What does your country’s flag mean to you? To the United States, the flag is very special because it symbolizes freedom. It is a country that is unique in that it calls itself "One nation under God." That means that it’s a nation where you can have the freedom to love God, or you can be an atheist and even be free to promote your atheism. That is very special.
The flag reminds us that we fought for our independence. It came with a price. Many died so that we could be free, and those who honor the flag honor their precious sacrifice.
The symbol of Christianity is a blood-stained cross. It reminds the Christian that he is free from the demands of Eternal Justice. There was a time when he was ignorant, foolish and deceived by sin. He didn’t understand his moral state before God. I look back on my pre-conversion state and remember how the Cross was meaningless to me. It was a foreign flag to which I had no allegiance.
But when the moral Law opened my eyes to its just wrath (see Matthew 5:27-28), I suddenly understood the sacrifice. I had violated God’s Law (the Ten Commandments), and 2,000 years ago Jesus paid my fine in His precious life's blood. He defeated death by rising on the third day. That meant that upon my repentance and faith in the Savior, God could and would legally commute my death sentence.
On the Day of Judgment the Law of God cannot condemn me, because my crimes against God no longer exist. They have been blotted out by the mercy of the Judge. I have independence from the power of death. Fine paid; case dismissed.
So when I hear someone despise or discount the Cross as meaningless, I know why they feel that way. They need understanding, and that's the reason for this blog. May you find independence from death today. Happy 4th of July.
Saturday, July 4, 2009
The Flag and Independence
114 comments:
Ray said,
"On the Day of Judgment the Law of God cannot condemn me, because my crimes against God no longer exist. They have been blotted out by the mercy of the Judge. I have independence from the power of death. Fine paid; case dismissed."
That's certainly not the picture of the Judgment Day that appears in Matthew 25, the story of the Sheep and the Goats. According to Jesus, salvation and condemnation hinge on whether a person performed charitable deeds toward those in need. There's none of this "fine paid; case dismissed" language.
Similarly, John 5:28-29 says that good and evil behavior will determine one's lot in the resurrection:
"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out -- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned."
The determining factor is whether a person has "done good" or "done evil." Isn't that plain enough?
"Hacksaw Duck said... Ray said,
'On the Day of Judgment the Law of God cannot condemn me, because my crimes against God no longer exist. They have been blotted out by the mercy of the Judge. I have independence from the power of death. Fine paid; case dismissed.'
That's certainly not the picture of the Judgment Day that appears in Matthew 25, the story of the Sheep and the Goats. According to Jesus, salvation and condemnation hinge on whether a person performed charitable deeds toward those in need. There's none of this 'fine paid; case dismissed' language.
Similarly, John 5:28-29 says that good and evil behavior will determine one's lot in the resurrection:
'Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out -- those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.'
The determining factor is whether a person has 'done good' or 'done evil.' Isn't that plain enough?"
H.D....please take the time to listen to "True and False Conversion" on livingwaters.com (it's free). It will make the above make sense. Thanks.
Ummm...you do realize that the American Revolution was a sin? Romans clearly indicates that we are supposed to follow the laws of the country in which we reside. A few posts back you admitted to breaking the law and thereby breaking God's command to obey the leaders of the country in which we reside.
Rebelling against the leaders of a country violates Romans. A tax revolt is against the God's commands and therefore American Christians should not celebrate American Independence Day. That's like celebrating American Lying Day.
In regard to the previous post, do aborted babies go to Heaven? If so then abortion should be welcome since it guarantees that the person spends eternity in Heaven. In this case only a born person has a chance of going to Hell and we should do all that we can to prevent people from going to Hell.
If aborted babies go to Hell then...God isn't just. In either case your position on abortion is illogical.
"shunted said...In regard to the previous post, do aborted babies go to Heaven? If so then abortion should be welcome since it guarantees that the person spends eternity in Heaven. In this case only a born person has a chance of going to Hell and we should do all that we can to prevent people from going to Hell. If aborted babies go to Hell then...God isn't just. In either case your position on abortion is illogical."
I am amazed at the lengths people will go to, to try and justify the murder of children in the womb.
As the great grand neice of a Civil War vet, the grandaughter of a WWI vet, the daughter and daughter-in-law of WWII vets, the sister-in-law of a Vietnam vet, and the aunt to an Iraqi vet (who just got home from Afghanistan!), I say, THANK YOU TROOPS and may God CONTINUE TO BLESS AMERICA. (we need all the help we can get!)
HAPPY 4TH everyone! :)
Happy 4th of July everyone! I hope everyone has some fun activities lined up for today. I, for one, am having a BBQ. :)
Ray says--
What does your country’s flag mean to you? To the United States, the flag is very special because it symbolizes freedom. It is a country that is unique in that it calls itself "One nation under God." That means that it’s a nation where you can have the freedom to love God, or you can be an atheist and even be free to promote your atheism.
That is very special.
***
Ray, do you start out assuming your readers are stupid?
Kindly explain the rationale you use to say "One Nation Under God" means we're free to be atheists?
Do you know that in the state I live in, I do not enjoy the same right you do to run for governor (or any other state office)? Know why? Because to run for state office, I have to acknowledge there is a Deity of some sort. I have to officially renounce my atheism.
What it really means is that atheists better watch their backs!
That would be like saying if our money said on it: "Money Talks, God Walks" that would somehow translate into "You're free to be a Christian, even an activist Christian."
Come on, Ray. Most of your readers are perfectly nice. Don't insult our intelligence.
The flag isn't totally sacred to me. As the US goes further and further down the path of abomination, I'm reminded that...Abba is sacred, all earthly things are destined for destruction and I'd say most for corruption. I greatly value the blessing of our Country's dedication to Abba. I value sacrifice and freedom. But I will not put anything between my allegience to Adonai. I still say the Pledge every mourning at School (I work in one) and often sing. I'm reminded how blessed I am. And I'm particularly pleased when I say One Nation Under God. I feel a bit defiant.
It is a country that is unique in that it calls itself "One nation under God." That means that it’s a nation where you can have the freedom to love God, or you can be an atheist and even be free to promote your atheism. That is very special.
You should include the reason that phrase is in the pledge. The founding fathers had nothing to do with it. It was added in 1954 as an answer to "Godless" communism. Just Like "In God We Trust" was made our "official" motto in 1956.
The symbol of Christianity is a blood-stained cross. It reminds the Christian that he is free from the demands of Eternal Justice.
I've seen many Christian crosses, but none of them have been blood-stained. What's with this obsession with blood? As Burroughs asked, "Does Christ never get tired of bleeding?"
On the Day of Judgment the Law of God cannot condemn me, because my crimes against God no longer exist. They have been blotted out by the mercy of the Judge.
This sounds like corruption to me. Give the judge a nice bribe/kickback and he'll not only pardon you, but he'll wipe the record clean. That's not justice.
Oh, where are my manners?
Happy Forth of July everybody!
And that includes you and yours, Ray. Of course.
Pause and reflect, and be grateful for the many rights we do enjoy!.
An FYI from the Zogby web site:
"In Darwin Anniversary Year, New Zogby Poll Reveals Majority Support for Intelligent Design
Just a few months before the 150th anniversary of Darwin's On the Origin of Species, a newly released Zogby poll shows that the American public overwhelmingly rejects Darwinian theory in favor of intelligent design. When asked if life developed through an unguided process of random mutations and natural selection, a standard definition of Darwinism, only 33 percent of respondents said they agreed with the statement. But 52 percent agreed that the development of life was guided by intelligent design.
The poll results come from one of four questions commissioned by Discovery Institute for a national Zogby telephone survey conducted earlier in 2009. Results from the other three questions were released previously to coincide with the bicentennial of Charles Darwin's birth.
(7/2/2009)
- Discovery Institute"
I was just wondering, Ray, why did you move to the U.S. I don't believe there is any such thing as a "Christian nation." Only people can choose to be or not be Christian. However I do recognize the fact that the majority of people in the U.S. consider themselves Christians and thus call the United States a "Christian nation." That being said, why come to America since it is so Christian? Why not go to a country that is primarily Hindu or Buddhist or atheistic? According to polls about 85% of Americans consider themselves Christians and at least 35-40% call themselves "born again" while only 10-12% of Americans are atheists. So why did you decide to come here to preach? Aside from predominently Catholic countries (and I am not sure if you consider Catholics Christians or not) in most other countries people identify themselves as non-Christians or nominal Christians. Aside from this blog aren't you pretty much preaching to the choir in the U.S.?
I find the concept of "getting saved" so absurd, especially the "urgency" of it, as if God doesn't know anything in advance, and He's just waiting with baited breath to see if we'll make it in time or not...
Let's say you and me, Ray, are on a plane that suddenly experiences catastrophic failure and heads down for the ocean. The crash is less than 60 seconds away. Ray starts screaming:
Ray: "Quickly, accept Jesus as your Savior!"
Me: "What?"
Ray: "The words don't matter, just sincerely repent, and accept the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross!"
Me: "OK, alright. huh..."
Ray: "DO IT, DO IT!!"
Me: "I realize I am a sinner, and that Jesus died and shed His precious blood to.. to..."
Ray: "FINISH IT, HURRY!!"
Me: "to wash away my sins. I now turn from sin, and accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savio--**CRASH!!**
I wake up in the afterlife, where upon facing God, He replies to my enormous relief: "Well done, thou good and faithful servant: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."
Ray and I high-five each other and go "Wow! That was so close! You almost landed in Hell for a moment there. Close shave. What a rush!"
The majority of the traffic for this site is just atheists coming for a good laugh at the logical fallacies spewing forth from this idiot's mouth. E.g. Argument ad baculum, where Ray tries to convert people by making them scared of dying; a concept that he attempts to reinforce with the "number of people who have died since opening this webpage counter". he also oversimplifies evolution, and continually uses subjective reasoning.
Can you see the irony of you capitalizing on the fact that it is Independence Day? Most of us call ourselves "freethinkers." The one thing that no one can shackle, not even governments is a person's thought processes.Even if people are persecuted for their actions, their minds are still free. That is why we reject any system that would shackle our minds and stifle free inquiry. Click on my blog in my profile to see what I think of those who have sacrificed for flag and country.
Southern Comfort said...Can you see the irony of you capitalizing on the fact that it is Independence Day? Most of us call ourselves "freethinkers." The one thing that no one can shackle, not even governments is a person's thought processes.Even if people are persecuted for their actions, their minds are still free. That is why we reject any system that would shackle our minds and stifle free inquiry."
SC...sorry, you are not free at all. You are chained to both sin and to death.
Ray writes:
I am amazed at the lengths people will go to, to try and justify the murder of children in the womb.
If abortion is murder, do you believe that women who procure abortions should be subject to imprisonment and/or execution, as are other murderers?
It is a country that is unique in that it calls itself "One nation under God."
It's not THAT unique. Even Iraq has the words "God is Great" on their flag. I don't see any mention of God on OUR flag.
To the Christians who visit here, I have a question.
Do you sin any more? Are you now living a perfect, sinless life? Do you stop sinning completely once you've been saved?
If so, then congratulations - you're perfect and have nothing to worry about.
But maybe not. Maybe you've had a lustful thought or two, maybe without even remembering it. That would make you an adulterer. Maybe you helped yourself to a soda refill at Taco Bell when you thought it was free but it wasn't. That would make you a thief. Maybe you told your boss that you worked until 6:30 when you actually left at 6:20. That would make you a liar. Etc.
Do you believe that once you're saved, then you're always saved, no matter what sins you may commit after that?
If so, then you've got a free ticket to heaven even if you do commit adultery, lie or steal. Must be nice.
If not, then do you keep having to renew your saved status every time you do something wrong? After all, God can't tolerate sin, however small, so if you slip up once and then die before getting re-forgiven, then you still go to Hell. Right?
So even if you do get a new heart in Christ and don't want to sin anymore ever again, don't you still slip up, even once in a while? And if you do, then aren't you back to being a sinner as bad as the worst criminal as far as God is concerned?
So it seems to me that your choices are:
1. Claim that you're perfect and sinless now that you're saved.
2. Admit that you still sin, even if just a little here and there, and make sure that you're praying for forgiveness all the time. After all, if you sin even once and then die, then you go to Hell.
3. Believe that once you're saved then you get a Get Out of Hell Free card and that God will now loosen up and let you get away with sins that would send an unsaved person straight to the hot place.
So which is it?
Char'Els said...
To the Christians who visit here, I have a question.
Do you sin any more? Are you now living a perfect, sinless life? Do you stop sinning completely once you've been saved?
Yes. No. No.
The Bible says..
If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us - 1 John 1:8
We (Christians) have a loving heavenly Father that says "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forever us of our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9 When anyone humbles themselves before God and repents (turns from sin and self-centeredness) and puts their trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, that person is spiritually born again. That person is forgiven of all their sins and is even given the righteousness of Christ so that they can stand before a Holy and Righteous God on Judgment day. Once you become a Christian (Christ follower), you enter into an eternal relationship with the creator of the Universe. You will have to ask his forgiveness because the follower of Christ is not perfect and will sin (miss the mark).
Until we repent and put our trust in Christ, we are all creatures of God. The moment we repent and trust in Christ as Savior and Lord, we become a child of God. "To all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God - children born of God." We are then free in Christ to live a life of gratitude to a loving God that was willing to die in our place so that we would not have to experience the wrath of God that awaits those who will not submit to the Creator, Sustainer and Redeemer of the Universe who has given everything precious to them.
As a Christian, you will still sin from time to time because you still have a sin nature but you now have the Spirit of God living within you to help you live a life for Him. When we do sin, we have a loving Heavenly Father eager to forgive us. He does not disown us because we have acknowledged Him as our Lord and Savior. We now belong to Him. Until we repent and trust in Him, we are "spiritually" dead because of our rebellion and pride that we can live this life without Him being Lord and Savior of our lives.
"For God so loved the world (including Char'Els) that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16
"But God demonstrated His own love toward Char'Els (us), that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us". He (Christ) died for you and I so that we would not have to experience the just wrath of a holy, perfect and righteous God.
Happy Independence Day!
"SC...sorry, you are not free at all. You are chained to both sin and to death."
Only one of those actually exist, Ray. Hint: it isn't the 'sin' one.
Ray said...
H.D....please take the time to listen to "True and False Conversion" on livingwaters.com (it's free). It will make the above make sense. Thanks
Ray, why should I listed to you when I can just read the Bible? Why is your interpretation more correct than any other?
I am amazed at the lengths people will go to, to try and justify the murder of children in the womb.
It's not about justifying abortion Ray, simply the question of the logistics of Christianity.
The foetus is a child of satan, according to *your* dogmatic beliefs. It is evil, thanks to Adama and Eve, and it needs to repent, yet it has no opportunity to do so.
So aborted foetuses go to hell. It's as simple as that. Seems a little unfair, no?
shunted said...
In regard to the previous post, do aborted babies go to Heaven? If so then abortion should be welcome since it guarantees that the person spends eternity in Heaven. In this case only a born person has a chance of going to Hell and we should do all that we can to prevent people from going to Hell.
If aborted babies go to Hell then...God isn't just. In either case your position on abortion is illogical.
You can apply this type of logic to one year old babies as well. Given that the Bible says you shall not murder, it's quite obvious that God commands against murdering born and unborn babies.
I'm often around a lot of addicts, and I have had a few addiction problems myself, and Ray is spot on here, even in our own thoughts we are chained to sin. That's one of the first steps in AA (tho I don't advocate the 12 step program) a person admitting they are powerless over their addiction. Scary stuff to be powerless isn't it. Christ wants to set you free.
(it's funny that the word verification to post this comment is "freable" That's what we are in Christ. freeable!)
Why are you dispaying a picture of the flag flying backwards?
How disrespectful to God and country.
:{O
wv:vialindf
Char'Els said...
To the Christians who visit here, I have a question.
Do you believe that once you're saved, then you're always saved, no matter what sins you may commit after that?
Yes, you're saved so long as you abide in Christ.
If so, then you've got a free ticket to heaven even if you do commit adultery, lie or steal. Must be nice.
If you do any of the above, your heart should greatly trouble you about whether you're an actual Christian.
If not, then do you keep having to renew your saved status every time you do something wrong? After all, God can't tolerate sin, however small, so if you slip up once and then die before getting re-forgiven, then you still go to Hell. Right?
Not even close. The Apostle Paul answered this question when addressing his own struggles.
Romans 7:19-20
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
So even if you do get a new heart in Christ and don't want to sin anymore ever again, don't you still slip up, even once in a while? And if you do, then aren't you back to being a sinner as bad as the worst criminal as far as God is concerned?
See above.
So it seems to me that your choices are:
1. Claim that you're perfect and sinless now that you're saved.
2. Admit that you still sin, even if just a little here and there, and make sure that you're praying for forgiveness all the time. After all, if you sin even once and then die, then you go to Hell.
3. Believe that once you're saved then you get a Get Out of Hell Free card and that God will now loosen up and let you get away with sins that would send an unsaved person straight to the hot place.
So which is it?
4. Abide in Christ and the rest will take care of itself.
Char'Els,
None of the above from this Christian.
1. I'm sinless in God's eyes because I have the righteousness of Christ imputed to me. (not mine, which would be works or earning it, but Christ's)
2. Jesus died for ALL my sins (and yours) including the ones I haven't committed yet. (considering I committed them all after He was resurrected, for Him to forgive my future sins is no stretch for Him)
3. Paul asks in Romans, "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound? God forbid!" Why would I want to continue doing something that God hates and Jesus died to rescue me from?
Do I sin? Yes. I am still carrying around a carcass of flesh that likes to sin, but
1. I've been crucified WITH Christ, so the desires of that body are crucified as well and I can overcome it's lusts.
2. I have God's presence, the Holy Spirit to convict me when I HAVE sinned or am headed in that direction.
3. I have God's discipline if I sin. If I keep doing it, He'll bring something into my life, (an illness perhaps or deny me something, not answer a prayer) to get my attention and draw me back to Him.
4. I have God's word to tell me what sin is, and His promise to provide a way out from it.
Your three choices make an awful lot of assumptions that are common to unbelievers.
Saudi Arabia's flag actually has printed on it "(There is) no god but Allah. Muhammad (is the) messenger of Allah". And Iran has "There is no god but God" printed on it's flag. So the US having some pithy slogan is hardly unique.
Since you are in a question answering mode how about some of these ones?
How are you doing with that proof that 100% of scientists once thought the earth was flat?
And how is that literature summary on Evolving Gravity coming along?
How about your scientific rebuttal on how ERVs are not evidence for Common Descent?
How about your calculations for the heat death of the universe, getting anywhere with that?
I mean most of us just assume you make stuff up as you go along. but it would be nice to be proven wrong there.
Happy 4th everyone! It's raining here so it looks like the beach BBQ is canceled :(
Char'Els said.....some things which shows that he does have an understanding of some aspects of the doctrine of salvation. But then he ends with this:
So it seems to me that your choices are:
1. Claim that you're perfect and sinless now that you're saved.
[1 John 1:8-10 refutes this]
2. Admit that you still sin, even if just a little here and there, and make sure that you're praying for forgiveness all the time. After all, if you sin even once and then die, then you go to Hell.
[1 John 2:1 refutes this]
3. Believe that once you're saved then you get a Get Out of Hell Free card and that God will now loosen up and let you get away with sins that would send an unsaved person straight to the hot place.
[That is called antinomianism; the scriptures cited above, along with 1 John 3:4-10 refute that]
So which is it?
I have come to expect that whenever I see the words, "So which is it?" at the end of an atheist's comment, they are usually following on the heels of a false dichotomy. Or in this case, a false trichotomy. (Hmmm. Sounds like some kind of surgical procedure.)
No, Char'Els, we confess that one of the benefits that we receive from the sacrifice and death of Christ on the cross is that our "old self" is with him crucified, slain and buried; (Rom 6:5-11; Col. 2:11-12) so that the evil lusts of the flesh may no more reign in us, (Rom. 6:12-14)but that we may offer ourselves to Him as a sacrifice of thanksgiving.(Rom. 12:1; 2 Cor. 5:15; Eph. 5:1-2) (Q.43 - Heidelberg Catechism)
True, we will be dealing with the remaining sin in our lives until we are perfected in glory. But if a professing Christian has a cavalier attitude toward the sin in his life, he has no reason for confidence that he has ever been born again.
Craig B
Southern Comfort,
I spent several minutes visiting your website and it is with a heavy-heart that I write this.
Southern Comfort said: "The one thing that no one can shackle, not even governments is a person's thought processes."
SC,
While that is a true statement if you are speaking of human beings, it is certainly not true that your thought processes cannot be shackled.
Your father, the god of this world, has you firmly shackled and in his service.
I pray that you will turn to the Lord Jesus Christ before it is too late.
Here is what the Lord has planned for Satan and his servants:
Revelation 20:10:
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
.
Ray Comfort Said...
H.D....please take the time to listen to "True and False Conversion" on livingwaters.com (it's free). It will make the above make sense. Thanks.
July 4, 2009 8:59 AM
Is this b/c the Bible is not clear enough to stand on its own? That is needs to be interpeted and re-interpeted? Does not sound good for the infallable book.
I'm very lucky to be Canadian and American because my father is Canadian and my mother is American. I feel very blessed to have dual citizenship and knowing that my two countries have very close ties makes me just as thankful for both.
So to all Americans everywhere, Happy Independence Day!
And to the troops who are willing to sacrifice their time and lives if needed, Thank you! (Especially Harold who sent me some really cool pics from Afghanistan... You boys stay safe over there!)
I have a couple questions of curiosity for Ray... have you taken citizenship or are you thinking of it? Does New Zealand have a special day like this?
Either way, I hope you everyone enjoys the day!
What sacrifice did Jesus make? One day on the cross and an eternity of praise and worship? If Jesus existed and actually was god incarnate, what sacrifice did he make? What is one day of human suffering to a god that is eternal?
Christianity is just another religion with blood sacrifice as it's core belief. Nothing new.
Abba is sacred
While I'd admit that they recorded some pretty catchy tunes, I don't think they are sacred.
Happy 4th! Don't blow off your fingers.
Mr. Comfort, I believe that you have neglected to actually reference any evidence in support of your claims.
"I look back on my pre-conversion state and remember how the Cross was meaningless to me. It was a foreign flag to which I had no allegiance."
----
Yeah, I agree. I always knew about Jesus, I read tons about the Bible, but I really had no idea what it meant to be a Christian. I didn't understand my sin and how serious it was. I was young at the time.
But as I got older and understood more and more, I could no longer ignore God. Rather than clinging to my sin, I repented and put my faith is Christ alone, and He gave me a new heart and new desires that same night.
I have to thank you for that, Ray. After watching those witnessing clips online, Jesus made so much sense. I started reading the Bible everyday and I'm learning a lot. So thanks~ All your hard work pays off. You're very, very brave to do what you do everyday. ^__^
Ray Comfort said...
"shunted said...In regard to the previous post, do aborted babies go to Heaven? If so then abortion should be welcome since it guarantees that the person spends eternity in Heaven. In this case only a born person has a chance of going to Hell and we should do all that we can to prevent people from going to Hell. If aborted babies go to Hell then...God isn't just. In either case your position on abortion is illogical."
I am amazed at the lengths people will go to, to try and justify the murder of children in the womb.
Especially that God Character, he doesn't even bother to Justify it, he just designed the miscarriages. God the greatest abortion doctor of all time.
Let us all on this day remember all the indians killed directly and indirectly so we all can be free. By there blood we are truly free.
Ray it's 5th of July here in Australia. And we celebrate our "Independence Day" on January 26, Australia Day.
Australia Day is not universally loved because, as well as symbolising the birth of the modern nation, it marks the point where the massacres and dispossession of the aboriginal Australians began. Even now, 200 years later, the country has not fully recovered or reconciled itself with the deeds of those times.
The Treaty of Waitangi, although somewhat controversial and abused, seems to be a better outcome for the Maori as at least they were granted title to their own lands and given equivalent rights to British citizens, something the Australian aborigines did not obtain until the 1970s.
Ray, have you ever discussed the events leading to your conversion to Christianity? I'm aware that there is a particular day in the early 1970s (I think) when you came to Christ. I'd be interested to hear what happened, what lead to that decision. Is that something you'd be comfortable relating to us?
It isn't mere curiosity - I'm interested in what makes such a strong servant of Christ as opposed to, say, an average believer.
My wife's grandfather was a minister for over 50 years: he had a vision which called him to the ministry, he saw an agent of God as clearly as I can turn around and see my son.
Was it something like that for you?
The poll results come from one of four questions commissioned by Discovery Institute for a national Zogby telephone survey conducted earlier in 2009. Results from the other three questions were released previously to coincide with the bicentennial of Charles Darwin's birth.
I do not believe that this reference is relevant to the current discussion.
ericlosa wrote:
"The poll results come from one of four questions commissioned by Discovery Institute for a national Zogby telephone survey conducted earlier in 2009. Results from the other three questions were released previously to coincide with the bicentennial of Charles Darwin's birth."
Discovery Institute? I am sure THAT was one unbiased poll. Ha ha ha ha.
Ray,
I was 100% sure that is the comeback
you would give. You never surprise me. As we used to say in the old days, you sound like a broken record.
Ray Comfort said...
Southern Comfort said...Can you see the irony of you capitalizing on the fact that it is Independence Day? Most of us call ourselves "freethinkers." The one thing that no one can shackle, not even governments is a person's thought processes.Even if people are persecuted for their actions, their minds are still free. That is why we reject any system that would shackle our minds and stifle free inquiry."
SC...sorry, you are not free at all. You are chained to both sin and to death.
According to you so are you, you just claim to have a get out of jail free card.
Wait, so Jesus is God Loop Hole in God's moral perfection.
Happy 233rd Birthday America!
Erikloza said:
An FYI from the Zogby web site:
"In Darwin Anniversary Year, New Zogby Poll Reveals Majority Support for Intelligent Design
Just a few months before the 150th anniversary of Darwin's On the Origin of Species, a newly released Zogby poll shows that the American public overwhelmingly rejects Darwinian theory in favor of intelligent design. When asked if life developed through an unguided process of random mutations and natural selection, a standard definition of Darwinism, only 33 percent of respondents said they agreed with the statement. But 52 percent agreed that the development of life was guided by intelligent design.
That's rather interesting. I'm not sure what it means; apparently in a country where fewer than one in ten people are atheists, fully one in three people think God played no role in our species' arrival on this planet.
Or perhaps that's not quite what it means. "The development of life was guided by intelligent design" could encompass a range of positions, from six-day recent special creation to God setting up and maintaining the laws that govern evolution.
On the other hand, some people taking that latter position might well say that life did develop "through an unguided process of random mutations and natural selection." Polls usually end up trying to stuff complex, nuanced, and/or confused and self-contradictory opinions into a few simple categories.
In any case, I'm not sure what your point is. Whether evolution is true, or whether God played any role at all in it, presumably does not depend on popular vote (and, of course, different countries will yield different polling results, yet presumably evolution is exactly as true in Japan or Sweden as it is in Saudi Arabia or Turkey ... or in the United States).
The poll results come from one of four questions commissioned by Discovery Institute for a national Zogby telephone survey conducted earlier in 2009. Results from the other three questions were released previously to coincide with the bicentennial of Charles Darwin's birth.
(7/2/2009)
- Discovery Institute"
The Discovery Institute is notoriously better at spin than it is at actual discovery.
Ray wrote:
"shunted said...In regard to the previous post, do aborted babies go to Heaven? If so then abortion should be welcome since it guarantees that the person spends eternity in Heaven. In this case only a born person has a chance of going to Hell and we should do all that we can to prevent people from going to Hell. If aborted babies go to Hell then...God isn't just. In either case your position on abortion is illogical."
I am amazed at the lengths people will go to, to try and justify the murder of children in the womb.
I'm amazed at the lengths you will go to avoid discussing the logical consequences of your beliefs. The only justified by my post was the illogicality of your position. I did not condone or condemn abortion. Your position makes no sense to me and instead of addressing my statements you came up with a red herring.
If aborted babies go to Heaven then it is a good thing they get aborted because every born person has a very good chance of going to Hell. If aborted babies go to Hell then God is not just. In either case your beliefs on the issue lead to a contradiction in your position or to the conclusion that God is not just. Instead of addressing this conundrum you try to sidetrack the issue.
@Char'Els
Your comment inspired a new post on my blog. Thanks.
Craig B
Happy 4th of July to you Ray and your family. This also goes to all the fellow readers here from Lizette and I.
May God bless you all.
Ray said,
"H.D....please take the time to listen to 'True and False Conversion' on livingwaters.com (it's free). It will make the above make sense. Thanks."
Ray, you're a good preacher. I like your humor.
I suppose the gist of this is that when a person is saved, they will as a consequence wish to do good things to please God. I've got that. But the text I mentioned in Matthew 25, as well as the John 5 passage, set forth good works as the cause of salvation, not just the fruit of it. The same is true in Romans 2:6-10:
"God 'will give to each person according to what he has done.' To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."
May God Bless You all. Amen
Ray,
Apparantly the U.S. is not so unique after all. Here are more countries that think they are "under God" according to thei national mottos (I have excluded the ones that say Allah simply because you probably don't consider him God):
Brunei: Always in service with God's guidance
Denmark: God's help, the love of the people, Denmark's strength
Dominica: After the Good Lord, we love the Earth
Dominican Republic: God, Country, Liberty
Ecuador: God, homeland and liberty
El Salvador: God, Union, Liberty
Fiji: Fear God and honour the Queen
German Empire: God with us (i.e. "Gott mit uns")
Grenada: Ever Conscious of God We Aspire, and Advance as One People
Liechtenstein: For God, Prince and Fatherland
Monaco: With God's help
Morocco: God, the Country, the King
Nauru: God's will first
Philippines: For God, People, Nature and Country
Poland: God, Honor, Fatherland
Romania: Nothing without God
Russian Empire: God is with us
Samoa: God be the Foundation of Samoa
Scotland:In My Defense God
Senegal: One people, one goal, one faith
Kingdom of Serbia: With faith in God, for king and Fatherland
Thailand: Thai, Nation, Religion, King
Tonga: God and Tonga are my Inheritance
Tuvalu: Tuvalu for the Almighty
Uganda: For God and My Country
United Kingdom: God and my right Venezuela: God and Federation
Ray,
Apparantly the U.S. is not so unique after all. Here are more countries that think they are "under God" according to thei national mottos (I have excluded the ones that say Allah simply because you probably don't consider him God):
Brunei: Always in service with God's guidance
Denmark: God's help, the love of the people, Denmark's strength
Dominica: After the Good Lord, we love the Earth
Dominican Republic: God, Country, Liberty
Ecuador: God, homeland and liberty
El Salvador: God, Union, Liberty
Fiji: Fear God and honour the Queen
German Empire: God with us (i.e. "Gott mit uns")
Grenada: Ever Conscious of God We Aspire, and Advance as One People
Liechtenstein: For God, Prince and Fatherland
Monaco: With God's help
Morocco: God, the Country, the King
Nauru: God's will first
Philippines: For God, People, Nature and Country
Poland: God, Honor, Fatherland
Romania: Nothing without God
Russian Empire: God is with us
Samoa: God be the Foundation of Samoa
Scotland:In My Defense God
Senegal: One people, one goal, one faith
Kingdom of Serbia: With faith in God, for king and Fatherland
Thailand: Thai, Nation, Religion, King
Tonga: God and Tonga are my Inheritance
Tuvalu: Tuvalu for the Almighty
Uganda: For God and My Country
United Kingdom: God and my right Venezuela: God and Federation
"Southern Comfort said...
Ray, Apparantly the U.S. is not so unique after all. Here are more countries that think they are "under God" according to thei national mottos (I have excluded the ones that say Allah simply because you probably don't consider him God):
Brunei: Always in service with God's guidance
Denmark: God's help, the love of the people, Denmark's strength
Dominica: After the Good Lord, we love the Earth
Dominican Republic: God, Country, Liberty
Ecuador: God, homeland and liberty
El Salvador: God, Union, Liberty
Fiji: Fear God and honour the Queen
German Empire: God with us (i.e. "Gott mit uns")
Grenada: Ever Conscious of God We Aspire, and Advance as One People
Liechtenstein: For God, Prince and Fatherland
Monaco: With God's help
Morocco: God, the Country, the King
Nauru: God's will first
Philippines: For God, People, Nature and Country
Poland: God, Honor, Fatherland
Romania: Nothing without God
Russian Empire: God is with us
Samoa: God be the Foundation of Samoa
Scotland:In My Defense God
Senegal: One people, one goal, one faith
Kingdom of Serbia: With faith in God, for king and Fatherland
Thailand: Thai, Nation, Religion, King
Tonga: God and Tonga are my Inheritance
Tuvalu: Tuvalu for the Almighty
Uganda: For God and My Country
United Kingdom: God and my right Venezuela: God and Federation"
S. C...This is such a good reminder of the truth of Psalm 19. Thanks.
Perdita,
Ray was telling Hacksaw Duck to listen to "True and False conversion" in answer to his specific question. He just wanted to condense the information, not reinterpret Scripture.
Char'Els said...
"To the Christians who visit here, I have a question."
Do you believe that once you're saved, then you're always saved, no matter what sins you may commit after that?
Most definitely, because salvation is the gift of God. You cannot earn it and you cannot lose it. You can only accept it through faith (and even faith is by the grace of God).
"If so, then you've got a free ticket to heaven even if you do commit adultery, lie or steal. Must be nice."
Nope, no free ticket in this world. Sinning has consequences, even for Christians. And if Christians deliberately sin, they should be prepared to live with the consequences. Sometimes, even death...
However, that is not to say that they lose their salvation and eternal life.
.
Hey Ray,
Any reason why you decided my last post about God wasn't allowed to show up? Is it because you know there is truth in what I say?
Southern Comfort said, "As we used to say in the old days, you sound like a broken record."
What is a record?
Just kidding, I think my last actual LP was the Thriller album.
Things change over time and we all need to be able to change with them. If God thinks his message is still important I invite him to come on back and tell it to us again. Now we could even get him out to EVERYONE via satellite, rather than to a very few backward folks desperate for anything to cling to.
Wait What said: "Is this b/c the Bible is not clear enough to stand on its own? That is needs to be interpeted and re-interpeted? Does not sound good for the infallable book."
You'll find any way you possibly can to avoid listening to it, won't you?
PART FOUR:
Greetings [hopefully for the final time], Hacksaw Duck, in the NAME which is above every name,
Once again, "good works" comes AFTER salvation. Any hypocritical, false converts who, with their mouth, profess to be Christians, but, who by their actions and lives, don't engage in "good works", and who in their heart could care less about this dichotomy are the ones to whom some of Christ's strongest words were addressed. In fact, in last book of the Bible, the book of Revelation chapter 3, the Lord Jesus Christ states that He will vomit up such "lukewarm" hypocrites. Wow, pretty strong words from the meek "Lamb of God Who taketh away the sin of the world" (cf. John 1.29).
As far as Romans 10.9 is concerned, true saving faith is described as being not merely intellectual in nature the way we believe, for example, a simple mathematical proposition, but rather true saving faith is of the heart ("For if you..believe in your heart...you will be saved" - Rom 10.9 [in part]). Is the Bible messed on up on human anatomy here? Did the Apostle Paul, who under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit penned those words, not understand that it is our brain which "doeth" the thinking? No, not at all. It is figurative language. Even tooday we say that our heart "feels", so to speak, emotion. In 17th century England, it might be phrased as "the bowels of our compassion" - our bowels as the "seat", so to speak, of our emotions???
It's all just figurative language. We still use such today and we understand. All should accord this greatest of all pieces of literature this same leeway when it employs rhetorical devices (aka "figures of speech"). None of us wants to be intentionally arbitrary and inconsistent, right?
Think of "belief in you heart" in this way. The mind is the "seat" of [intellectual] agreement. The heart is the "seat" of commitment. God wants deep devotion of heart in our belief, which changes our lives by His power, not just mere lip service stemming from a shallow intellectual commitment. It is often said that after hearing the Gospel message the difference between true salvation and a false conversion is just 18" (eighteen inches). That's the approximate distance between the top of one's head and one's heart.
Perhaps an illustration might help? Generally speaking, two people don't marry because they ONLY share the intellectual values (e.g., the same political ideology, or the same investment strategies). They marry because of a "heart", so to speak, commitment. This is essentially the sane level of "heart" commitment ("believe in your heart" - cf. Romans 10.9) that produces "saving faith", as it is often termed nowadays by Bible believing Christians.
Please consider these words and also those of Mr. Comfort and humble yourself to believe the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Please, bow you heart in humility and accept this free gift of eternal life through His sacrifice for you on the Cross.
I would very much like to say much more to you, but space and time does NOT permit this. If you would like to correspond further, please feel free to email me at huasheng.ma00 at yahoo dot com.
sincerely yours because of HIM,
huasheng
Honeybee said:
"Southern Comfort,
I spent several minutes visiting your website and it is with a heavy-heart that I write this.
Southern Comfort said: "The one thing that no one can shackle, not even governments is a person's thought processes."
SC,
While that is a true statement if you are speaking of human beings, it is certainly not true that your thought processes cannot be shackled.
Your father, the god of this world, has you firmly shackled and in his service."
.......................
You are confused. Its the other way around. I am free. You are shackled to an outdated ancient myth that requires you to be subservient to a malevolent dictator. There is nothing you have said to me that I have not heard before or said to others myself when I was a preacher.
Ray,
You are quite welcome. One of the arguments you will never hear from atheists is that they are in the majority. We march to beat of our own drum. We are FREE thinkers not just followers of what's popular.
Brian in VA:
Of course the logic applies to one year olds. A one year old who dies goes to Heaven or to Hell. If to Heaven then Christians ought to be happy when one year olds die because they end up in paradise. If they go to Hell then God isn't just.
In either case the Christian position is a bad one. I don't see Christians rejoicing when little babies die and this makes me think that they really don't believe those babies go to Heaven. If those babies go to Hell then God isn't just.
I am merely pointing out the logic of the Christian message. I'm not advocating that babies be killed because I don't believe in an afterlife. Babies that get killed don't go to Heaven because it doesn't exist. Their life ends and that is the tragedy. That is where the sadness comes from. In the finality of that child's life.
Christians claim to believe in Heaven but they don't rejoice when one of their own dies and they don't rejoice when innocent unborn babies die and go to Heaven. It makes me think they don't really believe in this Heaven/Hell nonsense.
PART ONE:
Greetings, Hacksaw Duck, in the NAME which is above every name,
you asked an excellent question. let me rephrase it this way, "What part do good works play in one's salvation?". In your mind, is that a fair way of rephrasing it?
I'd also like to ask you an easy question to answer (even if one is NOT familiar with the Bible's teaching, one could probably guess the correct answer), from the standpoint of the Bible's teaching would you say that doing the works of God are "good works"? The Bible would teach 'Yes' to this question and I think that you could have guessed that.
So, if I may, may I please try to address the excellent point that you brought up in your first Post in this Thread, and to answer the question(s) that may lie behind it, as well as to answer more fully the questions that I just posed to you.
Many of the Jews in Christ's day were very religious and did many good deeds. They were proud of their heritage (a descendent of "Father Abraham" - as am I on my mother's side), and their obedience to Torah (the Law of Moses). They were also proud of their separation from the world around them who did not worship the One True God of Heaven and Earth (YHWH).
I'll continue in Part TWO.
sincerely yours because of HIM,
huasheng
PART THREE:
Greetings yet once again, Hacksaw Duck, in the NAME which is above every name,
Is Christ confused on this point, viz. that belief in Him is the FIRST WORK that one must do? No, not at all. This is the very clear teaching of the New Testament. If you can, please look up the following verse references: Ephesians 2.8-10 and Titus 3:5-6. Let me include them here for ease of reference, but please read them for yourself in the Bible if you have the time to assure yourself that I am not misquoting them.
Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Please NOTE the PLACE (i.e., position) of "good works". It comes in v10 *AFTER* FAITH (the same word in the Greek New Testament that is also translated "belief" in other passages).
Also, please notice that it is by [God's - implicitly] "grace" (which may be defined as "unmerited favor" ["unmerited" = we didn't earn or merit it] or "an undeserved act of kindness") that we are "saved". And that, furthermore, that salvation is by "faith". It is further described as a "gift of God" [the greek grammar here also has the idea "gift from God"] - now, whoever tries to pay for a gift; that would be an insult to the giver of the gift, would it not?!!
Please, further notice that how we obtain this gift is not just identified positively, or in the positive sense, as "faith", but is also identified negatively, or in the negative sense, of "not as a result of works". That makes it pretty clear what the Bible teaches as to how this "gift" is appropriated for oneself (please also read Romans 10.9 which speaks very clearly on this point), does it not?
Now, what is the clearly stated reason why this is the manner of appropriating salvation? It is stated as "lest any man should boast".
Due to this Blog's limitations on the length of Posts, let me just remind you to also read Titus 3.5-6.
To be continued in PART FOUR.
sincerely yours because of HIM,
huasheng
PART TWO:
Greetings, Hacksaw Duck, in the NAME which is above every name,
Now, one day (cf. John 6.27), the Lord Jesus Christ uttered these words to a "multitude"(cf. Jn 6.24-25) of Jews, "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal." (Jn 6.27 NAS77 - these people had followed the Lord Jesus Christ because He had just fed them with some bread and fish on the previous day - please read the earlier portion of Jn 6 if you are interested in the context of this event and the words of the Lord that I am quoting here in this Post).
This statement sparked some interest in those who heard His words. These people very likely regarded themselves as those who all their life were doing the works of God. However, to some degree they were humble enough to not point to these works, but rather to ask this question in order to gain an understanding of what this great teacher and miracle worker, as they may have regarded Him, might say. Here is the question that they asked in Jn 6.28, "They said therefore to Him, 'What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?' "
Now this is what Christ answered (cf. Jn 6.29) in response to their question and really in response to the very excellent point that you raised and some question that I'm guessing might be behind it in your mind (especially after listening to Mr. Comfort's wonderful message), "Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.' "
Please notice that the Lord Jesus Christ did *NOT* ask for any great sacrifice or deed on their part. Rather, the very *FIRST* WORK that these hard "working", religious Jews were asked to do was to "believe in Him" whom God had sent. It is very clear from a reading of the entire Gospel of John, that the Jews were very clear on the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ claimed to be sent from God, and also claimed to be the unique (the real meaning of the term "only begotten" [monogenes] in the original language that the New Testament was written in, viz. Koine [common] Greek dialect of that day) Son of God. Please, if you have the time, read the entire Gospel according to John.
To be continued in PART THREE.
sincerely yours because of HIM,
huasheng
...it's quite obvious that God commands against murdering born and unborn babies.
Then why did he order the murder of so many of them in the OT? Did he have a change of heart recently?
Honeybee,
you answer to Char'Els:
"If so, then you've got a free ticket to heaven even if you do commit adultery, lie or steal. Must be nice."
Nope, no free ticket in this world. Sinning has consequences, even for Christians. And if Christians deliberately sin, they should be prepared to live with the consequences. Sometimes, even death...
However, that is not to say that they lose their salvation and eternal life.
I've tried to understand this, but seriously I can not. Are you saying that a Christian can suffer no worse consequence than dying like everyone else once he's been saved? No matter how much he sins? When you say "even death" it sounds like death is the worst you would assume possible. That is exactly what Char'Els meant by 'free ticket'.
Really, you post sounds like "there is no free ticket except that there is."
In addition, Ray has made it abundantly clear that sin does not require deliberate action. Lusting for example, by glancing at an attractive person passing you by on the street and even inadvertently having a tiny release of hormones, is a sin that needs not only repentance but forgiveness lest you forsake salvation. Now, since you say that salvation and eternal life is certain once given, how is repentance necessary after that? What about a lustful dream that you forgot and therefore never repented? Or is Ray simply wrong asserting that a lustful thought constitutes adultery and is thusly equally punishable as planned genocide?
Southern Comfort said: "There is nothing you have said to me that I have not heard before or said to others myself when I was a preacher."
SC,
Awww....the little mystery-hook that causes me to see red-flashing lights.
I'm rather new to Ray's blog, so it's likely that you have told your story before and I missed it.
That's okay...I don't need to know how you could have preached the Gospel of Jesus (if that is what you are claiming to have preached) and now deny Him.
He knows your heart and because of what I read on your blog, I wouldn't believe anything you said about it.
Are you familiar with the Holy Bible? If I mentioned a scripture to you, would you be aware of what I was referring to?
.
Thank you, ma huasheng, for your detailed explanation. Several problems, though, with what you're saying.
First, my point was that the the Synoptics (Matthew, Mark and Luke) are entirely lacking the "not by works" doctrine that people find in the gospel of John and the letters of Paul. My assertion stands.
Here's why I think it's unlikely that we'll get anywhere discussing this: From the very start, you are assuming a perfectly unified doctrine of salvation in the New Testament. But it certainly is not unified. Some portions teach "only believe" while others (most notably, the first three gospels) teach that a person attains the kingdom of God by living out a high standard of piety and good works. Clearly. Obviously.
I notice that you don't explain why Jesus in the Synoptics lays down personal goodness as an unwavering condition of entering the kingdom of God. The Rich Young Man asked Jesus how to get in and Jesus told him to keep the commandments -- not "only believe in me."
I find it interesting that when faced with contradictory paths to salvation, people start with the easier one (faith alone) and explain away the difficult one (faith and works). Why not start with the "good works" paradigm of the Synoptics and explain away John and Paul? The answer is pretty clear, I think.
By the way, Paul's "justification by faith" was probably a polemic against the necessity of Jewish works, such as circumcision and dietary laws. His point was that people can be Christians without being circumcised. Not that they can be Christians without deeds of piety or inner goodness. He really didn't subscribe to this "free ticket" concept, as is apparent in Romans 2:6-10.
Try Googling "new perspective on Paul" and you'll see how scholars -- even conservative ones -- are exploding the common idea of "faith alone" and "works of the law" that evangelicals have been preaching for so long.
Felix asked: "Are you saying that a Christian can suffer no worse consequence than dying like everyone else once he's been saved? No matter how much he sins? When you say "even death" it sounds like death is the worst you would assume possible."
No Felix, I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that if Christians deliberately commit sin, they will suffer the consequences in their life just as non-Christians do...
But the good news is that we have a Helper who gives us Power over sin!
Romans 6 NLT:
* 3.
* Do not let any part of your body become a tool of wickedness, to be used for sinning. Instead, give yourselves completely to God since you have been given new life. And use your whole body as a tool to do what is right for the glory of God.
* 14.
* Sin is no longer your master, for you are no longer subject to the law, which enslaves you to sin. Instead, you are free by God's grace.
* 15.
* So since God's grace has set us free from the law, does this mean we can go on sinning? Of course not!
* 16.
* Don't you realize that whatever you choose to obey becomes your master? You can choose sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God and receive his approval.
* 17.
* Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you have obeyed with all your heart the new teaching God has given you.
rocksprites said...
Wait What said: "Is this b/c the Bible is not clear enough to stand on its own? That is needs to be interpeted and re-interpeted? Does not sound good for the infallable book."
You'll find any way you possibly can to avoid listening to it, won't you?
Why should I listen to it, why is the Bible not a sufficent source on its own? I am suspicious of the living water business promotions on this website...
Ah... Honeybee pulls out the "No True Scotsman..."
Honeybee,
If I understand correctly, you are saying that once having been saved and obeying the command not to sin anymore, Christians will not suffer consequences in life like other people do. What would these consequences be? Disease, accidents, being assaulted, being raped or otherwise become a victim of crime, suffering hunger and thirst? I can't assume you mean that none of this happens to Christians who don't sin, or even that it happens to Christians any less than to other people.
So I really don't get what you mean by these consequences. I also don't understand how this squares with the assertion that no human can be free of sin but Jesus. How would it matter that a non-sinner is free of consequences if there is no such non-sinner? If, as many preachers assure us, it isn't even theoretically possible for a human to be free of sin?
hope to see you in heave really;
Is there any way you can edit your user name? Every time I read it, it brings up a mental picture of someone heaving and vomiting. Thanks.
shunted said...
Of course the logic applies to one year olds. A one year old who dies goes to Heaven or to Hell. If to Heaven then Christians ought to be happy when one year olds die because they end up in paradise. If they go to Hell then God isn't just.
They go to heaven, shunted.
2 Samuel 12:21-23
21 Then his [King David's] servants said to him, “What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” 22 And he [King David] said, “While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who can tell whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ 23 But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”
Luke 18:15-17
15 Then they also brought infants to Him that He might touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them to Him and said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”
In either case the Christian position is a bad one. I don't see Christians rejoicing when little babies die and this makes me think that they really don't believe those babies go to Heaven.
Then you would be wrong, as the Bible gives us the answer.
If those babies go to Hell then God isn't just.
I am merely pointing out the logic of the Christian message. I'm not advocating that babies be killed because I don't believe in an afterlife. Babies that get killed don't go to Heaven because it doesn't exist. Their life ends and that is the tragedy. That is where the sadness comes from. In the finality of that child's life.
Christians claim to believe in Heaven but they don't rejoice when one of their own dies and they don't rejoice when innocent unborn babies die and go to Heaven. It makes me think they don't really believe in this Heaven/Hell nonsense.
I think you grossly oversimply this issue due to a lack of Biblical understanding. The Bible teaches predestination.
Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
This means that unborn children were predestined to be conformed in Christ's image. Had they been born, they would have remained predestined.
1 Corinthians 1:6-8
6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
So my question to you is this: Why should a Christian rejoice when one of our brethren is murdered?
Honeybee said:
"Are you familiar with the Holy Bible? If I mentioned a scripture to you, would you be aware of what I was referring to?"
I don't think I've talked about my background on this particular message board. I've only been on here a couple of months myself.
I was brought up in a Christian home and accepted Christ as my savior at the age of 14. I commited my life to full-time Christian service at 18. I am a graduate of a conservitive Christian college and seminary, having studied the Bible formally at the college level for 6 years and as a Chistian for many more years than that. I was in Christian ministry for over 20 years So I guess you could at least say I am very familiar with the bible and its teachings.
I don't know if it would surprise you or not, but I know several other preachers who have rejected the tenets of Christianity after having been in the ministry for many years.
The False Convert said...
...it's quite obvious that God commands against murdering born and unborn babies.
Then why did he order the murder of so many of them in the OT? Did he have a change of heart recently?
___
God never commands murder, but He did use men for the purpose of judgment. Sometimes that judgment fell upon an entire nation, including children. God has the absolute right to wipe out an entire nation. He’s the Creator. He gives life, He can take it away, and if He will’s, He can even restore life again. His judgment is just and He will do what is right with every single soul that stands before Him. But if there is no God then all of your moral complaints are just your personal opinion and are irrelevant. For you the universe gives life, and takes it away, but cannot give it again. You have no hope of justice or of eternal life for anyones death. Who cares what people live or die or are murdered or suffer. The universe certainly doesn’t care. Why do you?
Brian in VA.
So since you believe in predestination weren't they predestined to be aborted so that your God could torture them without mercy or any chance of them being saved.
If not then there is no predestination.
If so then your God likes some of his torture victims to have no chance at salvation.
Of course since you believe in predestination, only those who are predestined to be saved are going to be so why should I worry about it? either I am right and there is no God or you are and it has already determined my fate anyway.
Unless of course you really don't believe in predestination, but if you don't how about a simple answer.
Aborted fetus, heaven or hell?
Excuse me as I take a nice deep breath and wait for the "You were never a Christian" comment in reply to Southern Comfort...
yes, yes, we know... he was faking it ect ect...
sofa king johnston said Why are you displaying a picture of the flag flying backwards?
How disrespectful to God and country.
Funny you should say that. I have a friend in Afghanistan and I noticed the flag he wore was turned this way too so I asked him if it was backwards. Apparently to have the flag displayed this way is called the "battle flag". All military uniforms have the flag facing that way. It might only face that way during times of war, or at all times for military uniforms, I'm not sure about that ;)
I don't know if Ray is intentionally showing the battle flag or not... He might consider himself to be a soldier of God at war with the disbelievers, or he maybe he doesn't know it's the battle flag and just liked the picture...
What say you Ray?
In addition, the Free Exercise Clause of this amendment is violated every day as religious speech and ideas are prohibited from our public schools, and many goverment properties. This was certainly not our founders' intention.
As is expected from an individual who has established a reputation as a serial liar, you are lying; or, rather, you are quoting from a source that is lying, as it is clear that you did not write the text that you have presented, but neither did you attribute the text to its original source. Religious speech and ideas are not "prohibited" from government properties.
Southern Comfort said:
"I was brought up in a Christian home and accepted Christ as my savior at the age of 14. I commited my life to full-time Christian service at 18. I am a graduate of a conservitive Christian college and seminary, having studied the Bible formally at the college level for 6 years and as a Chistian for many more years than that. I was in Christian ministry for over 20 years So I guess you could at least say I am very familiar with the bible and its teachings.
I don't know if it would surprise you or not, but I know several other preachers who have rejected the tenets of Christianity after having been in the ministry for many years."
Southern Comfort,
Even though I didn't ask you, you kindly shared your Christian-life story (until now) with me. Thank you...
Of course, I'd love to hear more about what happened to you, but you knew that I would. I'm not asking. 8^)
Compared to your background and formal education in theology, I'm at a big disadvantage.
But I have something you don't have, and that is a personal relationship with the Lord and a heart that loves and yearns for Him.
So, I don't think there is much more I can say to you, but I might ask you to think about one question:
You say you "accepted Christ" as your Savior at the age of fourteen. Are you sure about that???
Ephesians 4:30 NKJV: "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
2 Corinthians 1:21, 22: Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us [is] God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
.
The False Convert said: "Ah... Honeybee pulls out the "No True Scotsman...""
Well False Convert, that was not my intention. But since you brought it up, ever hear of Judas Iscariot?
John 6 NLT:
* 64. But some of you don't believe me." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who didn't believe, and he knew who would betray him.)
* 70.
* Then Jesus said, "I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil."
* 71.
* He was speaking of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, one of the Twelve, who would betray him.
.
Felix said: "If I understand correctly, you are saying that once having been saved and obeying the command not to sin anymore, Christians will not suffer consequences in life like other people do."
No Felix, you have not understood what I said correctly. I said just the opposite. (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that perhaps you made a typo or read my post wrong, but in the future, I will be vigilant when reading your posts.)
Felix said: "If, as many preachers assure us, it isn't even theoretically possible for a human to be free of sin?"
Lord Jesus is the only man (fully God, fully man) who ever lived a perfect and sin-free life. That is why His death was an acceptable sacrifice to pay for all of our sins: PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE.
As for your other questions:
Matthew 5:45 NLT ".......He gives His sunlight to both the evil and the good, and He sends rain on the just and on the unjust, too."
.
You say you "accepted Christ" as your Savior at the age of fourteen. Are you sure about that???
And there it is... No true Scotsman...
You don't disappoint Honeybee.
Kerri Love, whom I think was speaking about me but not to me, said: "Excuse me as I take a nice deep breath and wait for the "You were never a Christian" comment in reply to Southern Comfort...
Kerri Love,
Nope, I never had any intention of saying that to Southern Comfort. Here's why:
He told me he had accepted Jesus as his Savior. If he told the truth, then rest assured that God will deal with him because he has been sealed for eternity by the Holy Spirit (as I showed with scripture).
If he wasn't telling the truth then only God knows that -- as I also showed with the scripture about Judas.
.
Keith...
You are like OJ's defense team and God is your OJ. You can twist it however you like, but your God is evil incarnate.
Actually, I think OJ's defense team had better morals than your fictional creator does.
PART TWO (of two):
Greetings, Hacksaw Duck, in the NAME which is above every name,
Continuing onward from Part ONE...
Lastly, I submit to you for your consideration, given my above points, that Christ was NOT teaching a salvation by works, but was instead using the young fella's starting point to show that he failed even by his own standard and would NOT "inherit eternal life". I believe that you may have misunderstood the intention of Christ's words as teaching about salvation in general instead of being addressed to that young fella (and others like him living even today) that have too highly inflated image of themselves (a "legend in his own mind" as, I believe, it was Clint Eastwood said).
One more point please, a cardinal mistake many (both Christians and Skeptics) make is to attempt to draw doctrine from narrative passages of Scripture. This is a fundamental Hermeneutical (i.e., interpretive, greek "hermeneia" = "interpret" or "understanding", cp. "Hermes" the interpreter to man of Zeus's decrees) error. Doctrine is drawn from Didactic (i.e. teaching portions, from the greek "didache" = "teaching") portions of Scripture (i.e., the Epistles, Sermons [which this was NOT - it was a dialog], and declarative prophetic utterances clearly stating the words of the Lord [in contradistinction from "apocalyptic" prophecies employing cryptic, often misunderstood, symbolism]). The problem with drawing doctrine from narrative passages (the most common genre of Biblical literature) is that we are NOT as familiar with the culture, customs, history, idiom of the day, nor do we always consider sufficiently the context and circumstances of the narrative's dialog - this is, admittedly, difficult to do, as we need to draw conclusions instead of relying solely on the precise stated words alone. Again, it is difficult for ALL (including myself) to do this. Hence, a good interpreter does NOT draw doctrine from purely narrative passages. This was NOT a sermon that was being preached (and even there the occasion of the sermon and the mindset of the audience would need to be carefully considered), but was merely a dialog between two individuals.
With all respect and I mean to give no offense, I believe that you have fallen into this Hermeneutical error in using this particular narrative passage of a conversation between two individuals to support a Synoptic salvation by works. Please give this some careful thought. I think that you will see some small measure of wisdom in employing this Hermeneutical principle when attempting to interpret Scripture.
May God bless you richly with a saving knowledge of Himself through faith in the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
sincerely yours because of HIM,
huasheng
Well Honeybee... that's nice,
But it's fiction. And really bad fiction at that. You Christians should be celebrating Judas, because according to your Bible, he did the difficult and thankless task of setting Jesus up for crucifixion.
And once again, it shows a terrible lack of planning on your God's part.
Jesus was supposedly pretty well known, wasn't he? Then why did he need to be pointed out? Of course your God always has to do things in the most inefficient way.
PART ONE (of just Two - PTL):
Greetings, Hacksaw Duck, in the NAME which is above every name,
As far as the rich young ruler. Christ addressed His words to that young fella' in a way that were specifically tailored to illustrate to him that he had a false conception about his own righteousness, i.e., that he falsely believed himself to be righteous (i.e., "law abiding") and worthy of "eternal life" based upon his own works (please see Mark 10.20 to see that this is so).
First, please notice that Christ's words were accomodating the young fella's "what shall I *DO*" words. This was his mindset, that he could work, or "do", his way into salvation. Christ often employs the PROPER (i.e., NOT the attack, and NOT the fallacy) use of argumentum ad hominem, viz. assume your opponents position and show that his conclusions do not follow from his premises.
Second, Christ then attempts to show him that he could not, nor did he obey ALL of the commands WITHOUT OMISSION at ANY POINT in his life.
Third, what drives this point home is that, even granted *IF* the young man's assessment of himself was true (which it wasn't as evidenced by what follows), he was unwilling to love God and obey the first several of the 10 commandments in a way that he claimed that he obeyed the later commandments of the Decalogue. The young fella' was unwilling to sell all that he had, take up his cross, and FOLLOW CHRIST. Now, if the young fella' had really thought so highly of Christ ("good Master"), why wouldn't he do what Christ asked or follow Him? This reveals the young fella's hypocrisy. Anyways, what would you, HD, think of someone who claimed to be so good as that young fella' claimed? I can't believe that you are actually defending someone who is puffed up with such an inflated image of himself. Surely, you don't take his words as a truthful testimony, not of his self-belief, but of the actual facts regarding this young fella's life? Please, remember, the Scriptures don't say that he was this "good", but rather that he only CLAIMED to be this observant of SOME of the Commandments.
sincerely yours because of HIM,
huasheng
To be continued in the next and final part....
Kerri Love replied to Sofa King Johnston:
Why are you displaying a picture of the flag flying backwards?
How disrespectful to God and country.
Funny you should say that. I have a friend in Afghanistan and I noticed the flag he wore was turned this way too so I asked him if it was backwards. Apparently to have the flag displayed this way is called the "battle flag". All military uniforms have the flag facing that way. It might only face that way during times of war, or at all times for military uniforms, I'm not sure about that ;)
Technically, flags don't have a "left" and "right;" they have a "hoist" (the side attached to the flagpole) and "fly" (the side furthest from the flagpole when the flag is flapping in the breeze). When flags of countries whose writing runs from left to right are displayed flat, traditionally the hoist is to the left and the fly to the right (I think it's supposed to be the other way around for Arab flags), permitting any text on the flag to appear the right way around.
On the other hand, when flags are depicted flat on the sides of vehicles, the hoist is supposed to be towards the front of the vehicle, and the fly to the rear (as though they were flying on a staff attached to the vehicle's side). This means that, e.g. a U.S. flag on the starboard side of an airplane is supposed to be depicted with the canton on the top right, not the top left.
Apparently, the same rule applies to flag patches on uniforms: the hoist with the canton is towards the soldier's front, and the fly towards his back; since the flag is displayed on the right shoulder (the right is the side of honor), it is "backwards" as if flying on the shoulder.
I don't know if Ray is intentionally showing the battle flag or not... He might consider himself to be a soldier of God at war with the disbelievers, or he maybe he doesn't know it's the battle flag and just liked the picture...
What say you Ray?
Since the flag in the picture is not painted or hung flat on a wall, but attached to a pole, it is correctly displayed, flying in the breeze with the fly showing wind direction.
Brian in VA said:
I think you grossly oversimply this issue due to a lack of Biblical understanding. The Bible teaches predestination.
Romans 8:29
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
This means that unborn children were predestined to be conformed in Christ's image. Had they been born, they would have remained predestined.
How do you determine that it means that? Now, I can see how this might indicate either individual or corporate predestination (by "corporate," I mean that God predestines that the church will be conformed to the image of the Son, but that God does not predestine who will choose to join the church), but how does it indicate that all unborn children are predestined to be saved?
If the reference is to individual predestination, it might as well mean that some individuals are predestined to damnation even if they die in the womb. For that matter, I don't see that it implies that fetuses even are children, or that fetuses that are miscarried or aborted have any sort of afterlife at all. If there's a biblical argument for the idea that aborted fetuses have souls that go anywhere when they die, it isn't in this passage.
Thanks for the info about the flag Steven J. That does make sense :)
ma huasheng, you said your mother was a Jew? Were you raised under Judaism? What's your conversion story?
huasheng, thanks for your reply. But I don't believe that Ray's "vile worm theology" is the consistent teaching of the Bible, nor is it consistent with a healthy self-image.
Here are instances, in fact, where certain people are considered "blameless."
"This man [Job] was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil." Job 1:1
"But I lead a blameless life; redeem me and be merciful to me." Psalm 26:11
"Both of them [Zechariah and Elisabeth] were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commandments and regulations blamelessly." Luke 1:6
We don't see this universal groveling in the muck over one's imperfection. We can thank the Church for that miserable sentiment.
No Honeybee I wasn't speaking about you specifically ;) some here just like to say that Christians who lost their faith were never Christians to begin with, they were "faking it" and if I remember correctly it was Ray who used that term.
The False Convert said...
Keith...
You are like OJ's defense team and God is your OJ. You can twist it however you like, but your God is evil incarnate.
___
Before you make that assertion you have to demonstrate that evil actually exists. Are you acknowledging that God exists as well as evil, or both don’t exist except as abstract concepts of the human mind? Or does evil exist, but God doesn’t, and therefore you believe that a non-existing beings can be evil incarnate, in which case you still have to prove that evil exists and that non-existing beings can be evil? Good luck.
Greetings, rocksprites, in the NAME which is above every name,
My father, as a young boy, was raised Roman Catholic, but had no use for religion as a teen and adult.
As far as my "Jewishness" goes, my mother and maternal grandmother didn't really practice much Judaism, though my mother grew up in a German Jewish neighborhood (in which i spent much time as a young boy) and they both spoke some Yiddish, and we ate some traditional Jewish food. My mother didn't keep kosher either. I didn't have a Bar Mitzvah, so I'm no "Son of the Commandment", but i can recite in Hebrew from memory the "Shema", and also a typical Jewish blessing before eating ("Baruch atah..."), and additionally, utter (or think) some short Hebrew phrases when praying ("...chaNaNiy Adonai Eliy..." as just one of several examples).
I have a hard time saying that I'm Jewish. Why? No shame (lost one relative in the Holocaust), but I wasn't raised in a religious home, and never set foot in synagogue or a church until I was saved the very first time I heard the Gospel at the age of 20 while studying science at university, over 35y ago. I was an agnostic at the time who didn't even know what Easter was - except for the Easter bunny.
I see being "Jewish" as requiring more culture and religion in one's life than I experienced, rather than just having a "watered down" version of Father Abraham's blood flowing through one's veins (in this case, my veins), and being remotely accustomed to some Jewish customs, growing up hearing some characteristic Jewish sayings (e.g., "Do you ears hear what your mouth is saying?!!", as my mother would say to me when, as a wee lad, I told a "whopper").
I wouldn't dare insult a practicing Jew by claiming to be Jewish myself, and so state it as my mother, maternal grandmother, or maternal ancestors were Jewish.
I hope that this clears up any confusion that I may have caused.
Please, if I've misled you in any way, please know that it was NOT intentional, and I am truly sorry for causing a misunderstanding. I do not wish to come across as something that I am obviously not. Thank you for your understanding.
sincerely yours because of HIM,
huasheng (obviously, a pseudnym - with the proper intonation it means "peanut" in Chinese - a name given to me by some Chinese friends).
Greetings, Hacksaw Duck, in the NAME which is above every name,
HD, thank you - you always seem to be bringing up good points.
Since neither of us probably has time for endless back and forth, and this is probably my last free time to be here for several days at the very least (i return to work tomorrow), I will keep this very short (and NOT convincing).
In short, I would say that too many people (especially some Christians and skeptics) take every word of the Bible far too literally. Not only the Hebrew Bible, but also the Christian New Testament, are both literature, being replete with over 200 different types of rhetorical devices (aka figures of speech - both figures of color, e.g., similar, metaphor, hyperbole, metonymy, idiom, etc., and figures of form, e.g. chiasm, pleonasm, irony, litotes, zeugma, euphemism, rhetorical question, ellipsis, idiom, etc.).
These are perhaps the hardest aspects of Biblical Hermeneutics/interpretation because they often go unnoticed as we read the Scriptures.
Hence, we read the passage in a far too literal manner. Always attempt to interpret, *NOT* just literally, but "literarily", i.e., in accordance with the genre of literature the passage or verse is in, e.g., historical narrative and its subsets, e.g. dialog, sermon, etc, poetry, including Hebrew Wisdom Literature and its various sub-genres [Note: 1/3 of the OT is written in true Hebrew poetic form (more than the length of the entire NT), 32 of the 39 books of the OT contain Hebrew poetry, the NT contains poetry too.] We don't tend to interpret poetry literally - e.g., "There is no frigate like a book to take us worlds away..." - a book isn't our literal means of conveyance to a foreign land or a past time. Apply the same rule consistently when attempting to interpret poetical passages of Scripture is my advice.
[NOTE: these are the two most common genre's of Biblical literature], another being prophecy (both declarative and apocalyptic), etc.]
Also, keep in mind that both the OT and NT are truly JEWISH works. When I read the Scriptures I often "hear", so to speak, my mother, maternal grandmother, and a close former Orthodox friend, now a Christian, speaking. The turn of phrase in many cases is just so Jewish. And, what could be more a stereotypically "Jewish" rhetorical device than HYPERBOLE (exaggeration for the sake of effect, i.e., to drive a point home, but NOT intended to be interpreted precisely literally). Hyperbole is found even in the Apostle Paul's epistles (e.g., in Galatians).
In some of the passages that you cited, hyperbole is involved, in my opinion. I hope this helps some.
sincerely yours because of HIM,
huasheng
Before you make that assertion you have to demonstrate that evil actually exists.
No I don't. All I don't have to prove a thing except that I think you are a lazy Christian douche bag who lines his pockets with the love offerings of gullible, slobbering idiots.
Are you acknowledging that God exists as well as evil, or both don’t exist except as abstract concepts of the human mind? Or does evil exist, but God doesn’t, and therefore you believe that a non-existing beings can be evil incarnate, in which case you still have to prove that evil exists and that non-existing beings can be evil? Good luck.
Nope. I think that good and evil have nothing to do with Gods or Satan, etc. They are words used to describe behaviors. And according to the behaviors they describe, your God is a lot like Fred Phelps. If Fred had the power to wipe out populations he would most certainly use it.
I guess your problem, and I can't blame you for it because your a simpleton, Christianized, mooching mountebank, is that you believe that the opposite of evil is God. that the only thing good is your God. Well... that's quaint.
I think you're a fool. I'm merely pointing it out to you.
Honeybee said, “But I have something you don't have, and that is a personal relationship with the Lord.”
Honeybee, could you describe the definition of “personal relationship”? Do you actually talk to Jesus? And by "talk" I mean actually form words with your mouth as you exhale and cause vibrations in the air that others could hear? Do you physically see him? Physically touch him? Since it is a relationship, I assume Jesus at least talks back. Is it a physical sound that you hear (that others would hear if they were there)? Does he physically appear and touch you? Okay, if it is not a physical conversation, what is it then? Do you have the conversation in your mind? Do you mentally ask actual question in your mind and hear the answers directly, either physically or mentally? Do you "carry on a conversation" in your head, where your words and Jesus’ words are distinctly different? Or is it more of a "feeling in your heart" where you pray or talk, then have inspired thoughts as a result?
Honeybee,
having reread both of our posts, I see where the difficulty comes from.
you wrote "if Christians deliberately commit sin, they will suffer the consequences in their life"
to which I answered "and obeying the command not to sin anymore, Christians will not suffer consequences in life"
In this sense, a Christian who does not sin deliberately does not suffer consequences for it (what about indeliberate sin then?). Now if not accepting God or the existence of God is already a sin (if that's how the Ten Commandments are to be interpreted, which seems very clear to me), then a non-Christian has no chance of not committing a sin, no matter what he does otherwise. Whilst a Christian who has accepted the payment by Jesus's blood (the sense of which is being discussed here my several other people, so I don't want to open another can there) is absolved for his sins. The core of my question was to get behind the reasoning that or if this payment would absolve of indeliberate (involuntary) sins just as of deliberate sin, and if this salvation cannot be taken away how does repentance figure into this. Expressing it differently, what impact does the given and accepted salvation have on judgment? If someone is in danger of hellfire even after being saved it makes no sense to speak of irreversible salvation. But if being saved means that there is no longer any danger of hellfire, then why is repentance needed for something done after being saved? Or, if having been saved was only an illusion (false conversion), how would someone know that if maybe his only sin after that is not within his memory or awareness? These basically are the questions I was trying to figure out. Call me foolish for wanting to understand the logical sense out of it all before accepting it.
"Please, if I've misled you in any way, please know that it was NOT intentional, and I am truly sorry for causing a misunderstanding. I do not wish to come across as something that I am obviously not. Thank you for your understanding."
Oh no, don't worry. I was only curious.
Dave B asked: "Honeybee.....Do you actually talk to Jesus? And by "talk" I mean actually form words with your mouth as you exhale and cause vibrations in the air that others could hear?"
Hi Dave,
Yes, I do talk to Jesus with words that "others" could hear.....It's called prayer.
.
Felix said: "In this sense, a Christian who does not sin deliberately does not suffer consequences for it (what about indeliberate sin then?)."
Sorry Felix, I do not understand what you are saying. But I can tell you this, sin is sin and it has consequences. I could give you some graphic examples, but that probably isn't necessary. You can probably think of several on your own.
The things to remember are that the "wages of sin is death." AND, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
Felix said: "Now if not accepting God or the existence of God is already a sin (if that's how the Ten Commandments are to be interpreted, which seems very clear to me), then a non-Christian has no chance of not committing a sin, no matter what he does otherwise. Whilst a Christian who has accepted the payment by Jesus's blood (the sense of which is being discussed here my several other people, so I don't want to open another can there) is absolved for his sins."
Felix,
I would say that your statement above is quite accurate. That is why Christians try to diligently spread the Good News. I would say that is probably why Ray spends so many hours on this blog.
Felix asked: "The core of my question was to get behind the reasoning that or if this payment would absolve of indeliberate (involuntary) sins just as of deliberate sin, and if this salvation cannot be taken away how does repentance figure into this. Expressing it differently, what impact does the given and accepted salvation have on judgment?"
Felix,
Now you are getting into the realm of rewards. Christians will not all be given the same rewards even though they cannot lose their salvation. That is a rather deep subject that I do not think is right for you at this time.
Felix said: "If someone is in danger of hellfire even after being saved it makes no sense to speak of irreversible salvation."
Felix,
Not one Christian is in danger of "hellfire." They are all firmly in the care of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Felix said: "But if being saved means that there is no longer any danger of hellfire, then why is repentance needed for something done after being saved?
Felix,
Repentance is needed because sins, both deliberate and not deliberate, effect a Christian's "walk" with the Lord.
Felix said: "Or, if having been saved was only an illusion (false conversion), how would someone know that if maybe his only sin after that is not within his memory or awareness? These basically are the questions I was trying to figure out. Call me foolish for wanting to understand the logical sense out of it all before accepting it."
Felix,
Your questions are OUTSTANDING. I'm just sorry that I cannot do them justice in this one post.
I would like to end this by saying that if you sincerely accept the Lord as your Savior, there is no way that it can be a (false conversion).
Blessing to you, Felix.
.
Honeybee,
thanks for your answer. It's good to know that I understood a few things correctly. So, I guess I'll be pondering some more for a while. All the best to you and your loved ones. :)
Honeybee, you spoke very briefly on this and I don't want to put you on the spot, but could you point me to scripture that describes the different rewards? I think I understand what you mean by this but I've never actually looked into it.
You were speaking of there will be some form of hierarchy in heaven if you will, right? You may correct me if I'm wrong but I think this fits with the use of the word "kingdom" when describing heaven as heaven would have that kind of Nobel hierarchy with God as King and Jesus as Prince...
Someone here once asked what heaven would be like and this totally slipped my mind. That heaven is a "kingdom". I don't think there is much description on what people would actually do in this kingdom afterlife but it does shed some small light on the subject.
Angels have some form of hierarchy as well, do they not or is that a catholic teaching only?
Honeybee said:
"You say you "accepted Christ" as your Savior at the age of fourteen. Are you sure about that???"
At this point in my life, I really don't care. I have studied anthropology at the graduate level and in so doing, took many courses in evolution. I have also taken many courses in the humanities at both the undergraduate and graduate levels and in the course of my studies, I became more and more convinced that religion (including Christianity) is man-made. Whether I was or wans't a Christian in the past is of no concern to me. You asked me if I knew the Bible and I said yes I did. I have studied it and I reject its teachings.
Honeybee responded to my list of questions with "Yes, I do talk to Jesus with words that "others" could hear.....It's called prayer."
Well, Honeybee, I sincerely asked you several very simple questions and you answered only one. I can safely assume, then, that all the other questions I asked you can be answered with a “no”. In other words, your “relationship” with Jesus is one-way only and completely in your mind.
Thanks!
Keith assesses:
"Who cares what people live or die or are murdered or suffer. The universe certainly doesn’t care. Why do you?"
Keith, you just exemplified reason 1321 why I will never be a Christian or Muslim etc...
If you can't experience empathy, compassion, consideration or even awe at the rare and precious thing called 'life - if you can't extend compassion and respect towards other living things unless you have a concept of a rewarding/punishing Daddy in the sky...then to me you seem like a selfish nihilistic sociopath.
The Pledge of Allegiance is idolatry. It was written by a Socialist named Francis Bellamy. It is appropriate that the U.S. flag is always put ABOVE the Christian flag when it is flown on the same pole. I say this because we are looking to government to solve our problems and not God. (This includes Repubs with their war-making and their socialist prescription drug plan and their socialist Medicare Advantage plan as well as the Dems' "public option" and etc.) Stop worshiping a PIECE OF CLOTH. Stop worshiping government!
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