"The difference between the Bible and an instruction book is the myriad of untestable (and detestable) claims the Bible makes. How do you know that if I 'sin' I will go to Hell? Only from the Bible, which is a source of such dubious credibility as to be laughable. Can you prove to me that ANY of what the Bible claims about Hell and 'sin' is true? Can you prove to me that Hell exists? If not, you, along with all your pulpit-pounding ilk, are nothing more than a carnival ride of empty threats." Temple
Hell is no empty threat. If I believed it was, I wouldn’t bother warning you. However, the way for anyone who doesn't like the thought is to say that you don’t believe in God. That cuts the problem off for you at the Source. All you have to do is ignore your God-given common sense. He doesn’t exist because you don’t believe in Him. You could carry this further if you didn’t like gravity, history, the wind or love. Those things can’t be seen, and therefore wouldn’t exist if you didn’t believe in them either. Anything that you don’t like will not exist if you just say that you don’t believe in it.
The key to being a committed atheist is to be totally unreasonable. When someone denies the obvious, you can’t reason with them. That’s why you can be presented with the absolute and clear evidence of creation (which screams of a Creator to any reasonable person), and you can say that there’s no evidence for God.
If you were reasonable, I would say that we know that Hell exists because we know intuitively that God is good. And if He is good, He must by nature punish a man who has tied up and raped three teenage girls, and then one by one, strangled them to death. In this case, justice delayed is not justice denied. God will bring that murderer to judgment and see that he gets exactly what he deserves, and Hell is the place of God’s justice. It’s His prison. Common sense tells that if God is good, it is right that He is also just. However, God is so good He will also punish thieves, liars, fornicators, adulterers, blasphemers, and everyone who has violated His perfect and holy Law. That leaves us all in big trouble. Without a Savior we will get exactly what we deserve, and that is a
Wednesday, August 20, 2008
The "empty" threat of Hell
113 comments:
Ray said:
The key to being a committed atheist is to be totally unreasonable. When someone denies the obvious, you can’t reason with them. That’s why you can be presented with the absolute and clear evidence of creation (which screams of a Creator to any reasonable person), and you can say that there’s no evidence for God.
Ding Ding Ding - Johnny I think we have a winner.
This is the most logical comment I have seen here.
...so your answer to the question of whether extra-biblical proof of Hell exists is "no" then? I mean yeah, sure, we're all insensible fools because we need it in the first place, but that's as may be, because the thing is that, outside of your brilliant mind and your wonderful book, nothing else in the universe corroberates your story. Just making sure.
Know what I love? How God's mercy will save God's creation from God's wrath for breaking God's law, which was only God's will in the first place. Maybe, just spitballing, but maybe Man isn't the problem here.
Ray said:"He doesn’t exist because you don’t believe in Him. You could carry this further if you didn’t like gravity, history, the wind or love. Those things can’t be seen, and therefore wouldn’t exist if you didn’t believe in them either."
Hogwash! ALl of the above are testable and verifiable. You can't 'see' gravity but celestial mechanics for example demostrates unambiguously the reality of gravity. The wind likewise can be measured using meteorolgical instruments or, in a pinch, seen by observing the motionof smoke or clouds or trees for that matter. Historical events can be verified and coroborated for example through the comparison of contempraneous written accounts of specific events. The emotion of love is easily 'seen' when one looks at the specific brain regions that become active in one under its influence. THese brain regions 'light up' in a reproducible and unambiguous way using a variety of scanning techniques.
God, on the other hand, has no credible evidence to support His existence.
Ray said:"The key to being a committed atheist is to be totally unreasonable."
How is it unreasonable to ask for evidence of extraordinary claims. The worst you can say is that atheists are incredulous, and that's ot in any way 'unreasonable'.
Ray said:"That’s why you can be presented with the absolute and clear evidence of creation (which screams of a Creator to any reasonable person), and you can say that there’s no evidence for God."
Please present said 'clear evidence'. I haven't seen any yet. Give me one shred and I will reconsider my opinion.
Ray said:"If you were reasonable, I would say that we know that Hell exists because we know intuitively that God is good."
I have no such intuition. YOu should speak on your own behalf and not assume that I have the same fuzzy feelings as do you.
You are unable to substantiate any of your beliefs and offer instead your 'intuition', and of course the archaic, oft translated and r-translated, wildly ambiguous Bible. Why, Ray, is your intuition correct but that of say a Muslim or a Wiccan or even an atheist wrong?
Once again, Ray just doesn't get it, and rather than use actual statements that actual atheists make on a subject, he decides to just make up what he imagines atheists are thinking, because it's much easier for him to talk to himself than have an actual 2-way conversation.
In Ray's Bizarro-world, atheists couldn't possibly make their decisions based on logic and rational thinking, because if they did, they would have to agree with Ray on everything, because Ray is allegedly a logical, rational-thinking person.
Yeah, in a pig's eye.
Ray thinks that atheists deny Hell merely because we don't like the idea of it. Of course, he gets this notion not from reading what atheists have to say for themselves, but from what other dogmatic Christians have said about atheists.
No Ray, We don't simply deny Hell because we just don't like the thought of all that eternal torment going on. We deny it because nobody can offer any rational, logical proof that such a thing is real.
Yeah, I know it's hard for you to conceive of people who don't accept the Bible as 100% God's only truth, but we don't. We actually have read it, were not impressed with it, and have a standard of proof that is more sophisticated and accurate than yours. I mean -- I don't believe whatever is in an ancient book just because it's ancient, and just because a bunch of people are obsessively compulsive about promoting it.
Now I know it's hard for you to conceive that people can read the Bible, and NOT be immediately compelled to drop to their knees and start asking God to please not burn or kill them, but well, we exist.
It's must be terribly, terribly difficult for you to conceive that there are people who don't accept what you claim is "obvious" to you. Well, not everyone sees what you do the same way.
You cannot conceive that your are irrational.
You cannot conceive that you are illogical.
You cannot conceive that you are not very intelligent.
These flaws in you will continue to make you a sort of laughing stock, and continue to hinder the prospect of convincing anyone other than people who are already beleivers.
It's not hard at all, by the way, for me to conceive of the opposites of theses things -- that there are people who can read the Bible and come away from it totally believing it, and being totally obsessed with pushing it on everyone else -- Gullible, obsessive-compulsive, feeble-minded people have been a historical reality, as they are today.
Ray,
I think you broke my brain.
TEMPLE
Ray said:
//Hell is no empty threat. If I believed it was, I wouldn’t bother warning you.//
Sure you would. You've discovered that there's *money* to be made in "warning" people. In fact - if you discovered that hell DIDN'T exist - I doubt that you'd call it to anyone's attention.
Your bread, after all - is buttered on the Table of the Tabernacle.
Ray said:
//You could carry this further if you didn’t like gravity, history, the wind or love. Those things can’t be seen, and therefore wouldn’t exist if you didn’t believe in them either.//
No... not even close. There's clear and present EVIDENCE for all of those things. TESTABLE, FALSIFIABLE EVIDENCE. Could you possibly BE more dense?
Ray said:
//That’s why you can be presented with the absolute and clear evidence of creation (which screams of a Creator to any reasonable person), and you can say that there’s no evidence for God.//
Then you simply don't understand the definition of "evidence". And for the record, "reasonable" does not mean "folks willing to swallow my tripe".
If you have evidence for your claims - then PRESENT THEM! All I've seen out of you, is the "Banana Fiasco" - which ironically was EVIDENCE FOR EVOLUTION! (Mutations of the DNA of the Plantain, giving beneficial changes to the SKIN and FRUIT of the plant)
You babble on, and on about this "hell" and its obvious existence, but present NOTHING, other than your NEED for it to be so.
Here's a trick - Evidence of HELL would be:
An accurate description of Hell, its contents and purpose - presented by someone (due to Divine Revelation), who was NOT familiar with the Bible.
Got any of that?
And if not - WHY NOT?
-ACE
Ray, Again you are only prove that you have no clue what you're talking about and what can be considered evidence.
Wind, Gravity, and Magnetism can be verified through experiments. We may not be able to see them but confirm their existence through the effect they have on material Objects. Love (thought a bit more gray) on the other hand can be measures and verified through the effect it has on the person (through words and actions) possessing this emotion. Hell and God on the other hand cannot be verified at all.
You go on to say,"The key to being a committed atheist is to be totally unreasonable. When someone denies the obvious, you can’t reason with them. That’s why you can be presented with the absolute and clear evidence of creation (which screams of a Creator to any reasonable person), and you can say that there’s no evidence for God."
It may seem obvious to you but that does not mean it is obvious or clear evidence to a reasonable person. I've explained this many time before to you but you're aren't paying attention, so listen closely this time!
Flat earth, the sun orbiting the earth, earth being the center of the universe are a few of the things that most people though were obvious thus must be an undeniable fact. Due to example like these and many others, the one thing we've learned about the world and universe is many ideas in science do not make sense. They even appear to be in opposition to what an educated guess would suggest is correct.
The correct answers are often counter intuitive Ray. You cannot base a conclusion on the idea that it seems self-evident, you need to find a way to falsify and test your conclusion outside of your assumptions.
Since you love bible quotes, Maybe a good quote will help to burn it into you head.
"The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true. We have a method, and that method helps us to reach not absolute truth, only asymptotic approaches to the truth — never there, just closer and closer, always finding vast new oceans of undiscovered possibilities. Cleverly designed experiments are the key."
- Carl Sagan
As I read the rest of your post I see you continue to make the same mistake.
"we know that Hell exists because we know intuitively that God is good."
" He doesn’t exist because you don’t believe in Him."
You still haven't showed evidence for the existence of God, that is why we don't believe in him. If you can produce evidence to support your claim of a super being and that said being is good, then we will reevaluate your claims.
Ray, if everyone used your flawed logic and intuition /assumption based learning methods, our understanding of the world would come to a screaming halt. This is why part of a higher education that involves research, teaches you not to make such a foolish mistake. You must have missed that class, or did you not go to college?!
I suggest you read a book called,'How to Think About Weird Things: Critical Thinking for a New Age' by Theodore Schick & Lewis Vaughn. This book has been used for college courses to teach you a sound method for evaluating of any claim.
Ray, you failed once again!
Word is Bond!
~Atomic Chimp
(Ray Comfort wrote)...
"Hell is no empty threat. If I believed it was, I wouldn’t bother warning you. However, the way for anyone who doesn't like the thought is to say that you don’t believe in God. That cuts the problem off for you at the Source. All you have to do is ignore your God-given common sense. He doesn’t exist because you don’t believe in Him..."
Well Ray, I do believe in God and I also do not believe in the conventional post-medieval, Faustian concept of "Hell". For that matter, for most of history the vast majority of Jews had no concept of eternal punishment, and those ideas that some Jewish sects adopted from Greco-Roman writings concerning "afterlife" were eventually rejected by most segments of Judaism.
I do believe you when you say that you sincerely believe that Hell is no empty threat, but this is hardly compelling evidence for the rest of us who doubt that there is such a place. "Common sense" most certainly does not point to the existence of Hell, especially not as a never ending torture chamber for those humans who have failed to live up in every way to an impossible standard of "goodness." The very idea that eternal destiny is determined by one's acceptance or rejection of an idea is akin to eternal punishment for overcooking a turkey. "Common sense" dictates that your idea of Hell is a caricature: one that most certainly does not measure up to any sane standard of justice period.
"...You could carry this further if you didn’t like gravity, history, the wind or love. Those things can’t be seen, and therefore wouldn’t exist if you didn’t believe in them either. Anything that you don’t like will not exist if you just say that you don’t believe in it."
You are so wrong. equating the very obscure concepts of Hell with well established scientific theories and principles is not worthy of any sort of response.
"...The key to being a committed atheist is to be totally unreasonable. When someone denies the obvious, you can’t reason with them. That’s why you can be presented with the absolute and clear evidence of creation (which screams of a Creator to any reasonable person), and you can say that there’s no evidence for God."
And the key to being a committed evangelical fundamentalist biblicist is to be hyper-rational about matters of faith. When someone denies the very rigid, "plain" interpretation of Scripture conditioned by post-enlightenment criteria, you can’t reason with them. That’s why you can be presented with the absolute and clear evidence of evolution (which screams accuracy at virtually every testable level from taxonomy, to anatomy, to bio-chemical composition, to genetics to any reasonable person), and you can say that there’s no proof because it does not jive with your primitive and nonsensical interpretation of the Bible.
"...If you were reasonable, I would say that we know that Hell exists because we know intuitively that God is good."
What a mind-numbingly ridiculous assertion. In the first place, you cannot begin to presume what every person on earth "intuitively" knows. You can assume such because of what you have experienced, but your experience of life is guaranteed to be different from virtually millions upon billions of other peoples on earth and throughout history. Second, the infathomable, over-the-top unreasonableness of your concept of "Hell" indicates only that your idea of "good" can only be comprehended in terms of its opposite. God does not require evil in order to remain good anymore than I require the presence of females to remain male.
"...And if He is good, He must by nature punish a man who has tied up and raped three teenage girls, and then one by one, strangled them to death. In this case, justice delayed is not justice denied. God will bring that murderer to judgment and see that he gets exactly what he deserves, and Hell is the place of God’s justice."
He must? So now you are putting constraints upon Almighty, inscrutable God on how he ought behave? In your own very finite experience and understanding YOU ASSUME that Hell is the only possible measure of cosmic justice. I'm willing to bet that God is immeasurably more merciful and not nearly as petty and rigidly absolute in his dispensation of justice. now I'm no God, but having been created in his image and with a pretty good sense of how he cares for his Creation, I can only think that he wants only the best for EVERY square inch of his Creation: the rapist, murderer and genocidal maniac included.
"...Common sense tells that if God is good, it is right that He is also just. However, God is so good He will also punish thieves, liars, fornicators, adulterers, blasphemers, and everyone who has violated His perfect and holy Law. That leaves us all in big trouble."
But "common sense does not tell us that God's justice can only be expressed in an impossibly severe punitive manner. Perhaps the very idea that evil must be "punished" is a primitive and finite concept that God is above? Perhaps the biblical writers could only express the goodness of God in their own finite experience of a dualistic Greco-Roman and Jewish culture? Perhaps they were as clueless as we are concerning how exactly "God's justice" will be meted out?
Your God is too small, Ray.
Ray, I'm going to ignore your atheist-baiting and address another comment in your post:
"He must by nature punish a man who has tied up and raped three teenage girls, and then one by one, strangled them to death"
And yet, don't you believe that if this person sincerely repents and accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior that he'll spend eternity in heaven?
Your assertion implies a divine justice system based on actions - yet you accept that a loophole which rewards belief over action is an example of perfect justice.
The mental gymnastics required to accept such a system as "just" is only trumped by the fact that you can freely condemn the man in your quote for his rape and murder, yet you consider a being who would sanction infinite torture for such horrible, finite "sins" as "doubt", to be the ultimate in perfect justice. This is, of course trumped by the "perfect justice" that punishes the rapist and the doubter equally...
Posts like this kind of make you pine for ol' Ed Gordon, don't they ACE?
Ray,
Any reasonable person can look at a Bible and see it screams of being written by ancients retelling folk tales that try to explain the world around them.
Didn't Jesus die for your triple rapist, triple murderer too. Repent and trust, bad man, and your in.
Heck, forget theology, I'll believe in Hell if somebody can provide a location coordinate. Anybody?
"Go left from Middle Earth then past Narnia. If you see the sign for Heaven you have gone too far"
@rex mundane:
You are right when you place everything in will of God. There is nothing that exists in this world that God isn't in control over, or isn't aware of.
@lonomoholo:
(I'm still praying for you) I've heard someone say that the existence of all things could have logically occurred one of four ways;
It's self existing.
It's self created.
It's an illusion.
It's created.
@ace:
If you don't turn to Jesus in repentance, you'll get all the evidence you want.
Great Post Ray!
Silly Atheists are their silly ideals. Who needs evidence when you have FAITH!
Plus the evidence is clear! A creation requires a Creator!
Checkmate, Atheists!
Thanks to this blog, i'm no longer an Atheist.
In fact, last night I prayed to Jesus to show me a sign of His glorious existence, and this morning in my cereal bowl, my cheerios moved into the form of the Cross! It was a miracle. I'm telling all my Ahh theist friends about this blog so they can get a fresh sip of cool Truth!
In His Glorious Love,
BNC
I find it difficult to believe that anyone can be this obtuse. Ray you remind me of shockrockers such as Lou Reed or Marilyn Manson. By saying or doing completely irrational/shocking things, you simply draw attention to yourself.
Is that what this is all about ego-stroking, or attention grabbing to sell more of your product?
Ray,
Claiming that there is evidence of creation is not evidence of creation.
Cheers.
If you were reasonable, I would say that we know that Hell exists because we know intuitively that God is good. And if He is good, He must by nature punish a man who has tied up and raped three teenage girls, and then one by one, strangled them to death.
Unless, of course, said rapist and murderer is a Christian, in which case your strangler rapist gets a free pass to eternal paradise.
This is what you consider good?
I can see how IF we assume that this universe has a god(<-improper noun)in it somewhere and IF that god is into corporal punishment, there might be a need for some kind of Hell.
However, no part of that intimates that this punishment will take the form of a heated subterranean torture chamber manned by imps armed with hayforks.
If you make the above assumptions you can demonstrate maybe a vague need for some form of punishment, but Hell is nowhere apparent in that philosophy.
Also of note: God wouldn't need to be good in order to need his own torture chamber, he could also be an evil god (<- improper noun), or cruel, or just really enjoy barbeque.
Ray: "All you have to do is ignore your God-given common sense. He doesn’t exist because you don’t believe in Him. You could carry this further if you didn’t like gravity, history, the wind or love."
Or evolution!!! :)
matt: "Posts like this kind of make you pine for ol' Ed Gordon, don't they ACE?"
No. No, they don't. ;)
You want EVIDENCE? How about THIS?
"To Hell and Back" is a documentary film here: http://www.tbn.org/index.php/8/1.html
This documentary film is hosted by a Medical Doctor who happens to be a former atheist: he has been convinced of hell's reality. Listen to him ... before it's too late.
@ Ray Comfort
Was there a technical hitch or did you really delete my first post comparing Comfort style theology to the BDSM sub-culture?
Just to inform those not keeping count:
This is the 16th post this month where Ray either mentions, or alludes to, the existence of evidence for creation or against evolution.
Incidentally, it's also the 16th post this month where no such evidence has been produced.
1 There is no want of power in God to cast wicked men into hell at any moment. Men's hands cannot be strong when God rises up. The strongest have no power to resist him, nor can any deliver out of his hands. -- He is not only able to cast wicked men into hell, but he can most easily do it. Sometimes an earthly prince meets with a great deal of difficulty to subdue a rebel, who has found means to fortify himself, and has made himself strong by the numbers of his followers. But it is not so with God. There is no fortress that is any defence from the power of God. Though hand join in hand, and vast multitudes of God's enemies combine and associate themselves, they are easily broken in pieces. They are as great heaps of light chaff before the whirlwind; or large quantities of dry stubble before devouring flames. We find it easy to tread on and crush a worm that we see crawling on the earth; so it is easy for us to cut or singe a slender thread that any thing hangs by: thus easy is it for God, when he pleases, to cast his enemies down to hell. What are we, that we should think to stand before him, at whose rebuke the earth trembles, and before whom the rocks are thrown down?
2 They deserve to be cast into hell; so that divine justice never stands in the way, it makes no objection against God's using his power at any moment to destroy them. Yea, on the contrary, justice calls aloud for an infinite punishment of their sins. Divine justice says of the tree that brings forth such grapes of Sodom, "Cut it down, why cumbereth it the ground?" Luke 13:7. The sword of divine justice is every moment brandished over their heads, and it is nothing but the hand of arbitrary mercy, and God's mere will, that holds it back.
3 They are already under a sentence of condemnation to hell. They do not only justly deserve to be cast down thither, but the sentence of the law of God, that eternal and immutable rule of righteousness that God has fixed between him and mankind, is gone out against them, and stands against them; so that they are bound over already to hell. John 3:18. "He that believeth not is condemned already." So that every unconverted man properly belongs to hell; that is his place; from thence he is, John 8:23. "Ye are from beneath:" And thither he is bound; it is the place that justice, and God's word, and the sentence of his unchangeable law assign to him.
4 They are now the objects of that very same anger and wrath of God, that is expressed in the torments of hell. And the reason why they do not go down to hell at each moment, is not because God, in whose power they are, is not then very angry with them; as he is with many miserable creatures now tormented in hell, who there feel and bear the fierceness of his wrath. Yea, God is a great deal more angry with great numbers that are now on earth: yea, doubtless, with many that are now in this congregation, who it may be are at ease, than he is with many of those who are now in the flames of hell.
So that it is not because God is unmindful of their wickedness, and does not resent it, that he does not let loose his hand and cut them off. God is not altogether such an one as themselves, though they may imagine him to be so. The wrath of God burns against them, their damnation does not slumber; the pit is prepared, the fire is made ready, the furnace is now hot, ready to receive them; the flames do now rage and glow. The glittering sword is whet, and held over them, and the pit hath opened its mouth under them.
5 The devil stands ready to fall upon them, and seize them as his own, at what moment God shall permit him. They belong to him; he has their souls in his possession, and under his dominion. The scripture represents them as his goods, Luke 11:12. The devils watch them; they are ever by them at their right hand; they stand waiting for them, like greedy hungry lions that see their prey, and expect to have it, but are for the present kept back. If God should withdraw his hand, by which they are restrained, they would in one moment fly upon their poor souls. The old serpent is gaping for them; hell opens its mouth wide to receive them; and if God should permit it, they would be hastily swallowed up and lost.
6 There are in the souls of wicked men those hellish principles reigning, that would presently kindle and flame out into hell fire, if it were not for God's restraints. There is laid in the very nature of carnal men, a foundation for the torments of hell. There are those corrupt principles, in reigning power in them, and in full possession of them, that are seeds of hell fire. These principles are active and powerful, exceeding violent in their nature, and if it were not for the restraining hand of God upon them, they would soon break out, they would flame out after the same manner as the same corruptions, the same enmity does in the hearts of damned souls, and would beget the same torments as they do in them. The souls of the wicked are in scripture compared to the troubled sea, Isa. 57:20. For the present, God restrains their wickedness by his mighty power, as he does the raging waves of the troubled sea, saying, "Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further;" but if God should withdraw that restraining power, it would soon carry all before it. Sin is the ruin and misery of the soul; it is destructive in its nature; and if God should leave it without restraint, there would need nothing else to make the soul perfectly miserable. The corruption of the heart of man is immoderate and boundless in its fury; and while wicked men live here, it is like fire pent up by God's restraints, whereas if it were let loose, it would set on fire the course of nature; and as the heart is now a sink of sin, so if sin was not restrained, it would immediately turn the soul into fiery oven, or a furnace of fire and brimstone.
7 It is no security to wicked men for one moment, that there are no visible means of death at hand. It is no security to a natural man, that he is now in health, and that he does not see which way he should now immediately go out of the world by any accident, and that there is no visible danger in any respect in his circumstances. The manifold and continual experience of the world in all ages, shows this is no evidence, that a man is not on the very brink of eternity, and that the next step will not be into another world. The unseen, unthought-of ways and means of persons going suddenly out of the world are innumerable and inconceivable. Unconverted men walk over the pit of hell on a rotten covering, and there are innumerable places in this covering so weak that they will not bear their weight, and these places are not seen. The arrows of death fly unseen at noon-day; the sharpest sight cannot discern them. God has so many different unsearchable ways of taking wicked men out of the world and sending them to hell, that there is nothing to make it appear, that God had need to be at the expense of a miracle, or go out of the ordinary course of his providence, to destroy any wicked man, at any moment. All the means that there are of sinners going out of the world, are so in God's hands, and so universally and absolutely subject to his power and determination, that it does not depend at all the less on the mere will of God, whether sinners shall at any moment go to hell, than if means were never made use of, or at all concerned in the case.
8 Natural men's prudence and care to preserve their own lives, or the care of others to preserve them, do not secure them a moment. To this, divine providence and universal experience do also bear testimony. There is this clear evidence that men's own wisdom is no security to them from death; that if it were otherwise we should see some difference between the wise and politic men of the world, and others, with regard to their liableness to early and unexpected death: but how is it in fact? Eccles. 2:16. "How dieth the wise man? even as the fool."
9 All wicked men's pains and contrivance which they use to escape hell, while they continue to reject Christ, and so remain wicked men, do not secure them from hell one moment. Almost every natural man that hears of hell, flatters himself that he shall escape it; he depends upon himself for his own security; he flatters himself in what he has done, in what he is now doing, or what he intends to do. Every one lays out matters in his own mind how he shall avoid damnation, and flatters himself that he contrives well for himself, and that his schemes will not fail. They hear indeed that there are but few saved, and that the greater part of men that have died heretofore are gone to hell; but each one imagines that he lays out matters better for his own escape than others have done. He does not intend to come to that place of torment; he says within himself, that he intends to take effectual care, and to order matters so for himself as not to fail.
But the foolish children of men miserably delude themselves in their own schemes, and in confidence in their own strength and wisdom; they trust to nothing but a shadow. The greater part of those who heretofore have lived under the same means of grace, and are now dead, are undoubtedly gone to hell; and it was not because they were not as wise as those who are now alive: it was not because they did not lay out matters as well for themselves to secure their own escape. If we could speak with them, and inquire of them, one by one, whether they expected, when alive, and when they used to hear about hell, ever to be the subjects of misery: we doubtless, should hear one and another reply, "No, I never intended to come here: I had laid out matters otherwise in my mind; I thought I should contrive well for myself -- I thought my scheme good. I intended to take effectual care; but it came upon me unexpected; I did not look for it at that time, and in that manner; it came as a thief -- Death outwitted me: God's wrath was too quick for me. Oh, my cursed foolishness! I was flattering myself, and pleasing myself with vain dreams of what I would do hereafter; and when I was saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction came upon me."
10 God has laid himself under no obligation, by any promise to keep any natural man out of hell one moment. God certainly has made no promises either of eternal life, or of any deliverance or preservation from eternal death, but what are contained in the covenant of grace, the promises that are given in Christ, in whom all the promises are yea and amen. But surely they have no interest in the promises of the covenant of grace who are not the children of the covenant, who do not believe in any of the promises, and have no interest in the Mediator of the covenant.
From Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God Jonathan Edwards.
Alex and other Atheists,
Its obvious you don't believe Ray because you are blinded by your hatred for Jesus. You want to continue to lie and fornicate with no repercussions!
Well, guess what? Hell is real! The perfect Word of God and his infinitely Just Law provides a way for you to avoid this!
Stop hating Jesus and love the Lord your God. Soon, He will manifest Himself to you and you will be saved!
Also, stop saying you can't hate something you don't believe exist because He exists whether you think He does or not. Stop hatin'!
Darwin never said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light."
That was Jesus!
In Glorious Love of the One Most Holy, who is RISEN,
BNC
And if He is good, He must by nature punish a man who has tied up and raped three teenage girls, and then one by one, strangled them to death. In this case, justice delayed is not justice denied. God will bring that murderer to judgment and see that he gets exactly what he deserves, and Hell is the place of God’s justice.
Hang on a minute. According to Comfort-style theology - if I'm understanding it - if the triple murderer/rapist is a Christian (the correct version, of course) then there is no judgment and retribution.
Of course, the next line of the script is "Jesus paid the price". But Jesus only experienced capital punishment once. So, on one side of Lady Justice's scales we have one execution and on the other the crimes of potentially millions. Doesn't seem like much of justice system.
So in our cosmic court case we have the Judge saying to the three murdered girls (who appear as ghostly apparitions) "I commute the sentence against the man who did terrible things because he worships me the correct way. He will serve no punishment because I once executed my own child for no crime."
I have a question for all the fair minded atheists..
I'm new to this; never really argue that much. But I read your posts and wonder... do you feel powerful enough to demand an audience with God? I don't feel confident to demand an audience with our president much less the King of the universe.
It seems that you expect Him to bow down to your terms. Prove to me that you exist You yell!
But looking into the burning cauldren which lights our day - which was flung into existence by His pinkie.. how far do suppose your squeaky little voice carries?
God word says "without faith it is impossible to please God" He just thought you might want to know...
if you discard this tidbid of information which the martyrs have preserved with their lifes blood so that you could know it.. well then so be it.
You want to know God personally - like Moses. Well, once that meeting occurs you will be in the relm of experience. (like your verifiable wind, gravity observations)
Gods terms: Start with faith, then as you progress on MY terms, I will give you verifiable experience.
Are you willing to start?
His terms are clear - ask Ray he could delineate them for you.
You need to humble yourself in God's eyes and realize how insignicant you are then you will be in a place to move forward.
Vince
COOOOMFORRRTT!!
One of your trolls has wandered over to our blog again. You left the gate open and somebody named "brand new christian" wandered over to Raytractors.
Would you please keep your nuts on your side of the street? Please??
I'll turn on the sprinklers. I mean it.
Thanks--
the Captain
excusssssse me brand new christian.
you saw what happen in your cereal bowl? (rubbing my eyes cuz i can't believe what i just read)
are you for real? or are you trying to act like a donkey?
Ray, I am curious about something. I'll try to put this tactfully, but I realise I'm encroaching on as sensitive subject and it may come out all wrong.
You claim to have provided evidence, and you also claim that the atheists you have contact with are unable to accept this evidence. This is fine: the atheists claim the same thing about you. But you also claim that we need to accept some things on faith and trust (in God): which is the exact opposite of evidence. What I would like to know, is where you draw the line. What things should we accept based on evidence, versus what should we accept based on faith?
Many people are not only reluctant to take things on faith, with no evidence, but absolutely incapable of it. I am an example: I'll change any opinion of mine in a second given evidence, but cannot accept anything without it. I can't be scared or bribed into belief (hell and heaven, respectively), and I can't take your words on faith: I need evidence.
I doubt anyone will contend that belief in God doesn't require a certain amount of faith: but that means that according to your belief myself, and so many others, are doomed to eternal torture not by personal choise but by a mental "defect" which renders us incapable of faith. Is this right?
Assuming that acceptance of God doesn't require faith, we are still doomed: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. An omnipotent creator is undoubtedly an extraordinary claim: but the evidence, when viewed without a bible to refer to, tells a different story: one of eons of unguided development.
How then can a person such as myself (or the other atheists posting on your blog), who is biologically incapable of faith, and is already aware of the substantial evidence which doesn't match and even seems to contradict a plain reading of the Bible, be saved?
Thanks,
Qu.
Vince,
It sounds like you are asking me to believe in God first and then I will see evidence for Him. This goes against how we find what is true and science itself. In the scientific method one starts off with a guess or is unsure of something, then they gather evidence, and then they go where the evidence leads. One does not say "this is truth" and then goes looking for evidence in support of that "truth". Science does not work this way so bias can be avoided in research.
Treego said...
You want EVIDENCE? How about THIS?
"To Hell and Back" is a documentary film here:
How did you get that link past Ray? Anyhow, there is no such film at the link.
This documentary film is hosted by a Medical Doctor who happens to be a former atheist: he has been convinced of hell's reality. Listen to him ... before it's too late.
Since we can't see said film, it is a bit hard to judge if they fellow actually presented any evidence.
But was the evidence some type of NDE type thing? Here's a question: how can a dead brain record memories of post-death events? It obviously can't so therefor we are dealing with a live experience which blows the whole "experience after death" idea out of the water.
It's amazing how many athiests respond here. It's intresting to hear their thoughts. What a great sight!
Rene Descartes -
"I am thinking, therefore I exist."
PASS
Ray Comfort -
"I believe in Hell, therefore it exists."
FAIL
The skeptical sorcerer said:
One does not say "this is truth" and then goes looking for evidence in support of that "truth".
Is anyone else here thinking this is exactly what evolutionist scientist do?
Vince said...
do you feel powerful enough to demand an audience with God? I don't feel confident to demand an audience with our president much less the King of the universe.
Why not? If I really wanted to talk to the President of the USA I'd do it.
What I think we have here is a slave-master mentality. Some people instinctively feel secure in a highly controlled submissive situation. "I'm not worthy, oh Lord. I deserve punishment"
It seems that you expect Him to bow down to your terms. Prove to me that you exist You yell!
God is claimed to be an ominipotent, omnipresent (and a few other omni's) being so spending a few moments to answer some silly questions would be no effort - especially if this being loves everybody so much.
Gods terms: Start with faith, then as you progress on MY terms, I will give you verifiable experience.
But that is the exact same formula for the Placebo Effect. It also leads to Observer Bias.
You need to humble yourself in God's eyes and realize how insignicant you are then you will be in a place to move forward.
There's that submissive mentality again
@ Brand New Christian ( AKA atheist Troll )
Sorry, we don't buy your testimony and you are just looking 'foolish'.
Which one are you? Rufus? Howdy? Wee? ... one of the Ray Distractors?
doesn't matter. Get a life, get 'right', before you die and go to Hell. Yes, you will go there.
Have a Nice Day Atheist! Praying for your confession!! Ciao!
Quasar said...
{{{...How then can a person such as myself (or the other atheists posting on your blog), who is biologically incapable of faith, and is already aware of the substantial evidence which doesn't match and even seems to contradict a plain reading of the Bible, be saved?}}}
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[REPLY]
You ask a really, really, good question. You are dead in sin, so you are correct, you can't have faith. But God did promise if you seek Him, He will reveal Himself to you.
To do that:
*come as a child
*come humbly
*ask for God to reveal Himself to you.
*begin reading your Bible - looking for God in the pages
*listen to your conscience - that is where God will speak to you
*be willing to act when He does give you faith
*every person I know that has truly accepted Jesus remembers that moment of conviction (they may react to it differently, but it is clear and loud.)
*be aware the timing is not under your control - it could be right now - it might be years from now.
Blessings,
Patti
BrianB. said...
The skeptical sorcerer said:
One does not say "this is truth" and then goes looking for evidence in support of that "truth".
Is anyone else here thinking this is exactly what evolutionist scientist do?
My two cents? No.
The key to being a committed atheist is to be totally unreasonable. When someone denies the obvious, you can’t reason with them. That’s why you can be presented with the absolute and clear evidence of creation (which screams of a Creator to any reasonable person), and you can say that there’s no evidence for God.
That's all well and good but doesn't address the question of Hell. Even if I accept there was some sort of being, natural or supernatural, that created everything, that still does not make the Hell story true.
If I tell you I can spell "antepenultimate" and I am also a transformed unicorn then would you believe, since I can spell "antepenultimate" that must also be a transformed unicorn?
See the problem?
As for not "seeing" gravity, that changes the question too. No one's asking you to show us Hell. All we ask for is evidence it exists. WE know gravity exists because we witness gravity all the time. We can predict it and test it to the point where not believing it would be unreasonable. I would be like refusing to believe evolution because chickens don't hatch puppies. Unreasonable.
So, other than a story, what evidence is there Hell exists?
[silentsanta, NZ]
keywesthaven1@msn.com (Terry) said...
@ Brand New Christian ( AKA atheist Troll )
Sorry, we don't buy your testimony and you are just looking 'foolish'.
Worried about being upstaged, Terry?
Sorry, we don't buy your testimony and you are just looking 'foolish'.
Can you please substantiate your previous assertion that Charles Darwin was "high" on "hash" during his voyage on the HMS Beagle?
Is anyone else here thinking this is exactly what evolutionist scientist do?
No. Can you provide evidence that such is the case?
Jesus will save everyone. read John 12:47 "And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."
You will be given new hearts on our new planet that Jesus will take us to.
"If you were reasonable, I would say that we know that Hell exists because we know intuitively that God is good."
No, you would say that because of the theology you happened to have developed after becoming a Christian.
A reasonable person might wonder how a God who condemns selfishness would turn around and create feeling, thinking beings simply for his own pleasure - knowing full well the vast majority of them would writhe in agony for all eternity - could possibly be called good.
brianb said...
"The skeptical sorcerer said:
One does not say "this is truth" and then goes looking for evidence in support of that "truth".
Is anyone else here thinking this is exactly what evolutionist scientist do?"
When one says "this is true" I meant saying it in lack of any evidence. First you must gain evidence and develop a theory. You can't start off assuming your hypothesis is true. Evolution scientist follow the scientific method just like any other discipline of science.
He must by nature punish a man who has tied up and raped three teenage girls, and then one by one, strangled them to death. In this case, justice delayed is not justice denied.
Why delay it? Given God's alleged omnipotence, we must assume He could prevent such a tragedy, if He cared. So why let this man gain years of pleasure from his despicable acts and then promise him that he will share the same fate as people who don't revere your God? And he won't even get that punishment so long as he repents his sin before his death.
If God exists, he could put an end to misery today. He could prevent the floods that insurance companies and your bible claim he is responsible for. He could prevent crime, not just punish it years later but actually prevent it now. He could stabilise life as we know it. Today. If He exists.
This is the sort of evidence that might convince rational people of your God's existence. But you prefer to tell us He works in mysterious ways. "Mysterious" hardly seems applicable when you've just described the rape, torture and murder of three innocent girls. I'd say he works in despicable and contemptible ways.
Of course, none of the above quote shows evidence for Hell, just your need to believe there must be Hell, presumably because you can't conceive of your God allowing such a heinous crime to go unpunished. But He does. Often. Yet He could prevent it, if He cared.
Carl said
Treego said...
You want EVIDENCE? How about THIS?
"To Hell and Back" is a documentary film here:
How did you get that link past Ray? Anyhow, there is no such film at the link.
This documentary film is hosted by a Medical Doctor who happens to be a former atheist: he has been convinced of hell's reality. Listen to him ... before it's too late.
Since we can't see said film, it is a bit hard to judge if they fellow actually presented any evidence.
I found the film at that link--you just didn't scroll down far enough. Haven't watched it yet though.
You are right when you place everything in will of God. There is nothing that exists in this world that God isn't in control over, or isn't aware of.
So you'd agree the God allowed the rape and murder of the three girls in Ray's story?
I came here as an agnostic a few week's ago but the more I read from the believers here, the more I realise I wouldn't want to spend a day in Heaven with the God you describe.
You didn't answer the question. Whether God exists or whether hell exists are different questions. One can believe in God as creator without believing in hell.
So is there evidence that hell exists other than what is said in the Bible? If you can't give a direct answer then the answer must be no.
Fourkid:
Thanks for answering.
I can do some of your points easily enough: search my conscience, go through the bible again, etc. Others, like "asking God to reveal Himself" require a prior belief in God anyway: something I lack. Even if I did this it would be superficial, and I'd feel stupid talking to myself besides. I doubt the Christian God would respond to that.
However, I can promise this much: I'll do what I can, and if your God does "reveal" Himself in some way, I will accept Him.
Until then, I have no choise in the matter: I cannot believe in Him any more than I can believe in any of the other invisible creatures from history.
@Brand New Christian,
As you explore your new faith, remember once thing: saying so don't make it so, nor does wishing it were so.
Good luck!
Andy said...
So you'd agree the God allowed the rape and murder of the three girls in Ray's story?
I came here as an agnostic a few week's ago but the more I read from the believers here, the more I realise I wouldn't want to spend a day in Heaven with the God you describe.
___
Have you read the Gospels? I certainly didn't become a Christian because of other Christians. I became a Christian because of Christ. Either your life and my life is pointless suffering and death - and rape and murder happen everyday just because the universe evolved it that way - and some criminals will get caught, most will not – but all will die victim and criminal - into eternal nothingness.
OR there is a God who allows evil because He knows something’s about it we don't, and He will use it for His glory in the end. Why do I believe this? Because He already did it through the most wicked event of history - the murder of Jesus Christ. That same infinitely wicked act, (cause by jealous religious men, a traitor, wimpy unbelieving disciples, power driven governments, and all of us because of our sin) God made the crucifixion of Christ also the greatest even in history and for eternity - because it brought salvation for sin and the gift of everlasting life. Please, don't get your main diet of God's reality here - go to the source. Read the Bible with an open mind and humble heart. Pray to God to reveal Himself, and be patient. God is Good.
Enjoy your day,
Keith
@ Matt D.
You said…
”The mental gymnastics required to accept such a system as "just" is only trumped by the fact that you can freely condemn the man in your quote for his rape and murder, yet you consider a being who would sanction infinite torture for such horrible, finite "sins" as "doubt", to be the ultimate in perfect justice. This is, of course trumped by the "perfect justice" that punishes the rapist and the doubter equally...”
---
First, you're wrong about “finite” sins – all sin against God is infinite because of Who He is. Sin isn’t measured in time but in the worthiness of the person offended. God is infinitely Holy, all sin is infinitely wicked, it deserves an infinite punishment. Two options for that punishment; Hell or Jesus Christ (because, as God He could make an infinite payment with Himself). And there are degrees of punishment in hell.
So where do the rapist and victims eternally go according to your worldview? Is that justice?
As an atheist you don't believe in true (or perfect) justice because without God it cannot exist. People get away with crime all the time. And yet you make an argument as if you know that what God does is unjust somehow – How can you know what’s unjust without knowing or believing that true justice is real? Your justice is purely subjective if it’s not an objective part of reality. It’s like a blind man telling a fashion designer that uses too much red in his clothing. He doesn’t even know what red is, although he may have heard of it. Why should anyone listen to his opinion with any serious credibility? You’ve heard of “justice” but that’s only because it really does exist, but it’s not something grounded in ourselves, but in God. Otherwise, your opinion about rape and murder are as equal as everyone else’s in the world, whether the majority agrees or not. So your whole argument against God’s justice is groundless and superfluous.
Blogger imblest said...
I found the film at that link--you just didn't scroll down far enough. Haven't watched it yet though.
Cheers. Found it.
Immediately lost credibility when a supposed doctor said that death occurs when breathing and heart stops. What a load of nonsense.
Then this doctor claims that these near death experiences only occur before brain death. Yes, that is correct, even the supporter of this claim acknowledges the brain isn't dead. There is no explanation why the "soul" leaves the body on this magical journey before the brain is dead.
No explanation of how the brain can remember something which isn't happening on the Earthly plane.
But this lack of brain death proves this is a Earth bound experience. Sometimes when your brain is loosing oxygen you will have bad dreams. And like regular dream states these can include common themes. Big deal.
How can people find this stuff convincing? What a load of woo-woo.
Like a child who has had a bad dream we need to tell these people that the big bad man isn't coming to get you - IT WAS JUST A DREAM.
Ray
Am I correct in my understanding that the rapist in question could avoid eternal torment by accepting Jesus Christ and becomming a 'true christian', whereas, if the raped girls in question had not, and were not, then they would spend eternity in Hell?
Ahhhh! 'perfect justice' in action!!
As I've said before my incredulity at believing in any god, including the Christian God, pales into insignificance against your wish to worship the monster who is the Christian God!
Phil
Ray Comfort said:
If you were reasonable, I would say that we know that Hell exists because we know intuitively that God is good. And if He is good, He must by nature punish a man who has tied up and raped three teenage girls, and then one by one, strangled them to death. In this case, justice delayed is not justice denied. God will bring that murderer to judgment and see that he gets exactly what he deserves, and Hell is the place of God’s justice. It’s His prison. Common sense tells that if God is good, it is right that He is also just. However, God is so good He will also punish thieves, liars, fornicators, adulterers, blasphemers, and everyone who has violated His perfect and holy Law. That leaves us all in big trouble. Without a Savior we will get exactly what we deserve
The above paragraph has been extensively hammered on. But look at it from a slightly different viewpoint: let us suppose that at least one of those teenage girls is not a True Christian (tm). Maybe she's a Catholic, maybe she's just a muddle-thinking "spiritual" person. Anyway, she's done nothing that the average person would think requires terrible punishment. But she has, of course, offended God in various ways (lustful thoughts, using God's name in vain, etc.).
Now, even the most stringent law-and-order enthusiast might have trouble stomaching infinite punishment for our serial killer; his offenses, while ghastly, are finite. The justification for infinite punishment is that he has offended an infinite Being. But of course, so have his victims. His offenses against them are trivial compared to his offense against God (although his victims might beg to point out that God hasn't actually been hurt at all). So it seems that you are arguing that we know intuitively that God is just, and therefore will punish the (conventionally) innocent victims of a murderer just as severely as He punishes the murderer; there's no reason to assume significant differences in suffering in Hell, since the differences in offense to mere humans is nothing compared to the identical offense offered by all humans to God.
I think that most people's intuition would lead them to a completely contrary position. So I further think that intuition cannot stand as the proof you wish for your position.
This is getting embarrassing now. I feel like I'm laughing at a retarded person in a cage at some kind of macabre circus.
Isn't there anything that can be done to help Ray?
OR there is a God who allows evil because He knows something’s about it we don't, and He will use it for His glory in the end.
Perhaps the rapist-murderer had good reason for doing what he did and we just don't understand that either. So we should also revere the rapist-murderer? Is that your argument?
God made the crucifixion of Christ also the greatest even in history and for eternity - because it brought salvation for sin and the gift of everlasting life.
Well, you don't know there's everlasting life but let's assume that your assumption is correct, then, if the rapist claims God made him rape and murder to save us from our sins, would that make it okay?
God is Good.
A God who purposely allows earthly suffering so as to increase his own glory is not, by any useful definition, "good". He's more likely demented.
It's sad to see all this time go into trying to convince sinners that there is a place of fire where God will torture them for eternity since they fell short of the glory of God.
The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in torment! There is no point in debating whether death is real; everyone alive knows this.
Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead don't know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten
Ray Comfort
And if He is good, He must by nature punish a man who has tied up and raped three teenage girls, and then one by one, strangled them to death. In this case, justice delayed is not justice denied. God will bring that murderer to judgment and see that he gets exactly what he deserves
And Anna Frank also deserves eternity in the flames of hell being tormented there for all times? You must see how totally unreasonable that is.
You must also see that you cannot dictate God about what He must do. God can choose what ever punishment He sees fit and the punishment you can see from Genesis to Revelation is death.
@ Brand New Christian
Ah, the power of Poe. Got me.
BTW: Are you secretly Edward Current? If so, rock on!
Cheers.
Ray
you always mention that we have evidence of God all around us, if we look at the beauty of His creation.
Problem is people have addressed that claim by presenting an alternative explanation based on gathered evidence that explains a lot of the structures in this world, without invoking higher powers.
If any debate on this topic is to continue you must address the non-believers counter claims, which requires knowledge in the sciences., since that is how the evidence is gathers.
You do make attempts on your blog and in your books trying to discredit evolution for example, but a lot of the posts counter that as well or show the fallacies, and you never bother to further address criticism of your statements.
But let's say that we go back 200 years, when the sciences were not as advanced . The complexity of nature would suggest a God since no other explanation is present and hence it would be more reasonable to believe that. But that's as far as you can get, by looking at nature, it's impossible to come to a conclusion that a triune God of the bible is real just by looking at nature. The Muslim holy book also attributes the beauty of nature to a God, but how would a man come to Jesus as the requirement of Christianity by just admiring nature, you cannot.
What are you going to tell all the deists, who see God as the maker?
You and St. Paul make a fallacious leap that states we are without an excuse for not believing in God/Jesus by not seeing him in nature, since you cannot know what God even if you believe God created all.
Ray
you always mention that we have evidence of God all around us, if we look at the beauty of His creation.
Problem is people have addressed that claim by presenting an alternative explanation based on gathered evidence that explains a lot of the structures in this world, without invoking higher powers.
If any debate on this topic is to continue you must address the non-believers counter claims, which requires knowledge in the sciences., since that is how the evidence is gathers.
You do make attempts on your blog and in your books trying to discredit evolution for example, but a lot of the posts counter that as well or show the fallacies, and you never bother to further address criticism of your statements.
But let's say that we go back 200 years, when the sciences were not as advanced . The complexity of nature would suggest a God since no other explanation is present and hence it would be more reasonable to believe that. But that's as far as you can get, by looking at nature, it's impossible to come to a conclusion that a triune God of the bible is real just by looking at nature. The Muslim holy book also attributes the beauty of nature to a God, but how would a man come to Jesus as the requirement of Christianity by just admiring nature, you cannot.
What are you going to tell all the deists, who see God as the maker?
You and St. Paul make a fallacious leap that states we are without an excuse for not believing in God/Jesus by not seeing him in nature, since you cannot know what God even if you believe God created all.
"Hell is no empty threat. If I believed it was, I wouldn’t bother warning you. However, the way for anyone who doesn't like the thought is to say that you don’t believe in God. That cuts the problem off for you at the Source."
I believe God may exist.
Hell is a Christian lie.
...
Next?
"If you were reasonable, I would say that we know that Hell exists because we know intuitively that God is good"
Ray, you continue to astound me with displays of unbridled density. It's clear that your fans value emotion more than they value knowledge.
Please do yourself a favor and stop rejecting your God-given brain.
Carl said...
"Treego said...
You want EVIDENCE? How about THIS?
"To Hell and Back" is a documentary film here: "
How did you get that link past Ray? Anyhow, there is no such film at the link.
Ray only let links get into his blog when they are in support of him. That is why all the links that allegedly slip through Ray's "censorship" process just happen to be from fellow Christians. If I posted a totally relevent link that supported what I thought, or mentioned my websites, Ray would block it. If I posted something from TBN, WOTM, or somethign Ray agrees with, he would most likely let it pass through.
Mr Smith said...
"This is getting embarrassing now. I feel like I'm laughing at a retarded person in a cage at some kind of macabre circus.
Isn't there anything that can be done to help Ray?"
[blatant monty Python reference]
He could get a new Brain! He could get one of those "Curry Brains".
Great post, Ray!
Vince said...
"I have a question for all the fair minded atheists..."
I'll take that as your admission that such things as "fair minded atheists" exist. See, Ray doesn't think they do -- because if we were reasonable, we MUST agree with him. Since none of us do agree with him, he concludes that we aren't fair-minded. :)
Vince Said:
"I'm new to this; never really argue that much. But I read your posts and wonder... do you feel powerful enough to demand an audience with God? I don't feel confident to demand an audience with our president much less the King of the universe."
Well, we don't believe in things like God, so asking for an audience would NOT be what we're asking for. What we're asking for are things like "Consistancy", "Rational arguments", and "actual proof". What Ray spews forth is rarely consistant, irrational, and often times just plain ignorant.
Vince wrote:
"It seems that you expect Him to bow down to your terms. Prove to me that you exist You yell!"
No, We are simply asking Christians who make various claims to actually put up or shut up -- For example, Ray once had a debate where he claimed that he could "prove God's existence scientifically, without making any references to faith or the Bible". He started off by reading the 10 commandments, and appealing to faith -- a blatant contradiction. Then, he claimed that he never claimed that he would try to prove God's existence scientifically at all. He was caught in a blatant lie, because all the email leading up to the debate proved that he was agreeing to prove his claim.
To be brief, though -- we are asking for people making extreaordinary claims to substantiate them in a LOGICAL, RATIONAL, and CONSISTANT way -- we are making no demands on God. We believe that anything true should meet certain standards of logic and proof. We are asking the believers to live up to the standards of reason and logic that the rest of the academic and rational world does.
Vince wrote:
"But looking into the burning cauldren which lights our day - which was flung into existence by His pinkie.. how far do suppose your squeaky little voice carries? God word says "without faith it is impossible to please God" He just thought you might want to know... if you discard this tidbid of information which the martyrs have preserved with their lifes blood so that you could know it.. well then so be it."
As I said -- we make no demands on God. We only make reasonable, logical, rational demands on those who promote him. We ask for believers who have certain claims to substantiate them, especially when the claims do not appear to match up to reality.
Vince wrote:
"You want to know God personally - like Moses. Well, once that meeting occurs you will be in the relm of experience. (like your verifiable wind, gravity observations)"
But wind and gravity can be measured, even if you do not believe in them. They can be independantly verified no matter what a person's personal beliefs are.
Vince wrote:
"Gods terms: Start with faith, then as you progress on MY terms, I will give you verifiable experience. Are you willing to start?"
Okay, how does this sound to you -- If you believe that I'm the King of Sweden, then I can prove it to you. That doesn't quite work, does it. I mean do you find it reasonable to be told that FIRST, you have to believe that it is a fact, that I'm the King of Sweden, before I show any proof at all. Think of how that would affeect homeland security. A guy with a turban and a long beard, looking very much like Osama Bin Laden, walks up to an airport security check, and says "I'm not Osama Bin Laden. If you simply believe that I'm not Bin Laden, then I can prove it to you!"
Not a very reasonable thing. Don't you see the really terrible, irrational logic in your statement? If We simply BELIEVED in God, then why would you need to prove ANYTHING in the first place? You're asking for us to just believe you. If you believed that I was the King of Sweden before I offered proof, why would I need to offer proof after you already believed it?
Belief in the Evangelical Fundamentalist Christian God would not be so difficult if all the arguments used to prove his existence were not logical fallacies.
Vince wrote:
"His terms are clear - ask Ray he could delineate them for you.
You need to humble yourself in God's eyes and realize how insignicant you are then you will be in a place to move forward."
Right -- as I said, the problem is that beleivers tend to make lots of statements about proving God which they do not live up to. They start out (like Ray did) claiming that they can prove God's existence to people scientifically, without referencing the Bible, etc, but never actually do. They always revert to saying "Well, you have to believe in God first, THEN we'll prove his existence to you." Believing in God is not all, either -- they usually mean "accept Christianity as your one and only Truth, and believe the Bible as truth, and essentially become a Born-again Christian..."
It's a classic bait and switch. It's sort of like me telling you that I'll sell you a really nice big Caddilac for $100, then taking you to my car lot, never showing you the $100 Caddilac, and instead having you drive a bunch of Toyotas, for a lot more money, and asking you to "just believe it's a caddilac and only costs $100!"
Andy said...
Perhaps the rapist-murderer had good reason for doing what he did and we just don't understand that either. So we should also revere the rapist-murderer? Is that your argument?
___
God never causes evil or forces another person to do something evil in order to bring good. We sin well enough on our own, with our own free will. He’s allowed evil to exist knowing that He can bring good out of it (in fact He can bring out a good that couldn’t exist without it). That’s the ultimate victory of God. It the ultimate judgment over Satan and His failure. He could have made a world without evil. And He would have been glorified for His creativity and power. But in allowing evil and Judging evil for what it really is, and bringing redemption and Salvation, God will now also be glorified for His grace, mercy, and justice. God is glorified even more so by the perfect judgment of evil. Now you have a choice in how you want to glorify God. Either it will be for His justice against your sins or it will be for His grace if you repent and trust in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross. May God arrest your heart with His truth so that the choice is easy and obvious.
Judging God’s goodness by your own definition of goodness is like either of us telling Michael Phelps how to swim – it’s complete foolishness. We’re sinners. Haven’t you been wrong before? Are you good 100% of the time? If not, then you know that your ability to make a perfect judgment about “true goodness” is flawed. And if you claim to be agnostic, then you admit you don’t know the Lord. You don’t know what He knows. How can you make yourself a Judge over someone you don’t know? Read the Bible and get to know Him.
Enjoy your day,
Keith
Alex said:
As you explore your new faith, remember once thing: saying so don't make it so, nor does wishing it were so.
Good luck!
Thats what we have been trying to tell you. Just saying or wishing there is no God does not make it so.
Wow! first 12 comments by my count are pretty upset about God's justice. I'm again reminded of the old chinese proverb that says, throw rock into pack of dog and one who yelps is one who get hit.
What is hell like, specifically?
I can only think that he wants only the best for EVERY square inch of his Creation: the rapist, murderer and genocidal maniac included...Your God is too small, Ray.
Your God is made up, Kippastrophe. Ps 7:11 (God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day)couldn't be any more clear...I can't imagine an interpretation that would reconcile this with "he wants only the best for EVERY square inch of his Creation: the rapist, murderer and genocidal maniac included" Go ahead and give it a shot, I'd love to hear it. The honest answer is I know that's what the Bible says but I don't like the Bible or the God is speaks of.
Let's see:
1. God creates man
2. Man that God created is evil, rapes and murders someone
3. God must punish this man by roasting him in eternal fire
So, let's say I create a robot. I build this robot and after I turn it on, it rapes and kills someone. Should the robot be punished, or should I be punished for making a killer robot?
You might find Maurice Rawlings' book, To Hell and Back. He provides evidence of hell from his observations as a cardiologist when people were brought back to life after flat line experiences. A former atheist, what he saw convinced and convicted him of the need for Jesus.
Whateverman student, said "I believe God may exist. Hell is a Christian lie. Next?"
My dear student,
You need to hit the books on this subject! Christians did not dream up the realm called "Hell". If you check ancient Hebrew scriptures you will learn of this place, or if you step foot in a public library, you will get the real story, not the fabricated lies of atheist websites.
It was around long before Christianity took place with Jesus Christ. Any scholar will tell you that. Check my blog for "Hell", it will point you in the right direction.
Here's a passage from the Old Testament, at the end it refers to 'Hell'.
Isaiah 66:22-24 NLT
22 “As surely as my new heavens and earth will remain,
so will you always be my people, with a name that will never disappear,”
says the Lord.
23 “All humanity will come to worship me from week to week
and from month to month.
24 And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me.
For the worms that devour them will never die, and the fire that burns them will never go out.
All who pass by will view them with utter horror.”
Try Luke, chapter 16 for more details on a place called "Hell".
Luke 16:19-31
19 Jesus said, “There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed in purple and fine linen and who lived each day in luxury.
20 At his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus who was covered with sores.
21 As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man’s table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.
22 “Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried,
23 and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side.
24 “The rich man shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.’
25 “But Abraham said to him, ‘Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish.
26 And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.’
27 “Then the rich man said, ‘Please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father’s home.
28 For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don’t end up in this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.’
30 “The rich man replied, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.’
31 “But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.’”
The Truth about Hell is horrifying, but by the grace of God, we have a "WAY" to avoid it.
In His great wisdom, He sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross for our sins! Don't hesitate, don't wait a minute, you could gone any minute! Without Jesus Christ in your life, you will be taken there! Please avoid this horrible place.
Praying for all non-believers!
HBKS video on my website with prophecies of our Savior Jesus Christ!!!
See you in Hades, Ray.
Brother Terry,
I love you and Jesus loves you too. I will pray for you.
By the way, I really love your blog. I went there twice this morning to watch HBKS!
In His Glorious Eternal Everlasting Love,
BNC
@Ray
... If you didn’t like gravity, history, the wind or love. Those things can’t be seen, and therefore wouldn’t exist if you didn’t believe in them either. Anything that you don’t like will not exist if you just say that you don’t believe in it.
Just like biological evolution, the big bang, constant decay rates, particle physics, geological time layers, relative dating, the 15 billion year age of the universe, the 5 billion year age of the Earth, the speed of light as a constant, genetic evidence of common ancestry, and examples of transitional species?
Sorry, had to say it. :)
@keith
Firstly, thanks for your persistence.
Andy said...
Perhaps the rapist-murderer had good reason for doing what he did and we just don't understand that either. So we should also revere the rapist-murderer? Is that your argument?
Keith responded:
God never causes evil or forces another person to do something evil in order to bring good.
That's not what I said. I asked if we should revere a rapist who claims we simply don't understand why he does what he does but assures us it's all for a good cause?
He’s allowed evil to exist knowing that He can bring good out of it (in fact He can bring out a good that couldn’t exist without it).
Tell that to the raped and murdered girls in Ray's story. Tell that to their parents and friends. Tell them God let it happen because He's got more important things to attend to. In fact, tell them it had to happen so God's plan could properly unfold. In other words, according to you, God's grand plan actually requires that girls get raped and murdered.
Remind me again about how God is good?
That’s the ultimate victory of God.
Three raped and murdered girls is a victory for God? Is this just some weird sadistic game we're all being forced to play?
He could have made a world without evil. And He would have been glorified for His creativity and power. But in allowing evil and Judging evil for what it really is, and bringing redemption and Salvation, God will now also be glorified for His grace, mercy, and justice.
Well, now, you see, you're losing me big time. I'm trying to follow the logic but I just can't. I'd appreciate, maybe even glorify, His grace, mercy and justice if He just stopped evil, as you say He can.
If He's going to actually encourage evil just so He can "flip the bird" at Satan, then, well, I won't be glorifying Him.
God is glorified even more so by the perfect judgment of evil.
So, given the choice between a God who would prevent rape, torture and murder and one who purposely allows it for His own ends, you'd choose the God that encourages evil?
Are you sure you're not still one of those evil atheists Ray talks about?
Now you have a choice in how you want to glorify God.
I actually have a choice to completely ignore Him. There's absolutely no way I'm going to glorify the sadist you describe. He needs putting away.
Either it will be for His justice against your sins or it will be for His grace if you repent and trust in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross. May God arrest your heart with His truth so that the choice is easy and obvious.
The only arresting that needs be done around here is of the One that is allowing and encouraging people to rape and murder so He can win a bet with Satan.
Judging God’s goodness by your own definition of goodness is like either of us telling Michael Phelps how to swim – it’s complete foolishness.
So, because I'm not a swimmer, rape and murder are okay. Are you aware of what you're saying?
The basis of Ray's crusade against athism is that atheists have no moral basis yet here you are, one of Ray's beloved Christians, telling me that God actually HAS TO ALLOW evil so he can score a few points in some odd, supernatural sporting event. So it's actually the Christians who excuse evil, not the atheists.
We’re sinners.
So you keep saying - but it's okay because you said God needs sinners. If we're sinning, we're actually doing God's work.
Haven’t you been wrong before?
No good skeptic claims unerring righteousness. We leave that to believers.
Are you good 100% of the time?
I've never raped or murdered.
If not, then you know that your ability to make a perfect judgment about “true goodness” is flawed.
I can't build a house but I know a crooked roof when I see one and your, sorry, your God's, apparent definition of goodness definitely has a wonky roof.
When you determine that condoning rape and murder forms part of a definition of goodness, you need a new dictionary. Actually, any dictionary should do it.
And if you claim to be agnostic, then you admit you don’t know the Lord.
I can't know Him. He won't reveal Himself and all the evidence suggests He doesn't exist.
Anyway, I said I was agnostic when I arrived here. That's under review now that I've seen the Christian definition of goodness.
You don’t know what He knows.
Well, that's just silly reasoning. Do you know what Santa knows? If not, then how can you claim not to believe in him (I assume you don't?)
Thanks again.
Evidence in a testimonial way of how peoples lives were taken from them.
Why oh why would someone die if it was just a hoax?
Why then take the awful risk to tell us Jesus rose?
Simple men from Galilee would not have spoken lies
To get enrolled in history books as martyrs for Jesus Christ
James was caught by Herod, Herod captured Peter
They were sharin' Herod's outbreak of attacks upon believers
James would have to face the sword and Peter would escape it
They were not afraid of dyin'; they both knew that they could take it
Thomas preached in Babylon and India they claim
Then the local folks impaled him with a lance while he was prayin'
They were all about to die but they weren't thinking much about it
And their story didn't have a chance but none of 'em were doubtin'
Why oh why would someone die if it was just a hoax?
Why then take the awful risk to tell us Jesus rose?
Simple men from Galilee would not have spoken lies
To get enrolled in history books as martyrs for Jesus Christ
Simon died along with Jude from arrows, spears or crosses
Someone gave Bartholomew a skin-removal process
Some of them were stoned alive like James the son of Alphaeus
And their stories are the evidence that none of them were doubters
Why oh why would someone die if it was just a hoax?
Why then take the awful risk to tell us Jesus rose?
Simple men like you and me would not have spoken lies
To get well known in all the books as martyrs for Jesus Christ
A lot of guys were crucified for calling Him Messiah
Philip died and Andrew did and possibly Matthias
Peter's was a most unpleasant death for being Christian
They would turn him upside down and then go through with crucifixion
Paul he was beheaded probl'y Matthew did the same
Well, they threw off of the temple top the other guy named James
They were all about to die but they weren't thinking much about it
That's a gorey bunch of evidence that none of them were doubters
Apologetix
Keith (ex-atheist) sez:
God never causes evil or forces another person to do something evil in order to bring good.
Are you sure about that, Keith?
Exodus 7:3-4:
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you.
LIke I said, anyone wishing to see what atheists REALLY have to say for themselves, just needs to go to my Blog. All you need to do is substitute raycomfortfood with priscusforem.
MattD tried to appear rational by saying: "First, you're wrong about “finite” sins – all sin against God is infinite because of Who He is."
Right.
So when less than half a dozen people existed on Earth (according to the Bible), incest wasn't a sin because God required his subjects to survive and propagate. Once we had reached some critical mass (of buck-toothed inbred cousins), incest became infinitely sinful and punishable by infinite torture.
Makes complete sense...
Look, it's patently obvious what's going on here: Christianity has gone to remarkable lengths to portray its dogma as divine law; this is no more apparent than it is in Catholicism.
The vast majority of "rules" were written by uninspired human leaders, who felt the need to save & protect the ignorant masses.
Even "the Bible" seems to be made up of a few dozen books, the writers and subjects of which have all been portrayed as mouthpieces of God (rather than people communicating ideas through parable).
Insisting that these represent the Word of God forces those who interpret them literally to ridiculous conclusions: infinite punishment for children, salvation and a place in Heaven for mass murderers (as long as they repent and accept Jesus Christ as Lord), sins which are sins only when God says so (and not before)...
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time being compassionate for people who are oblivious to the idiocy they portray as Truth.
Hell is a lie. Transubstantiation is a laughable myth. God's inifinite love and merciless justice is a farce.
Wake up. Your value as a human being (possibly with a soul) is measured by the way you treat your fellow human beings. If there's a heaven, you'll get there by helping more people than you hurt.
You're not gonna find eternal bliss by reading a book.
(1611 wrote):
"Your God is made up, Kippastrophe. Ps 7:11 (God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day)couldn't be any more clear...I can't imagine an interpretation that would reconcile this with "he wants only the best for EVERY square inch of his Creation: the rapist, murderer and genocidal maniac included" Go ahead and give it a shot, I'd love to hear it. The honest answer is I know that's what the Bible says but I don't like the Bible or the God is speaks of..."
Or, my honest answer is that I know that the Bible says this along with a host of other things about God. Case in point:
"Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will hardship, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written,
'For your sake we are being killed all day long;
we are accounted as sheep to be slaughtered.' No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Who are you or Ray Comfort to judge the hearts of men?
The Bible says what it does because it was written by men, and people have struggled forever to understand and accurately describe who God is. I don't believe that they always got it right; not even in the Bible, which retains some extreme claims about who God is. I like the Bible just fine. If I didn't, then I probably would not care so much what other people think about it; nor would I be so concerned to correct so many misconceptions about it and how to read and use it.
Whateverman said: I believe God may exist. Hell is a Christian lie. Next?
Terry said: My dear student
I'm not a student of your religion or your system of beliefs. Talk down to me again, and you will take your rightful place in my killfile (aka. Blog Purgatory)
You need to hit the books on this subject! Christians did not dream up the realm called "Hell". If you check ancient Hebrew scriptures you will learn of this place, or if you step foot in a public library, you will get the real story, not the fabricated lies of atheist websites.
Terry, why do you assume my rejection of Hell has anything to do with atheism? Why do you also assume I've done no studying on my own?
The concept of Hell being tossed around in this blog is a Christian lie. If Judaism claims something similar exists, I disbelieve in their version too.
Hell was a simplistic tool used by the Christian institution (ie. religious and governmental leaders) to motivate people into 'being good'. Nothing short of eternal torture seemed to have much effect.
Christianity (as an institution) is morally bankrupt. It tries to control through fear, it is intolerant of other religions and points of view, and vastly overestimates it's value to humanity.
To be sure, individual Christians are capable of good deeds. Many Christians I know are caring respectful and moral folks. Their religion represents their personal belief, and as such, they don't spend much time trying to convert others - or worrying about the mortal souls of the unconverted.
All of this is to say the following: your institution carries no moral weight with me. From this one post alone, I've concluded that you, as well, lack any ethical or spiritual currency.
Hell is a lie. It doesn't take atheism to lead one to that conslusion.
"From Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God Jonathan Edwards."
Why should words from a human selling a book convince us that eternal hellfire is factual and not myth?
Keith (in The empty threat of hell)
God never causes evil or forces another person to do something evil in order to bring good. We sin well enough on our own, with our own free will.
Keith (in Is God Guilty of Murder)
it's called common grace. Even now God's hand restrains you from doing everything your heart first thinks about doing.
Really Keith, which is it? Am I free willed and able to sin when I want, or is God preventing me from sinning?
@brianb,
Thanks for you post.
The point you may be missing is this:
A theist asserts "there is a God." In support of that he/she tenders evidence, a lot of which consists of little more than bald allegations that there is a God. That's what I mean by saying that saying so don't make it so.
The atheist looks at the theist's argument and observes that the evidence in support of the God hypothesis is flawed. Since the evidence is flawed, the proposition that there is a God has not been established.
That's all the atheist really says, that you can say that God exists until you're blue in the face, and you can hope that God exists with every fiber of your being, and you can believe in God with ultimate fervor but, sadly for the theist, none of this constitutes anything remotely resembling evidence in support of the contention that there may be a God, let alone establishing that as a fact.
I also want to note that even if the theist got to the point of establishing that there may be a God, something which I deny, the theist then faces the hurdle of which of the plethora of gods humans believe or have believed in is the one true God.
All good things.
Whateverman said...
Keith (in The empty threat of hell)
God never causes evil or forces another person to do something evil in order to bring good. We sin well enough on our own, with our own free will.
Keith (in Is God Guilty of Murder)
it's called common grace. Even now God's hand restrains you from doing everything your heart first thinks about doing.
Really Keith, which is it? Am I free willed and able to sin when I want, or is God preventing me from sinning?
___
It's the paradox of God's sovereignty and man's free will.
As a naturalist are your choices grounded in free will or the result of a complex chemical reaction and thus purely mechanical and deterministic?
Blogger Zach said...
Evidence in a testimonial way of how peoples lives were taken from them.
Why oh why would someone die if it was just a hoax?
[...]
They were all about to die but they weren't thinking much about it
That's a gorey bunch of evidence that none of them were doubters.
After September 11 the "why would somebody knowingly die for a false belief" argument disappeared
But now that 9/11 has slipped into the pages of history and our memories are fading, the argument is obviously starting to make a come back.
It all sounds like history repeating.
keywesthaven1@msn.com (Terry)
You need to hit the books on this subject! Christians did not dream up the realm called "Hell". If you check ancient Hebrew scriptures you will learn of this place, or if you step foot in a public library, you will get the real story, not the fabricated lies of atheist websites
Was that an example of hell from the Old Testament?
Speaking of the final judgment of the wicked it says: "24 And as they go out, they will see the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me".
Where is the eternal lake of fire with billions of people screaming in agony?
The truth is that the word hell should never appear in any translation of the Old Testament. The word that is a few times translated as hell is just as often translated as grave and it's the word sheol. The only reason some translators translated sheol sometimes as hell is because they thought the person was bad and going to hell.
The doctrine of eternal torment has absolutely no support from the Old Testament. On the other hand that sinners will be destroyed is very clear in the Old Testament:
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away
Psalm 104:35
Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more
Job 21:30
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath
Keith (in The empty threat of hell): "God never causes evil or forces another person to do something evil in order to bring good. We sin well enough on our own, with our own free will."
Keith (in Is God Guilty of Murder): "it's called common grace. Even now God's hand restrains you from doing everything your heart first thinks about doing."
Whateverman: Really Keith, which is it? Am I free willed and able to sin when I want, or is God preventing me from sinning?
___
Keith's answer: It's the paradox of God's sovereignty and man's free will.
As a naturalist are your choices grounded in free will or the result of a complex chemical reaction and thus purely mechanical and deterministic?
Whateverman: The so-called "paradox" appears to be created by Christian doctrine. Of those who interpret the Bible literally, ridiculous conclusions like the one above are common place: God is both omipotent and controlling/influencing everything, yet we have the free will to bo completely evil in opposition to this deity's wishes.
Stop interpretting the X books that make up "The Bible" literally, and see the content as 95% parable (5% historical). Problems like this will disappear.
In response to your question, here's an answer I and every rational person can live with:
I DON'T KNOW
To be sure, conciousness is shaped/influenced by chemistry. Beyond that, the "Chemistry vs Conciousness" dichotomy is false. there is no evidence that it has to be only one or the other. My intuition tells me that it's a combination of the two.
BUT I REALLY DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.
Why fundamentalists are so afraid of saying that is beyond me.
(Kippastrophe wrote)
Or, my honest answer is that I know that the Bible says this along with a host of other things about God. Case in point:
"Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will hardship, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written,
'For your sake we are being killed all day long;
we are accounted as sheep to be slaughtered.' No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
...I like the Bible just fine. If I didn't, then I probably would not care so much what other people think about it; nor would I be so concerned to correct so many misconceptions about it and how to read and use it.
Hi Kippastrophe,
If your concerned with how to accurately read and use it you must be familiar with basic Bible Hermeneutics such as getting the context. You quoted Romans 8:35-39 without giving the reference or the context of who Paul is addressing in the two verses prior:
"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth. Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." So you see, Paul isn't addressing the rapist, murderer and genocidal maniac as you suppose, but rather the elect who He makes intercession for. It's important that you rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15)...but more importantly, please repent and trust in Christ today. God bless.
Mofi-
As usual, Terry is completely wrong, but that never seems to stop his absurd flow of ecumenical excrement.
Jewish theology never purports that a soul suffer eternal damnation in the fiery lakes of Hell. That is a New Testament concept.
In Jewish theology, from what I have studied, there is a place, Gehenah, where some souls go after death, for a time (under 11 months) to repent for their sins, until they can be with God in the heavens.
A persons life has already been judged, (no little traffic court scenario like Ray proposes) and if your life has been found wanting, the penalty is a seperation from God, rather than being close to God for eternity.
As an analogy, the Jewish concept of the afterlife is sort of like a sold out concert at a stadium. If you lead a very good, pious life, your front row tickets are waiting for you at will-call. If you lead an OK life, your seats are in the 2nd or 3rd mezzanine. If you are Adolf Hilter, you have to wait outside the stadium till you repent, and then you can get standing room in the nosebleed section.
Now, does this concept of the afterlife really make any more sense then the Christian concept of eternal damnation? Not really, but at least it's not quite as malicious, and it's not run by Satan, but that's for another post.
Benjamin Franklin
In Jewish theology, from what I have studied, there is a place, Gehenah, where some souls go after death, for a time (under 11 months) to repent for their sins, until they can be with God in the heavens.
I don't know of any verses in the Old Testament talking about Gehenah and 11 months; where do you get this from?
Benjamin Franklin
A persons life has already been
judged, (no little traffic court scenario like Ray proposes) and if your life has been found wanting, the penalty is a seperation from God, rather than being close to God for eternity.
Both Old and New Testament talk about judgment day when all works will be brought forth. So yes, there is no traffic going on to heaven and hell now but it hasn't happened yet.
Benjamin Franklin
As an analogy, the Jewish concept of the afterlife is sort of like a sold out concert at a stadium. If you lead a very good, pious life, your front row tickets are waiting for you at will-call. If you lead an OK life, your seats are in the 2nd or 3rd mezzanine. If you are Adolf Hilter, you have to wait outside the stadium till you repent, and then you can get standing room in the nosebleed section.
I don't see this in Scripture. The way to salvation is the same in the Old Testament and in the New Testament. In the Old Testament you repented and trusted that God was going to pay the fine which was represented in the sacrifices they made in the Old Testament. In the New Testament it's the same but we trust in the payment God has already made on Calvary.
Benjamin Franklin
Now, does this concept of the afterlife really make any more sense then the Christian concept of eternal damnation? Not really, but at least it's not quite as malicious, and it's not run by Satan, but that's for another post.
Why not just life and death? We know what life is like and we know what death is like; it's the absence of life. Salomon talks of the dead as they know nothing and David says there are no thoughts in death. This state is not foreign to us for we were all dead before we were born.
As for heaven, the Old Testament describes it as our world but without evil for example:
Isaiah 11
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Unfortunatley you will have proof when your body dies and you go to meet The Lord. By then it will be extrememly too late and I fear terribly for you. Why do you argue with us if what we say is not true. You are in your sins and The Law of G-d hangs over you.
BUT I REALLY DON'T KNOW FOR SURE.
Why fundamentalists are so afraid of saying that is beyond me.
I think it's because they're afraid of being killed to death - forever.
But I don't know for sure.
Luke 16:
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Unfortunatley you will have proof when your body dies and you go to meet The Lord. By then it will be extrememly too late and I fear terribly for you. Why do you argue with us if what we say is not true. You are in your sins and The Law of G-d hangs over you.
Please substantiate your assertion with evidence.
kanderson4300, we have very good reasons not to take the story of Lazarus and the rich man literally.
It is simply a parable used to emphasize a point. Many facts make it clear that this is a parable. A few are as follows:
1: Abraham's bosom is not heaven (Hebrews 11:8-10, 16)
2: People in hell can't talk to those in heaven (Isaiah 65: 17)
3: The dead are in their graves (Job 17:13; John 5:28, 29). The rich man was in bodily form with eyes, a tongue, etc., yet we know that the body does not go to hell at death. It is very obvious that the body remains in the grave, as the Bible says. If you'd like to know more about what happens after you die visit The Truth About Death website.
4: Men are rewarded at Christ's second coming, not at death (Revelation 22:11, 12)
5: The lost are punished in hell at the end of the world, not when they die (Matthew 13:40-42). The point of the story is found in verse 31 of Luke 16. Parables cannot be taken literally. If we took parables literally, then we must believe that trees talk! (See this parable in Judges 9:8-15)
By representing the beggar as being in heaven and the rich man as lost, Jesus taught His hearers that, contrary to the prevailing view, wealth was not necessarily an indicator of divine favor, just as poverty was not a sign of God's judgement upon a person.
Jesus was also seeking to educate the Jews that salvation would not be theirs by birthright. The rich man in torments calls out to "father Abraham," just as the Jews of Jesus' day were mistakenly pointing to heritage as proof of their assurance of salvation.
Furthermore, Jesus was seeking to lead His hearers to understand that only faithfulness to God's Word would prepare them to enter into eternal life. He told them, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:31).
To use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in order to promote the false doctrine of an eternally burning hell is to misuse God's Word and to misrepresent His character. Further more the Bible does not say that the suffering of the rich man were going to last forever; it just says that the rich man was in torment.
Mofi
For further info, google: about (dot) com, Judaism, Ask Rabbi Simmons, Heaven, Hell, afterlife.
Atheists constantly ask for proof of God, but can't accept a lot of other things to try and get their attention, so here is my simple, yet current to today, attempt.
Maybe atheists won't see this as proof of sin, which in turn (possibly to them) proof of God, but let me float this "proof" to you and see what is asked then.
Everyone, to date, should (I say should because there are many that don't) have moral standards (i.e. don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, etc.), but I ask, what moral standards do children have?
The Bible says we are born sinners, which begs the question, why, if (according to atheists) there is no God which means there is no sin, do children from birth disobey their parents?
When have you ever (and I mean EVER) seen a child immediately and always obey what was asked or told of them to do?
Now I know some will say it's because they haven't been taught right from wrong or they aren't old enough to know the difference, but I say that if that's the case, then from where do we learn right from wrong? If it's taught over the generations, where did our moral standards generate from?
The only logical answer has to be from God. Those standards were planted in our soul before we were formed.
We know from common sense, that it's wrong to steal, lie, cheat, kill, etc., but I say our common sense is the moral standards given us by God. Maybe the "proof" is here, there are plenty of adults today who didn't have a previous generation to teach them right from wrong, so then, how did they learn? I propose that they just "knew" it. It was their common sense (moral standards) that taught them.
That only leaves one thing. You have to look at those "common sense" standards in yourself to see if you are worthy of forgiveness by God for you breaking them. Do you have common sense to know you have sinned? After you come to understand and admit that you have sinned, then you have to ask for forgiveness for sinning, turn from sinning again and trust and believe in Jesus, sent by God, who took (so you wouldn't have to) your deserved punishment for your sin against God.
Just curious on others thoughts to this. How do you argue against this? I know there will be some.
Thank you.
Please substantiate your assertion with evidence.
Please substantiate why what we proclaim bothers you so much?
Please substantiate your assertion with evidence.
Please substantiate why it is that what we proclaim bothers you so much?
To use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in order to promote the false doctrine of an eternally burning hell is to misuse God's Word and to misrepresent His character. Further more the Bible does not say that the suffering of the rich man were going to last forever; it just says that the rich man was in torment.
Who do you say that Jesus is?
Robert said: The Bible says we are born sinners, which begs the question, why, if (according to atheists) there is no God which means there is no sin, do children from birth disobey their parents?
I'm not an anthropologist, psychologist or sociologist. I'm giving you my opinion as an answer:
From birth, children are egocentrists. The world revolves around them, as evinced by their parents: Mom and Dad give them food and hugs and stuff to play with.
It takes wisdom to understand that, even if you don't want to do something, there are times when the opinions of other people should be taken seriously. Maybe the guy in the blue uniform knows what he's talking about when he says "Don't play in the street, young man".
Kids fundamentally lack the ability to see outside themselves. They're innately selfish (though not always to a fault). They actually *need* to be taught that the opinions of other people are important, or valuable, or worth paying attention to.
kanderson4300
Who do you say that Jesus is?
God
To Mofi
Then he is Sovereign over ever single event that happens in all of our lives. Right? Jesus is not telling a parable but an account. He warns over and over of weeping and knashing of teeth. He warns of judgement and the lake of fire. He is our Master and our Creator. He brought the message and attonement for sin when he came first to the Jew and then to the gentiles. The rich man was not in torment because of his social status but because the condition of his heart. He came to warn us to repent and fromt what? Torment. That is why he went to the cross to pay for us what we cannot pay. Why? To save us from judgment and hell. Which is described as the lake of fire. Our body will not see it but a very real soul that has full feeling and senses of pain and torment. HE IS THE CREATOR AND WE ARE THE CREATION. We can choose to love him and obey him voluntarily or choose to deny him and walk away. I am trying to help you to understand that you must take in the whole council of G-d's word. Hell is real just as real as the Kingdom to come with him ruling and reigning. Thanks for listening.
kanderson4300
Then he is Sovereign over ever single event that happens in all of our lives. Right? Jesus is not telling a parable but an account.
Matthew 13:34
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Jesus spoke to people in parables but talked directly to His disciples. For example, talking about a man called Lazarus Jesus said this:
John 11
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
So, Lazarus was not in hades and was not in heaven, Lazarus was sleeping ( dead ) in his grave just like the Bible describes death in so many places. So, was Jesus saying a parable when He spoke to the Pharisees about the rich man and Lazarus or was Jesus lying to His followers about where Lazarus was?
For examples of those who are dead being a sleep see: Psalm 13:13, 1 Corinthians 15:18, Matthew 9:24, Mark 5:39, Luke 8:52, John 11:11, John 11:32, Deuteronomy 31:16, Acts 13:36, 1 Kings 2:10, 1 Kings 2:10, 2 Samuel 7:12, Acts 7:59-60, 2 Peter 3:4, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 and many others.
kanderson4300
He warns over and over of weeping and knashing of teeth. He warns of judgement and the lake of fire. He is our Master and our Creator.
I totally agree that Jesus warned of judgment and of weeping and gnashing of teeth. What I don't agree on is the eternal torment part.
kanderson4300
That is why he went to the cross to pay for us what we cannot pay.
If the price is eternity in the flames of hell then Jesus didn't pay that price. On the other hand, if the price is pain and death then Jesus certainly did pay that price.
kanderson4300
Our body will not see it but a very real soul that has full feeling and senses of pain and torment.
When we look at how man became a soul we see that it's the union of our physical body plus the spirit of life.
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul
kanderson4300
I am trying to help you to understand that you must take in the whole council of G-d's word.
Then I'd expect to see clear verses from Scripture from Genesis to Revelation that sinners will be tormented for eternity but I don't have those verses.
Was God lying to Adam when He warned Adam about what would happen if Adam ate from the tree of knowledge?
Genesis 2
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Now we must agree that Adam can end up in hell just like everyone who disobeys God and Adam certainly disobeyed God. Now, we don't see God warning Adam of a fate of eternal torment. We actually don't see God warning anyone in the Old Testament of eternal torment.
Now please tell me, which is more likely that the wages of sin is death or that God never warned anyone of eternal life in torment for four thousand years?
Just to make it clear; Jesus never warned of eternal torment either.
I hope you don't cling to man made doctrines and traditions but can accept what the word of God plainly says; the wages of sin is death.
Whateverman said: "It takes wisdom to understand that, even if you don't want to do something, there are times when the opinions of other people should be taken seriously......Kids fundamentally lack the ability to see outside themselves. They're innately selfish (though not always to a fault). They actually *need* to be taught that the opinions of other people are important, or valuable, or worth paying attention to."
My first question to you is to ask if you an atheist? If so, then I would ask why you don't believe in what you say when you say the above quote. Here again, "It takes wisdom to understand that, even if you don't want to do something, there are times when the opinions of other people should be taken seriously." Why can't atheists accept this fundamental belief of taking other people's (Christians) opinions (I call them truths) seriously without questioning them? Why is it hard to accept the mere possibility of the existence of God without your much needed "proof"?
Let me ask this. What color is the sky? Ask anyone and they will tell you the sky is blue. They believe it because it is what they “see” with their own eyes and it could be the only "proof" anyone needs (you know the seeing is believing thing), but the fact is that the sky isn't blue at all, it actually has no color. What is seen is a refraction of light as it passes through the earth's atmosphere. Yet people still believe the sky to be blue because they “see” it.
Secondly, I don’t really think you understood the concept of my thoughts and questions. My questions weren’t asking or talking about not accepting other people’s opinion, they were speaking to the fact that children disobey (dishonor) their parents from birth, which is sinful. From your quote above, teaching children by what your opinion states reinforces my thoughts. If children (kids is the plural name for baby goats) lack the ability to see outside themselves and that they are "innately selfish" needing to be taught, then by what standards (forgetting societal laws) and where do we teach our children from. Laws by society came from somewhere, you have to admit that. But who was first in saying that this is wrong or that is wrong and where did they get that from. It had to have originated from somewhere or, in my opinion, someone. Why is it hard to believe it could have been God teaching his children? You are right in the sense that we are born “ego centrists” and in that fact we are given the choice to choose right from wrong, but we are also given the opportunity to believe or not as well. My choice is to believe, but are you sure that you should choose not to believe just because you can’t “see” any “evidence” with your own eyes?
With respect, I thank you for your thoughts.
If God exists and He can accept that atheists exist, (i.e., He created everything, then He to created atheists), why can't you just leave us alone and allow that we don't believe. Many many children may still believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus but does that make them exist? I know that the Great Wall of China probably exists, I have seen pictures of it but I personally have not been to it, seen it or touched it within my presence - yet there are enough people who have that I tend to believe in it. The difference between that and the 'visions' of God or the like is that no one has a picture, no one has a chunk of the stone that makes up God as they could from the Great Wall. Just because presents show up under a Yule Tree does not mean that Santa Claus put them there. When you add God into any equation you take away any man's personal responsibility, you take away any personal involvement. You can pray for peace all you want or for food for the starvign children in Africa but unless you get up off your butt to incite peace or go to Africa to help feed the people, your prayers are wortheless efforts and all you can then do is expound that it is 'God's will'. Tell me, how does that put food on the plate of a child in Africa and is that truly Christian? I say to be truly faithful to your faith, you would stop yakking about it and DO something. I am sure you make enough money to take a trip to Africa and feed some people or teach them a skill. Stop your praying and start acting upon that which you pray that 'others' do in your stead.
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