"Hitler himself never mentioned Darwin, rarely mentioned evolution.... When did 'act dumb and dishonest' become the greatest of the commandments, Ray?" Steven J.
"Nobody else but puling pacifists can consider this fact as a sign of human degradation. Such people fail to recognize that this evolution had to take place in order that man might reach that degree of civilization which these apostles now exploit in an attempt to make the world pay attention to their rigmarole." Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler
"In our case this term has no meaning. Because everyone who believes in the higher evolution of living organisms must admit that every manifestation of the vital urge and struggle to live must have had a definite beginning in time and that one subject alone must have manifested it for the first time. It was then repeated again and again; and the practice of it spread over a widening area, until finally it passed into the subconscious of every member of the species, where it manifested itself as 'instinct.'" Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler
"For it is a necessity of human evolution that the individual should be imbued with the spirit of sacrifice in favour of the common weal, and that he should not be influenced by the morbid notions of those knaves who pretend to know better than Nature and who have the impudence to criticize her decrees." Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler
"Organization is a thing that derives its existence from organic life, organic evolution. When the same set of ideas have found lodgment in the minds of a certain number of people they tend of themselves to form a certain degree of order among those people and out of this inner formation something that is very valuable arises. Of course here, as everywhere else, one must take account of those human weaknesses which make men hesitate, especially at the beginning, to submit to the control of a superior mind." Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler
"But this principle can become a living reality only by passing through the stages that are necessary for its own evolution. These stages lead from the smallest cell of the State organism upwards. As its bearers and representatives, the leadership principle must have a body of men who have passed through a process of selection lasting over several years, who have been tempered by the hard realities of life and thus rendered capable of carrying the principle into practical effect." Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler
http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200601.txt
Saturday, May 30, 2009
More examples of Hitler and evolution (italics added)
92 comments:
Ray do you believe that Genesis is the actual fact based account of the creation of the world by God and that the ages and lineages given in Genesis are indeed factual ?
When did 'act dumb and dishonest' become the greatest of the commandments, Ray?" Steven J
Steven,
I think you should be asking that question of yourself.
There is a gaping hole in your logic Ray, as usual.
If Hitler really did base his philosophy on "Kill the weak, only the strong can survive", which he sort of did in his own perverted sense, how does this in any way reduce the credibility of the Theory of Evolution?
Let us say Hitler decided to kill all the Jews by having them catapulted off cliffs, falling to their deaths, and in his speeches he made some passing references to the act of gravity, which in it's divine retribution, saw to it that every Jew was exterminated with extreme prejudice by its unspeakable wrath in the form of terminal velocity force.
Actually, just for the sake of argument, let us say that Hitler did it FOR the theory of gravity, he loathed all the Jews, and he simultaneously loved Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein and the Theory of Gravity so much, he wanted to symbolize the rabid extermination of all the Jews in the form of some crude occult homage to the Theory of Gravity. If we suppose this, and Hitler hence made sure every Jews death was a consequence of the law of gravity, i.e. being thrown off a cliff, being dropped headfirst down a well, being crushed by a rock dropped from the sky etc, let me ask you this, and I really hope you will answer me:
DOES THIS MAKE THE THEORY OF GRAVITY UNTRUE?
I await a reply Ray.
Part One:
Martin Luther's dirty little book:
On the Jews and their lies
A precursor to Nazism
by Jim Walker
Originated: 07 Aug. 1996
Additions: 20 Nov. 2005
Introduction
I wish to make clear that the purpose of these selections from Martin Luther aims at providing a historical and scholarly source for study of anti-Semitism, religious thought, and how it has influenced the German population and their outlook on Jews.
There will always exist a potential for misuse of any information. However, it has come from observation that hiding such information from view can lead (and has led) to unconscious support of underground movements of anti-Semitism that use these texts for their various nefarious purposes. Bringing this information to light will allow critical analyses by not only scholars, but also by everyday people to help dispel the myths founded by unsupported beliefs and to help fight the tools used by anti-Semitic cults.
A little about Dr. Martin Luther (1483-1546)
Luther, a German theologian and religious reformer, initiated the Protestant Reformation and forever split Christianity from Catholicism. His influence extends beyond religion to politics, economics, education and language. In 1505, after receiving a bachelor's and master's degree, he suddenly abandoned his studies, entered the Augustinian monastery in Erfurt and became a monk. He became a controversial figure when he published his Ninety-Five Theses, opposing the indulgences (release from the penalties for sin through the payment of money by the Catholic Church). This resulted in his split from the Roman Catholic Church where he established unique Christian interpretations about the Bible and theology. His influence resulted in the major Protestant denomination of Lutheranism where their churches today use Luther's name.
Protestant Christians so admire Martin Luther that he stands as a respected "Patron Saint" to their beliefs and morals. Christians often quote him, theologians write books on him, and many name their children after him (Martin Luther King Jr., for example).
Part Two:
Luther's anti-Jewishness
Unfortunately few popular books on Luther go into detail about Luther's anti-Jewishness, or even mention that he had a hatred for Jews at all. This has resulted in a biased outlook towards Martin Luther and Christianity. This unawareness of Luther's sinister side, while honoring his "righteousness" leads to a ratcheting promotion of Luther which supports a "good" public image while also transporting his Jewish beliefs to those who carry the seeds of anti-Semitism. This will present an unwanted dilemma for many Christians because Luther represents the birth of Protestant Christianity as well as the genesis of the special brand of Jewish hatred that flourished only in Germany.
Although Luther did not invent anti-Jewishness, he promoted it to a level never before seen in Europe. Luther bore the influence of his upbringing and from anti-Jewish theologians such as Lyra, Burgensis, (and John Chrysostom, before them). But Luther's 1543 book, "On the Jews and their lies" took Jewish hatred to a new level when he proposed to set fire to their synagogues and schools, to take away their homes, forbad them to pray or teach, or even to utter God's name. Luther wanted to "be rid of them" and requested that the government and ministers deal with the problem. He requested pastors and preachers to follow his example of issuing warnings against the Jews. He goes so far as to claim that "We are at fault in not slaying them" for avenging the death of Jesus Christ. Hitler's Nazi government in the 1930s and 40s fit Luther's desires to a tee.
So vehemently did Luther speak against the Jews, and the fact that Luther represented an honorable and admired Christian to Protestants, that his written words carried the "memetic" seeds of anti-Jewishness up until the 20th century and into the Third Reich. Luther's Jewish eliminationist rhetoric virtually matches the beliefs held by Hitler and much of the German populace in the 1930s.
Luther unconsciously set the stage for the future of German nationalistic fanaticism. William L. Shirer in his "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," puts it succinctly:
"Through his sermons and his magnificent translations of the Bible, Luther created the modern German language, aroused in the people not only a new Protestant vision of Christianity by a fervent German nationalism and taught them, at least in religion, the supremacy of the individual conscience. But tragically for them, Luther's siding with the princes in the peasant rising, which he had largely inspired, and his passion for political autocracy ensured a mindless and provincial political absolutism which reduced the vast majority of the German people to poverty, to a horrible torpor and a demeaning subservience. Even worse perhaps, it helped to perpetuate and indeed to sharpen the hopeless divisions not only between classes but also between the various dynastic and political groupings of the German people. It doomed for centuries the possibility of the unification of Germany."
Part Three:
In Mein Kampf, Hitler listed Martin Luther as one of the greatest reformers. And similar to Luther in the 1500s, Hitler spoke against the Jews. The Nazi plan to create a German Reich Church laid its bases on the "Spirit of Dr. Martin Luther." The first physical violence against the Jews came on November 9-10 on Kristallnacht (Crystal Night) where the Nazis killed Jews, shattered glass windows, and destroyed hundreds of synagogues, just as Luther had proposed. In Daniel Johah Goldhagen's book, Hitler's Willing Executioners, he writes:
"One leading Protestant churchman, Bishop Martin Sasse published a compendium of Martin Luther's antisemitic vitriol shortly after Kristallnacht's orgy of anti-Jewish violence. In the foreword to the volume, he applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day: 'On November 10, 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.' The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words 'of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.'"
No apologist can claim that Martin Luther bore his anti-Jewishness out of youthful naivete', uneducation, or out of unfounded Christianity. On the contrary, Luther in his youth expressed a great optimism about Jewish conversion to Christianity. But in his later years, Luther began to realize that the Jews would not convert to his wishes. His anti-Jewishness grew slowly over time. His logic came not from science or reason, but rather from Scripture and his Faith. His "On the Jews and Their Lies" shows remarkable study into the Bible and fanatical biblical reasoning. Luther, at age 60 wrote this dangerous "little" book at the prime of his maturity, and in full knowledge in support of his beliefs and Christianity.
Few people today realize that Luther wrote 'On the Jews and Their Lies.' (He also wrote such works like "Against the Sabbatarians.") Freethinkers should become aware of the anti-Semitic influence that Luther has brought on the world. His vehement attack on Jews and his powerful influence on the believers of the Germans has brought a new hypothesis to mind: that the Jewish holocaust, and indeed, the eliminationist form of anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany may not have occurred without the influence from Luther's book "On the Jews and Their Lies."
Part Four:
Walter Buch, the head of the Nazi Party court, admitted Luther's influence on Nazi Germany:
When Luther turned his attention to the Jews, after he completed his translation of the Bible, he left behind "on the Jews and their Lies" for posterity.
-cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]
Many people confess their amazement that Hitler preaches ideas which they have always held.... From the Middle Ages we can look to the same example in Martin Luther. What stirred in the soul and spirit of the German people of that time, finally found expression in his person, in his words and deeds.
-"Geist und Kampf" (speech), Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]
Hans Hinkel, a Nazi who worked in Goebbels' Reich Chamber of Culture said:
Through his acts and his spiritual attitude he began the fight which we still wage today; with Luther the revolution of German blood and feeling against alien elements of the Volk was begun.
-cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich
Erich Koch, the Reich Commissioner for Ukraine and President of the East Prussian Protestant Church Synod wrote:
Only we can enter into Luther's spirit.... Human cults do not set us free from all sin, but faith alone. With us the church shall become a serving member of the state.... There is a deep sense that our celebration is not attended by superficiality, but rather by thanks to a man who saved German cultural values.
-Konigsberg-Hartungsche Zeitung, 20 Nov. 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]
Bernhard Rust served as Minister of Education in Nazi Germany. He wrote:
Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance.... I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp [Schrot und Korn].
-Volkischer Beobachter, 25 Aug. 1933, [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]
Hans Schemm became Bavarian Minister of Education and Culture. Throughout the Reich, Germans particularly knew Schemm for his slogan, "Our religion is Christ, our politics Fatherland!" He writes:
His engagement against the decomposing Jewish spirit is clearly evident not only from his writing against the Jews; his life too was idealistically, philosophically antisemitic. Now we Germans of today have the duty to recognize and acknowledge this.
-"Luther und das Deutschtum," Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf (19 Nov. 1933: Berlin), [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]
Our confession to God is a confession of a doctrine of totality.... To give ultimate significance to the totalities of race, resistance and personality there is added the supreme totalitarian slogan of our Volk: "Religion and God." God is the greatest totality and extends over all else.
-(Gertrud Kahl-Furthmann (ed.), Hans Schemm spricht: Seine Reden und sein Werk (Bayreuth, 1935), [cited from Richard Steigmann-Gall's The Holy Reich]
Part Five:
Julius Streicher (one of Hitler's top henchmen and publisher of the anti-Semitic Der Sturmer) was asked during the Nuremberg trials if there were any other publications in Germany which treated the Jewish question in an anti-Semitic way., Streicher put it well:
"Dr. Martin Luther would very probably sit in my place in the defendants' dock today, if this book had been taken into consideration by the Prosecution. In the book 'The Jews and Their Lies,' Dr. Martin Luther writes that the Jews are a serpent's brood and one should burn down their synagogues and destroy them..."
Indeed, no historian has yet to put Martin Luther on trial for his incitement of crimes against humanity.
Today, white-supremacists and Neo-Nazis continue to spread Luther's Jewish hatred and use quotes from this book as "proof" of their convictions. I trust that readers will see the horror and danger of Luther's book and will realize the potential threat that might come from belief in
If you wish to read the entire unabridged book online, click here.
The following gives a few quotations from Luther's dirty little book:
Part Six:
Quotes from Martin Luther's "On the Jews and their lies," 1543
Luther's Introduction:
I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
He did not call them Abraham's children, but a "brood of vipers" [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, "He has a demon' [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord also calls them a "brood of vipers"; furthermore in John 8 [:39,44] he states: "If you were Abraham's children ye would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil. It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools...
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
...their blindness and arrogance are as solid as an iron mountain.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Learn from this, dear Christian, what you are doing if you permit the blind Jews to mislead you. Then the saying will truly apply, "When a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into the pit" [cf. Luke 6:39]. You cannot learn anything from them except how to misunderstand the divine commandments...
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Part Seven:
Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery, as arch-thieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
However, they have not acquired a perfect mastery of the art of lying; they lie so clumsily and ineptly that anyone who is just a little observant can easily detect it.
But for us Christians they stand as a terrifying example of God's wrath.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
If I had to refute all the other articles of the Jewish faith, I should be obliged to write against them as much and for as long a time as they have used for inventing their lies-- that is, longer than two thousand years.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
...Christ and his word can hardly be recognized because of the great vermin of human ordinances. However, let this suffice for the time being on their lies against doctrine or faith.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Alas, it cannot be anything but the terrible wrath of God which permits anyone to sink into such abysmal, devilish, hellish, insane baseness, envy, and arrogance. If I were to avenge myself on the devil himself I should be unable to wish him such evil and misfortune as God's wrath inflicts on the Jews, compelling them to lie and to blaspheme so monstrously, in violation of their own conscience. Anyway, they have their reward for constantly giving God the lie.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
...but then eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!
Part Eight:
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Over and above that we let them get rich on our sweat and blood, while we remain poor and they such the marrow from our bones.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule-- if my counsel does not please your, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews, lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, this dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us. . . . With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my conscience.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
However, we must avoid confirming them in their wanton lying, slandering, cursing, and defaming. Nor dare we make ourselves partners in their devilish ranting and raving by shielding and protecting them, by giving them food, drink, and shelter, or by other neighborly acts...
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Therefore we Christians, in turn, are obliged not to tolerate their wanton and conscious blasphemy.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:
First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...
Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...
Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...
Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it...
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
He who hears this name [God] from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. For our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Part Nine:
...they remain our daily murderers and bloodthirsty foes in their hearts. Their prayers and curses furnish evidence of that, as do the many stories which relate their torturing of children and all sorts of crimes for which they have often been burned at the stake or banished.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
...that everyone would gladly be rid of them.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Undoubtedly they do more and viler things than those which we know and discover.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
If I had power over the Jews, as our princes and cities have, I would deal severely with their lying mouth.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
They [rulers] must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did...
If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian (who in any case has no desire to become a Jew) with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews, but also to become the foe of the Jews' malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils. May Christ, our dear Lord, convert them mercifully and preserve us steadfastly and immovably in the knowledge of him, which is eternal life. Amen.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Addendum: a note to critics
Because of my pointed aim at revealing the anti-Jewishness of Martin Luther, I have received accusations that I've unfairly painted Luther in a bad light over the alleged "good" he's done in the name of Christianity. I want to briefly make clear my position on this.
Although I can certainly understand, from a perspective of a Protestant, Luther appears to have freed believers from the dependency of an orthodox hierarchy of God-Church-Man, and promoted the vaunted ideals of Christianity, I cannot imagine a more circular argument based entirely on superstitious beliefs. Nor has Luther's Protestantism shown a freeing effect on the lives of its believers when you take account of the paranoid-like protection of its tenets, the theologically based justification of war, cruelty against enemies, and the reliance on faith in place of scientific reasoning.
However, I fully grant that Luther, in his Ninety-Five Theses, may have called for the ending of indulgences and this, I think, could put him in some regard. (Note that although people generally believed that Luther nailed these theses to the door of Castle Church in Wittenberg, some scholars have questioned this story, which does not occur in any of his own writings). But on the evidence from his voluminous tomes, I can find little else to admire the works of this man.
Part Ten:
Undoubtedly they do more and viler things than those which we know and discover.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
If I had power over the Jews, as our princes and cities have, I would deal severely with their lying mouth.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
They [rulers] must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did...
If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian (who in any case has no desire to become a Jew) with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews, but also to become the foe of the Jews' malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils. May Christ, our dear Lord, convert them mercifully and preserve us steadfastly and immovably in the knowledge of him, which is eternal life. Amen.
-Martin Luther (On the Jews and Their Lies)
Addendum: a note to critics
Because of my pointed aim at revealing the anti-Jewishness of Martin Luther, I have received accusations that I've unfairly painted Luther in a bad light over the alleged "good" he's done in the name of Christianity. I want to briefly make clear my position on this.
Although I can certainly understand, from a perspective of a Protestant, Luther appears to have freed believers from the dependency of an orthodox hierarchy of God-Church-Man, and promoted the vaunted ideals of Christianity, I cannot imagine a more circular argument based entirely on superstitious beliefs. Nor has Luther's Protestantism shown a freeing effect on the lives of its believers when you take account of the paranoid-like protection of its tenets, the theologically based justification of war, cruelty against enemies, and the reliance on faith in place of scientific reasoning.
Part Eleven:
However, I fully grant that Luther, in his Ninety-Five Theses, may have called for the ending of indulgences and this, I think, could put him in some regard. (Note that although people generally believed that Luther nailed these theses to the door of Castle Church in Wittenberg, some scholars have questioned this story, which does not occur in any of his own writings). But on the evidence from his voluminous tomes, I can find little else to admire the works of this man.
Luther not only wrote 'On the Jews and their lies,' but also dubious and intolerant works such as 'Against the Sabbatarians', 'Against the Antinoman,' and 'Against the Robbing and Murdering Hordes of Peasants.' In the latter, Luther called for the stabbing and slaying of peasant rebels which triggered the death of an estimated 100,000 human beings. These rebels were not only Christians but were mostly slaughtered after their surrender to the German princes. Nor did Luther apologize for his treatise even after world criticism. In his response to his critics in "An Open Letter on the Harsh Book," Luther reiterated his venom: "Therefore, as I wrote then so I write now; Let no one have mercy on the obstinate, hardened, blinded peasants who refuse to listen to reason; but let everyone, as he is able, strike, hew, stab, and slay, as though among mad dogs, put to flight, and led astray by these peasants, so that peace and safety may be maintained." In all these harsh treatises, Luther provided an abundance of Biblical passages to justify his attack on his enemies. And, or course (sarcastically speaking), his actions were always through Christian "love" of his enemies, as he audaciously wrote: "The merciless punishment of the wicked is not being carried out just to punish the wicked and make them atone for the evil desires that are in their blood, but to protect the righteous and to maintain peace and safety. And beyond all doubt, these are precious works of mercy, love, and kindness. . ." [Bold characters, mine].
Most Christians staunchly defend their ideas of "true" Christianity (never seemingly to realize that other Christians have their own ideas, or if so, they get labeled as false Christians), but Luther had power and influence, and he vehemently opposed anyone who went against his version of True Christianity. One cannot deny Luther lived as a Christian, and an influential one at that. So to oppose him for practicing his brand of religion cannot serve to justify Christianity anymore than Oskar Schindler can be used to justify "true" Nazism, or neo-communists to justify Communism, or war to justify murder.
But perhaps the most lasting damage of all came from Luther openly advocating the abandonment of using natural reason (Luther considered his use of theological reasoning different from natural reason, i.e., scientific reasoning) . His theological message to live by faith and to abstain from listening to reason has mentally enslaved the lives of millions of Christians to this day. Throughout his literary life he wrote statements such as, "Whoever wishes to be a Christian, let him pluck out the eyes of his reason," "We must give reason a vacation and enter a different school. We must refrain from consulting reason. We must bid reason hold its peace; we must order it to be dead. We must gouge out its eyes and pluck its feathers...," "You must kill the other thoughts and the ways of reason or of the flesh, for God detests them." I can find no other influential writer who has spent as much ink, ad nauseum, against the very investigative tool which has kept the human species alive-- reason.
Part Twelve:
Therefore, I not only hold against Luther's Jewish hatred and his merciless attacks against his enemies, including Catholics, Protestant peasants, Turks, atheists, and infidels, but also because of his extraordinary intolerance, adherence to faith and superstition, unworkable morality, and his rejection of reason and science. I cannot imagine a man who has spread more dangerous beliefs than Martin Luther.
And no one should ever forget that his justification for these atrocious works came entirely from Christian Protestant beliefs fueled by the Bible. I don't know how Protestant Christians will react when faced with the realization of Luther's mad intolerance, but they will have to deal with the fact that this man stands as the Inventor and Creator of their Christian denomination.
The history of Luther provides just one example of why religion (not just Christianity), and ideology, whether it comes in the form of Buddhism, Judiasm, Islam, communism, Nazism, or any other belief system, creates the intolerant play against life and nature.
Sources:
Goldhagen, Daniel Johah, Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust , Alfred A. Knoph, NY, 1996
Luther, Martin, On the Jews and Their Lies, translated by Martin H. Bertram, Fortress Press, 1955
Shirer, William L., The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1960
Steigmann-Gall, Richard "The Holy Reich: Nazi conception of Christianity, 1919-1945," Cambridge University Press, 2003
Trial of The Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 14 November 1945-- 1 October 1946, Vol. 12, p.318
Hi Ray.
It's interesting to note that the Darwinist is quick to sieze upon evolutionary theory when it makes them seem more erudite and advanced than someone who adheres to Intelligent Design. Even more interesting is the hand-waving, excuse-making when it's clearly demonstrated where such thinking can lead as in the case of Hitler. Hitler described himself as a pagan. Anyone who wants to look up the 30 Point National Reich Church can see the pagan influence and efforts to replace fundamental aspects of Christianity. I don't know if anybody else brought this up so I just thought I'd throw it out there.
"The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advance of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble."
- Adolf Hitler, (transcribed by Martin Bormann) Hitler’s Secret Conversations 1941–1944 (H. R.
Trevor-Roper, Trans.), (New York, 1953), p. 49.
How many times have you heard something similar from the evolutionary co-religionists of Darwinism?
I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to accomplish from this. I could say that religion was a big cause of the Jim Jones Koolade-athon. People do horrible, horrible things in the name of religion all the time. I just need to point to Israel and the case is closed and locked.
@Ray
At least you admit the italics are added. That is more of a concession to honesty than I would expect. However knowing that and reading only what Hitler actually wrote it is apparent that he was not discussing evolution. In fact Adolph Hitler had no use for Darwin. Like creationists he believed in "microevolution" not "Macroevolution." He didn't call it that, he referred to it as things evolving within their own "kinds" which is essentially the creationist view. Hitler was very offended at the idea that we could have evolved from lower animals, much like creationists.
So you have just confused his belief. Adolph was not an evolutionist he was a creationist. I am sure if he had one creationism would be the core curriculum in science classes today.
Some more thoughts about the Jews from the father of Protestantism Martin Luther.
"Now behold what a fine, thick, fat lie they pronounce when they say that they are held captive by us. Jerusalem was destroyed over fourteen hundred years ago, and at that time we Christians were harassed and persecuted by the Jews throughout the world for about three hundred years, as we said earlier. We might well complain that during that time they held usChristians captive and killed us, which is the plain truth. Furthermore, we do not know to the present day which devil brought them into our country. We surely did not bring them from Jerusalem.
In addition, no one is holding them here now. The country and the roads are open for them to proceed to their land whenever they wish. If they did so,we would be glad to present gifts to them on the occasion; it would be good riddance. For they are a heavy burden, a plague, a pestilence, a sheer misfortune for our country. Proof for this is found in the fact that they have often been expelled forcibly from a country, far from being held captive in it. Thus they were banished from France (which they call *Tsorfath,* from Obadiah 20), which was an especially fine nest. Very recently they were banished by our dear Emperor Charles from Spain, the very best nest of all (which they called *Sefarad,* also on the basis of Obadiah). This year they were expelled from the entire Bohemian crownland, where they had one of the best nests, in Prague. Likewise, during my lifetime they have been driven from Regensburg, Magdeburg, and other places.
If you cannot tolerate a person in a country or home, does that constitute holding him in captivity? In fact, they hold us Christians captive in our own country. They let us work in the sweat of our brow to earn money and property while they sit behind the stove, idle away the time, fart, and roast pears. They stuff themselves, guzzle, and live in luxury and ease from our hard-earned goods. With their accursed usury they hold us and ourproperty captive. Moreover, they mock and deride us because we work and let them play the role of lazy squires at our expense and in our land. Thus they are our masters and we are their servants, with our property, our sweat, and our labor. And by way of reward and thanks they curse our Lord and us! Should the devil not laugh and dance if he can enjoy such a fine paradise at the expense of us Christians? He devours what is ours throughhis saints, the Jews, and repays us by insulting us, in addition to mocking and cursing both God and man."
Martin Luthers thoughts on Jews continued. Including how they lust for blood, murder Christian children and poison wells.
They could not have enjoyed such good times in Jerusalem under David and Solomon with their own possessions as they now do with ours, which they daily steal and rob. And yet they wail that we have taken them captive. Indeed, we have captured them and hold them in captivity just as I hold captive my gallstone, my bloody tumor, and all the other ailments andmisfortunes which I have to nurse and take care of with money and goods andall that I have. Alas, I wish that they were in Jerusalem with the Jews and whomever else they would like to have there.
Since it has now been established that we do not hold them captive, how does it happen that we deserve the enmity of such noble and great saints?We do not call their women whores as they do Mary, Jesus' mother. We do not call them children of whores as they do our Lord Jesus. We do not say that they were conceived at the time of cleansing and were thus born as idiots, as they say of our Lord. We do not say that their women are *haria,*, as they do with regard to our dear Mary. We do not curse them but wish them well, physically and spiritually. We lodge them, we let them eat and drinkwith us. We do not kidnap their children and pierce them through; we do not poison their wells; we do not thirst for their blood. How, then, do we incur such terrible anger, envy, and hatred on the part of such great and holy children of God?
There is no other explanation for this than the one cited earlier from Moses, namely, that God has struck them with "madness and blindness and confusion of mind." So we are even at fault in not avenging all this innocent blood of our Lord and of the Christians which they shed for three hundred years after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the blood of the children they have shed since then (which still shines forth from their eyes and their skin). We are at fault in not slaying them. Rather we allow them to live freely in our midst despite an their murdering, cursing, blaspheming, lying, and defaming; we protect and shield their synagogues, houses, life, and property In this way we make them lazy and secure and encourage them to fleece us boldly of our money and goods, as well as to mock and deride us, with a view to finally overcoming us, killing us all for such a great sin, and robbing us of all our property (as they dailypray and hope). Now tell me whether they do not have every reason to be the enemies of us accursed Goyim, to curse us and to strive for our final, complete, and eternal ruin!
Oh yes, Adolph was one 'crazed' mixed up individual. Facists share that same trait throughout history.
I found this bit of history at HISTORYPLACE.
Personally, I think Germany should have locked him up in the 'rubber' room, or gave him a lethal injection. It would have saved countless Jews and Christians.
"The next day, August 20, mandatory loyalty oaths were introduced throughout the Reich...
"Article 1. The public officials and the soldiers of the armed forces must take an oath of loyalty on entering service.
Article 2
1. The oath of loyalty of public officials will be:
'I swear: I shall be loyal and obedient to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich and people, respect the laws, and fulfill my official duties conscientiously, so help me God.'
2. The oath of loyalty of the soldiers of the armed forces will be:
'I swear by God this sacred oath: I will render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich and people, Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, and will be ready as a brave soldier to risk my life at any time for this oath.'
Article 3. Officials already in service must swear this oath without delay according to Article 2 number 1."
These oaths were pledged to Hitler personally, not the German state or constitution. And they were taken very seriously by members of the German Officers' Corps with their traditional minded codes of honor, which now elevated obedience to Hitler as a sacred duty and effectively placed the German armed forces in the position of being the personal instrument of Hitler.
(Years later, following the German defeat in World War Two, many German officers unsuccessfully attempted to use the oath as a defense against charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity.)
In September, 1934, at the annual Nuremberg Nazi Party rallies, a euphoric Hitler proclaimed,
"The German form of life is definitely determined for the next thousand years. The Age of Nerves of the nineteenth century has found its close with us. There will be no revolution in Germany for the next thousand years."
WRONG answer. The Berlin wall fell in the 1980s, and of course Hitler took his own life like a coward.
Crawled into a hole just like Sadamn Hussein. Pathetic!
More on Martin Luther and his hatred of Jews.
What are we poor preachers to do meanwhile? In the first place, we willbelieve that our Lord Jesus Christ is truthful when he declares of the Jews who did not accept but crucified him, "You are a brood of vipers and children of the devil [cf. Matt. 12:34]. This is a judgment in which his forerunner John the Baptist concurred, although these people were his kin.Now our authorities and all such merciful saints as wish the Jews well will at least have to let us believe our Lord Jesus Christ, who, I am sure, hasa more intimate knowledge of all hearts than do those compassionate saints. He knows that these Jews are a brood of vipers and children of the devil, that is, people who will accord us the same benefits as does their father, the devil, and by now we Christians should have learned from Scripture as well as experience just how much he wishes us well.
I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, madeassassinations, kidnaped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnaping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as wealready heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason I should like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christiansendure from these venomous serpents and young devils. Nor do the Jews treatany others as they do us Christians. That is what I had in mind when I saidearlier that, next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.
Now let me commend these Jews sincerely to whoever feels the desire to shelter and feed them, to honor them, to be fleeced, robbed, plundered, defamed, vilified, and cursed by them, and to suffer every evil at their hands -- these venomous serpents and devil's children, who are the most vehement enemies of Christ our Lord and of us all. And if that is not enough, let him stuff them into his mouth, or crawl into their behind and worship this holy object. Then let him boast of his mercy, then let him boast that he has strengthened the devil and his brood for further blaspheming our dear Lord and the precious blood with which we Christians are redeemed. Then he will be a perfect Christian, filled with works of mercy for which Christ will reward him on the day of judgment, together with the Jews in the eternal fire of hell!
@Ray
So basically Adolph Hitler believed things only evolved within their own kinds, He was offended at the idea of evolving from lower animals. Like the founder of protestant Christianity He hated Jews. He blamed them for all of his nations troubles and believed it was the duty of the government to get rid of them.
So why are you equating Hitler with evolution. He sounds more like a Christian creationist to me.
What's with the sudden Hitler obsessions?
You did it, I am convinced, Hitler said evolution so it must be wrong. Case closed.
Part 1
Here is an example of where facism and darwinism is corrupting our youth in America and taking away our liberties.
What is it about socialists, that makes them despise religion?
It seems that whenever a Socialists wins an election that gives them the ultimate power in a country, the first thing they try to do is remove religion as a force in that society.
Oh it's not done in a way that the people realize it is happening.
No, it's more covert and insidious in the way it is brought about. Usually it's done right under the noses of the very people who claim their ruler would never do such a thing.
In America, religious persecution by the government has been brewing for a few generations.
The shot over the bow of religion was fired by Hugo Black, a former Ku Klux Klan member appointed to the Supreme Court by FDR. In 1947 when Hugo Black wrote the majority opinion for Everson vs. Board of Education., he reinterpreted the meaning of the First Amendment of the Constitution by taking completely out of context a phrase used by President Thomas Jefferson in a letter he wrote to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802.
By using the phrase separation of church and state, in his opinion, Justice Black limited the religious liberty of all Americans.
Now after 62 years of constant government attack, Obama and Congress are about to take their godless agenda forward by disallowing college students the right to worship as they please.
Americans have been told that this is just a simple expansion of the national service programs.
However, if the truth is to be told, Obama plans to build a million youth movement, who's members will be denied their right to religious freedom.
Ray,
I believe you have just definitively proven that you and Hitler demonstrate the exact same understanding of evolutionary theory. That was your point, right?
Any theory can be misused or abused. Someone had posted the debate that Fred Phelps and John Rankin had on the question of "Does God hate homosexuals?"
I read the transcript of the debate and it wasn't clear to me who had won. I then listened to the audiofile and was then convinced that Fred Phelps had destroyed him. Had I been an impartial observer or judge, I'd have to award fiery Fred the win.
He quoted chapter and verse in support of everything he was saying. God hates. God hates man. God for sure hates homosexuals.
Now, I'm not speaking about the homosexuality part, you're way too astute to come out with a straight answer on this issue, but your belief in the inerrancy of the Bible clarifies your position on this and many other issues.
Doesn't rankle you at all that, to your mind, Phelps, people here, I and many others MISuse the Bible. Use the Bible to say or justify something which is exactly the opposite of what you believe and what you believe the intent of the Bible really is?
You're doing the same thing by trying to attempting to draw the conclusion "because Hitler and other monsters from history did and can misuse evolutionary theory, that.....
A) the theory is wrong
B) the theory shouldn't be studied
C) the theory shouldn't be taught
In one way, though, you actually make an argument for expanding teaching of the evolutionary theory; so it WON'T be misunderstood, misquoted, abused or used as justification for atrocious crimes and public policy.
You do realize that the Bible has been misused often in history to justify horrid, discriminatory policies & practices? The Nazis themselves sure did.
"The völkisch belief holds that humanity must have its ideals, because ideals are a necessary condition of human existence itself. But, on the other hand, it denies that an ethical ideal has the right to prevail if it endangers the existence of a race that is the standard-bearer of a higher ethical ideal. For in a world which would be composed of mongrels and negroids all ideals of human beauty and nobility and all hopes of an idealized future for our humanity would be lost forever.
On this planet of ours human culture and civilization are indissolubly bound up with the presence of the Aryan. If he should be exterminated or subjugated, then the dark shroud of a new barbarian era would enfold the earth.
To undermine the existence of human culture by exterminating its founders and custodians would be an execrable crime in the eyes of those who believe that the folk-idea lies at the basis of human existence. Whoever would dare to raise a profane hand against that highest image of God among His creatures would sin against the bountiful Creator of this marvel and would collaborate in the expulsion from Paradise."
Adolph Hitler Mein Kampf Volume 2, Ch. 1
Seems to me Hitler, in this passage, is misusing BOTH the ideas evolutionary theory and Christianity.
Maybe we shouldn't give too much weight to the ravings of a paranoid lunatic. We've already got Terry, isn't he enough?
Part 2
This Bill will for all intents and purpose combine JFK's Peace Corps and WJC's AmeriCorps with Obamas new 'Youth Brigades'.
The idea is to create a volunteer movement among the junior high, high school, and College aged youth of America. This movement will be a precursor of his larger plan for a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded as the U.S. military.
Obama’s plan begins with his requirement that anyone receiving school loans or who volunteer to serve at least three months as part of the brigade.
This all sounds fairley innocuous until you read the part of the bill that forbids any student in the program to participate in religious activities.
The exact wording from section 132A of HR 1388 is as follows. 'Engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of proselytization. '
In layman's terms that means, All members of the Corp are not allowed to attend church services of any kind and never are they to witness about their faith to others.
My biggest frustration in seeing this the law come about, is how the Republicans did not even attempted to stop or change this religiously poisonous Bill.
So with a stroke of his pen, Obama has told God to leave our children alone. Hitler did a similar thing when he told the church to worry about God and that he would take care of the people.
Now we could argue about whether Obama is a communist or if he is a facist, personally I do not see too much difference between the two philosophy's.
Eventually both destroy the will of men, because politically, both ideologies strive for an omnipotent, totalitarian, bureaucratic state. They also attempt to replace God with the state by contending that that man exists for the State.
Economically, communism abolishes private property, while fascism maintains it, but nationalizes the most important industries and the principal banks. (sound familiar?) When it come to religion, communism attempts to destroy all forms of religion.
Fascism on the other hand could care less about most religions, but will ands must destroy Christianity, because it is the only religion who's devout followers have proved through the years they will not reject their God.
That has been the greatest obstacle for those who have constantly tried to move America from capitalism to socialism.
The fathers of this great nation based the constitution upon the values derived from Christianity.
They started a tradition where they began all official government business with prayers to a Christian God. The children were raised to know and believe in the Christian God. For many years, the Bible was the only reading material in most of the schools of early America. Eventually, thanks to Hugo Black, the Bible, Christian literature, prayer and even the name of Christ have been banned from the schools our children attend.
Now, our children will be told they cannot even go to church as long as they are taking government money to go to school, or if they volunteer for Obama's 'Youth Brigade'.
Wake Up America! Unite Under GOD!
Pray for our nation.
God Bless America!!!
In His Love,
Terry Burton
1. I'm really not interested in any quotes made by Hitler. Do you have an actual point with all this, other then the attempt to show Steven was wrong? You don't BTW since I see no mention of Darwin, and he didn't say Hitler never mentioned evolution.
Maybe I just don't understand your point since you only put quotes in your post instead of adding your comments to it.
A Man may make a Remark—
In itself—a quiet thing
That may furnish a Fuse unto a Spark
In dormant nature—lain—
Let us deport—with skill—
Let us discourse—with care—
Powder exists in Charcoal—
Before it exists in Fire.
(Emily Dickinson)
What's your point Ray? So Hitler accepted Evolution, that makes no difference. He also believed in God, so he's just like you in some way.
You know Nazi scientists were the first to notice the link between smoking and lung cancer. Should I thank for that? I don't think so. In fact I raise my middle finger to do with fascism, political, religious or social.
Like Darwin, there's no doubt in my mind that he was racist. That doesn't detract from the scientific facts he noticed.
I'm an atheist, but that doesn't mean I necessarily agree with everything Dawkins, Hitchens or Shermer say, they're not my leaders. You have your invisible friend as a leader, but I prefer to think for myself.
Point one: none of these quotations depends on any of Darwin's ideas, or on anything later evolutionary biologists were saying. In most cases the word which is translated "evolution" could also be translated "development" or "progress."
The first quotation ("puling pacifists") has nothing to do with biological evolution; it's a defense of slavery as necessary to historical progress.
The second quotation ("it manifested itself as instinct") is an account of what Hitler calls "cultural evolution," and he assumes that acquired characteristics are inherited, so that one generation's practices become the next generation's "instincts." This is a Lamarckian idea, not a Darwinian one.
The third quotation ("the individual should be imbued with the spirit of sacrifice") again has nothing to do with biological evolution, only with cultural development. It does employ the naturalistic fallacy, that we should always do what "Nature" shows us, but we've seen that Darwin himself rejected that fallacy.
The fourth quotation ("organic life, organic evolution") yet again has nothing to do with biological evolution. It asserts that organizations should "evolve" -- which in the context simply means "grow" or "develop" -- "organically" instead of "mechanically." This dichotomy is a longstanding cliche of romantic thought, popularized by authors who wrote long before Darwin published a word.
The fifth quotation ("the stages that are necessary for its own evolution") is another example in which the word "evolution" simply means "development." Hitler talks here about how to organize a "National Socialist" state, and says it requires training men who will receive its message. Why would he have needed a book about biology to come to this conclusion? (You don't need to have read Origin of Species to use the word "cell" in the sense of "small unit".)
Point two: so what? If Hitler refers approvingly to evolution, what logical conclusion are we supposed to draw from this?
And before you answer that, consider the fact that any of us could draw up a longer list of Hitler quotes referring approvingly to God and religion.
Hitler was sure interested in evolution.
Ray, I think you are on to something...
Didn't Nazi soldiers have their belt-buckles adorned with the legend:
"Darwin Mitt Uns" ?
"Mike and Lizette's Travels and Thoughts said...
Hitler was sure interested in evolution."
Luther was sure interested in demonizing and killing the Jews.
Apologies for my poor memory and awful grasp of German.
The Nazi troops of course wore belt buckles proclaiming "Gott mit uns" ('God with Us'.
Bottom line is Ray, you don;t seem to have the remotest interest in what inspired Hitler and a population of church-going Germans to hate Jews as much as they did.
If you look up 'classical Anti-Semitism' and study it well, you will have a better grasp. Of course this hinges on the possibility that you will ever express the desire for honest enquiry, discourse and debate.
Terry,
You're concerned that Obama is going to take over the US with volunteer teenagers and college kids? That's what concerns you?
I want you to go to a high school near you, get permission, mind you, and call for volunteers to go do some sort of work. Make sure you let them know they'll be expected to put in a full day's work and won't be getting paid for it. You can have the subject of that work be anything you please; religious or not.
See how many show up. See what sorts show up. See for how long they'll show up and what they're capable of doing when they do show up.
If it came to a fight between the Girl Scouts and this bunch, my money's on the Girl Scouts. Have you seen them when they're selling their cookies? They can be downright vicious.
You're also concerned that college students won't be able to worship as they please? What, exactly, do you imagine most college students are doing at, say, 9:00am on a Sunday morning?
I was usually calling out to God and on my knees, but I don't think you could call what I was doing 'worshipping.' I was, however, often making offerrings at the porcelain altar.
I see the atheist like to quote mine in a vehement way, and in the same breath hatefully accuse Ray of quote mining. Hypocrits.
Here is a quote mine for you.
In fact, Luther reserved some of his choice invectives for his own people. He called Germans “brutal, furious savages,” compared them with monkeys aping everybody else. Germans, he said, were gluttons and boozers who should consider their frequent bouts of fever a medicine preventing them from drinking and eating themselves to death. He vilified Germans just as much as the Jews for rejecting the Gospel, predicting that God would punish them, too. “Deaf, blind and obdurate of
heart,” these shameful German despisers of the Gospel might as well give up all hope.
Of course, it was the Jews, not the Germans, who suffered the kind of fate Luther predicted for them— and worse. But does this make him the Nazis’ progenitor, as his detractors assert? Clearly not. Most of Luther’s anti-Jewish diatribes were forgotten until anti-Semites dug them up in the 20th century. To suggest that Lutheran theology turned Germans into Nazis is a false charge that simply cannot be substantiated by the facts. Nazism did not spring up in solidly Lutheran countries—such as Norway or Denmark— where under German occupation Christians, including the
king, pinned the Star of David on their own chests, out of solidarity with the Jews, and explicitly
appealed to Luther in their resistance against Hitler.
Nazism was born in Germany, a denominationally mixed country. Its founders were mainly lapsed
Catholics (not that I wish to blame Catholicism for this gruesome ideology cooked up by godless
minds). And three-fourths of all concentration camp commandants were Austrians—which means that they were raised as Catholics— according to Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal. Tragically, the ramblings of the sick father of the Reformation have caused many Protestants today to dismiss his greatest legacy—his theological realism. Of course we must reject what Luther said about the Jews, but this still leaves us with the liberating message of who we are as Christians: simul iustus et peccator, at the same time justified (by Christ) and sinners.
Gordon Rupp, a British Methodist theologian, had it right when he wrote about Luther: “I confess I am ashamed as I am ashamed of some letters of St. Jerome [and] some paragraphs in Sir Thomas More…,
and must say that their authors had not so learned Christ, and that, thank God, this is not the major part of what they had to say.”
by Siemon-Netto, Uwe. Lutheran Witness 123 (2004) No. 4:16-19.
I do not recant; "seldom" is not "never." Beyond that, "evolution" (German Entwicklung) is a word with multiple meanings: it can refer to the development of social institutions as well as to branching descent with modification. It can even refer to natural selection as opposed to adaption and speciation as consequences of natural selection.
I do not concede that any of these quotes refer to biological descent with modification, even if a couple of them mention biology (again, Entwicklung in German can also refer to what we call "development" of the individual from egg to adult). You do not show that Hitler mentioned Darwin, or spoke anywhere of one species giving rise to other species.
"Nobody else but puling pacifists can consider this fact as a sign of human degradation. Such people fail to recognize that this evolution had to take place in order that man might reach that degree of civilization which these apostles now exploit in an attempt to make the world pay attention to their rigmarole." Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitle .
This paragraph occurs in the middle of a chapter in which Hitler discusses everything from the need for autocratic government to the dangers of pacifism to, of course, the evils of the Jews. What he does not discuss, at all, is common descent or descent with modification. His point seems to be that pacifism is a luxury available only in powerful states that have become strong by winning wars: a point about social evolution (and arguably a confusion of natural selection with any form of selection or conflict).
"In our case this term has no meaning. Because everyone who believes in the higher evolution of living organisms must admit that every manifestation of the vital urge and struggle to live must have had a definite beginning in time and that one subject alone must have manifested it for the first time. It was then repeated again and again; and the practice of it spread over a widening area, until finally it passed into the subconscious of every member of the species, where it manifested itself as 'instinct.'" Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler .
This is interesting: Hitler is talking here about ideas, not genes, not about descent with modification but about ideas starting with one man and spreading until everybody holds those ideas, at least subconsciously. There is no mention of members of a species holding ideas because of selection effects on ancestral species.
Ray Comfort quoted some stuff by Hitler:
"For it is a necessity of human evolution that the individual should be imbued with the spirit of sacrifice in favour of the common weal, and that he should not be influenced by the morbid notions of those knaves who pretend to know better than Nature and who have the impudence to criticize her decrees." Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler .
Hitler, above, does not seem to agree with creationist apologists who hold that natural selection (the "decrees" of "Nature") should lead only to sociopathic selfishness with no concern for others. Of course, again, it's not at all clear that he's talking about humans descending from monkeys rather than about the development of higher levels of civilization within the human species.
"Organization is a thing that derives its existence from organic life, organic evolution. When the same set of ideas have found lodgment in the minds of a certain number of people they tend of themselves to form a certain degree of order among those people and out of this inner formation something that is very valuable arises. Of course here, as everywhere else, one must take account of those human weaknesses which make men hesitate, especially at the beginning, to submit to the control of a superior mind." Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler .
While Hitler refers here to "organic life" and "organic evolution," he speaks, again, only of the evolution of ideas, not the evolution of genes or organs or species: he is, again, exalting the idea that social order arises out of dictatorship by "the superior man," not about the origins of biological adaptions.
"But this principle can become a living reality only by passing through the stages that are necessary for its own evolution. These stages lead from the smallest cell of the State organism upwards. As its bearers and representatives, the leadership principle must have a body of men who have passed through a process of selection lasting over several years, who have been tempered by the hard realities of life and thus rendered capable of carrying the principle into practical effect." Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler .
There's a lot of biological imagery in the above paragraph, but again, it is crystal clear tht Hitler is referring to the development of state, not biological, organization, to the relationship between individuals and the society as a whole, not to the relationship between protists and multicellular organisms. "Its own evolution" is the political evolution of political state societies. There is, yet again, no mention of evolutionary trees, evolutionary ladders, monkey ancestors, etc.: there is the image of society developing as a body develops (an idea, of course, also found in Paul's image of the church).
Hitler declared himself to be doing God's Will in some way, as many dictators throughout history have done. Himmler, the Head of the SS, interestingly was obsessed with the occult, look up Wewelsburg Castle (the inspiration for Wolfenstein Castle) if you want to know.
Humans are moral creatures, and whosoever kills another under the excuse "I'm helping natural selection along" will be held just as responsible as someone who kills with the excuse "God told me to".
JD Curtis replied to Ray:
It's interesting to note that the Darwinist is quick to sieze upon evolutionary theory when it makes them seem more erudite and advanced than someone who adheres to Intelligent Design. .
I really think you have that backward. "Darwinists" are interested in how well theories explain and predict the evidence; it is the ID proponent who is interested in sounding erudite and "more advanced" when all he knows of biology are a few catch phrases about "irreducible complexity" and "information theory." ID lets you dismiss the work of thousands of scientists over a century and a half with a few references to half-understood press releases from Dembski and Behe, and pat yourselves on the back for supposedly being in the scientific avant-garde.
Even more interesting is the hand-waving, excuse-making when it's clearly demonstrated where such thinking can lead as in the case of Hitler. Hitler described himself as a pagan. Anyone who wants to look up the 30 Point National Reich Church can see the pagan influence and efforts to replace fundamental aspects of Christianity. I don't know if anybody else brought this up so I just thought I'd throw it out there.
"The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advance of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble."
- Adolf Hitler, (transcribed by Martin Bormann) Hitler’s Secret Conversations 1941–1944 (H. R.
Trevor-Roper, Trans.), (New York, 1953), p. 49.
How many times have you heard something similar from the evolutionary co-religionists of Darwinism? .
What a hyporite Hitler appears to have been; in public, he was constantly praising Christianity, and then in private he seems to have been some sort of French Revolutionary deist. Such revelations cannot have a good effect on his reputation for honesty.
However, your quote fails to make any particular point beyond that. Hitler doubtless thought that two plus two equalled four; this does not turn arithmetic into a racist totalitarian plot.
One cannot prove, merely by showing that Hitler exalted the "advance of science" over "the dogma of Christianity," that he actually accepted evolution. Certainly many of his closest associates had no use for Darwin or evolutionary theory (cf. Himmler's rejection of common ancestry with apes, or Nazi stormtroopers burning Darwin's books). There have been, historically, deist as well as theistic creationists.
Put that aside: one cannot prove, merely by showing that Hitler accepted evolution, that it actually inspired his political program or that he thought that evolutionary theory justified conquest and genocide.
Put that aside: if you can show that Hitler thought evolutionary theory justified his program, this does not prove that the theory did so. Hitler was a person of strong but eccentric and often contradictory views; you cannot assume that if he drew some implication from evolutionary theory, that evolutionary theory actually has those implications.
And, alas, let us suppose (contrary to fact) that Nazism and the Holocaust are in fact logical consequences of evolutionary theory. If so, so much the worse for the human race, as evolutionary theory appears to be correct. That you don't like its consequences does not mean that the theory is false.
But as I have argued elsewhere, evolutionary theory, on the one hand, implies that racism -- the idea that people are defined by their racial group -- is false, and is purely descriptive, offering no guidelines to how to organize society (you are probably thinking there is a contradiction there, but there is none: you cannot reason directly from "is" to "ought," and a scientific theory can only tell you that a certain idea is false, not that one ought not base a society on that idea).
Rufus, 12 part Book?
Over the last year you have posted so much GARBAGE and now out of the 'clear blue sky' ..you POST ...
A 12 Part Book on Ray's blog!!
Are you taking your meds from the VA center? Check the prescription.
Dementia seems to be prevalent in the atheist ranks these days.
Why don't you post that GARBAGE On your "firefly" blog .. that has been empty for years! Be considerate of rational beings.
Just some constructive criticism for a deceitful darwinist.
I'm sure the "Ray Distractors" blog would gobble up that filth.
Your religion is "witherin away" to NOTHING!
A sinking ship my friend.
I respect your service to our country .. BUT ..
Judgement Day is coming ( sooner than you think ) and you will be condemned. Your a condemned man.
Grab a life preserver ( Jesus Christ ) and beg His forgiveness!
His Wrath abides on you.
Yes indeed. "torment in the flames"
Have a Nice Weekend! Still praying for your repentance towards GOD.
In His Love,
Terry Burton
Hells Best Kept Secret video and audio on my blogs and webpage.
Terry Burton,
Thank you very much for the posts about Obama's plans for separating (even further) America's children from God.
At the same time, more and more immorality and perversion is being taught at earlier and earlier ages.
California courts have declared 1800 illegal "marriages" will stand as legal (even while upholding Prop 8). This will open the door to forcing parents to allow their babies (as young as five) to be exposed to things that they used to be able to protect them from at tender ages.
It's already started.
.
Here's the bottom line. The Bible strictly forbids murder, rape, theft, etc. Darwinism does not, nor does Darwinism attempt to define what is moral or not. Even Richard Dawkins admits that what we view as moral may change into something twisted, although he feels it's as unlikely as losing sexual appetities from contraceptives.
Terry,
The founding fathers did have prayers. Of course most of them were Masons. I'm sure you dislike that group, as well.
That sneaky George Washington. Running around with his stonemasons tool, apron and creepy all seeing eye. Trying to be the father of our country just to advance his not-so-secret-but-still-secret-but-you've-found-out-all-the-secrets-on-the-internet Freemason's agenda. He's not going to slip something past you. Way to be watching out for us, my friend.
Which way would you like it Terry, founding fathers perfect or founding fathers satanic?
Terry said:
"Here is an example of where facism and darwinism is corrupting our youth in America and taking away our liberties.
What is it about socialists, that makes them despise religion?"
Read what you wrote. You begin with an introduction that you'll be pointing out the evils of fascism (a POLITCAL theory saying how a state should be run) and darwinism (I assume you mean the SCIENTIFIC theory of evolution which is a theory explaining what has already happened and what continues to happen.).
You then launch into a tirade against socialists.
Socialism and fascism are similar, but have differences and are said to be products of opposite ends of the traditional political spectrum. Fascism is usually associated with the far right and does allow for private ownership of property and even the means of production, but is also said to advocate complete control of, for instance, prices and wages.
Socialism is usually associated with the far left and to varying degrees restricts private ownership especially of the means of production. Free market forces do exist in some socialist countries, however.
In both of them leaders can be elected by popular vote, however, in both of types of governments which have existed this is not always the case.
America is, in some ways, a socialist country already. All modern nations have seen that it is impractical, inefficient and short-sighted to be all of anything.
Modern economic theory advocates a mix of traits. The secret isn't in saying "My/This system is the BEST system and should be the ONLY one we use," but rather "Which MIX of systems helps our nation to achieve all of its disparate goals?"
You referred to the government purchasing a controlling interest in, for instance, the auto or bank industries as somehow demonstrating that Obama desires total control. I would submit that neither he nor any other sitting president WANTED to do this, but felt it was one of those LEAST BAD options to avoid massive layoffs and bankruptcy. They didn't avoid this, just managed to throw more money we don't have at the problem. Your argument seems to be that now that Obama has control of several failing companies he's in a better position to do what, exactly?
My personal philosophy is that free markets without bankruptcy is like religion without hell. Why prop up a failing business with our children's money? Do you have some special insight that will take it from failing to successful? If you did, then why are you in government and not in the automotive industry?
I don't see Obama's (I'd submit that ANY president of ANY party would have done the same) move as insidious, just dumb.
Actually, just for the sake of argument, let us say that Hitler did it FOR the theory of gravity, he loathed all the Jews, and he simultaneously loved Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein and the Theory of Gravity so much, he wanted to symbolize the rabid extermination of all the Jews in the form of some crude occult homage to the Theory of Gravity. If we suppose this, and Hitler hence made sure every Jews death was a consequence of the law of gravity, i.e. being thrown off a cliff, being dropped headfirst down a well, being crushed by a rock dropped from the sky etc, let me ask you this, and I really hope you will answer me:MOJO, your argument isn't comparing apples to apples. Hitler killed because he believed the Jews were impeding natural selection. For your example to work, Jews would have to impede gravity.
Its ALL about JESUS!!! said:
Obama’s plan begins with his requirement that anyone receiving school loans or who volunteer to serve at least three months as part of the brigade.
This all sounds fairley innocuous until you read the part of the bill that forbids any student in the program to participate in religious activities.
The exact wording from section 132A of HR 1388 is as follows. 'Engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of proselytization. ' .
Terry, the exact wording from section 132A that you quoted is a sentence fragment. It lists a series of worship-related activities, and says nothing about them. Based only on what you've said, you might just as well assume that members of these volunteer brigades will be required to do all these things.
But in point of fact I think the quoted section has to do with spending stimulus money: it cannot be spent on any of these activities. This has been criticized by some people saner than you are: many universities (which will be receiving wagonloads of freshly-printed cash) allow various student religious groups to use university facilities for worship or religious study, and it's not clear whether, e.g. the campus Christian group could continue to use a building for Bible study once it had been refurbished using stimulus funds.
If stimulus funds pay for a building that is used (say, one or two nights a week) for religious meetings, but is not primarily used for such purposes or for any mandatory worship services, is this permitted? There's probably a lawsuit over this issue in the future.
But nothing in this prohibits anyone, whether the campus Christian group or the members of the youth brigades, from worshipping in local churches, studying their Bibles and praying privately or in groups in private homes, etc.
Neither volunteers nor you are being asked to give up all religious activities.
@ Lamar, No profile
- atheist 'Spook'
You said
"Maybe we shouldn't give too much weight to the ravings of a paranoid lunatic. We've already got Terry, isn't he enough? "
Who believes in life from a 'rock'?
Who believes we came from slime?
Who refuses to believe in an Intelligent Designer ?
Who claims we were 'seeded' from a distant galaxy?
Who in their RIGHT mind believes that BILLIONS of years ago a 'big bang' occurred out of Nothing?
dale once told me " we don't know and neither do you !! "
The only problem dale ...
its not my belief!
You subscribe to that LIE.
I see the complex engineering in God's creatures and I marvel at it!
I see the 'painting' in the stars and I know there is a PAINTER!
Ray, with all due respect I think you need to change the name of your blog to "Lunatic Central".
Just a thought Brother! :)
Have a great weekend.
I rest my case 'corrupt' con-men of the 21st century. I stand against your lies, corruption, and I boldly tell you this:
May GOD have mercy on your souls! His Wrath abides on you. You will NOT escape His JUSTICE.
Your destination is the
Lake of Fire which burns for eternity.
His Holy Word tells us your punishment!
Revelation, Chapter 20:11-15
'White Throne Judgment'
" 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
REPENT, REPENT, REPENT !!! you brood of vipers.
John 3:16-18, and learn the sinners prayer in Psalm 51.
@Mike and Lizette:
You are welcome to show me how quotes from Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies" are out of context. Please show how they mean something different when they are "in context". Please show where he wrote things like that about the German people. Thank you.
@ Lamar, "what does that concern you?"
Lamar,
The Obama Youth are mostly the inner city kids, and the dregs of society in the big cities.
If you read from the conservative websites you will get the real story on this. CNN, MSN, FOX are not covering it that well.
IF you read the recent legislation you would know as well.
Suggest you contact your local congress person or representative or do a GOOGLE for your rep. :)
WORLDVIEWWEEKEND has some good coverage, hope that helps! :)
HAVE A NICE WEEKEND !
MOJO said...
There is a gaping hole in your logic Ray, as usual.
If Hitler really did base his philosophy on "Kill the weak, only the strong can survive", which he sort of did in his own perverted sense, how does this in any way reduce the credibility of the Theory of Evolution?
Let us say Hitler decided to kill all the Jews by having them catapulted off cliffs, falling to their deaths, and in his speeches he made some passing references to the act of gravity, which in it's divine retribution, saw to it that every Jew was exterminated with extreme prejudice by its unspeakable wrath in the form of terminal velocity force.
Actually, just for the sake of argument, let us say that Hitler did it FOR the theory of gravity, he loathed all the Jews, and he simultaneously loved Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein and the Theory of Gravity so much, he wanted to symbolize the rabid extermination of all the Jews in the form of some crude occult homage to the Theory of Gravity. If we suppose this, and Hitler hence made sure every Jews death was a consequence of the law of gravity, i.e. being thrown off a cliff, being dropped headfirst down a well, being crushed by a rock dropped from the sky etc, let me ask you this, and I really hope you will answer me:
DOES THIS MAKE THE THEORY OF GRAVITY UNTRUE?
I await a reply Ray.
No that does not make the theory of gravity untrue. It also does not make the theory of evolution untrue. What makes the theory of evolution untrue is that it is a false theory. You cannot prove it true. And people have been trying for more then 150 years. You will not prove it to be true. False is false, and evolution is false.
Don't like that logic? Then by all means worship in your false religion called evolution/science.
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders.
- Adolf Hitler
Ray, let's make a deal. I won't hold Hitler out as any kind of authority on Christianity if you summon the decency to stop holding him out as having understood evolution.
We can both pore over his quotations and find what we want to use to disparage one another, but the bottom line is that he was a maniac distorting whatever ideas he encountered in order to advance his wicked agenda.
"God be with our Fuhrer,
May God bless his hand,
God protect our Germany
our deeply loved fatherland."
Lyrics from a song written during Hitlers reign.
Its ALL about JESUS !!! said...
@ Lamar, "what does that concern you?"
Lamar,
The Obama Youth are mostly the inner city kids, and the dregs of society in the big cities.
Terry,
Please let me understand what you're saying. Children who are the product of single-parent homes, all who are economically disadvantaged and everyone who lives in cities because they're unwilling or unable to move to the suburbs are the "dregs of society?"
I wanted to be clear on that. And how many of them, do you think, are going to volunteer to take over the US for no pay?
By the way, as someone who served in the Army, I can tell you that some of America's best and brightest serve our country. I personally am not going to lose sleep over their ability to defeat ANY army on the planet, even one made up of the "dregs of society."
How unbelievably christian of you. I hope you, too, have a wonderful weekend. I hope you see and interact with as few of the dregs of society as possible. Watch out for the black helicopters.
@ Mike & Lizette:
Selecting representative antisemitic quotations from an antisemitic text called "On the Jews and Their Lies" isn't quotemining.
Unless you're prepared to argue that Martin Luther did not have particular hostility for Jews (a position you'd have a hard time defending), you have to admit that the quotations represent Luther's unrestrained hatred for them.
According to Christian theology, Luther was proud to commit murder in his heart, and if there's a hell we can all assume he's being punished there along with Hitler and most of Hitler's victims.
Ray is obsessed again.
Pity he isn't obsessed with honesty or the truth.
How about coughing up that Dawkins video you pretend you have?
It's a good thing Christians are changed people and never sin. They are such a good example to us non-believers.
No that does not make the theory of gravity untrue. It also does not make the theory of evolution untrue. What makes the theory of evolution untrue is that it is a false theory. You cannot prove it true. And people have been trying for more then 150 years. You will not prove it to be true. False is false, and evolution is false.
Go to the Talk origins archive or the Berkely site on evolution and learn something.
You can brainlessly rant all you want, but the evidence is on the side of science.
@starbuck--
What makes the theory of evolution untrue is that it is a false theory. You cannot prove it true. And people have been trying for more then 150 years. You will not prove it to be true. False is false, and evolution is false.
Don't like that logic? Then by all means worship in your false religion called evolution/science.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So far we've had Ray insist that the theory of evolution is a fairy tale for grownups and that nobody has been able to provide proof for it.
I provided proof from endogenous retroviruses. Ray said he didn't even have to reply to this evidence, and he didn't.
Next we had Keith insist there is no evidence for evolution. When I provided the same evidence to him that I did to Ray, Keith replied that ERVs are not evidence of evolution, but later admitted he didn't even know what ERVs are.
Then we had somebody named carl call evolution a "two-bit lie." When I presented him with ERV evidence for evolution, carl announced that he had to start his weekend and that was that.
And now we come to you. You called evolution a "false theory" and insisted no one can ever prove it true. So--What about endogenous retroviruses? Why don't ERVs provide conclusive proof of common ancestry?
And finally, do you claim to understand evolution better than the head of the Human Genome Project? Because he's under the impression that evolution is true:
"As someone who's had the privilege of leading the human genome project, I've had the opportunity to study our own DNA instruction book at a level of detail that was never really possible before.
It's also now been possible to compare our DNA with that of many other species. The evidence supporting the idea that all living things are descended from a common ancestor is truly overwhelming.
I would not necessarily wish that to be so, as a Bible-believing Christian. But it is so. It does not serve faith well to try to deny that."So--Please explain why the head of the Human Genome Project doesn't know what he's talking about.
I expect this will be a short conversation.
But you failed to answer the question.
When did 'act dumb and dishonest' become the greatest of the commandments?
Brian in VA said...
Here's the bottom line. The Bible strictly forbids murder, rape, theft, etc. Darwinism does not, nor does Darwinism attempt to define what is moral or not. Even Richard Dawkins admits that what we view as moral may change into something twisted, although he feels it's as unlikely as losing sexual appetities from contraceptives.
The mistake you are making is thinking that evolution is a philosophy that can take the place of a religion. Evolution can not do that. Nor can all of science give moral instruction. It is not the purpose of science.
I don't think we need the Bible to tell us murder is wrong because other societies have seemed to figure it out without the Bible. Paul even notes how Gentiles have some of the same morals as Jews without ever hearing the Law.
I am not sure that every society has a term for theft because I am not sure that every society has the idea of personal property, but again many societies have figured out that theft is wrong even without the Bible.
I am not sure how strictly the Bible forbids rape, but I am glad to hear you also agree it is wrong.
I don't know what you mean by our morals changing into something twisted, and I can't find what Dawkins said. But I don't think you need Richard Dawkins to point out that our morals change. Throughout history and cultures, haven't the morals changed in society? Some people still find interracial marriage as "something twisted."
Haven't the morals changed in the Bible? I know Jesus and His sacrifice changed everything, but still the morals of the New Testament are changed from the Old Testament, right?
Terry,
This is the entire amended section 132 of HR 1388, the bill you refered to. It is standard, boilerplate language on all bills expending public funds. Please read it all and stop believing any lunatic, paranoid rantings from biased sources. Left or Right.
‘(a) Prohibited Activities- An approved national service position under this subtitle may not be used for the following activities
‘(1) Attempting to influence legislation.
‘(2) Organizing or engaging in protests, petitions, boycotts, or strikes.
‘(3) Assisting, promoting, or deterring union organizing.
‘(4) Impairing existing contracts for services or collective bargaining agreements.
‘(5) Engaging in partisan political activities, or other activities designed to influence the outcome of an election to Federal office or the outcome of an election to a State or local public office.
‘(6) Participating in, or endorsing, events or activities that are likely to include advocacy for or against political parties, political platforms, political candidates, proposed legislation, or elected officials.
‘(7) Engaging in religious instruction, conducting worship services, providing instruction as part of a program that includes mandatory religious instruction or worship, constructing or operating facilities devoted to religious instruction or worship, maintaining facilities primarily or inherently devoted to religious instruction or worship, or engaging in any form of proselytization, consistent with section 132.
‘(8) Consistent with section 132, providing a direct benefit to any--
‘(A) business organized for profit;
‘(B) labor union;
‘(C) partisan political organization;
‘(D) nonprofit organization that fails to comply with the restrictions contained in section 501(c) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, except that nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to prevent participants from engaging in advocacy activities undertaken at their own initiative;
‘(E) organization engaged in the religious activities described in paragraph (7), unless the position is not used to support those religious activities.
‘(9) Providing abortion services or referrals for receipt of such services.
‘(10) Conducting a voter registration drive or using Corporation funds to conduct a voter registration drive.
‘(11) Carrying out such other activities as the Corporation may prohibit.
‘(b) Ineligibility- No assistance provided under this subtitle may be provided to any organization that has violated a Federal criminal statute.
‘(c) Nondisplacement of Employed Workers or Other Volunteers- A participant in an approved national service position under this subtitle may not be directed to perform any services or duties, or to engage in any activities, prohibited under the nonduplication, nondisplacement, or nonsupplantation requirements relating to employees and volunteers in section 177.’.
Ray,
I am glad you think the actions of Hilter were decisively evil. The genocide of a people based on their skin colour, religion, or nationality is a horror that should never see the light of day.
This being the case, you should also be condemning your God for killing all life on the planet in a global flood, raining fire onto cities, drowning armies in the Red Sea, murdering the first born of an entire nation, continually helping his people to victory in bloddy wars, demanding sacrifices as payment for his assistance, sending plagues of locusts, droughts, and finally mudering his own son so that we might escape the curse he himself imposed. Will you do this?
No that does not make the theory of gravity untrue. It also does not make the theory of evolution untrue. What makes the theory of evolution untrue is that it is a false theory. You cannot prove it true. And people have been trying for more then 150 years. You will not prove it to be true. False is false, and evolution is false.
Don't like that logic? Then by all means worship in your false religion called evolution/science.
That looks like fun, let me try..
What makes the bible untrue is that it is a false faith. You cannot prove it true. And people have been trying for many, many years. You will not prove it to be true. False is false and the Bible is false.
Don’t like that logic? Then by all means worship in your false faith called the bible/Christianity.
I’m guessing the Christians won’t believe my claims, anymore then the people you were addressing would believe your claims.
It's all about Jesus said:
"The Obama Youth are mostly the inner city kids, and the dregs of society in the big cities."
Just when I don't think you could be more insulting, you prove me wrong, Terry.
How much of a bigot are you, Terry? And when are you going to stop copying and pasting entire arguments from some website and use your own? Does the site norcalblogs.com mean anything?
By the way, you wouldn't happen to have any of those silly "patriotic" ribbon magnets on the back of your vehicle, would you?
Here's the bottom line. The Bible strictly forbids murder, rape, theft, etc. Darwinism does not, nor does Darwinism attempt to define what is moral or not.
You’re right… since “Darwinism” isn’t a religion or a philosophy on how humans should live their lives… why would you compare it as such? When you say “Darwinism” you’re talking about a scientific explanation, not a guide for morality.
Brian in VA,
Does it make the Theory of Evolution untrue?
The point I am making is that Ray thinks he can magically reduce the Theory of Evolution by committing a well known logical fallacy called 'appeal to adverse consequences', i.e. he has probably accepted in his mind that no creationist has a reasonable argument against evolution, so he has resorted to trying to brand it some kind of occult religion which leads to nothing but murder and evil.
By the way, anyone who tries to discredit evolution by saying Hitler agreed with it is missing such a huge point it really isn't even worth mentioning:
Evolution by natural selection states how things ARE, it states what process GOT US HERE, it does not state HOW THINGS OUGHT TO BE!
Grow up creationists.
Starbuck,
Why do creationists such as yourself continue to be in blatant denial of such obvious facts?
You do not study evolution as a career yet you feel qualified to criticize evolutionary biologists who have put in all the hard work and research, gone through peer review, gathered the scientific data, published reports in scientific journals, alot of them bible believing Christians by the way. Why is it that 99.999999% of evolution doubters are usually fundamentalist believers in the bible??!?!?!
IF evolution really was a theory in crisis, it would be coming under heavy criticism from all science, regardless of affiliation. Because that is how the scientific method works, it relies on heavy scrutiny from peers to advance its ideas as truth.
Rufus said... You are welcome to show me how quotes from Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies" are out of context. Please show how they mean something different when they are "in context". Please show where he wrote things like that about the German people. Thank you.
Take it up with Siemon-Netto about your quotes.
Brian in VA said:
Here's the bottom line. The Bible strictly forbids murder, rape, theft, etc. Darwinism does not, nor does Darwinism attempt to define what is moral or not. Even Richard Dawkins admits that what we view as moral may change into something twisted, although he feels it's as unlikely as losing sexual appetities from contraceptives. .
On the one hand, the Bible is hardly unique in forbidding murder, rape, theft, etc.: so did the Code of Hammurabi. So did the laws of the ancient Greeks and Romans, those of the Chinese and Hindus, etc. It would be much harder to find a religious or civil tradition that did not forbid such things than to find additional examples.
Of course, the Bible on occasion commands all these things (or, rather, records occasions when the ancient Israelites were commanded to do all these things). People who felt themselves guided by the Bible have waged wars against conquest (or, alternately, declared for strict pacifism), promoted or fought against chattel slavery, defended the accumulation of wealth or demanded a live of poverty. A person who thinks "biblical morality" is immune to change has not looked at history.
Nor is evolutionary theory unique in giving us no reason to refrain from such things: neither does atomic theory, or the ideal gas law, or Newtonian or Einsteinian physics. It seems rather odd to complain that a scientific theory does not address questions that scientific theories do not address.
I should point out that, like Ray, you are advancing an argument from bad consequences. Whether you'd like to believe something, or whether you would benefit from your neighbor believing something, has no obvious correlation with whether that something is true or false. Even if evolutionary theory has bad consequences, that is no reason to suppose it is wrong; even if biblical inerrancy has good consequences, that is no reason to suppose it is true.
Starbuck replied to MOJO:
What makes the theory of evolution untrue is that it is a false theory. You cannot prove it true. And people have been trying for more then 150 years. You will not prove it to be true. False is false, and evolution is false. .
First, you say that evolution has not been proved true, but make no claim that it has been proved false. Not everything that has not yet been proved true is false: when Aristarchus first suggested that the Earth orbits the sun, he had no proof; even when, two thousand years later, Copernicus revived this idea, Copernicus did not have proof. When Democritus first suggested that atoms existed, he had no proof, and even Dalton's evidence for atoms did not strike every scientist of the 19th century as "proof." So even if evolution has not been proved, you cannot therefore conclude that it must be false.
Second, while science doesn't really deal in "proof" (it deals in best inference from consilience of evidence), evolution is abundantly supported by many lines of evidence. From faunal succession in the fossil record (if evolution is false, why are no modern species found in Paleozoic or Mesozoic sediments?) to transitional fossils (if feathered theropods, legged whales, and upright-walking hominids with brain sizes intermediate between those of chimps and modern humans, aren't evidence predicted by evolution, what could be?), to shared endogenous retroviruses and pseudogenes in humans and other primates, the evidence for evolution is compelling, and creationists, rather than offer actual explanations for it, prefer to lie about it or ignore it.
Evolution is as "proved" as the thesis that the Earth orbits the sun or that matter is made up of atoms.
Third, if, as you concede, it is irrelevant to the facticity of evolutionary theory whether Hitler accepted it, why do you not at least point out to Ray that his recent posts are irrelevant? Indeed, if you are so keen on truth, you might go so far as to point out that they are irrelevant and false, as Hitler does not in fact seem to have understood or accepted the major claims of evolutionary theory.
Brian in VA replied to MOJO:
MOJO, your argument isn't comparing apples to apples. Hitler killed because he believed the Jews were impeding natural selection. For your example to work, Jews would have to impede gravity. .
I could point out that this is a deranged understanding of natural selection, but you have not claimed otherwise. I could point out that nothing in evolutionary theory implies that we ought to (or even can) promote "natural" selection, but again, you have not claimed otherwise. All you have claimed is that Hitler's campaign against the Jews was based on his understanding of natural selection. I submit, though, that even this is questionable.
Hitler gave some of his reasons for persecuting and killing Jews. In his reasons for enacting the Nuremberg Legislation, he said: "One of the principle reasons for the legislation in Germany is the necessity to combat Bolshevism. This legislation is not anti-Jewish, but pro-German. The rights of Germans are thereby to be protected against destructive Jewish influences.
… the Jews who formed less than one per cent. of the population tried to monopolize the cultural leadership of the people and flooded the intellectual professions, such as, for example, jurisprudence and medicine. The influence of this intellectual Jewish class in Germany had everywhere a disintegrating effect . For this reason in order to bar the spread of this process of disintegration it became essential to take steps to establish a clear and clean separation between the two races."Hitler, whenever discussing his views and actions towards the Jews, stressed, not the "fitness" of his society, but its purity, the need to avoid contamination by foreign cultures and values. Hitler did use biological analogies for this: e.g. he pointed out that foxes do not mate or live with non-foxes, in defense of the claim that such segregation should apply to human races as well as to nonhuman species. But this is not a claim about natural selection.
He did invoke something vaguely like natural selection in defense of the euthanasia program: the killing (eventually abandoned due to public protests) of the chronically ill, mentally retarded, and mentally ill. Still, however many appeals one may make to nature, [a] these things are artificial selection, such as had preceded Darwin, and [b] these were economic more than biological actions: such people were unlikely to breed in any case, but were likely to cost welfare dollars that Hitler would prefer to spend on other things, like conquering Europe. And Hitler, besides appealing to the cruelty of nature in weeding out the weak, openly appealed to the financial savings of not needing to run asylums or sanatoriums because there would be no chronically ill people.
Captain howedy,
Ages ago we had a little discussion about whether Israel was ever in Egypt. I have found a fascinating video on youtube about some archeologists and their discoveries regarding mount Sinai. Check it out because it is definately evidence.
You can see by getting the link on my blog.
- Evolution -
'A Weapon of Spiritual Warfare'
Most people think that evolution is a mere theory and a outlook on life for this planet.
If we look back in time we find a 'bitter man' who rebelled against his family, and his GOD.
Yes, I am speaking of Charles Darwin.
His family wanted him to be a pastor. He allowed the lusts of this world to creep in, and before you knew it, he was hating GOD in his heart.
Deep down inside he knew his theory was heresy and a bold face LIE but he allowed satan to have his way in his life.
He ignored the "inner light" which GOD has given every person. Yes, his conscience was working but the sin in his life prevailed.
Soon he was a outcast, and a embarassment to his family.
He turned to drugs but that did not help, it only made it worse.
satan used this to wage war on our GOD and to deceive the nations.
Yes, spiritual warfare against our own beloved Creator.
Those who lust for power and the things of this world embrace this teaching to advance their agendas.
He knew that this false teaching would pollute the minds of the young in the future and convince them they were mere animals with no souls.
IF they were mere animals with no souls, there is nothing to fear from GOD's wrath.
The falsehood continued as more and more people died in their sins. Some had good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with so called "good intentions".
In a way I have always felt sorry for Charles, but I realize he brought it all on himself.
He turned his back on GOD as Hitler turned His on GOD. As so many world leaders have done.
He turned away from GOD and His Son! He allowed satan and the evil of this world to dominate his life.
He had a choice and chose to shut out Jesus Christ.
Will you learn from his error in Judgment ? Time is growing short for this world.
Its not too late, GOD "so loved" the world that He gave His only Son for our sins. He died on the cross for our sins. REPENT of your sins and accept Him as your LORD.
He is willing and righteous to forgive all sins! Psalm 51 and John 3:16-18 will clue you in.
May GOD bless you in a Special Way this Sunday.
JESUS Loves You! Christians love you and we want to see you in heaven. The unthinkable is the alternative.
In His Love,
Terry Burton
Its ALL about JESUS!!! said:
Most people think that evolution is a mere theory and a outlook on life for this planet. .
I'm not sure what you mean by evolution as "an outlook for life," but in my experience most people who actually know something about the theory conclude that it cannot tell us how to order either our personal lives or our society, any more than quantum physics or the Big Bang can. A "mere theory" is a perfectly good thing for a testable explanation of a class of scientific data to be.
If we look back in time we find a 'bitter man' who rebelled against his family, and his GOD.
Yes, I am speaking of Charles Darwin.
His family wanted him to be a pastor. He allowed the lusts of this world to creep in, and before you knew it, he was hating GOD in his heart. .
Charles Darwin's father and grandfather were physicians, and neither were devout. The original plan was for Darwin to follow his progenitors into the medical profession, but he couldn't stand watching, much less performing, surgery. The ministry was considered a respectable alternative (it was Church of England, so actually believing anything in particular was not necessary); the main thing was that they wanted him to have some sort of respectable occupation to which his scientific researches would be a hobby and sideline. After the voyage of the Beagle, his father decided that "scientist" was respectable enough by itself.
Side note: Charle's paternal grandfather, Erasmus Darwin, was, aside from being a noted physician and afficionado of fine dining, known as the "English Lamarck" (after the French biologist who, in the late 18th century, was one of the first evolutionary theorists). His father worried about the impact on his married life of his religious and scientific ideas; he didn't find those ideas inherently false or disgusting.
Deep down inside he knew his theory was heresy and a bold face LIE but he allowed satan to have his way in his life.
He ignored the "inner light" which GOD has given every person. Yes, his conscience was working but the sin in his life prevailed.
Soon he was a outcast, and a embarassment to his family.
He turned to drugs but that did not help, it only made it worse. .
An outcast? He married into one of the richest, most respectable families in England, he corresponded with the greatest scientists in his day, and he ended up buried in Westminster Abbey not far from Isaac Newton. If that is your definition of "outcast," one wonders what your criterion for "social success" would look like. I have read nothing about either personal scandals in his life or about him turning to drugs, except for what you have written. You apparently know things about him that professional biographers who've researched his life for decades have not learned.
It seems unlikely that Darwin thought his theory was "a lie." It was abundantly supported by evidence, even in his day, albeit not nearly so much evidence (fossil, comparative-anatomical, genetic, etc.) as has accumulated since he proposed it.
Again, Terry, you are clearly wrong when you discuss matters that can be easily checked; why should we assume you are right when you discuss matters beyond human investigation?
Any day now, Terry.
lol! "Act dumb and dishonest." Obviously the atheists' greatest commandment.
@Da Bomb--
Captain howedy,
Ages ago we had a little discussion about whether Israel was ever in Egypt. I have found a fascinating video on youtube about some archeologists and their discoveries regarding mount Sinai. Check it out because it is definately evidence.
You can see by getting the link on my blog.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks--I'll look it over.
Da Bomb said:
"Ages ago we had a little discussion about whether Israel was ever in Egypt. I have found a fascinating video on youtube about some archeologists and their discoveries regarding mount Sinai. Check it out because it is definately evidence.
You can see by getting the link on my blog."
I checked out your blog. In it you said:
"Here is some archeological evidence for the reality of Mount Sinai, which then means the reality of the Bible, which then means the reality of God."
So...by your logic, the archaeological evidence for the reality of Mt. Olympus equates to the reality Homer's Odyssey, which then means the reality of Zeus?
I have an old blog post called "If Hitler was a Darwinist..." It turns out that if you go to a website (link on my blog) called “When books burn," an online exhibit sponsored by the University of Arizona Library, you'll find lists of books that the Nazis banned. On a page called "Lists of Banned Books, 1932-1939" you can page down to find this item 6 on the list of types of books Nazis wanted banned:
"Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel)."
They weren't saying there was a more primitive Darwinism - they were calling Darwin's "Darwinism" primitive compared to their own.
Look at any of the online English translations of Mein Kampf and you will find only one use of the word "evolution" and that is in a context which does not refer to biology, but to the development of political ideas in Germany: "This evolution has not yet taken the shape of a conscious intention and movement to restore the political power and independence of our nation." You will find no mention of Darwin. What you will find is this sentence: "For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities."
There's a reason Ray has to quote mine everyone but Hitler on evolution... Hitler had almost nothing to say about it.
Matt said:
"So...by your logic, the archaeological evidence for the reality of Mt. Olympus equates to the reality Homer's Odyssey, which then means the reality of Zeus?"
It's not just finding the mountain, it's what they found at the mountain that is evidence for the reality of God. That is what I meant.
Watch it before you compare it with other mountain findings :)
It's not just finding the mountain, it's what they found at the mountain that is evidence for the reality of God. That is what I meant.
To what, specifically, do you refer?
Da Bomb said:
"It's not just finding the mountain, it's what they found at the mountain that is evidence for the reality of God. That is what I meant."
You're repeating yourself. What did they find at the mountain that confirms the reality of Jehovah?
Alfred Nobel discovered TNT in in the 1860's. Does that mean we should deny the fact that TNT exists and blame Alfred Nobel for all the horrible things that have happened because of the explosive?
My quick review of the video Da Bomb has linked to on his blog...
The evidence is very sketchy as it was a very small group of people. A family that worked there and a couple of others who entered Saudi Arabia using forged documents. They went to a mountain they believe to be the real Mount Sinai.
They found some rocks with cows apparently etched on them, the mountain looks like the top has been burnt, a large rock that looks like it split in two (possibly the one water rushed out of) a cave, what looks like an alter with the remains of 12 pillars, and some rocks with footprints drawn on them (looked to me like it was done with chalk however).
For a skeptic it isn’t very compelling as there is no authorized access to the site, it’s blocked off by the Saudi’s and so it can’t be properly studied which is to bad if the video is true.
Christians would probably find the video’s to be very interesting, so I’d recommend they watch it, just don’t expect the skeptics to accept it as proof.
Da Bomb,
I have to admit, this video is compelling.
Da Bomb,
I've been doing some reading about Sinai. As compelling as the video you provided is, I have to say it's not an open and shut case for the Exodus.
Exodus 13:21-22 says:
"And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night; He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people."
Exodus 14:19-20 says:
"And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them; And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night."
And Exodus 19:16-18 says:
"And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled. And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly."
--------------------------------
A mountain with a dark cloud at the top? A pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night? Lightning and thunder coming from a mountain that was quaking? A cleft rock that spills forth water?
God? Nah. Try volcanic activity instead. Oh, and you might want to read about something called the kohanim blessing.
God? Nah. Try volcanic activity instead. Oh, and you might want to read about something called the kohanim blessing.
Ya, but they broke the rocks open and they were a different color inside (I'm skeptical BTW)
I hope the theory of evolution is enough to comfort the dying facing an unknown eternity.
The theory of Christ is that he is the way, the truth, and the life. He said if you can believe, you shall not perish but have ever lasting life.
Evolutionary theory will not feed your soul. What a purposeless way to live, and a hopeless way to die....when it becomes more of a religion than just a scientific theory.
When we loose God, we loose our freedom... to believe or not to believe. When the State decides that our rights are endowed...not by a Creator...but by a Government...all hope on Earth is lost forever. What the State gives, the State can take...but what God gives, is ours forever.
It's posts like that which just show how completely loony people can be.
I mean honestly it makes as much sense as..
I hope the atomic theory is enough to comfort the dying facing an unknown eternity.
Germ theory will not feed your soul.
Or how about....
I hope the Special Theory of Relativity is enough to comfort the dying facing an unknown eternity.
I mean do you have any idea how nonsensical you sound Poor Wilber?
Dimensio have look at it and find out.
Matt said,
"A mountain with a dark cloud at the top? A pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night? Lightning and thunder coming from a mountain that was quaking? A cleft rock that spills forth water?
God? Nah. Try volcanic activity instead. Oh, and you might want to read about something called the kohanim blessing."
I thought it was showed that they were not volcanic rocks. It was as though they were burnt from the outside but left the inside unburnt... and only on that mountain?
Thanks for watching the video :) I only want to spread the truth and help you guys find it! God bless!
More food for thought.
LOL Wilber, I have to agree with you, a scientific theory will not feed your soul... That would be the job for a religion or spiritual belief, not a a scientific theory ;)
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