMS, LC
May 11-17, 2008 Issue
One of the most common objections to religious belief today is its supposed incompatibility with scientific knowledge.
The age of science was supposed to replace the age of religion — or so the story goes — since it provided a better explanation of the natural world that we live in. We no longer “need” God, since science has explained how things really are.
Religion is “an enemy of science and inquiry,” writes atheist Christopher Hitchens (God Is Not Great). The logic behind this accusation runs like this: Religion hates science, because religion is about power. Once people learn how nature really works, they won’t need God anymore and they won’t need churches or church leaders to tell them what to do. Church leaders will lose their influence and power, so they cannot let that happen. Therefore, church leaders will always try to thwart science.
Thus atheist Richard Dawkins writes: “Mystics exult in mystery and want it to stay mysterious. … One of the truly bad effects of religion is that it teaches us that it is a virtue to be satisfied with not understanding” (The God Delusion).
Both Dawkins and Hitchens declare that religion is inimical to science. Science and religion cannot peacefully coexist — they say — since they offer contrary explanations of reality. Since only one can survive, one must go, and the two are in a struggle to the death.
The example to be trotted out is always, of course, the case of Galileo Galilei. Though the Galileo affair was hardly a molehill, it wasn’t nearly the mountain it has been made out to be.
Real errors were made — scientific, theological and moral — and injustices committed, and no one disagrees with this. Still, one historical case (Isn’t it interesting how Galileo is the only example ever cited by the atheists?) hardly negates the enthusiastic support that the Church has given to the natural sciences over the course of two millennia.
Religion’s supposed hostility to the natural sciences extends to other related disciplines, as well.
Christopher Hitchens writes: “The attitude of religion to medicine, like the attitude of religion to science, is always problematic and very often necessarily hostile.” He adds that medical research only began to flourish once “the priests had been elbowed aside.”
Oddly, in the very next line he fondly quotes Louis Pasteur as an example of this enlightened research, without acknowledging that Pasteur was a pious Catholic!
A closer look at the facts reveals a much different reality than that painted by the atheists.
History shows that the natural sciences grew out of Christian culture. As the sociologist Rodney Stark has so convincingly shown (See especially For the Glory of God: How Monotheism Led to Reformations, Science, Witch-Hunts, and the End of Slavery), science was “still-born” in the great civilizations of the ancient world, except in Christian civilization.
Why is it that empirical science and the scientific method did not develop in China (with its sophisticated society), in India (with its philosophical schools), in Arabia (with its advanced mathematics), in Japan (with its dedicated craftsmen and technologies), or even in ancient Greece or Rome?
The answer is fairly straightforward. Science flourished in societies where a Christian mindset understood nature to be ordered, the work of an intelligent Creator. Science grew where people assumed that the natural world is intelligible and bears the handwriting of its author.
Far from being an obstacle to science, Christian soil was the necessary humus where science took root.
Christianity’s unapologetic support of science is borne out by the immense direct contribution of the Church to science itself. To take but one area — that of astronomy — J.L. Heilbron of the University of California-Berkeley has written:
“The Roman Catholic Church gave more financial aid and social support to the study of astronomy for over six centuries, from the recovery of ancient learning during the late Middle Ages into the Enlightenment, than any other, and, probably, all other, institutions.”
With this in mind, Hitchens’ claim that “the right to look through telescopes and speculate about the result was obstructed by the Church” seems especially disingenuous.
What can be said of astronomy can be said equally of medicine, physics, mathematics and chemistry.
Just as the Christian church patronized the arts, so it vigorously supported scientific research. The caricature of an obscurantist, ignorance-promoting church simply doesn’t correspond to historical truth.
Some of history’s greatest scientists — Newton, Pasteur, Galilei, Lavoisier, Kepler, Copernicus, Faraday, Maxwell, Bernard and Heisenberg — were all Christians, and the list doesn’t stop there. Some important scientists, such as astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus, were actually Catholic priests!
Christianity is not against science, but against an absolutist reading of science. The empirical sciences cannot do everything, and hold no monopoly on knowledge and truth. Many important questions — the most important, really — fall outside the purview of science.
What is the meaning of life? How should people treat one another? What happens to us when we die?
No matter how long a white-coated scientist toils and sweats in his laboratory, his instruments will never reveal the answers to these questions. Science is the wrong tool for the job.
You cannot scale Mount Everest by using a microscope and scalpel. You cannot write poetry with a vernier caliper. You cannot answer life’s ultimate questions through scientific investigation.
One wonders, in fact, for all their protestations how much atheists truly desire to advance the needed dialogue between religion and science.
Hitchens writes that “[a]ll attempts to reconcile faith with science and reason are consigned to failure and ridicule.” If this is the foreordained conclusion, there is no sense continuing to dialogue. It would seem that the imaginary “faith-science divide” originates not with believers, but with atheists trying to pick a fight with religion."
(Legionary Father Thomas Williams is Vatican Analyst for CBS News and author of, most recently, Greater Than You Think: A Theologian Answers the Atheists About God (New York: Hachette, forthcoming — June 2008).)
Ray, When I read your post this morning, I thought it was so innocuous that the atheists would take the day off; maybe go to a nice quiet place and evolve a bit. Then, the comments started coming in. You were labeled an irrational, lying, deceiver with a possible scandal in your future. (Interesting that the suspicion of a looming scandal was based on the assertion that you preached the same message as other "evangelists" who ended up being disgraced.)
Ray, your Gospel is not in the least different than the Gospel of apostles. Your method of causing people to see their need of salvation by using the law to reveal their guilt is also entirely biblical.
You are just one man in a long line of those who have called the church back to "The Master's" way of evangelism. The apostles, the Reformers, Whitefield, Edwards, Moody, Spurgeon, Barnhouse, Coleman, and most recently, Richard Phillips have all taught the same thing.
So, as another commenter has already said, keep doing what you are doing, Ray.
Craig
Dale, I loved the CIRCULAR REASONING post. You had me rolling on the floor laughing.
Well done my friend!
Word is Bond!
~Atomic Chimp(Michael Kevin)
Thanks, Ray. For the record, I don't doubt your sincerity and I certainly admire your commitment and dedication to (what you consider to be) service of your fellow man.
Apart from some miraculous intervention by God (over which I have no control, believe me), I'm not likely to be swayed by anything short of a comprehensive and unassailable rational argument. CS Lewis, to his credit, attempted such a project, although he failed miserably in my opinion.
@
Chris & Terry...
WHOOPS!! I think an apology may be in order.
I researched ChrisAlmond, who posted back and May and the one that posted here today...they appear to be different people, unless the IP addresses are the same.
Chris, if you are NOT ChrisAlmond, please disregard the comments towards you. (About being deceptive.)
There's nothing that you could say that could convince me that there is a loving, personal God that answers people's prayers. I've seen far too much pain and suffering in my short life, and it's impossible for me to do the mental gymnastics required.
The argument is quite simple and has been around for thousands of years:
"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" -- Epicurus 340 BCE
I find much more solace from the words and mantras of Buddhism:
All that we are is the result of what we have thought. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him.
-- Buddha
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
-- Buddha
Even death is not to be feared by one who has lived wisely.
-- Buddha
I think it's obvious to everyone that reads Ray's blog that he's faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ. The thing that you as athiest do not get is this... He's not trying to get you converted to his religion or even for you to join his church. He's simply stating that without Christ as your Savior... you are lost! You can believe it or not. The wonderful thing about Ray is that he is not swayed by your unbelief. He still cares about where you will spend eternity. He knows that you need the Lord, and even though you can not in your own strength, your own logic, and understanding accept this message, doesn't mean that there's still not hope for you. Say all the silly things you want, it doesn't matter. Those of you that hear this message of hope from Ray and do not believe or even mock as you do, it's understandable and expected. You can not give your life to Christ unless He first chooses to reveal himself to you. When you have been convicted of His truth, that's when you will accept Him as your Lord. Until then, all this will seem as foolishness to you. My prayer is that God will draw you to Himself and convict you of your sin, and then you'll repent and ask for God's forgiveness so you can have eternal life. The reason you don't fear death, is because you don't believe in Heaven or Hell. If you believed in Hell, your fear of going there would help you to seek out the Lord as your Savior. You have to first realize that you need to be saved, or you never will be. You may not be afraid of a rattle snake either, but his bite is no less poisenous just because you were not afraid. Your day of judgement is coming. We as believers just want you to know that God loves you and wants you to spend eternity with Him forever. May the Lord convict you of this. May God bless you.
(I capitalized "God" for you and let it through...the orangutan was a male--VERY strong.)
Irukandji said...
Morbid curiosity drove me to hunt down the WoTM video that Carol mentioned at the beginning of this thread. My reaction: Wow. Just wow.
For those of you who haven't seen it, Ray and Kirk rent a beleaguered-looking orangutan and set out to discover exactly what it is that sets humans apart from the (other) great apes. (Apparently, it's table manners and the ability to purchase a plane ticket - who knew?)
After a long hard day of primate madcaps, Ray waxes eloquent on the intellectual limitations of orangutans: "You see, you don't get orangutans forming themselves into an orchestra. You don't get them forming themselves into a court system to mete out justice to its fellow creatures. This isn't because he's a prehistoric man who's less evolved than us." And here, Ray stabs his finger at the camera and triumphantly pronounces, "It's because he's another species."
And then, for several long seconds, I gaped blankly at my computer screen in disbelief.
. . . Yes, Ray, orangutans are another species. Heck, they're in another genus. Any God-hating evolutionist scientist could tell you this. Nobody is claiming that orangutans are "less evolved humans" - the orangutan lineage split off from the human lineage ~7 mya. In the grand scheme of things, are we rather closely related to orangutans? Yes, but they're our cousins, so to speak - not our ancestors.
(Ray - out of curiosity, was the orangutan in the video female? S/he certainly looks it, although it's also possible that s/he was a juvenile male.)
June 11, 2008 8:53 PM
eric said...
”There's nothing that you could say that could convince me that there is a loving, personal God that answers people's prayers. I've seen far too much pain and suffering in my short life, and it's impossible for me to do the mental gymnastics required.”
_____
It’s a good thing that no one can convince you about God, because if they could, someone else could convince you away from God later on. I thank the Lord that it wasn’t any individual who convinced me – but that it was the Lord Himself. When God reveals Himself to you, then you’ll know it’s Him, you’ll have met the Source of life, the Source of your life, the answer to the purpose of existence, and the only One who can forgive your sins.
I’m sorry that you’ve seen a lot of pain and suffering, but I’m encouraged that your life’s been short, which means that you’re young and that you still have time to open your mind and soften your heart. Pain and suffering are realities for everyone, because we live in a fallen world. If this reality is possible, couldn’t another one be just as possible? but have even more suffering (punishment for your own sin)? That’s worth thinking over.
It’s not about mental gymnastics. I see things everyday that my mind cannot fully grasp, like exactly how my computer works, but I still use it. I don’t understand every aspect to God, but I know He’s there, He’s real, and He can save the most pride filled atheist or the most religious zealot or the most lost and evil man alive…if that person repents and trust the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross.
Enjoy your day,
Keith
My impending death doesn't bother me at all. Presumably it's the same experience as I had for the 14 billion years before I was born.
What bothers me is the way I will die. Perhaps I'll go the same way as my grandfather, via bowel cancer over two long horrendous years. Wasn't this a punishment by proxy from your loving God, payment for someone who once ate an apple.
No, my pre-birth death doesn't bother me at all.
Great post, Ray. It immediately brought to my mind the words of Paul, as recorded in Acts chapter 20, when he reminded the elders from Ephesus how he had pleaded with them, and "ceased not to warn [them] night and day with tears".
If you don't mind, I would really like to use what you wrote here as a tract, or in some other form in order to reach the lost for Christ...
The Lord bless you, and keep you.
Ray,
I gotta admit I still haven't quite figured you out. I have narrowed it down to 2 conclusions though
Either
1) You're an evil super-genius and this blog is part of your diabolical master plan to take over the world
or
2)You are a genuine, caring, loving and sincere man....that belongs in a mental institution.
Either way, you seem like a nice guy to grab a beer and watch a football game with. But you probaly don't drink, so, I'd be happy to buy you a Shirley Temple.
@Michelle and @Terry:
I am "Chris" and am not the same person as "chrisalmond". I am an ex-catholic, current atheist, living in the UK.
From what I can see, "chrisalmond" is an ex-mormon, current protestant, living in the USA.
Now, onto some criticisms of my comment from Terry. Yes Terry, I am perfectly able to judge Ray on his logic and scientific knowledge, as they are sub-par. And, to the extent he uses them in his arguments regarding God, they have been demonstrated repeatedly to be worth very little. I am sure he knows his bible better than I do, but this impresses me as much as my nephew who can name all of Santa's reindeer.
You say I am "ignorant of God". I apparently know more about the reality of God than yourself or Ray. That reality being he very likely doesn't exist. Ray would know more of the attributes of the character from the bible.
Just like I know the important bits about Santa, but my nephew still knows more of the details.
flinging dust said...
@ dale
"I was reading a bit of Hume the other night. Is it me or is his work hard to follow??
It could be me...It could be me..."
Yes, Hume is a bit hard to follow, yet I like his arguments. Reading him is an exercise in cognition.
Bertrand Russell remains one of my favorites and he was a contemporary of mine. He died the year I graduated college.
I wrote several papers in my senior year, one of which my professor told me that Russel read, but his health was deteriorating and I never got the chance to correspond with him.
Disclaimer: I do not claim to have a modicum of intellect beside the likes of Hume and Russell. My philosophy has remained very basic; logic based. Plus, I had to have a real job with a wife and five kids! Those higher arguments are fun though!
Ray,
You always talk about Hell, the burning of flesh, the gnashing of teeth, etc...
I have a pretty good concept of what you think Hell is, but no idea really about Heaven.
So, I have a request...could you describe Heaven for us. What's that like? What goes on there? Where is it?
Do you watch an endless Nick at Nite marathon of 'Growing Pains' re-reuns?
Ok, sorry for the stupid joke...but could seriously describe Heaven at sometime?
Thank you
[QUOTE]
{{{This may be off topic, but I'd like to throw it out there. Although I'm sure the atheists will devour this and spit it out, I'm curious what other Christians think of these comments in this article. Though I am not a Catholic, I agree with what is said here because it is referring to the issue of atheists vs. religion, specifically the more militant atheism against Christianity.}}}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[REPLY]
Frist - Note to self - must get new "mouse". This current one is damaged form overwork!
Second - on the post. This is one of the things that i have said quite often - so much of our currently available history is majorly revisinist.
I once did a study on all the state approved (FL)social studies text books in our district book repositroy. I choose to look for the specific topic of "Thaksgiving" since that was a very common section of our US history.
The results (I not kept the actual stats - though I did have them for many years) showed quite an interesting picture of how our history was now being taught.
One book did not mention Thanksgiving - it just skipped it entirely.
Several books explained the Pilgrims and Thanksgiving, but never explained why they celebrated it.
All the rest - as in ALL the rest - and this was the majority - said that Thanksgiving was celebrated to thank the Native Americans for helping them to survive.
That is why I teach early American history from a book I have copyrighted in 1899 (when God was still allowed in text books) and from Wisdom Books from our homeschool group.
Back to this article - true science is from God - because He created it! It has order and design because it came from one source. The same can be said for art, music, language, and mathematics. Only when man steps in to corrupt God's design does it distort and fail.
This is long enough - and as I mentioned, my mouse is totally out of kilter - but I would love to take up Wee's faith in public education that she mentioned in the previous blog entry - my husband is no chef! but has been in public education for 36 years and is very noted in our state for his achievements (and somewhat nationally in some areas) - but we have homeschooled (four children) for 16 years (with several more years still to go.)
Science and God are not opposed, but true science will always show God's creation.
Blessings,
Patti
Off the topic, just want to say thanks to Ray for being the only person that made sense to me about the topic of salvation.
As a "christian", I always battled with sin until I watched the Way of the Master - way down in South Africa. Ray is very straight forward which is really refreshing.
I recently came across this blog and it is really interesting. It's good to see discussion between people. Anyway, keep up the great work Ray. Cheers
Amen Ray, Amen!
flinging dust said... My problem with you is that you, Ken Ham, Hovind and the like lie to people about evolution and science in general and you also use unreasonable fear to push your theology. Now I realize that to you the fear isn't unreasonable, but to many it is.
... When you get your information from Ray, Ham, Hovind, ect. you might actually think that video was 'great'.
Sadly for you and a few others who post is that Ray, Ham, Hovind, etc (includes my wife and I) have no reason to lie about evolution.
Pubulis Said:
Why would anyone want to lead people especially their children, grandchildren, etc. to the monster you worship? I know, you said that you're not listening. But that just proves to me that you know you worship a monster. If there were any honesty in your long diatribe, you would be open to a reply. You might not agree with the reply. But you would not be "sticking your fingers in your ears."
---------
To all:
Scott Moore's post really shows what christianity is all about. The only thing someone trying to spread christianity is listening to is the sign of an opportunity to apply his con. I will grant that most of them are subtler than Scott. But that is my observation of the religion.
Pubulis,
You are a heathen, God hating, Fool. (Not My words)The same comment to Dale goes out directly to you also. You follow fools and act like them. You are full of hate and all your comments prove this to be true.
Your cup is truly running over.
I will not listen right now because I am fed up with heathen fools such as yourself, Dale, & his "cronies" belittling the precious pearl Christ. For the life of me I do not know why Ray allows trash talkers such as you and the others I've mentioned on this blog at all. You are no benefit to anyone here unless Christians are willing to learn from the hypocrisy that flows from your(and others) mouths. What a waste.
PS: Why be subtle! Whats the point in this. I desire to get to the point, but it's hard to do when there's so much double talk.
I also see your leader didnt have a comment. Hmmmm
On second thought, I might listen for a bit..Is that all you got? If it is...It aint much bud. But thats what I expected from you and Dale..not much
weemaryanne said: "ShiVeR(curtis), I thought you promised no more of that tedious Macarthur dude. Give us a break and give your brain some exercise: Say something that someone else hasn't said first."
That is so funny because all I read from the atheists on this blog is the same thing over and over again. Nothing new. There is nothing new under the sun. As long as he is following the rules of the blog he can post whatever he wants to, whether you like reading it or not. It's a free country. Nah nah na boo boo! You can always visit another blog that is more suitable to your taste. But I would compel you to take head to what you have heard here. You have heard the law and gospel presented and now the ball is in your court. You can either receive or reject the gift that God gave you. The choice is up to you. God bless.
That is so funny because all I read from the [skeptics*] on this blog is the same thing over and over again. Nothing new.
Citrate-eating bacteria.
*changed "atheists" to "skeptics" so I could respond.
mike & liz said:
Sadly for you and a few others who post is that Ray, Ham, Hovind, etc (includes my wife and I) have no reason to lie about evolution.
Which just makes it even sadder when they do.
Mike and Lizette's Travels and Thoughts said :
Sadly for you and a few others who post is that Ray, Ham, Hovind, etc (includes my wife and I) have no reason to lie about evolution.
endquote
Yes yes you do. In your eyes evolution can't be true because the Bible says it isn't. And your faith is so fragile that it cannnot allow for anything other than a literal interpretation.
Ken Ham,Hovind, and the rest make money off of making books on how to lead a Christian Life, or How to Stay out of Hell. I just searched on Amazon and there are 1210 listings for things being sold with Ray Comforts name attached. He is interested in misrepresenting how science and evolution work. if he did not do that he would have nothing to sell and he would need to find an honest profession.
And as a note Ken Ham has 320. And Kent Hovind has 57, guess being in jail for tax fraud will slow down your publishing rate.
flingingdust said: Wondering if Ray will be caught up in a scandal has nothing to do with his message, by the way. It has to do with his profession.
(I'm sure you know that my atheists 'taking the day off' comment was tongue-in-cheek. Their tenacity is admirable.)
When an evangelist gets caught up in a scandal it is "big news for sure. I thought it it was going too far to suggest that about Ray. Do you agree?
Speaking of "flinging dust", did that dust storm we had last week here in CA desert reach you, or are you in the Sierra Nevada region?
Best wishes to you.
Craig
Hey Ray... they can get annoying can't they? My family here in Winter Park, FL prays for you and your team regularly. We are glad to work together to share the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
We encourage you to keep growing in faith, boldness, and purity - fleeing idols and the distractions of this world. And preaching repentance and obedience in our Master and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Thank you again!
your friend,
prayer partner and
fellow laborer,
Steven
John 14:21
"NaFa said... Ray,
I gotta admit I still haven't quite figured you out. I have narrowed it down to 2 conclusions though
Either
1) You're an evil super-genius and this blog is part of your diabolical master plan to take over the world
or
2)You are a genuine, caring, loving and sincere man....that belongs in a mental institution.
Either way, you seem like a nice guy to grab a beer and watch a football game with. But you probaly don't drink, so, I'd be happy to buy you a Shirley Temple.
June 12, 2008 4:15 AM."
NaFa...you made me laugh...(then again, you proably weren't kidding).
flinging dust said... Really??? No reason huh?? What is Hovind sitting in prison for?
Answer... Taxes. Taxes and evolution are not the same.
also said... Ray has no reason to lie???
Really??? Go to YouTube and type in 'Refuting Way Of the Master by Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort'.
I seen them and Ray had no reason to lie, all I was able to get out of these so called videos was someone whining and not proving anything other than his arrogance on creation.
iago said... Yes yes you do. In your eyes evolution can't be true because the Bible says it isn't. And your faith is so fragile that it cannnot allow for anything other than a literal interpretation.
Ken Ham,Hovind, and the rest make money off of making books on how to lead a Christian Life, or How to Stay out of Hell. I just searched on Amazon and there are 1210 listings for things being sold with Ray Comforts name attached. He is interested in misrepresenting how science and evolution work. if he did not do that he would have nothing to sell and he would need to find an honest profession.
And as a note Ken Ham has 320. And Kent Hovind has 57, guess being in jail for tax fraud will slow down your publishing rate.
The only ones with a fragile faith are those who never knew God in the first place.
So when one is a Christian we are not to earn a living... How very bigoted you are. I applaud those who can earn a living being a Christian at the same time I agree anyone, I mean anyone Christian or not who evades taxes should get punished.
mike & liz said:
"Sadly for you and a few others who post is that Ray, Ham, Hovind, etc (includes my wife and I) have no reason to lie about evolution."
You can't really lie about something you have no knowlede of.
You say what you do about evolution out of pure ignorance.
Ray,
Then I'm glad we could find common ground in humor :)
@Christians,
A serious point though...we have seen through the years so many Evangelical leaders and faith-based politicians in scandal after scandal. The hypocrisy becomes so frequent that it becomes hard to know who you can and can’t trust.
I’m not saying that that gives skeptics a good enough reason to indict Ray Comfort as an insincere fraud or to expect him to be found involved in some scandal. But when we see Ray knowingly misrepresent science or skeptic’s views or pedal WOTM wares as an answer to someone’s question, well, it sends up red flags, that’s all.
I guess that’s the good thing about being an amoral atheist…people already expect the worst.
P.S. Unlike Ray, I really do want your money. Please send it to me.
Thanks!
I was going to answer to this, yet ...
"Sadly for you and a few others who post is that Ray, Ham, Hovind, etc (includes my wife and I) have no reason to lie about evolution."
With, even if this were true, you still do lie.
None of you Fundamentalists noticed any problem with the "evolution video," right? That proves the point, you are so blinded, that you cannot see dishonesty when it comes from your idolized masters (such as Ray).
So, go and see the refuting of the video. What do you have to lose? You still will not be able to note the trickery, nor the dishonesty on Ray and Kirk's misrepresentation of evolution, and might have another cynical laugh at these skeptics. But maybe, just maybe, you could watch it with an open mind?
I truly mean it, it is not whether you should accept evolution or not, it is just about lying about it with a very poor understanding of what it is.
G.E.
weemaryanne said...
"ShiVeR(curtis), I thought you promised no more of that tedious Macarthur dude"
When did I promise that? I generally don't post the MacArthur articles for you unbelievers, If I want to try and reach the non-believers I'll post scripture, for only scripture has the power to change your hard heart, it is the power of God unto salvation.
MacArthur, Piper, Sproul and the Puritan's are generally beyond you intellectually and scripture is beyond you spiritually, so I really don't expect you to rightly understand either. But I post to you knowing that God is sovereign and only He can give you repentance, faith, life, and godliness.
dale said... "John MacArthur is a sophist and a fraud."
Can you give support to your slanderous statement, or are you, like always, basing you argument on nothing?
Proverbs 10:18
The one who conceals hatred has lying lips,and whoever utters slander is a fool.
Michelle said..."A preacher once said: "if you're not getting resistance or opposition, you're not being effective.""
Was that Adrian Rogers? Just curious.
NaFa said...
Ray,
You always talk about Hell, the burning of flesh, the gnashing of teeth, etc...
I have a pretty good concept of what you think Hell is, but no idea really about Heaven.
So, I have a request...could you describe Heaven for us. What's that like? What goes on there? Where is it?
Actually a really great book you could read is {Randy Alcorn's, Heaven}, or you could read the bible, Revelation would be a good place to start, also there is lots about Heaven in the prophets.
ALSO, about Heaven, the focal point of Heaven will be Jesus Christ, so if you're not right with Him you wouldn't like Heaven to much.
Paul Washer once said about many of the false Christians and unbelievers in general,"Everyone wants to goto Heaven, they just don't want the God of the bible to be there when they get there." Those who hate God will hate Heaven's glory.
[QUOTE]
{{{@Christians,
A serious point though...we have seen through the years so many Evangelical leaders and faith-based politicians in scandal after scandal. The hypocrisy becomes so frequent that it becomes hard to know who you can and can’t trust...}}}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[REPLY]
I fully agree - and you left out the
...the teacher scandals
...the Hollywood scandals
...the police scandals
...the military scandals
...the non faith based politician scandals
...the hospital scandals
Need I go on?
If your faith is in men (people) - you will always, always, be disappointed. There is only One that will never lie, cheat, still, defile or in any way disappoint you - and that is the Lord God Almighty.
Only with a faith that is founded on The Rock have I been able to navigate through the stench of mankind's sin. Yes, there have been good people and faithful friends - that have crossed my path on this journey of life - but my hope is not in them, only in Christ Jesus.
I have been around too long and had disappointments and tragedies a time or two (understatement here) - and the Lord has been faithful in every one of them, even when those that were suppose to be looking out for me were not. It is only th eLord that has saved the lives of my children (several times), kept my husband and I (happily) together (Sat. will be 28 years) and brought us through illness and financial loss and .... well, lots of things.
So, please don't trust any of us (Christians) - just trust the Lord and believe what He says. Pray and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. Pray this not with a skeptic's heart, but one really looking for the Truth -- and then be willing to obey the truth revealed to you.
Praying for you as I go cook supper for the family...
Patti
Thanks Ray your post today gave me yet another reason to praise God for all he has done for me, (the nightmares stopped). I got to thinking about the nightmares I would have before my relationship with Christ Jesus. I would be falling to my death and hit the ground and die, only to wake up in hell! Naked and trying to find some where to hide and could not, as I would watch as large darkened wing creatures would be casting men and women into a large pool of molten rock glowing a bright yellowish orange, and boy was it hot!!! Then I would wake up screaming...Ray frankly I think God was telling me to change or else. What do you think?
Ray, although I never remember being an evolutionist nor an athesist I can understand when
captain howdy said...
@Ray--
You're not just trying to get me to join a religion. You're trying to get me to join your religion.
I used to think of Christianity as a religion too.
I was raised a catholic a religion and I mean a system set up where you had to follow rules and regulations and then you might go to heaven based on your good works. When I became disillusioned after hearing the priest telling dirty jokes and left the catholics.
I stumbled around and studied the different religions of the world and practiced quite a few of them. I found all, (but Christianity), religions have a path to follow, a set of rules and regs, to reach God in heaven.
There is no path, there is nothing you can do, you can't earn your way to God in heaven though good works or living as a good person.
God tells us in
Isaiah 64:6
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life...
It's about having a personal relationship with God who lives in me day in and day out. I know He is there, because I am not empty in my heart anymore. Before I asked God to forgive me of my sins against Him and asked Jesus Christ into my heart. I was empty, dead in my heart, I had no love for anyone or anything. My heart was like a great empty expanse filled with loneliness, pain, misery, etc.
Ray you are always in my prayers!!!
That goes also for the others who chime in, Christian, atheist, or whoever!
weemaryanne said...
"ShiVeR(curtis), I thought you promised no more of that tedious Macarthur dude"
weemaryanne, He puts up the terrific Macarthur material by popular request. Well, my request anyway. I had told him that I had never read a Macarthur book and I liked what I saw here. In fact, they are just about the only long posts that I don't skip over.
Craig
Scott Moore:
As for the "why be subtle?" question, most successful christian prosthletizers are subtle. Your con is obvious. You call me a fool and then say "not my words." Of course they are your words. You wrote them as if they were fact. Such a blatent lie on your part tells me all I need about your "pearls."
Most of the atheist on this site seem to be against Ray and his beliefs because they feel that his rejection of evolution is somehow bad or even evil. Many of them claim that this attitude is harmful to science.
This position seems ironic me. I believe that uniformity of thought is harmful to science. The way science has progressed thus far has been by critical thinking and the will to follow the evidence. Even though it may not lead them to popularity or prestige.
Do you ( evolutionist ) really think that if there was a consensus among all people that evolution alone explains our origin, the world would then be a better place and science would be improved?
The bible says heaven is a city, a kingdom of God to dwell in for all eternity.
"the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).
"the everlasting habitations" (Luke 16:9)
"Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, or a stone of crystal-clear jasper...the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone...And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass...the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb" (Revelation 21:11, 18, 19, 21, 23)
Psalm 16:11 tells us: "In Thy presence is fulness of joy; in Thy right hand there are pleasures forever."
Heaven is eternity with God, hell is eternity without Him.
Shiver
Thanks, I'll look into the book when I get a chance.
I guess I'm also interested - just out of curiousity- in hearing what some of the Christians expect.
Thanks again.
Fourkid,
Of course you are correct, but...
This blog (Soap Box) is about Christianity and Ray is using this blog to preach Chritianity.
This blog in particular (Some Personal Questions) was about his motive, that is why my reponse was about Chirtian leaders rather policemen, actors, etc...The hypocrisy and dishonesty in some Christian leaders leads to a schism of trust between atheist and Christians trying to spread their message to us. If we don't think we can trust the person preaching, then we're not going to take their motives or message seriuosly (well, to be honest, even if this weren't the case I probaly still wouldn't take the meassage seriuosly, but I would trust their motives were sincere). The fact is, Ray has knowingly misrepresented science and some skeptics views, and that creates a schism of trust.
Before you can expect an atheist to pray and have faith you have convince them there is a God.
Thanks Lauren.
Mike and Lizette's Travels and Thoughts said...
So when one is a Christian we are not to earn a living... How very bigoted you are. I applaud those who can earn a living being a Christian at the same time I agree anyone, I mean anyone Christian or not who evades taxes should get punished.
endquote
I guess your reading comprehension skills are lacking. I resnet the fact that Ray is misrepresenting science. He can publish all the Christian tracts he cares to for all I care about it, but when he starts to deliberately parade his ignorance about science and willfully misleads that is where I have a major problem.
Is not one of the commandments :Thou Shalt not give false testimony?
Read the evidence that exists. I am not saying become a paleontologist, but quit letting someone mislead you.
@ Shiver again
I said..."I guess I'm also interested - just out of curiousity- in hearing what some of the Christians expect."
I know you're a Christian, sorry, I think worded the above poorly, I meant to say 'what some of you Christians expect in your own words'.
Thanks
Weemaryanne,
You sacred me with that fundy impersonation. I thought we were gonna have to lure you back to the dark side with cookies! ;)
[QUOTE]
{{{...Before you can expect an atheist to pray and have faith you have convince them there is a God.}}}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[REPLY]
While the Scripture says (Heb. 11:6) that those that will draw near to God must believe He is - That isn't quite what I was saying.
Ask God to come to you - to reveal Himself to you. I rememeber praying that a lot - even from the time I was a very young child. It wasn't until I was 17 that the Lord revealed Himself to me - but when He did - there was no doubt who was there. I don't mean He literally "appeared" or audibly "spoke" - but it was very clear that God was present and offered me an opportunity to accept Him as Savior.
You are looking in the wrong place to be convinced of the truth of the existence of the living God in asking us (Christians) to prove He exists. Neither I, not anyone here, can do that for you - but God can! Ask Him to reveal Himself to you.
That is a good first step. You just might be surprised - I was.
Blessings,
Patti
Mofi,
"Most of the atheist on this site seem to be against Ray and his beliefs because they feel that his rejection of evolution is somehow bad or even evil. Many of them claim that this attitude is harmful to science."
Why will you not read what we say carefully? It is harmful to science to be MISREPRESENTED. True disagreements in science come from true evidences, not from disregarding evidences, not from misquoting scientists (if you try and find those quotes to Darwin in On The Origin of Species, you will see that Darwin is actually offering proofs that dispel those arguments against evolution), not from lying about the fossil record.
So, yes, disagreement helps science advance, but well supported disagreement, not the cynical stuff presented by creationists such as WOTM.
Take a look yourself, see that post at flinging dust's web site about debunking WOTM's evolution. Then tell me again that Ray's stuff might be good for science.
G.E.
"I am not afraid of death, Mr. Comfort. Perhaps I was once, when I was less mature, but there is nothing really to fear. And even if there was something to fear, why fear the inevitable? Why worry yourself over something that you cannot change?"
Ha!! Pardon me, but this statement is so naive, its LAUGHABLE. This ridiculous statement is very easy to say as you sit in your jammies in comfort at your computer, sipping tea and reading this blog. Quite another thing when you are at death's door. When you have a cancer that's inoperable, you are stuck in a hospital bed, unable to move or care for yourself, having others feed you, bathe you and take care of your toilet needs; unable to even advocate for yourself, and simply waiting to die as your organs slowly shut down.
Someday you will be there, dying because you are at the point where your precious science can't save you anymore. You won't have anywhere to look but UP. If someone showed your own quote to you at that point you would probably want to slap your own self in the face. You can only WISH you would be so cavalier about coming to the REALITY of the end of your life.
I feel sorry for you, Andrew Douglas. You say Christianity is a crutch, but your atheism is the biggest crutch of all. You lean on your crutch so you can spend your life in complete denial of your own impending death. Your crutch holds you completely unaccountable for your actions. Once you die, that's the end, and your corpse just gets kicked into the ground! What a joke. You have obviously never had to bury someone who meant the world to you.
Life is precious. And there is a precious God who not only created us, He offered up His life so we can spend eternity with Him in paradise.
NaFa said...
"Ray,
Then I'm glad we could find common ground in humor :)
@Christians,
A serious point though...we have seen through the years so many Evangelical leaders and faith-based politicians in scandal after scandal. The hypocrisy becomes so frequent that it becomes hard to know who you can and can’t trust"
Ever read the parable about the wheat and the tares?
The Parable of the Weeds
-------------------------
He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?' He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field." He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
-------------------------
There are many who seem to be Christians, but are false converts. It's hard to distinguish the true and the false. The faithful and the hypocrite.
Notice who does the sowing, Jesus, when He plants "the good seed" of the gospel it WILL grow. Satan plants his seeds, and they endure along side the true Christians, looking much like the wheat in every respect, but with one fatal problem, Jesus did not plant them, and they will be burned with fire.
Really there is only one you can trust fully, only one who is the embodiment of truth, Jesus Christ.
stranger.strange.land said... weemaryanne said...
"ShiVeR(curtis), I thought you promised no more of that tedious Macarthur dude"
weemaryanne, He puts up the terrific Macarthur material by popular request. Well, my request anyway. I had told him that I had never read a Macarthur book and I liked what I saw here. In fact, they are just about the only long posts that I don't skip over.
Craig"
If you want to read more from him and like minded, go to Pulpit Magazine. Also another great resource site is Grace Online Library. Just search for them.
In Christ, Curtis
NaFa said...
"Shiver
Thanks, I'll look into the book when I get a chance.
I guess I'm also interested - just out of curiousity- in hearing what some of the Christians expect.
Thanks again."
Just so you know, they also have a childrens(teen) version of this book(Heaven, by Randy Alcorn). It's basically a simplified version, but uses virtually all the same bible references, if you want an easier, quicker read. If you use Amazon you may find it cheap, but otherwise Christianbook. It's actually a very good presentation of the biblical teaching on Heaven.
I hope you enjoy it. God bless you.
weemaryanne said... "While it’s true that humans share many experiences, it does not follow that this makes everyone more or less the same. Humans are individuals, and it's the individual who decides (consciously or otherwise) what's right and what's wrong and how to conduct oneself accordingly."
If what you say is true then what if someone decides (consciously or otherwise)that rape and murder is ok or even a good thing, what gives anyone the right to say otherwise? You have no basis for morality, this is ultimately where atheistic and evolutionary thinking leads.
flinging dust said...
"Weemaryanne,
You sacred me with that fundy impersonation. I thought we were gonna have to lure you back to the dark side with cookies! ;)"
Sadly, this is more true than you know.
Proverbs 19:28
A worthless witness mocks at justice,and the mouth of the wicked devours iniquity.
Pubilus,
That response was about what I expected to the letter...not much. Nothing new under the sun today. Was that comment really worth me hanging around for!!
And some con I got goin right, I'm really rackin up..On whatever it is you claim I'm after......right and you call me a liar after that statement...
See ya
@ shriver:
Please find your sense of humor!! ;)
Shiver,
If what you say is true then what if someone decides (consciously or otherwise)that rape and murder is ok or even a good thing, what gives anyone the right to say otherwise? You have no basis for morality, this is ultimately where atheistic and evolutionary thinking leads.
Yes we do. We have the capacity for moral thinking, closely linked to our ability to empathise with others. It is innate. We have the ability to imagine things to. We have the ability to dream. These things will not dissapear if the bible doesn't tell how to do them. Do you think that someone who has no God belief is by default immoral? I have the oppertunity to do many immoral things and get away with it. Why don't I do these things? I have no fear of judgement by a higher power. We have come to consensus about most overt moral issues like rape and murder. Do you need an imaginary judge looking over your shoulder to conduct yourself like a decent human being?
ShiVeR(Curtis)
Thanks, Curtis.
I'll check out Pulpit Magazine. I found graceonlinelibrary a few months ago when searching for material by Warfield and Boettner.
Craig
p.s. (July's Tabletalk - [Ligonier Ministries] should be interesting. Shhhhhhhh; Don't let the atheists know about it.)
Fourkid…”You are looking in the wrong place to be convinced of the truth of the existence of the living God in asking us (Christians) to prove He exists. Neither I, not anyone here, can do that for you - but God can! Ask Him to reveal Himself to you.”
Hi Patti,
Thanks for your response.
I hear this said a lot – that God does the revealing. If that is so, then I’m confused about what the point of evangelizing is. I was under the impression that evangelizing was to convince people there is a God, that God is Jesus, and we need to repent to Him. No?
Also here’s the thing about an atheist trying pray to God. I can not, at this point in my life, pray to God and be sincere about it anymore then I could sincerely write a letter to Santa Claus. And please understand the context I’m using God here. I mean the God of the Bible. I’m open to the possibly of a god, some intelligent being that put it all in motion. I think it’s unlikely, but possible. But as far as the God of Abraham/Jesus Christ, I believe in that Being as much as I do Santa.
So, there’s the problem. If He exists, either He has to reveal Himself to me or some Christian has to convince me of His existence. And seems from what I’ve read here that He does the revealing. So, unless that time comes probably you can understand why I remain a skeptic.
Hi Curtis (Shiver),
Thanks. Yes, I do remember that parable. The one about the seeds that fall some on good soil, some on rocks, etc… had the same point, right?
I’d like to share with you an atheist perspective…
Ironically, I watched a documentary last night about Evangelical Christianity in America. Ted Haggard was featured in this documentary prominently. I actually have mixed feelings about this guy. He’s just human and as imperfect as any of us. I feel bad that he had to hide who he really was for so many years. That must have been quite a difficult inner struggle for him. In my view, he would have been a much happier and healthier person if he just admitted and accepted who he was. But lying to ones self is always a disaster.
But, on the other hand, he did it to himself. He spent his life pointing out the immorality and flaws in others. And that’s what happens – when one spends a lifetime doing that, you set yourself up for a mighty big fall.
Of course, it would be an unfair hyperbole to compare Ray to Haggard. But, we (skeptics) know that has Ray knowingly misrepresented facts. He is deceitful at times. So, why should I trust that he’s being honest about anything? Just like Haggard, he’s done it to himself
Emily said:
Ha!! Pardon me, but this statement is so naive, its LAUGHABLE. This ridiculous statement is very easy to say as you sit in your jammies in comfort at your computer, sipping tea and reading this blog. Quite another thing when you are at death's door. When you have a cancer that's inoperable, you are stuck in a hospital bed, unable to move or care for yourself, having others feed you, bathe you and take care of your toilet needs; unable to even advocate for yourself, and simply waiting to die as your organs slowly shut down.
Someday you will be there, dying because you are at the point where your precious science can't save you anymore. You won't have anywhere to look but UP. If someone showed your own quote to you at that point you would probably want to slap your own self in the face. You can only WISH you would be so cavalier about coming to the REALITY of the end of your life.
I feel sorry for you, Andrew Douglas. You say Christianity is a crutch, but your atheism is the biggest crutch of all. You lean on your crutch so you can spend your life in complete denial of your own impending death. Your crutch holds you completely unaccountable for your actions. Once you die, that's the end, and your corpse just gets kicked into the ground! What a joke. You have obviously never had to bury someone who meant the world to you.
Life is precious. And there is a precious God who not only created us, He offered up His life so we can spend eternity with Him in paradise.
I will pray for you, Emily.
dale said... You can't really lie about something you have no knowlede of.
You say what you do about evolution out of pure ignorance.
Dale that may be your opinion and I understand that, but as a Christian, I get what I know from someone smarter than any man including ignorant little me, in fact He left us a book with His declaration of His Creation. I know you have heard about Him but yet don't know Him.
get_education said... None of you Fundamentalists noticed any problem with the "evolution video," right? That proves the point, you are so blinded, that you cannot see dishonesty when it comes from your idolized masters (such as Ray).
Sorry the video is a sad joke, my dear friend you have false assumptions like many other atheists that I as a Christian would be blind to what you present you keep forgetting (I can't speak totally for others), that before being a Christian I used to believe this evolutionary lie. The ones that are truly blind are those who deny God and His testimony to the world.
flinging dust said... There are videos on my blog that clearly and in no uncertain terms debunk all of the garbage that Ray and Kirk pit out there as 'science'. But I do not suspect that even if you did see them you would know enough about science to understand it and that is the problem. Those that don't know are easily fleeced.
Read what I said to get_education.
iago said... Is not one of the commandments :Thou Shalt not give false testimony?
Read the evidence that exists. I am not saying become a paleontologist, but quit letting someone mislead you.
So you want Christians to lie let alone make God out to be a liar... Sorry that is a no go, I as a Christian refuse to make God out to be a liar let alone support a lie that is evolution. As for my reading skills, they are just fine also you can resent all you want I believe since Ray is a Christian he will not lie about evolution since it contradicts the creation that God has declared. ;)
Great article, Ray! It's far easier to accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God than to deny that God exists. After all, doubt is always painful.. but belief heals the soul. That shows that atheism is contrary to human nature. I guess evolutionists forgot to work that into their theories!
Peace & Health,
Brian
Emily:
Such a pretty name, and so arrogant.
I'm not completely sure, but I think I've been closer to death than you have. And I don't mean when I went into Kuwait in February of '91.
In November of 2000 I was in a serious head on MVA. I blacked out because of high blood glucose and crossed the centerline. When I came to I was in a neck brace and the motor and dash of my car were in my lap and the steering wheel was pinned against my upper body and the rescue workers were trying to extricate me. My injuries were from head to toe and quite serious. During the life flight I went into full arrest. Later, during my first major surgery I went into full arrest. I remember the first arrest but not the second. Some days later I was lying there and I had a sudden onset of chest pain and difficulty breathing. Heart disease runs in the family so I assumed I has having a heart attack. I struggled some. I tried harder to breathe. I became frightened. Then I accepted that I was dying, that I would soon be dead. I stopped struggling. I thought about my life, the good and bad. I accepted it and it was the most peaceful I have ever felt in my life. It turns out it was an pulmonary embolism, the symptoms of which are similar to a heart attack. The clot was dissolved (due to medical science) and I survived. I have very little fear of death, though I have some anxiety about how I get there. During that time I also had some experience with some of the other things you mentioned; not being able to move much, having to be bathed and cleaned, having someone else wipe my ___ (after the colostomy bag was removed), all kinds of fun stuff. So, I can't speak for Andrew Douglas or anyone else, but I don't worry much about death, or hell, or heaven. I concentrate on this life, living it as best I can and trying to help others do the same.
There's nothing in the Bible to suggest evolution - you're just making excuses!
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Professing to be wise, they became fools,and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
weemaryanne said... "You also shrug off someone's observations on corruption in the church with the parable of the wheat and the tares. Fine. But didja ever notice that most of the people victimized by the "tares" are -- ahem -- Christians?"
How do "you" know they ARE Christians, and besides that, I have never said Christians don't sin anymore, Christians are those who God has saved from His wrath, born again, elect of God, and justified by the shed blood of Christ imputed to their account. Though we sin, we are broken over it, and God is growing us in righteousness, but yes sadly we are still sinners. The point of the parable though is that there are false converts, and it is God who will reveal them in the end.
AND,"I'm not surprised that corruption occurs in an institution where unremarkable men are placed in positions of power over people who've been instructed to obey and never question."
Who ever said we are to never question? When someone is clearly doing something or teaching something that is contrary to scripture we are not only question it but to openly approach them, then others in thr church, then the church as a whole, to expose their sin. The bible even teaches proper church disipline, though it is very seldom practiced due to the lack of sound biblical pastors and elders in the professing church. Low view of scripture will always yield weak churches filled with false converts. We are commanded to obey the bible, not traditions of man that are opposed to scripture.
AND,"I'm only surprised that the Real Believers don't go after these guys with weapons-grade herbicide, or its equivalent -- shun them, slap up NOT WANTED posters in every post office, broadcast their crimes via every available medium. But no, all you do is shake your heads and sigh about False Converts and how your imaginary friend will sort everyone out someday."
We are told to practice church disipline, and if they refuse to repent we are not to kick them out, we want them to stay and hear the truth of the Word, but we are also told by scripture to treat them as unbelievers, that means to preach the gospel to them in hopes they will repent and put their trust in Christ, that they will surrender to God and humble themselves before Christ. It is not our job to remove people from our "church building" but to be discerning and preach the gospel to those who by their fruits evidence they are not of the "church". And yes God will sort it out, He will judge the false Christians and teachers by a more strict standard, He will not tolerate hypocrisy.
flinging dust said...
@ shriver:
Please find your sense of humor!! ;)
Hey, your post made me smile, but not much on this blog is very funny, it's rather quite sad. What grieves me most is that so many who post here are lost and will likely end up in Hell. I don't think there is much to joke about when discussing such topics. If you want to see or hear me joke catch me when I'm with my family. Though I have joy in my salvation and Redeemer, the fate of the lost is not a joking matter. Anyone who would joke about sin and Hell probably hasn't seen the depths of his wickedness, and doesn't really believe in the latter.
The Celtic Chimp said..." Do you think that someone who has no God belief is by default immoral? I have the oppertunity to do many immoral things and get away with it. Why don't I do these things? I have no fear of judgement by a higher power. We have come to consensus about most overt moral issues like rape and murder. Do you need an imaginary judge looking over your shoulder to conduct yourself like a decent human being?"
I think any person who draws breath is by nature depraved and incapable of "purely" moral actions. Our consciences are God given, and even if we didn't have the bible we would know the difference between right and wrong, however we would tend to desire, not necessarily "do", sinful acts. Apart from the bible we can still know right from wrong via the conscience, but are utterly incapable to ascend to God. Only through the bible and biblical preaching do we get the words of life. Only through the bible can we know Gods work in redemption, only through the bible can we meet Jesus Christ. This is where the 5 Sola's come in. 1 Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
2 Sola fide ("by faith alone")
3 Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
4 Solus Christus ("Christ alone")
5 Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")
You said at the end there something about a decent human being, let me ask you something. Lets say we took a dvd recording of all your sins, your actions, intents, and thoughts, every wicked thing you've ever thought, said, or done in the secret times in your life, and played it for everyone here. Think about all you've done and thought, just think of the movie it would make, do you really think you'd come accross as a, "decent human being."? The hardest thing will be for you to admit the truth.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
NaFa said... "I hear this said a lot – that God does the revealing. If that is so, then I’m confused about what the point of evangelizing is. I was under the impression that evangelizing was to convince people there is a God, that God is Jesus, and we need to repent to Him. No?"
If I may, the bible says God does the revealing through His word, and He has chosen the foolishness of preaching as His means of reaching out to lost sinners. He could have sent dreams, visions, or angels(which He has in the past) but now under the new covenant He has sealed His word, and now uses the useless to proclaim His word. God can choose to reveal Himself anyway He wills, but has chosen to use poor pitiful me.
Men have more recently began to "market" the gospel rather than to just preach it. They call it evangelizing but it nothing more than men trying to fill their church and they will, with false converts, unfortunately they preach the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel, which is a false gospel.
If you want click on my blog account and the audio clip I have their. Or goto youtube and search John Piper Prosperity gospel.
nafa said..."But, we (skeptics) know that has Ray knowingly misrepresented facts. He is deceitful at times. So, why should I trust that he’s being honest about anything?"
I don't know Ray personally, but I know where he stands on much of the essential issue of theology regarding salvation. I believe him to be a Christian and a godly man who like all Christians subject to his old sin nature. What I'm saying is he could misrepresent facts or even lie, he is human after all, but could you please give me one blatant example of either. Just one, cause if you give me what you think is a list of seemingly obvious foibles I will not respond. All I'm asking is for one lie or misrepresentation.
You know I've been here for sometime and I heard Ray preach about 3 years ago and probably hundreds of times since, but have yet to hear him tell an outright lie, though I have heard him misunderstand many, many people, I think it's the accent thing ;).
But really, could it be that what you think is a lie or misrepresentation could actually be a misunderstanding of the "facts" on your end? Someone once said, remember when you point the finger you have 3 more pointing back at you.
Mike and Liz:
You said:
"Sorry the video is a sad joke, my dear friend you have false assumptions like many other atheists that I as a Christian would be blind to what you present you keep forgetting (I can't speak totally for others), that before being a Christian I used to believe this evolutionary lie. The ones that are truly blind are those who deny God and His testimony to the world."
Everything that you have said in that paragraph is pure conjecture on your part. If you can not set forth valid, independently attestable scientific evidence for your beliefs then they are not worth addressing.
To imply that the scientific community is lying because of your invisible friend is an invalid argument.
When you can prove that I have 'false assumptions' without pointing to your 'holy book' then your argument will be worth addressing. Not until.
When you can refute, with scientific evidence the claims made in the video, then get back to me.
Thanks
fd
Shiver..."But really, could it be that what you think is a lie or misrepresentation could actually be a misunderstanding of the "facts" on your end? Someone once said, remember when you point the finger you have 3 more pointing back at you."
You're right. It could be I am misundertanding what Ray is saying. That is possible. But I'm just telling it like I see it.
Day after day, professional scientist correct Ray's mistakes on evolution. Ray's been given so much information he should have his PhD in biology by now and be ready to start his Post-Doc. I don't think Ray is dumb, so, that's why it seems to me he is being knowingly decietful. Also, he does engage in what seems to be 'knowingly' out of context quote-mining in his books, etc...
IF, IF this mis-representation is purposeful, then why? It's not now, not ever, never ever going to work on a true skeptic only the gullible.
I admit, the chances of me converting to Christianity are slim, but if someone's being dishonest about it then slim has become none. And the bigger issue, for me, is if I see Christian leaders being dishonest/hypocrtical in evagelizing and with regards to Christianity then that makes me question their motives in other areas of society, ie. politics, education, medicine...
I don't have the ability to see True and False Converts, just people.
You know, something I find really annoying about Ray is he seems like a decent, likeable (abeit silly) man. :) And for some unknown reason I think I'd be kinda dissappointed if he were caught up in a big scandal. But his consistenet decietfulness is also disappointing.
But, maybe you're right, maybe my perception of him being purposely dececietful is incorrect. Maybe.
As far as 3 fingers pointed at me. That's fine. I am in no way above questioning and criticism.
Shiver,
Sorry, I forgot to give you the specific examples you asked for. I don't have time to go through the past blogs right now...but as a quick exmaple...he was specifically shown why the 'Crocoduck' was a blatant misrepresentation of what the TOE says. He then comes back at a later time with the 'Cowt' and 'Humanaphant'. That appears to me like he is being knowingly decietful.
Get Ed, for one, has stated many times that one doen't have to accept evolution as fact, but at least understand what it actually says. Ray should, by now, know what the TOE actually says, and if he continues to misrepresent what it actually says then he's lying
@mike and lizette--
get_education said... None of you Fundamentalists noticed any problem with the "evolution video," right? That proves the point, you are so blinded, that you cannot see dishonesty when it comes from your idolized masters (such as Ray).
Sorry the video is a sad joke, my dear friend you have false assumptions like many other atheists that I as a Christian would be blind to what you present you keep forgetting (I can't speak totally for others), that before being a Christian I used to believe this evolutionary lie. The ones that are truly blind are those who deny God and His testimony to the world.
****************************
You claim evolution is a lie, and you've said it a number of times, but what evidence have you submitted to us to prove your claim?
I mean--is this your whole case? 'It's all a lie! There's no evidence! Scientists are all evil liars!'
I've asked quite a few of the other religious fundamentalists this; it's your turn:
Biologists say that HERVs are compelling evidence for common ancestry. Please provide the scientific evidence that convinced you they're wrong.
None of the sheep have been able to answer this. You won't, either.
[QUOTE]
{{{Hi Patti,
Thanks for your response.
I hear this said a lot – that God does the revealing. If that is so, then I’m confused about what the point of evangelizing is. I was under the impression that evangelizing was to convince people there is a God, that God is Jesus, and we need to repent to Him. No?}}}
[REPLY]
That would be a yes, and a no.
There are Christians that do believe that there is no need for evangelizing, for the reasons you mention here - but that is not the way I read Scripture.
Christians are COMMANDED to go and preach the Gospel and teach all men (and woman). The way God has chosen to work is through "the foolishness of preaching" and there is a release of His power when this is done.
As a Christian, I am to give a testimony of witness to unbelievers - but if you are only believing because I convince you - then you are still lost. It takes the power of God to truly bring repentence and the ability to turn from your sin to a holy GOd.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[QUOTE]
{{{Also here’s the thing about an atheist trying pray to God. I can not, at this point in my life, pray to God and be sincere about it anymore then I could sincerely write a letter to Santa Claus. And please understand the context I’m using God here. I mean the God of the Bible. I’m open to the possibly of a god, some intelligent being that put it all in motion. I think it’s unlikely, but possible. But as far as the God of Abraham/Jesus Christ, I believe in that Being as much as I do Santa.}}}
You are very clear and sincere. That is a really good place to begin. I can so clearly remember being in the very same place. Prayer isn't some mystical recitation of certain "holy" words.
Here is what you could do. Say these very words as a prayer - I don't believe in "canned' prayers, but an example could be something like:
God, I don't really believe in you any more than I do Santa Claus - but there are others that say you exist. If you do exist, please reveal yourself to me - I will commit to being open to hearing when (if) you reply.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[QUOTE]
{{{So, there’s the problem. If He exists, either He has to reveal Himself to me or some Christian has to convince me of His existence. And seems from what I’ve read here that He does the revealing. So, unless that time comes probably you can understand why I remain a skeptic. }}}
I do understand - and I was in the same place at one time. This is not a problem for a God who designed the universe. I have seen it over and over. You just need to be prepared to recognize Him when He does reveal Himself to you - and then take the opportunity that you are given to repent and accept Jesus as your Savior.
I have seen grown men brought to their face on the floor with the realization of their sin and hopeless condition - and seen them get up a new person - broken, humbled and now serving God with the same fervor that they denied Him. What Paul experienced as written in the book of Acts - is the same offer for anyone today.
Blessings as you seek to know the truth,
Patti
NaFa said... "I don't think Ray is dumb, so, that's why it seems to me he is being knowingly decietful. Also, he does engage in what seems to be 'knowingly' out of context quote-mining in his books, etc..."
First I'd like to thank you for not being arrogant in your response. Secondly, I appreciate what you have to say, and I think I understand your perspective, however whenever someone makes general accusations without direct examples I tend to question not only the validity of the accusation but the motive. So if I may again, could you give reference directly to any specific claim, misrepesentation, or form of decept, again let me stress a list of foibles or character infirmity will not, nor should not be responded to.
I've heard use of "quote mining", but to be honest of the many times that I heard this accusation, upon reading the quote in context, it would seem that many times it was used correctly. And for the other times, it is hard to tell, some people double talk, speaking from both positions, or don't reveal enough to draw a difinitive conclution. In the case of Albert Einstein for example he was clearly an agnostic as he plainly states it.
In a 1950 letter to M. Berkowitz, Einstein stated that "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment. However, Einstein made clear that he did not espouse atheism: "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
He was wise enough to admit there "could" be a god(little g). True wisdom never draws absolute conclusions from the uncertain, or inconceivable. This is why there really is no such thing as a rational atheist by definition. To deny Gods existence without proof of nonexistence is foolish(not meant to offend) not wise. This is why I think Einstein was wise, but before you accuse me of quote mining him just because I quote something you either misunderstand about the man or just don't want to admit to the truth about what he said or believed, I quoted this directly from the encyclopedia.
Please understand, I'm not trying to start controversy on this type of subject, but only to help you see it from another perspective. I may have my facts wrong on this issue, I will willingly admit, I'm wrong alot, but when it comes to issues of theology and doctorine be very, very sure what you say is ABSOLUTELY true before you proport it as much. Just something I've learned.
Think of it this way, 1000 years ago science "knew" the earth was flat, few questioned it, but those that did were nut jobs. Now we "know" it to be a sphere, when we see it from space it seems so obvious, and we think, "how could those nut jobs have believed otherwise?" My point is, what "seems" obvious today will likely be laughed at in a few hundred years. I still hold that for over 2ooo years the bible is unchanged(other than grammatically in various languages) and still stands as true, and you'll have to just trust me I've read much from almost every perspective I know of, I realize this admition opens me up for criticism but I now "know" the truth, because I know the truth giver, Jesus Christ.
NaFa said... "He then comes back at a later time with the 'Cowt' and 'Humanaphant'. That appears to me like he is being knowingly decietful."
It seems this was a poke of sorts against evolutionary thinking. Funny, well yes,but probably uncalled for. As Christains we are called to rebuke, reprove and proclaim the truth, unfortunately as sinful men we can still tend toward sarcasm and satirical comments, I'm sure Ray is aware that to be arrogant or overbearing is sinful, and if he has done that then it is sinful. But when it comes to presenting the gospel, which is itself offensive, we preach it no matter the opposition.
This is not Pascals wager, but what if Ray is right, think about it. What if you are just misreading the evidence for evolution. You said before about God revealing Himself to you, He is, right now, what are you going to do, keep rejecting Him and His lordship, or are you going to admit you could be wrong, surrender, and see what God does, He may open your eyes in such a way,as He did mine, that the truth of Jesus Christ becomes more real that this physical world which is only temporary.
@ Patti:
I have a serious question.
You said:
"Here is what you could do. Say these very words as a prayer - I don't believe in "canned' prayers, but an example could be something like:
God, I don't really believe in you any more than I do Santa Claus - but there are others that say you exist. If you do exist, please reveal yourself to me - I will commit to being open to hearing when (if) you reply.
What about those of us who have done so many, many times and got nothing?
Jason said: I will pray for you, Emily.
Thanks Jason, but my Father is Jesus Christ. I don't serve the "god" you pray to.
"What about those of us who have done so many, many times and got nothing?"
The short answer is, keep praying until you get an answer. If you are sincere in wanting to know God, your eyes will be opened to the Truth.
Here is my experience. The Bible says, "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Keep searching for the true creator of the universe at any cost, that may mean for you to embrace the concept that ... the Bible could be TRUE.
When I prayed this for myself, I didn't believe in the authority of the Bible. Not only did I not believe in it (thought it was useless garbage) but I also didn't WANT it to be true. At the time that I prayed this for myself, it was really, to my mind at the time, a "shout out" to the universe. I figured if there really was a "God" he could read my mind, so I just "prayed" in my head. I don't remember how long it took to get my answer, I think it was a year or two. But, I did get my answer. And if you sincerely want an answer, you will get one too. =)
Shiver:
"Just one, cause if you give me what you think is a list of seemingly obvious foibles I will not respond. All I'm asking is for one lie or misrepresentation."
Right, because you believe you can give a plausible-sounding explanation for one lie and say it wasn't really a lie. If he were to take the time and provide a "laundry list" of misquotes, the pattern would be evident and your attempt at explanation implausible.
In any event his use of quotations in this blog is relatively sparse and I'm sure he knows to be careful at the moment.
brian simmons said--
Great article, Ray! It's far easier to accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God than to deny that God exists. After all, doubt is always painful.. but belief heals the soul. That shows that atheism is contrary to human nature. I guess evolutionists forgot to work that into their theories!
Peace & Health,
Brian
************************
Well, first off--Hi and welcome to the blog! I'm Captain Howdy, one of Ray's hecklers.
Is it fair to say you're a born-again Christian AND an evolution denier?
[QUOTE]
flinging dust
@ Patti:
{{{I have a serious question.
You said:
"Here is what you could do. Say these very words as a prayer - I don't believe in "canned' prayers, but an example could be something like:
God, I don't really believe in you any more than I do Santa Claus - but there are others that say you exist. If you do exist, please reveal yourself to me - I will commit to being open to hearing when (if) you reply.
What about those of us who have done so many, many times and got nothing? }}}
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[REPLY]
First -- I wish you weren't 3,000 miles away - but I will try to be clear in this little blog space - though after I read what I have posted - I always think I could have said it better or clearer (and made a ton of typos I failed to catch!)
Second - God isn't confined to time or space, and we struggle with understanding that since we are limited in those areas. I can remember first being aware of God when I was 3 or 4. By high school I had left thoughts of God far behind. Looking back I can now see many times and ways that God was making a way for me to come to Him - but while walking along that path it was clear as mud to me. From the time I was 3 or 4, until I repented and accepted Jesus was about 15 years. It took that long for all the parts to come together and my heart was ready to be humbled.
So when I say pray and ask God to reveal Himself to you - I hope I didn't leave the impression that you pray ~ and Boom! ~ the answer appears. Keep praying, and keep seeking.
Third - In Matt. 10 (verse 28), Jesus says: "And fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell," From there the next couple verses go on to tell how valuable each one of us is to the Lord. So valuable that He came and gave up his reputaion, His will, and His body to die on the cross.
Our body is the least valuable posession we have - it is our soul (mind, will, and emotions) that has the real value. Sometimes the enemy tries to convince us otherwise and say that because of what was done to our bodies we have a "right" to be angry about that - but really we don't, because in reality we only hurt ourselves, and so the damage is multiplied.
By giving place to the anger, you allow enemy strongholds to be built in your life and those strongholds always come with tormenters.
Fourth and finally - You do know that it isn't an "accident" that you are here on this blog? Even now God is answering your prayers. He won't zap all your life into perfect peace and harmony, He doesn't work like that. But one by one the threads are being woven into a tapestry that will (if you let it) save your soul and glorify the Lord.
Blessings,
Patti
@ Emily:
Thanks for the answer, but that question was for Patti.
But now a question for you.
Why would a deity have to asked repeatedly, especially if it is a child asking not to be abused or someone praying for the welfare of another human being??
Emily said:
Thanks Jason, but my Father is Jesus Christ. I don't serve the "god" you pray to.
That's interesting, because my God also has a son named Jesus. Maybe they know each other. You're lucky Ray even approved that comment, what with you referring to Jesus as "god".
Seriously, what are you, 14?
@ Emily:
Actually, never mind, I'm not in the least interested in anything you have to say. I just realized that you were the one who was so incredibly and ignorantly rude to Dale in another post.
Don't bother replying to me.
@ Patti:
Thanks for the answer and your kind demeanor.
I am curious as to how you, personally, resolve the issue of theodicy within the context of your faith?
I realize that you and I briefly touched on this before as it related to me personally, but in the general view, such as issues like genocide and the Holocaust, how do resolve theodicy?
Hey Shiver
I think the best way for me to respond to your most recent posts is to clarify my personal views.
I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school growing up. Maybe they weren’t ‘real’ Christians, that’s fine. The point is the God concept is not something new to me. My atheism is not an overnight whim. It is the result of many years of reflecting on the issue.
The way I approach issues that are important to me is: I research them, I evaluate the evidence, I think about it and I form a conclusion. My conclusion with regards to God is I do not see enough evidence to make a positive claim that such a Being exist. Could one exist? Sure. But at this time I see no reason to positively claim or assume one does. And that’s all my atheism is.
Could I be wrong about atheism/evolution/God/Christianity? Yes! I could be absolutely 100% wrong about all those things and everything else I believe! But I have to follow the evidence where it leads me and this is where it has lead me.
I don’t think Ray is misrepresenting the Gospel and Christianity. I just think he is using dishonest tactics to present the Gospel.
Some examples which I perceive to be dishonest are:
Quote-mining: Karl Marx (Opiate of the Masses), Oscar Wilde (Wilde Oates), Stephen Hawking (Smartest Man Alive)
Misrepresenting views & information: transitional fossils (How to Spot a Con), atheism (Interesting Trivia), curing homosexuality (Curing Homosexuality).
Ok. So perhaps I’m wrong and Ray’s misrepresentations are Not intentional. Ray is only human and it is not fair to expect him to be any closer to perfection than the rest of us. But if it is the result of human error, then the man sure does seem to make the same mistakes a lot.
BTW, Happy Father’s Day!
Fourkid..."Here is what you could do. Say these very words as a prayer - I don't believe in "canned' prayers, but an example could be something like:
God, I don't really believe in you any more than I do Santa Claus - but there are others that say you exist. If you do exist, please reveal yourself to me - I will commit to being open to hearing when (if) you reply."
Hi Patti
Like I said to Shiver, the God concept is not new to me, I've thought about it for years and, as Flinging Dust mentioned, many of us prayed when we were believers and got no response.
BUT, being a 'goog skeptic' means I must always be willing to question my own beliefs (disbeliefs). So, I tell you what - I will recite your prayer on a daily basis. And who's knows, maybe I'll be suprised.
Wait a minute...I am feeing a little funny...strange..."Evolution is a Lie! Evolution is a Lie!"...Hey! Where'd that come from!?
sorry, just little silly joke :)
No, I really will say your prayer and we'll see what happens.
@ Nafa and Patti:
Nafa said:
"BUT, being a 'goog skeptic' means I must always be willing to question my own beliefs (disbeliefs). So, I tell you what - I will recite your prayer on a daily basis. And who's knows, maybe I'll be suprised."
I'm always willing to question my beliefs, so I'm in too. Maybe we should report back on our experience with this and our findings? What do you think?
[QUOTE]
{{{flinging dust
@ Patti:
Thanks for the answer and your kind demeanor.
I am curious as to how you, personally, resolve the issue of theodicy within the context of your faith?
I realize that you and I briefly touched on this before as it related to me personally, but in the general view, such as issues like genocide and the Holocaust, how do resolve theodicy? }}}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[REPLY]
Whew! I had to look that word up. Really, I'm not a Bible scholar (or any scholar in general) - I'm just a mom :) But now that I have a new vocabulary word, I will try to tackle this as best as I can with the Lord's help.
(akkk! and I need that help as I just lost about 5 praragraphs of this post as I was typing it in - still need a new mouse! So let me try this again....)
I read this question last night (Sat.) and have prayed and searched Scripture and other sources for a succint, but thorough reply. This morning (Sun.)in church, as a part of our worship service we regularly read as a congregation in unison a portion of Scripture thereby gradually working through an entire book of the Bible. As of today we are at the last chapter of Luke. This verse (below) grabbed my attention and impressed me as pertinent to your question.
"(Luke 24:7) Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again."
I see the perfect and innocent Lamb of God being given into the hands of these evil men to be abused and killed. Jesus could have called 10,000 angels to immediately rescue Him and destroy those perpetrating the evil on Him. But He saw that the temporary abuse to His body would bring lasting benefit to many millions after 3 days.
While riding home, my son #3 asked how we can make a difference on our government and have them listen to us. I said that unless he felt called to a career in politics - or some similar position of influence - there was little we can really do. The best thing is to have a strong family where the husband and wife are committed to each other until death, and have all the children that the Lord allows them, teaching them to love the Lord first in their lives. Governments come and go - but the family is the bedrock of any society.
I bring in this example to say that we need to make a difference where we are. We can't really do much ~ some, but not much ~ in the way of controling governments, but we can have a very strong influence in our family circle.
During the Holocaust there were numerous examples of bravery and doing what was right - Corrie TenBoom's book, The Hiding Place is required reading in my homeschool.
I dont' know that I answered your quesiton - I am sure not fully - as this is such a huge topic, but the scope of world governments is beyond me - I only know to help the ones whose lives touch mine, in person and on-line.
~ And I know the character of God has no evil in it - so all that He does is good ~ I don't mean it is all nice or easy or pleasant - but, He is always good.
Blessings,
Patti
[QUOTE FROM NaFa]
{{{Hi Patti
Like I said to Shiver, the God concept is not new to me, I've thought about it for years and, as Flinging Dust mentioned, many of us prayed when we were believers and got no response.
BUT, being a 'goog skeptic' means I must always be willing to question my own beliefs (disbeliefs). So, I tell you what - I will recite your prayer on a daily basis. And who's knows, maybe I'll be suprised.
[REPLY]
And I will be praying for you!
But just as a caution - remember that God's timing is not our timing.
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[QUOTE]
{{{Wait a minute...I am feeing a little funny...strange..."Evolution is a Lie! Evolution is a Lie!"...Hey! Where'd that come from!?
sorry, just little silly joke :)}}}
[REPLY]
This cracked me up! But it is sounding prophetically true!
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[QUOTE]
{{{No, I really will say your prayer and we'll see what happens.}}}
Make it your prayer - not just words I wrote for you to recite (which is one of the reasons I hesitate to do that.) I don't know your heart and your needs - but express them to God - He is not surprised nor is He limited. This is a seed - and some seeds germinate quickly; others are dormant for long periods before they take root.
Blessings,
Patti
[QUOTE]
flinging dust
@ Nafa and Patti:
{{{I'm always willing to question my beliefs, so I'm in too. Maybe we should report back on our experience with this and our findings? What do you think? }}}
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I think it is a great idea, and I am praying too. Could I add one more suggestion? Will you read the Bible too so that the Lord has the option of using it to reply back to you? Open to where you feel impressed - but the Psalms, and the Gospels are great places to start. Mark any verses that seem to stand out to you (colored pencils work great and some markers if they don't bleed through the page - but even a pencil will work.)
If you don't have a Bible let me know and I would be glad to send one to you. (You can contact me privately about that if you wish.)
Blessings,
Patti
@ Patti:
I really, really appreciate you tackling my question! And you learned a new word too ! I love learning new stuff.
I understand that many think that man is sinful and commits crimes against others and that is why we have suffering. Theodicy has more to do with why a deity would not intervene. Mostly people say it is because of free will, but I just can't buy that.
Also, I saw your suggestion about reading the Bible during the prayer experiment (I wrote a post about the experiment on my blog) and I had thought of that, just to level the playing field in case God had something to say that I might miss.
Sooooo....while I was at Barnes and Noble today I went looking for Bibles. I used to have several, but I have moved many, many times and have had to get rid of a lot of books due to the sheer weight of them. So, anyway I went looking and I found one that looked good, I think it was the NKJV and before each book it had notes about the historical setting, the author, ect. It looked very informative even for people who were going to read it just as a casual read or were interested in the context of the books. It was almost 50 bucks!!!!! I didn't want to get one without all of the info, because, even thought I have read the Bible before and have read tons of books about how it was put together, ect. I think it helps to have contextual info. Next week I'm going back to get that one.
So, yeah, I'll try the prayer experiment.
I am not a Christian, but if I were I would hope to have your demeanor. You are always helpful and easy to talk with and you go out of your way to provide information. Thanks!!
Have a good one!
fd
[QUOTE]
flinging dust
@ Patti:
(snip)
{{{I understand that many think that man is sinful and commits crimes against others and that is why we have suffering. Theodicy has more to do with why a deity would not intervene. Mostly people say it is because of free will, but I just can't buy that.}}}
[REPLY]
I can partially agree with that. I think the answer is much more complex. It could be a result of man's free will. It could be because of sin in a person's life. It could be for the glory of God. It could be to discipline one - and encourage another. It could be to grow love and compassion in the victim. It could be to understand or appreciate the suffering of Christ more. It could be to bring about humility. It could be.......
We do not have the mind of God - so we can't see what the Lord is doing in anyone's heart but our own.
But you do have many promises that God will reveal to you what He is doing in your own life when you seek after Him with your whole heart.
Psalm 25:9 "The meek will he guide in judgement: and the meek will he teach his way."
Psalm 25:14 "The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will show them his covenant."
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[QUOTE]
(snip)
...Next week I'm going back to get that one [Bible].
[REPLY]
That is great. You put a lot of thought into the one you will purschase (I snipped that part for space)and that is good.
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[QUOTE]
{{{So, yeah, I'll try the prayer experiment.}}}
[REPLY]
And I have a number of folks here in FL praying for you, and NaFa too!
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[QUOTE]
I am not a Christian, but if I were I would hope to have your demeanor. You are always helpful and easy to talk with and you go out of your way to provide information. Thanks!!
[REPLY]
Thank you - I always ask the Lord to help anything I write to be a reflection of what He is - I often fail (just ask my children!), but as are we all - I am a work in progress.
Having said that, while the Word that God speaks to us (through his word) is always spoken in the deepest kind of love - it isn't always comfortable - truth rarely is. And for a Christain to give forth that word can be very uncomfortable for both the speaker and the listener.
You have taken up the battles of many others - but not yet really dealt with the battle raging within your own self. How do I know that? Because of the words you speak - they are a reflection of your heart and it is still very wounded. Only God can heal such a mortal wound. And that is where my prayer for you begins.
Blessings (and praying for you)
Patti
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