"Sometimes Ray makes me angry, or annoyed, flabbergasted or concerned for his mental health. But all in all, he is a good man. I wouldn't torture him, make him feel like a horrible useless little sinful piece of garbage, or arbitrarily destroy him on a meteorological whim. I wouldn't call him names or accuse him of greed. My gut is that Ray's not all that bad. Probably. Steve."
I’m glad you used the word "probably." It shows that you think that you could be wrong about me being a good man. And, you are. Big time. I’m not a good man, and I am "all that bad." A "good" man loves the God who gave him life--with all of his heart, mind, soul, and strength. He also loves every other human being as much as he loves himself. A good man never lusts after women, or has a selfish or unclean thought sexual though. He is perfect, in thought, word, and in deed.
By human definition of the word "good," I may be good. But man's definition is very low. God’s is very high, and it’s by His perfect standard of goodness that we will be judged on Judgment day. Definitely.
No doubt this will make you angry, annoyed, flabbergasted and very concerned about my mental health. This is because you don’t understand God’s terrible justice, neither do you understand His amazing mercy. You and I may be a "sinful piece of garbage," but it is on that garbage that God set His love, and suffered and died to cleanse us of our filth.
Sunday, July 5, 2009
A Valued Piece of Garbage
104 comments:
So by "good," you mean "morally and spiritually perfect." By that standard, no one should ever be called "good" in the Bible, right?
OK, so why is Barnabas called "a good man" in Acts 11:24? Why are other people in the Bible called "good" without qualifiers? Flip through a concordance and you'll see that "good" is applied to imperfect humans in many places.
No doubt this will make you angry, annoyed, flabbergasted and very concerned about my mental health. This is because you don’t understand God’s terrible justice, neither do you understand His amazing mercy. You and I may be a "sinful piece of garbage," but it is on that garbage that God set His love, and suffered and died to cleanse us of our filth.
Not angry. Speak for yourself about the piece of garbage though. I don't consider myself garbage. I am noticing that your God isn't very efficient in anything he does. He routinely seeks out the path of greatest resistance with the zeal of a dung beetle searching for the perfect pile to wallow in.
And the reason no one can understand God's terrible justice is because it defies understanding. My favorite example of God's terrible justice is Second Kings 2:23, 24, where he sends out the she-bears to maim children for the horrid crime of making fun of Elisha's bald head.
I agree with you. His justice is terrible. Stupid and terrible. If he was an elected official he'd be impeached ages ago.
I hope you don't chicken out of the debate with Thunderf00t, or pull some other last minute stunt like not allowing it to be filmed so that you can spin your own side of the story, because I don't believe Tf00t will let you ignore important points to cover minor points in depth(as you so often do here).
That's part of the reason why I don't think you will show; on this blog you can easily avoid every question that will cast light on your smoke and mirrors, but that won't be easy when going up against an opponent as formidable as Tf00t.
Psychologically, the worse a person thinks of himself, the more likely he is to think likewise of others. This leads directly to behaving callous, condescending, unjust, unloving, apathetic or downright sociopathic towards other people. Is that why we ostensibly need God to command us to love?
Abrahamitic faith developed from earlier faiths which strongly relied on ostensibly divine laws, embodied in the commands of priests and priest-kings, the highest in ancient social hierarchy. Ancient myths are brim full of very detailed descriptions of the direct consequences of this philosophy. Once people realized the ultimately self-destructive consequences, they devised the idea that a command to love one's own would somewhat remedy the situation, as evidently the old ways of doing things had brought only defeat, subjugation, and cultural and economic stagnation. This stagnation ensured the continued power of the clerical and divinely blessed royal castes, but did nothing to improve the lot of the people.
Back to the psychological aspects. There are two possibilities to overcome these sociopathic tendencies. The first is rebuild the person after demolishing him, which for example military training units have recognized as a useful tool, to get soldiers who blindly obey orders without questioning (surrendering their free will). As I understand, this is what Ray embraces as the correct way to face and to function under God's law. The problem with that is that this renders a person defenseless against arbitrarily sociopathic, insane, useless or nonsensical commands, however absolute they may be labeled. I don't need to point out all the specific historical and current examples of people who employed this insight to considerably grave ends, from antiquity through feudalism and the Thirty Years War to the horrors of the 20th century.
The second way is to rebuild the person into a compassionate, emphatic, self-conscious, confident, thoughtful, informed and moral member of society. This is for instance what psychological counseling and therapy is for - which is also precisely the reason why organisations like Scientology vehemently oppose psychology and humanism. They want drones, not personalities. They embrace censorship, totalitarian control, disinformation and social partitioning.
I think every individual human should very carefully consider which side he is on and why. Don't let liars and myths try to control your thoughts.
...I am "all that bad." A good man never lusts after women, or has a selfish or unclean thought sexual though. He is perfect, in thought, word, and in deed.
That would make you guilty of the sin of "pride," related to the sin of excessive scrupulosity.
No you don't get a "Get out of Jail for Free Card" because you keep saying a certain thing, regardless of what you believe.
I’m not a good man, and I am "all that bad."
Why then should anyone listen to you? You are a self professed bad man... this could all be deception to serve your own wicked ends. This also goes to your promotional materials, there are the interpetations of a bad man.
Ray said...
"You and I may be a "sinful piece of garbage," but it is on that garbage that God set His love, and suffered and died to cleanse us of our filth."
God made us in His image. Why did He make garbage?
If God is perfect and all knowing, why would he bother to create us in the first place?
If he's real...
He already knew what would happen. He knew we would be garbage because he gave us desires but didn't give us the capacity to completely understand the consequences.
What was missing in his existence that he needed to create us, only to eventually punish most of us?
Ray, I'm not a piece of garbage, and neither are you.
Lurker said...
Ray said...
"You and I may be a "sinful piece of garbage," but it is on that garbage that God set His love, and suffered and died to cleanse us of our filth."
God made us in His image. Why did He make garbage?
___
God made us intelligent, creative, moral creatures, with free will because He is intelligent, creative, moral and free.
When man perverted the image of God and acted immoral, He took what God made holy and made himself into something sinful (garbage). God didn’t make you sinful, but he can forgive you of your sin, and the garbage in your life (the love of sin, that hatred of righteousness), and he can make you into a new creation and change your heart so that you might love Him and love others. That’s your choice.
The False Convert said...
Not angry. Speak for yourself about the piece of garbage though. I don't consider myself garbage.
___
I'm sure Hitler didn't consider himself garbage either. What matters more, what you think of yourself, or what God thinks of you?
Since all humans are 'all that bad' and therefore risk eternal damnation in Hell then isn't it best for unborn children to be aborted? They do go to Heaven, right? If so then why the desire to end abortion? Each abortion ends with eternal salvation in Heaven.
Or is sin attached to a person at the moment of conception? If so then God is not just.
Christian theology makes no sense.
Greetings, Hacksaw Duck, in the NAME which is above every name,
You raise some very good points in your Posts. You come across as a very clear thinker and are obviously familiar with the Scriptures.
As far as Acts 11.24 goes, there actually is a "qualifier" concerning Barnabas.
Anyone with at least a second year knowledge of New Testament Greek will be familiar with the following information.
In the Koine ["common"] Greek dialect in which the New Testament Scriptures were penned, the common greek CONNECTIVE conjunction translated "and" (transliterated into English characters as "kai") does NOT always have a simple connective sense, such as connecting a list of items together (e.g., "When I go backpacking, I'm going to bring a tent, and a sleeping bag, and a lightweight alcohol stove, and..."). Sometimes "kai" has what is termed in Greek Exegesis as an EPEXEGETICAL or EXPLANATORY use. That is, what follows the "kai" is NOT simply connnective in nature (connnecting what comes before the "kai" with what comes after it). Sometimes the "kai" explains what comes before it in the sentence by providing more information.
In these case, an epexegetical/explanatory "kai" could be translated (to more fully convey the force and intent of the Greek, i.e. to provide the sense of meaning that a native speaker of Koine Greek dialect would have understood) as "that is" or "that is to say".
So, in the case of Barnabas, a better understanding would be to take the "kai" to be epexegetical in nature and read Ac11.24 as follows, "for he was a good man, that is to say, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith...". This explains why Barnabas was "good". He yielded himself to the control of the Holy Spirit of God, and the Holy Spirit produced the fruit of the Spirit (cf. Galatians 5.22-23) in him, which is the character of the Lord Jesus Christ, and he lived, by the power of the Holy Spirit a life of faith.
So, you see this is the reason why Barnabas is called "good" (agathos - a word which often has a very strong semantic meaning in greek) is that he was "full" (i.e., "controlled", e.g. we might say one is "full of rage", i.e. he was controlled by rage, or "full of fear" - you get the idea), "he was full/controlled by the Holy Spirit and faith" [Please, not here "kai" is clearly connective in nature and used in the sense that we normally use "and" in English. Why? Two nouns are used "Holy Spirit" and "faith".]
I hope this explanation helps you to understand this verse more clearly.
As always any truth in my above words is the product of the God's Holy Spirit of Truth; any error is purely my own.
sincerely ours because of HIM,
huasheng
Ray,
You're not garbage.
You have worth and value.
You aren't worthy to be burned or tortured for a second, let alone an eternity.
And I'm not angry, flabbergasted, or annoyed. But I am concerned.
You deserve better than what your God tells you.
Sounds like you are in an abusive relationship.
Let us not forget: we are the individuals that make the choice to do wrong. You can't blame anybody else. We don’t do good; we are selfish, lazy, lairs that would rather indulge ourselves and hurt others than do good works.
Don't believe me?
Read the majority of the posts on this blog. And what is Ray doing so wrong? Trying to help others (note: that does not make him a good person). What are you doing? Hurting others; trying to make people stumble; and attempting to justify yourselves.
God help you all!
The False Convert said:
My favorite example of God's terrible justice is Second Kings 2:23, 24, where he sends out the she-bears to maim children for the horrid crime of making fun of Elisha's bald head.
Jesus says in Luke 6:35 that "...you will be children of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked." Jesus came to reveal the truth about God and set the record straight. Before He came, there were a lot of misconceptions about God's true nature. That's why, to really understand God, it is best to go to the Gospels (Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John) and get the straight story directly from Jesus (God Himself).
Oh, I almost forgot. I have a question for you Ray. Is Terry right, no one who finds evolution to be credible can be a true Christian?
There is no one good but God. What is so hard to believe in the words: "There is none righeous, no not one; there is in none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all gone out of the way. They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." ?
The truth is that: "Though they join forces, the wicked will not go unpunished; but the posterity of the righteous shall be delivered."
No amount of "good works" that you perform are going to erase the evil that you have already committed. Jesus took your place in the punishment you deserve. No matter how unfair your life or this world seems to be set up for you to fail, the fact that God demonstrated His love toward you in that while you were a sinner, Christ died for you. More than that, He rose from the dead conquering death and now promises that those who live and believe in Him will never die.
I would never think to compare you to God Ray. Your a good "person" not a god after all. If I say you're a good person, I'd be comparing you to people. I think in order to compare someone to God, they'd have to be a god themselves.
On a funny note, I was watching a movie last night and there was a "christian" girl being portrayed. She told someone they were a good person and I yelled back at the TV "No one is good, not one" ...just for you...She must not have been a "true" Christian.
And yes, I'm nutz...I yell at my TV at the time ;)
Well I'm glad you think God's Justice is terrible. I think you will find many who agree.
I guess all those ancient kings and rulers who liked their subjects to grovel and proclaim how unworthy they were in comparison to their rulers was just them trying to emulate God right? I think a few of those rulers actually thought they were gods. In light of that, I think God sets a very bad example for such people.
I still can't bring myself to compare myself and humanity to God. I think doing such things should be a sin and it seems somewhat prideful to make such a comparison.
I don't understand how Christians get all upset when they see humans being compared to other apes... if you can compare yourself to God, why would any type of comparison bother you at that point?
If you think that calling humans apes and comparing the two is insulting, I can only imagine how God must feel when humans compare themselves to him.
I hope you don't chicken out of the debate with Thunderf00t
Ray is debating? When?
Why then should anyone listen to you? You are a self professed bad man... this could all be deception to serve your own wicked ends.
is this the best you can come up with Wait What? Might you like to offer up a genuine pearl of your wisdom here and speculate for us just what exactly Ray's end-game might be?
Greetings, Hacksaw Duck, in the NAME which is above every name,
I forgot to mention previously that nearly all words have what is known as a semantic range of meaning. This is true even in English. To illustrate: a carpenter, after setting a nail, can drive it with one stroke of his hammer, but a woman would never call a carpenter to do her nails, and have you ever heard a student say "I really nailed that test", or a hockey player after a particularly vicious check exclaim, "I really nailed him".
Now, this is a somewhat simple, and perhaps childish on my part, example of a semantic range of meaning. However, in your case, given your obvious intelligence and education, can easily take this "ball", so to speak, and "run with it". You will undoubtedly think of even better examples.
This semantic range of meaning applies even to words used in the Bible. The same word does NOT always have the exact same precise semantics. We allow for such in both English literature and in our own speech. We need to attempt to recognize this same fact when we come to read that greatest of all pieces of literature, the Holy Bible.
Furthermore, words always get their intended meaning (i.e., what portion of their semantic range is intented) from the phrase, clause, or sentence in which they are found. Words alone do NOT have meaning. Even the very simple sentence "Behold" (in the imperative mood) has a "You-Understood" subject. Hence, we know that, if we are the one being addressed, that we ought to look or behold some event or something.
Please also keep this fact in mind when you read the Scriptures. One verse's use of a specific word may NOT mean precisely what it means in another verse. Hence, "good" may be used in an absolute sense when applied to God "Why callest thou me good, there is none good but God", Christ said. Here Christ was saying that if you don't recognize me as the Son of God, why are you calling me "good". By the way, "good" here is the same greek word as in Ac11.24 (transliterated into English characters as "agathos" in its lexical form). See, Christ was perfectly "good" (He said elsewhere, "which of you convicts me of sin", i.e., "which of you can name a single sin that I've committed"), whereas, even though often filled/controlled by the Holy Spirit, Barnabas was NOT absolutely "good".
Hope these words help to explain some important points WE ALL should keep in mind as we prayerfully read the Scriptures, relying on the Spirit of Truth to guide us into all truth.
sincerely ours because of HIM,
huasheng
к∑ⅰ₮ｻ said in response to false converts declaration of non garbageness:
"I'm sure Hitler didn't consider himself garbage either. What matters more, what you think of yourself, or what God thinks of you?"
Actually what fictional characters are imagined to think of me really doesn't matter. My self opinion is certainly worth more than that of God or Mr. Belvedere or Scooby Doo, or any other made up being.
It is putting the cart before the horse to say that God or Scooby think I am garbage without demonstrating that God or Scooby exist in the first place.
However I have more than my self estimation (although that is surely the most important), I also have a good reputation with all who know me (including many who I admire.) In fact outside of Evangelical types I have never been compared to garbage. So if I don't think I am garbage and no one who knows me thinks I am garbage, but your imaginary friend does. I am inclined, due to weight of evidence, to proclaim that the fiction you are basing your imaginary friend on is the thing most likely to be garbage.
Jesus says in Luke 6:35 that "...you will be children of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked." Jesus came to reveal the truth about God and set the record straight. Before He came, there were a lot of misconceptions about God's true nature. That's why, to really understand God, it is best to go to the Gospels (Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John) and get the straight story directly from Jesus (God Himself).
That's an interesting point, although you completely sidestepped my question. And you opened up quite a big can of worms.
Are you saying that the OT is not to be trusted? That it isn't the inspired word of God? Is the entire OT a pack of lies? Does that mean you think everything from Genesis to Malachi is untrue?
That doesn't really say much about your God, now does it. Not only can't he get his creation right the first time (not very perfect, if you ask me), he also can't get his revealed and inspired word right the first time.
Wow...
I'm sure Hitler didn't consider himself garbage either. What matters more, what you think of yourself, or what God thinks of you?
So Keith... Are you comparing me to Hitler? If that's the case then I'll compare you to L.Ron Hubbard...
It makes just as little sense...
As for your question. What I think about myself and what the people I deal with on a daily basis means something to me. What a fictional caricature that mid-eastern primitives dreamed up and modern primitives still cling to means absolutely nothing to me.
Hey Killian...
What's a lazy lair?
God help you all!
That's a lovely sentiment. But I'm sorry to inform you that your God doesn't exist. Never did. Never will. So your plea is just as impotent as your imaginary fiend.
Ray's view of himself in post reminds me of an anorexic person who no matter how thin she gets, she still sees herself as overweight. No matter how much good Ray does, he will always see himself as a terrible sinner.
now now .
False convert
i thought you don't believe in God .
So to you 2 king 2 : 24 could not be an act of God right ?
You should be angry with the she-bear who kill the children right ?
When Elisha curse the children . God just lift up his hand of protection from the children .
Lesson : Don't be a mocker . God hate that !!
Steve
We are all wretched, wicked, and sinfully rotten to the core. (Some can put on a good front and even deceive themselves that they are good enough.)
Our worth and value to others is subjective and doesn't mean very much, but to God our worth and value is infinite. Why else would He die for us?
We all deserve to be eternally judged before a Holy God and even cast from His presence in a place called Hell for all of eternity because of our sin.
We should be angry, flabbergasted, annoyed and concerned with our own sin and fall to our knees and cry out to the only One who can save us.
We deserve nothing from God because of our sin, but in His infinite grace and mercy He offers everlasting life in Jesus Christ.
We were designed to have a relationship with our Creator. To be His child and to acknowledge Him as our God. It's what we are made for and there is no other relationship on earth that can compare. Only if you knew the joys of the Lord would you agree. Know the Lord.
JD Curtis said...
I hope you don't chicken out of the debate with Thunderf00t
Ray is debating? When?
Why then should anyone listen to you? You are a self professed bad man... this could all be deception to serve your own wicked ends.
is this the best you can come up with Wait What? Might you like to offer up a genuine pearl of your wisdom here and speculate for us just what exactly Ray's end-game might be?
Why speculate on the motive of a bad man... I doubt his motives are good? However you may feel free to speculate on what Mr. Comfort self professed bad man true intentions are...
Kerri,
Jesus said, "Be holy as I am holy" so we HAVE to compare ourselves to Jesus (God), unbelievers should compare themselves to Him to see how sinful they really are and how sinless He was here on Earth. It's a win-win.
O.T.bad, N.T.good folks,
It's all the same book. God didn't cut it in half so He's the mean old God of the Old Testament, and Jesus is the loving, forgive everybody nice God of the New Testament.
Jesus Himself said He was there in the beginning with God (and that was testified to by Moses and John), so when you make assertions that you don't want to have anything to do with that horrible God of the O.T., you are saying Jesus is all those things as well.
Genesis tells the beginning, and written about fifteen hundred years later, Revelation wraps it up. Psalms tells of a loving, fair, judging God, Jesus comes in the flesh as that loving God, and WILL judge. Promises made to the Israelites in the O.T. are either kept or reiterrated in Romans and Revelation.
God's commands for righteousness are given in the O.T. and fulfilled through Christ and Him in us in the N.T.
If there were not O.T./N.T. distinctions made (by man) than it would be the true and consice message as God gave it.
By the way that little children the bible talk about range from 20 years old downwards .
(God said:) "The carcasses of you who have murmured against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above." (Num 14.29)
Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there [to the Promised Land]; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it. (Deu 1.39)
Everyone included among those who are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering to the Lord. (Exod 30.14)
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities (i.e. sin), like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64:6
Genesis
In the beginning there was nothing. God said, “Let there be light” and lots of things appeared. How do we know there was nothing if all the lights were off?
http://www.thebeginners.net
...not FOR beginners, but BY beginners...
Hacksaw Duck said...
So by "good," you mean "morally and spiritually perfect." By that standard, no one should ever be called "good" in the Bible, right?
OK, so why is Barnabas called "a good man" in Acts 11:24? Why are other people in the Bible called "good" without qualifiers? Flip through a concordance and you'll see that "good" is applied to imperfect humans in many places.
Mister Duck, (can I call you, "Hacksaw"?)
Sure, Barnabas and others are called "good" yet the Bible also says there is no man that does good.(Romans 3:12) There are none who are righteous. No contradiction there because of the relationship in which the word "good" is being used. (The context is the qualifier, btw).
Don't you think that maybe, just maybe, Ray is using "good" here in a sense that will lead into a word about the gospel? You know, God saving wicked people and making them into something "good"? Conformed to the image of His Son, in fact.
Craig B
Greetings, Mr. Comfort, in the NAME which is above every name,
Given that fact that abusive and/or objectionable language, etc., cannot be permitted in a Blog of this nature (something to which I heartily agree with you on - not that it matters much - it is, afterall, your Blog), the following request may simply not be possible.
I would very much like to dialog in a more interactive atmosphere with some of the atheists and skeptics who participate on this Blog. By its very nature a Blog format is limiting in this regard.
Can you think of any way of having a slightly more interactive "Forum" / "Bulletin Board" type of format? This is obviously problematic, as all need to "monitor" themselves, and be civil and abide by the rules. Admins & Mods can only delete Posts or "ban" the unruly and disobedient AFTER the fact.
However, given the fact that Atheists claim that they can be moral without God, I would think that they would try to live up to that claim by NOT being abusive or obscene in their Postings. Failure to do so would speak badly of their claims to be moral. It goes without saying that Christians had better ALWAYS abide by the rules as well.
Some Internet forums (one of the largest being CandlePowerForums aka CPF) are quite well moderated and civil in nature, being a "family" forum (as CPF claims to be). "Canned", so to speak, Bulletin Board software is available - many BBS's, as they are known, use the same version of software. Sorry, I don't know anything specific, technically speaking, in this regard.
Please give this thought some consideration. So much more could be done with scheduled formal online debates (text or audio) between yourself and skeptics, or even include Todd or Mark, or other highly trained apologists and scientists "squaring off", so to speak against the other side.
Interactive audio chat would be even better, but bandwidth intensive. However, limiting the number in any one discussion might make audio possible. For me this would be fantastic (my ethnic gift of the gab) to be able to engage one or two others at one time in actual audible conversation.
Perhaps an "experimental" phase could be attempted. Up front, let it be known that for one or two weeks, or for a month, some new form of communication will be experimented with - no promises of continuance.
Just a thought.
Many thanks for your Blog - it glorifies the Lord.
sincerely yours because of HIM,
huasheng
Ray said, "God...suffered and died to cleanse us of our filth."
So Nietzsche was right after all? God is dead?
Greetings, DBW, in the NAME which is above every name,
You wrote, "Ray's view of himself in post reminds me of an anorexic person who no matter how thin she gets, she still sees herself as overweight. No matter how much good Ray does, he will always see himself as a terrible sinner."
Sometime read Isaiah chapter 6, beginning with the very first verse. You will see an interesting comparison between Isaiah's view of himself and Mr. Comfort's. I'll keep my expostition very brief - there is so much in this chapter to comment on.
Isaiah was clearly the foremost prophet at that time. Judah, the southern kingdom, was ruled by a king for 52years. Imagine how people looked up to that king who reigned so long. He had died, and in the year of his death Isaiah had a vision of the Lord.
Only after seeing this vision of the HOLY Lord did Isaiah, a devoted and obedient prophet, see himself clearly as an unclean sinner. What did Isaiah do? Using his prophetic office, which involved both "weal" (i.e., the pronouncement of blessing from the Lord as God gave him utterance) and "woe" (i.e., the pronouncement of curse or judgement as God gave him utterance), Isaiah pronounces the "Woe" upon *HIMSELF*!!!
You see, as Mr. Comfort has pointed out so many times very clearly, we are judging ourselves by the wrong standard - a manmade standard, consisting largely of comparing ourselves against others.
Only when we see the Lord clearly will we see ourselves clearly.
Only then will the distinct difference between our wrongly perceived "goodness" and God's true holiness and perfection be clearly apprehended.
Only then will we humble ourselves and realize, as did the great prophet Isaiah, that we are only worthy of God's consuming judgement.
Only then will we reach, as the "drowning" (sorry for the mixed metaphor) person that we are, for God's "floatation device", so to speak, of salvation which is only found in Jesus Christ the Lord. [Note: Mr. Comfort uses the metaphor of a parachute in this regard.]
Only then will we be saved and overflow with gratitude from our hearts for His grace, for His underserved, unmerited favor in giving us eternal life through faith in the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
It may seem like true Bible believing Christians have a poor self-image, or low self-esteem because they see themselves in the light of God's perfect holiness.
In reality, how can we have such?
For we ALSO see ourselves as individuals for whom Christ has shed His blood, and as individuals who have been "adopted" (a Biblical term) into God's family, having an inheritance in heaven. If God and Christ thought of us as being "worth", so to speak (i wish i had a better term to use, but one escapes me at the moment), His blood, then who am I to have a poor self-image or low self-esteem when God and Christ considered me to be one for whom Christ would willingly choose to die for? [Note: Here, I speak of, and am emphasizing, the redemptive aspect of Christ's Atoning work on the cross, and NOT the propiating aspect of that very same work of Salvation.]
I hope that these poor words of mine help you and others to understand these truths more clearly.
sincerely yours because of HIM,
huasheng
@Ray--
By human definition of the word "good," I may be good. But man's definition is very low. God’s is very high, and it’s by His perfect standard of goodness that we will be judged on Judgment day. Definitely.
***
Ray, I am convinced that atheism is true. However, I admit that I could definitely be wrong.
My question to you is: Is there any possibility at all--however remote--that you're wrong about your religion?
Is there any possibility at all that you're wrong when you insist that you're going to fly like a bird in the Rapture, or that the very first woman came out of a rib?
To felix ,
Third what it was said( the bible) is true and indeed there is a judgement await .
Don't let liars and myths try to control your thoughts.
Lurker said...
Ray said...
"You and I may be a "sinful piece of garbage," but it is on that garbage that God set His love, and suffered and died to cleanse us of our filth."
God made us in His image. Why did He make garbage?
Hi Lurker
He did not.
God made the first man and woman good. He gave them free will to remain good or to do evil. They opted for evil and became separated from God.
Through the Lord Jesus Christ you can be reconnected to God's goodness for eternity or separated from God for eternity, which is eternal torment. Heaven or Hell.
Jesus promised "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24
God Bless. Neil.
To wait what :
ok so you don't trust a bad person . will you listen to Jesus ?
John 8:46
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
The False Convert said...well...a lot of hate-filled comments about God and His justice. I really don't want to quote him.
False Convert, regarding your post that concerned female bears mauling the youths that ridiculed Elisha, there are ways to respond. However, seeing as you have no intention of understanding the passage, I feel no way inclinded to provide an explanation. To me, it is clear you are not seeking answers.
It seems your only intention is to make as many shocking and outrageous claims as you can, so you look like a big man in front of your anti-God friends. Forget about being a Dawkings wannabe or a junior Hitchens and actually think about what comes out of your mouth.
Kind of makes you wonder doesn't it? If bears would maul youths that ridiculed Gods holy prophet, what wrath will be poured out on those who blasphemously ridicule God Himself?
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap (Gal 6:7). God has warned you False Convert that every word you speak will be called into account when you stand before Him...alone.(Mat 12:36).
Remember False Convert, I wouldn't have responded if I didn't care about your life and eternal destiny. You've heard the gospel here on Rays blog. What is your decision?
Thanks for listening.
Quoted... I wouldn't call him names or accuse him of greed.
Yet that is exactly what every atheist here has done. Quite hypocritical even if you don't ask me.
Ray, thank you for hosting this blog. Though I have been a Christian for about 13 years I was extremely disobedient for most of them, and only have returned much like the prodigal son in the last five years.
This blog opens up an entire group of people that burden my heart for and to read some of their posts terrify my as to what judgment they may face here and in eternity.
What I do not understand from most of those who post a response is why they post in such a hateful manner? I mean I really do understand why (sin makes all men capable of all wickedness) but it astounds me that they so openly attack.
I think that the last post from dbw is right on though they do not understand what they say. Yes we constantly feel less than perfect because we are less than perfect. Until we lay down this flesh at the end of our life and take up the perfection of ourselves in eternity we will always be less than perfect because of sin. The closer you come to the light, the more dirt you are able to see. Some of the most godly men I have ever read about, considered themselves to be the least among men and Paul himself said the same, he called himself the chief among sinners.
God bless Ray, continue to endure and know that despite the stones they throw, despite the shouts to "crucify him" consider it a blessing to be persecuted as was our Lord, Jesus.
David Stahlman
The False Convert said: "That's a lovely sentiment. But I'm sorry to inform you that your God doesn't exist. Never did. Never will. So your plea is just as impotent as your imaginary fiend."
I just hope you're 100% sure of that. I also hope you realize that everything you know is only a grain in a vast ocean of sand.
The False Convert said: "That's a lovely sentiment. But I'm sorry to inform you that your God doesn't exist. Never did. Never will. So your plea is just as impotent as your imaginary fiend."
I just hope you're 100% sure of that. I also hope you realize that everything you know is only a grain in a vast ocean of sand.
I know that the only thing we really know is that there is a lot more to know than we think we know.
I'm not 100% certain that there is no God. I'm not 100% that there are no pink unicorns. I AM 100% certain that the stories in your Bible are not true. That the God of your Bible doesn't exist.
But even if for some odd reason, you are correct I wouldn't touch your sadistic, sophomoric and incompetent God with a 20 foot cattle prod.
I know you long for the days when you could just kill or torture those that don't believe your fairy tale. Now your reduced to the pitiful, "what if?"
Well... What if you get to the end of your days and realize you wasted so much of your time worshiping a figment of your imagination?
Try something else. Scare tactics no longer work...
now now .
False convert
i thought you don't believe in God .
You are correct. I don't believe in your God. I can't say for sure if there isn't some kind of deity out there, but I know it's not the whining self-obsessed, sadist you bow down to daily...
So to you 2 king 2 : 24 could not be an act of God right ?
So typically Christian of you... Please leave logic to the grown ups. I don't believe in your God. You do. I pointed out the fact that your God has a sick fetish for killing his creation. At least that's what the book you claim is absolute truth says. Your book says it was an act of your God. Your silly bit of spinning doesn't change that. Why does your God love to kill people. Babies. Old People. Pregnant women... He's just awful.
You should be angry with the she-bear who kill the children right ?
Your English is really quite atrocious. I hope it's not your first language. That would be sad.
No. I'm not mad at the fictional she-bears sent by your fictional creator to murder children. I am pointing out that according to your book, your God is a real piece of work.
When Elisha curse the children . God just lift up his hand of protection from the children .
That's not what your book says. I love how you Christianized marks claim that the Bible is inspired yet you all add your own bits to try to make some sense out of it.
Lesson : Don't be a mocker . God hate that !!
Oh... I'm quaking in my boots. Here's a lesson for you. Scare tactics no longer work. Your masters used to be able to burn people who disagreed with the fairy tale. Now you are just as impotent as that God who's feet you lick.
David "DJ" Stahlman writes:
What I do not understand from most of those who post a response is why they post in such a hateful manner? I mean I really do understand why (sin makes all men capable of all wickedness) but it astounds me that they so openly attack.
When Ray asks for examples of his lying, is it "hateful" and "wicked" to supply them? Is it "astonishing" that people get exasperated when the lies continue, and he insults his readers' intelligence with childish evasions?
By the way that little children the bible talk about range from 20 years old downwards .
BTW... That doesn't answer the question. Why does your God delight in snuffing out his creations?
The False Convert put it very eloquently. I feel the same way. People always say we won't be talking so tough when we meet our Creator(it's so juvenile that we have to capitalize stuff like that). I have a long list of questions that he's going to either need to answer, or just go on with sending me to Hell.
Atheists are not scared of what they don't believe in. You might as well tell us that if we don't listen to you, that horrible monster that lives under our beds will kill us when we sleep. Why would I be afraid of that?
False Convert,
Please understand that I truly do ask this with all sincerity. What do you believe in?
I mean when you come to the end of your life, and it is all said and done, what exactly do you believe happens?
You spend a lot of time telling those who read this blog what you do not believe, please tell me.
"ma huasheng said...Greetings, Mr. Comfort, in the NAME which is above every name,
In this Thread, as well as in at least one other (I just verified by examining another Thread too), one poster appears to have crossed the line of "civility" ..."
Ma...I delete the bad ones :), but now and then I let one through to show the spirit behind most of these people. All you have to do is look at their own blogs to see their real character (or lack of it). Yet we still love them. I appreciate your civility when speaking with them. Keep up the good work.
Neil Smith said, "God made the first man and woman good. He gave them free will to remain good or to do evil."
If God made Adam and Eve "Good" as you say, why did they eat the apple?
What was the tree called again? "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil"? Yes, I think that was it.
Someone please explain how Adam and Eve could know it was wrong to disobey God when they didn't know the difference between Good and Evil?
Also, why would a good God place a treat in front of someone and tell them not to eat it? I call entrapment!
By the way, if I have ever crossed the lines of civility or offended anyone, I apologize.
Mike and Lizette said:
Yet that [calling Ray names and accusing him of greed] is exactly what every atheist here has done
That is not true. Not every atheist here has done that. Since the quote came from me, and was regarding me, you should regard it with me in mind. I think Ray is good people. Let's keep the peace here.
Keith said:
"We are all wretched, wicked, and sinfully rotten to the core. (Some can put on a good front and even deceive themselves that they are good enough.)"
Keith, I appreciate your concern for me, but I simply don't accept this premise. I would never claim that I'm a perfect person, but I am far from deserving of being burned alive for eternity. If I was rotten to the core, I can assure you my behavior would be a lot different than it is. I have a lot of love inside me, despite
how you may view atheists and people in general.
But you are right, if God exists, we don't deserve anything necessarily. But if we don't deserve heaven, we certainly don't deserve hell. No one does. No one deserves to be tortured.
The Unicorn said;
"The False Convert put it very eloquently. I feel the same way. People always say we won't be talking so tough when we meet our Creator(it's so juvenile that we have to capitalize stuff like that). I have a long list of questions that he's going to either need to answer, or just go on with sending me to Hell.
Atheists are not scared of what they don't believe in. You might as well tell us that if we don't listen to you, that horrible monster that lives under our beds will kill us when we sleep. Why would I be afraid of that?"
end quote***
I understand that you don't believe there is a monster under your bed but if we know it is there we need to be saying something. What kind of wicked evil people would we be if we held back what we know just because of what you don't believe. Could you imagine the heartless nature of someone who knew that hell was real and let you go there anyways without any warning? WOW...
Secondly, I understand the idea that you want to question God but do you really believe that is possible. Humor me for a minute and pretend that God is real and created all things my simply speaking. Pretend that the nature of God is everything the Bible says it is. Do you really think that you could satnd before Him and demand answers? Put aside what you think you know and come at this from a pretend angle. IF God is who we say He is do you really think you have the right to demand from Him?
David.
I'll let Mark Twain answer that for me. No one has put it quite as well as he did.
“ I was dead for millions of years before I was born and it never inconvenienced me a bit. ”
So it really doesn't matter to me. That's what I believe. I am making the most of the time I have.
Arguendo said...
Neil Smith said, "God made the first man and woman good. He gave them free will to remain good or to do evil."
If God made Adam and Eve "Good" as you say, why did they eat the apple?
What was the tree called again? "The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil"? Yes, I think that was it.
Someone please explain how Adam and Eve could know it was wrong to disobey God when they didn't know the difference between Good and Evil?
Also, why would a good God place a treat in front of someone and tell them not to eat it? I call entrapment!
Hi Arguendo
You are very loosely basing your comment on your understanding of the Bible. Therefore I quote the actual scripture:
"Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good." Genesis 1:31
God did not create man and woman without freedom of choice as shown in scripture (Genesis Chapter 3). Adam and Eve had to disobey their God given concience in order to sin.
They then became aware of their nakedness and tried to hide from the presence of the Lord God because of their guilt. So, are you trying to hide from the Lord God?
Maybe your standards of goodness and God's standards of goodness are different. I know my standard of goodness falls far short of God's standard of Goodness exibited in the Lord Jesus Christ.
The good news is that you can get right with God by repenting and trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ. Then you can receive the Holy Spirit of God and know your soul is saved.
God Bless. Neil.
False Convert-
Ooooooo that God you don't believe in must really be working on you!
Anger is a sign of conviction! Better take TWO naps. One for today, and the one you missed Saturday.
Blast away! I'm enjoying the show! :)
Well, I’ve been away for a week on holiday. You know the sort of thing we atheists do – blaspheming, coveting, lusting, eating babies and having a generally sinful time.
Imagine my delight to pop back here and find that the idiocy is still thriving and, even better, a few more loonies seem to have joined the asylum – Oh what fun!
First amongst the new inmates we have a chap (or maybe a chapess?) going by the, frankly bizarre, nom de plume of ‘hope to see you in heave really’. Now, I don’t want to come across as rude but whoever you are I really have no wish to see you in heave (wheresoever that may be), really or otherwise.
You said:
Third what it was said( the bible) is true and indeed there is a judgement await .
erm ………………….. I think we’ll just gloss over that one.
Don't let liars and myths try to control your thoughts.
tell me ‘hope to see you in heave really’, are you familiar with the concept of irony? – no, I thought not – well, anyway, later you said:
ok so you don't trust a bad person . will you listen to Jesus ?
Ooh yes! That sounds absolutely super. Of course I’ll listen to Jesus – that’s quite exciting. This might be the evidence I’ve been waiting for.
Come on then – I’m waiting.
John 8:46
Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
………………………. come on I’m waiting – along, I should imagine, with the rest of mankind. Stop teasing – let’s hear Jesus then ……….
…… still waiting …….
Oh no! that was it wasn’t it?
Exactly how credulous are you? You even referenced the bloke who supposedly wrote it at the top. That isn’t listening to Jesus – that’s listening to a chap purporting to be called John describing (somewhat belatedly I might add) the totally unsubstantiated words of a bloke who may, or may not, have been called Jesus.
When will you lot learn to stop quoting scripture at us – it’s a meaningless waste of your time and ours.
The writers of the New Testament may, or may not, be who they purport to be. The chap they write about may, or may not, have existed and may, or may not, have been called Jesus. The events they write about may, or may not, have occurred (although there is no evidence to support the fact that they did).
But come to that Enid Blyton may have been writing the truth about Noddy, J K Rowling about Harry Potter, John le Carre about Smiley, etc. etc.
Unfortunately, for you, quoting from the Bible carries as much credence as quoting from any other work of fiction.
Go away, stop wasting our time and come back if, and when, you have some evidence to show us.
If you won’t listen to me then maybe you’ll listen to Kerewin:
”You’ll get very wet, you stay there too much longer. On the hand, if you want to get wet, that’s your business.”
Keri Hulme,
The Bone People
1986 paperback edition by Pan Books
Phil
Greetings, Steve, in the NAME which is above every name,
It wasn't you. Have read a few of your posts. In my opinion, which doesn't really count for much, you're decent enough, but, again, I haven't read all of your posts. Have no worries, I believe Mr. Comfort knew who I was referring to even though I didn't mention the Poster's alias/handle/screen-name.
Also, for any wondering, I explicitly gave Mr. Comfort the option at his discretion of Posting my words in their entirely or to do with as he in his wisdom saw fit.
Mr. Comfort did NOT unilaterally edit or censor my Post.
Hope this clears things up.
sincerely yours because of HIM,
huasheng
Jacob replied to The Unicorn:
I understand that you don't believe there is a monster under your bed but if we know it is there we need to be saying something. What kind of wicked evil people would we be if we held back what we know just because of what you don't believe. Could you imagine the heartless nature of someone who knew that hell was real and let you go there anyways without any warning? WOW...
The difficulty, of course, is that your audience does not see how you can know these things. You don't seem to have sufficient evidence in the conventional sense to justify a provisional acceptance of your premises. You have, in some (all?) cases, a personal subjective experience -- but we don't share those experiences, cannot tell the difference between them and, say, the subjective experiences of devout Muslims, or devout Hindus, or convinced alien abductees.
Secondly, I understand the idea that you want to question God but do you really believe that is possible. Humor me for a minute and pretend that God is real and created all things my simply speaking. Pretend that the nature of God is everything the Bible says it is. Do you really think that you could satnd before Him and demand answers? Put aside what you think you know and come at this from a pretend angle. IF God is who we say He is do you really think you have the right to demand from Him?
Creating everything by speaking would take some doing: if God hadn't created air yet, what carried the sound waves generated by speech? If He hadn't incarnated Himself yet, what vocal organs generated the sound waves in the nonexistent air? The very concept of "speaking things into existence" implies either a metaphor for something very unlike actual speech (which raises the possibility that the rest of the opening chapters of Genesis are equally metaphorical), or the views of a prescientific culture with a very anthropomorphic God (and no real grasp of the physics of sound).
This raises another point: the Bible presents several different pictures of God; it takes quite a bit of exegetical (or is that eisegetical?) and apologetic ledgerdemain to make the anthropomorphic tribal Deity of much of Genesis (Who blithely curses unborn generations for the sin of their ancestor) with the transcendant, nonphysical Deity Who promises not to punish children for the sins of their fathers.
That being said, I concede your point: if God is the way you say He is, we are unlikely in the extreme to be mouthing defiance on the Day of Judgment; we'll be too busy shaking in our sandals and losing control of our spiritual bodily functions. But that merely amounts to saying that He's a lot tougher and more terrifying than we are; it is in no respect a moral claim or an argument for moral claims.
Terry, Its ALL about STUPID, said:
Luke 18:19 (King James Version)
"19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."
PhilG says, in reply,
John le Carre, A most Wanted Man, Page 145(Hodder & Stoughton –2008)
“That is his province and that, I assume, is how he earns his living, whatever we may think of his ethics. I do only what I promised your father I would do.”
Look Terrance, old bean, if it’s a fiction quoting contest you want then just carry on posting that drivel. The problem you’ll find though is that unlike, I suspect, you I own more than one storybook that doesn’t rely on pictures!!
Then you wined:
We have a handicap when it comes to understanding GOD
Well, you certainly have.
He is Holy, Holy, Holy.
Ah! Only three title-case holys this time. He was two-title case and one fully capitalised holy last time – surely he’s not becoming less holy?
An Immortal Being who is 'all knowing' and Almighty.
All knowing, Almighty and, frankly, rubbish at creating – its been a bit of a mess from the moment he started hasn’t it?
We are flesh and blood with a puny brain.
…………….. no, sorry, that’s too easy!
He created us from the dust of the earth.
A Christian – someone who thinks we came from a rock (albeit a powdered one). You lot really do struggle with the concept of irony don’t you!
He made us perfect,
No he didn’t! Assuming he made us at all, he made us programmed to sin from the word go so he had an excuse to bully us (you know, all that omnipotence and lack of free will stuff we’ve explained to you countless times?) – do you think they used to flush his head down the toilet at God School?
but we sinned against HIM, and ever since we ha…………………………
Oh, I give up. Terry, do your self a favour and go back to the colouring books.
Phil
I did not mean to imply that the Old Testament is "not to be trusted" or "bad". The O.T. is very good background information to understand where Jesus was coming from. But if there appears to be a conflict in how the bible shows the true nature of God, then the Gospel wins out, because the Gospel tells us the words of God Himself. One example is "an eye for an eye; a tooth for a tooth" - Jesus told us that this is not what God wants. The writers of the O.T. understood God's true nature better than anyone else at the time, but they still had some misconceptions of Him. Jesus came to set the record straight.
God does not change. It is people's understanding of God that changed.
"ma huasheng said...Greetings, Mr. Comfort, in the NAME which is above every name,
In this Thread, as well as in at least one other (I just verified by examining another Thread too), one poster appears to have crossed the line of "civility" ..."
....
You'd think it would be enough for you folks that we are going to hell without you being nitpicky about "civility."
The nice thing about humanism is that it uplifts and elevates humans. The Bible on the other hand considers all humans (not just the ones who are criminal) debased. I counted at least 10 times that the bible calls humans garbage or refuse and 3 times that it calls people worms. The Bible isn't a very uplifting book.
Stephen J.'s spectacular reply is awesome because I can address some of the finer points of that last reply you(Jacob) made.
I realized just less than a fortnight back that some theists really are trying to "save" people they preach to. It's a sad reality, sort of like the guy that runs from the police because he is sure he is a banana and the police are Good Humor Henchmen trying to diabolically turn him into a banana split.
So, as I would take pity on the delusional banana man(while taking care to protect myself and others from the harmful things he might do), I take the same pity on you.
And again, I must reiterate my point on meeting God(it's still silly to have to capitalize that!). The only way I will bow to him is if he magically forces me to. Same goes for keeping me silent. Not that it matters, God(still so silly to make me capitalize it) will already know what I'm thinking. Now the interesting point will be if he actually has something of value to say to me. Even if he does makes everything (like the holocaust, the bubonic plague, the bible, the 8 million kids born this year with genetic defects, etc.) make total sense, I'd still ask him "Now why didn't you make that very same explanation clear while I was on Earth?
Oh, and please don't use the "Free Will" card, because someone showing me with definitive evidence that they are the one and only true God(sigh)still leaves me with the free will to choose if I will worship Him or not.
Ooooooo that God you don't believe in must really be working on you!
Anger is a sign of conviction! Better take TWO naps. One for today, and the one you missed Saturday.
Blast away! I'm enjoying the show! :)
Dear Amy,
I guess I'm not very convicted, as I am in no way angry. Thank you for your concern about my sleep patterns.
And I'm glad you enjoy the show as much as I do...
Ray said: ...I delete the bad ones :), but now and then I let one through to show the spirit behind most of these people.
I'm sorry Ray, but to whom are you referring to when you say "most of these people"?
To use a phrase like "most of these people" does not look good on you Ray so I hope you will explain.
You're actions by letting "one through to show the spirit behind most of these people" shows you in a very poor light but you don't care about that do you and since I'm not "saved" my being disgusted by this admission and action and use of words such as "these people" also means nothing I'd guess.
I may love you Ray, but statements like that make me lose respect for you and if you don't care that's fine but at least now you know it.
Southern Comfort said: "I counted at least 10 times that the bible calls humans garbage or refuse and 3 times that it calls people worms."
Southern Comfort,
I have given a lot of thought to what you said about your "Christian"-background. I have great hopes that what happened to Paul will happen to you.
But in the meantime, do you think it's fair to post only part of the story about what the Bible says about humans?
Why not tell it all? I'm sure there are more than ten places in the Bible that says how we become "white as snow" through the blood of Christ.
And how we are "new creations" through the blood of Christ. I could go on, but you get my drift. You've read the end of the Book and (I know that) you know it all -- at least intellectually.
Blessings to you...
Careful F.C.
Self-control is a sign of the Holy Spirit!
To Philg
PhilG said...
Oh no! that was it wasn’t it?
Hope to :
Nope... that was just the beginning .. read the Bible ... (kjv)
Exactly how credulous are you?
( my creditability i on trial now .. Let’s see what evident you give !! : > )
You even referenced the bloke who supposedly wrote it at the top. That isn’t listening to Jesus – that’s listening to a chap purporting to be called John describing (somewhat belatedly I might add) the totally unsubstantiated words of a bloke who may, or may not, have been called Jesus.
When will you lot learn to stop quoting scripture at us – it’s a meaningless waste of your time and ours.
The writers of the New Testament may, or may not, be who they purport to be. The chap they write about may, or may not, have existed and may, or may not, have been called Jesus. The events they write about may, or may not, have occurred (although there is no evidence to support the fact that they did).
(Summary you think no one wrote the bible and some story guru wrote the bible and manage to convince the world ( 1/3) THAT Jesus exist !!!!. You have some serious problem)
But come to that Enid Blyton may have been writing the truth about Noddy, J K Rowling about Harry Potter, John le Carre about Smiley, etc. etc.
( Yet you believe in Harry potter !!!! )
Unfortunately, for you, quoting from the Bible carries as much credence as quoting from any other work of fiction.
(5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;)
Go away, stop wasting our time and come back if, and when, you have some evidence to show us.
( You are my evident . 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, )
If you won’t listen to me then maybe you’ll listen to Kerewin:
”You’ll get very wet, you stay there too much longer. On the hand, if you want to get wet, that’s your business.”
Keri Hulme,
The Bone People
1986 paperback edition by Pan Books
( I am dry. Really !)
Jesse...
But I thought the OT was the inspired word of God. Are you saying that the people who wrote down God's inspired words got it wrong?
But if there appears to be a conflict in how the bible shows the true nature of God, then the Gospel wins out, because the Gospel tells us the words of God Himself.
That's what it sounds like. And that brings up some questions. If the OT isn't to be trusted, then why should any part of the NT be trusted. The gospels have conflicting accounts in them. So what is it?
I guess I was right...
Ray,
Ma...I delete the bad ones :), but now and then I let one through to show the spirit behind most of these people.
Good job Ray, painting everybody with the same brush.
Should I conclude from your example about most Christians? What about from Terry's example? Does Terry show the spirit behind most Christians?
G.E.
G.E.
Neil Smith said, "You are very loosely basing your comment on your understanding of the Bible. Therefore I quote the actual scripture:"
I'm not sure I get your contention with my summary of parts of genesis, specifically the apple part. What part did I get wrong? Did they know the difference between right and wrong before they were tempted to eat the apple?
False Convert,
Do you know the one thing that really stopped me from ever becoming an atheist, I could not convince myself, that we ended.
If I had such capabilities, I mean I can feel physically and emotionally, I can make rational decisions, I can write, & read & paint, & play music. I can spend hours thinking and following trains of thought down the to the most minute points. I can see incredible things and remember them for years in such incredible detail. I could hurt for myself and for others.
In the end I just could not convince myself no matter how much I told myself that it wasn't real or I was just living to eventual die and cease to exist, I couldn't buy it. There is no way that all of us could possibly be so intricate and yet so random that we could have possibly made it here by mere chance or selection.
You see that was my God created conscience telling me that I was meant for something greater than self pleasure, I was more than a step on an evolutionary ladder. I was made with a purpose. It was that prompting that got me seeking and led me to the place where someone shared with me, the answer to my why. Jesus Christ.
I was created to bring glory to God and I messed that up, with all the garbage I had done all the things that at one point or another I knew I shouldn't do. It doesn't take a Christian to know that lying is wrong, or that hating someone was not what we were meant to do. I mean think about it, if we were just animals why is any of the million or so ways that we feel possible. I have never seen an animal that hates like a human can hate. Or an animal that tries to seek its own self gratification at whatever costs to others of its own species like we do. Not out of necessity but out of greed. I have never seen an animal that was anything like us, so why should we think that we are like them?
There has to be a purpose, if we are that much different than any other thing that has ever been born there has to be something about us ,other than a 70 or so year pleasure cruise headed to nothing.
Ask anyone and they will tell you that they feel they have a purpose. Its why we seek self-fulfillment, hoping that something will fill that purpose. Its why some doctors are doctors, they realize that humans are worth trying to cure. Its why some lawyers are lawyers, they realize that we are more than animals, animals don't need justice, they have the survival of the fittest (the weak male can't sue the alpha male for being to rough and not letting him have a share of the females). Purpose is what everyone seems to be seeking.
It was Christ who made it possible for me to fulfill that purpose, to have something other than an empty life of self gratification
Like I said, I wonder if you really believe what you say or is that just what you tell yourself? I really hope that is just something you are saying to sound "tough" like the five year old who says it doesn't hurt with gritted teeth. I hope that one day you realize that you were made for a purpose that was greater than anything you could ever do just "making the most of the time I have".
Regardless of whether or not you care or want me to, I will be praying for you False Convert.
Honeybee said,
Why not tell it all? I'm sure there are more than ten places in the Bible that says how we become "white as snow" through the blood of Christ.
And how we are "new creations" through the blood of Christ. I could go on, but you get my drift. You've read the end of the Book and (I know that) you know it all -- at least intellectually.
Blessings to you...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Honey, that's Ray's and your job. I am done with that. I preached the gospel for 20 years. I am now a humanist and an atheist and have been for quite awhile. I have no intention of promoting the Bible or its teachings. If I were going to do that I would have stayed in the ministry. Nothing you say or do will make me change my mind because I have already heard it all before and preached it myself as I have said. That is past. I am not on this board because I am interested in hearing the gospel message or reading all the scriptures that you Christians so laboriously quote. I skip over all the scriptures. I've heard and read them many times. I am here to stand up for reason and science and to defend evolution. Actually if Ray would just stick to preaching and quit dabbling in science as if he knew what he was talking about I wouldn't bother with his silly blog.
False Convert, so you really have no concern for what may happen after you die? The end, Not even a remote concern that something may exist after you stop breathing?
If that is truly how you feel, why do you spend so much time on a blog dedicated to reaching out to atheists? If you are seeking the most pleasure now, the "eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" mentality, why do you care what Ray has to say.
I don't want to pretend to know what is going on in your head, but I have met a few people who claimed that viewpoint (at one time I was one of them) . However after really thinking about it and spending some time talking to others with similar dispositions it always seems to be a front.
Like I said I can't speak for you or claim to know if what you say is really how you feel, but it just seems like a cop out answer.
Please understand that I meant what I said with the utmost respect. It is not my intention to cut you down, I just have heard very similar answers and they seem like a cover rather than the real answer.
Arguendo-
You made your first mistake by saying they ate an "apple". Happens every time.
Steven J. replied to Jacob:
...I concede your point: if God is the way you say He is, we are unlikely in the extreme to be mouthing defiance on the Day of Judgment; we'll be too busy shaking in our sandals and losing control of our spiritual bodily functions. But that merely amounts to saying that He's a lot tougher and more terrifying than we are; it is in no respect a moral claim or an argument for moral claims.
Mr. J. I try to read your posts because they are often worthwhile. A tone of fair play in communications and skill on your part makes much of your effort here both interesting and informative. Yet you have blown me away with a frontal assalt on God's character, questioning His moral authority in the scenario of Judgement Day (e.g. it is appointed for all men to die once and then comes the judgement). Please give some thought to this. God is aptly described by Ray as demanding we love Him above all and love others as much as ourselves; and you dare question His moral authority? The Bible states God has written his Law on our hearts (e.g. our consciences). Please give your statement some pause and listen to your conscience. Of all the arguments to make, calling God's character into question is not an honest one. Take a moment to fearlessly consider that, as your conscience should scream to you that God is holy.
Part 1
‘Hope to see you in heave really’,
I’ve read your response – Its frankly a little difficult to understand but I’ll try. I can only assume that English isn’t your first language and give you credit for that – any attempt by me to write in a second language would be considerably worse!
That said, I feel no need to give you any credit whatsoever for the bizarre and unsubstantiated belief system that you share with the other loonies in Ray’s asylum.
First you said:
To Philg
PhilG said...
Oh no! that was it wasn’t it?
Hope to :
Nope... that was just the beginning .. read the Bible ... (kjv)
Asking me to read the bible is hardly the answer is it? (Although I have read the majority of the bible out of interest). I have just explained to you that I, and presumably other atheists, are not going to accept the ‘truth’ of the bible without any evidence that the bible is what it purports to be. There is, as far as I (and others) can see, no evidence that the bible is anything but a collection of fictional stories.
Therefore, to reiterate providing us with passages from the bible is meaningless to us!
Then you said:
Exactly how credulous are you?
( my creditability i on trial now .. Let’s see what evident you give !! : > )
I think you misunderstand.
Credulous means ‘willing to believe or trust too readily, especially without proper or adequate evidence’
I think you have mistaken credulity with credibility, although if you want my opinion on your credibility as well – I’m afraid I’m not convinced you have any.
Next:
You even referenced the bloke who supposedly wrote it at the top. That isn’t listening to Jesus – that’s listening to a chap purporting to be called John describing (somewhat belatedly I might add) the totally unsubstantiated words of a bloke who may, or may not, have been called Jesus.
When will you lot learn to stop quoting scripture at us – it’s a meaningless waste of your time and ours.
The writers of the New Testament may, or may not, be who they purport to be. The chap they write about may, or may not, have existed and may, or may not, have been called Jesus. The events they write about may, or may not, have occurred (although there is no evidence to support the fact that they did).
(Summary you think no one wrote the bible and some story guru wrote the bible and manage to convince the world ( 1/3) THAT Jesus exist !!!!. You have some serious problem)
No, I do not think that ‘no one’ wrote the Bible and I’m not sure what a ‘story guru’ is. It is my contention is that the Bible was written by men. You have yet to show me any evidence to the contrary.
As for convincing the a third of the world that Jesus existed:
Well, if its an appeal to authority you are after – what about the 2/3rds of the world who it has failed to convince? In addition there are all the intricacies of who is exposed to which religion in the first place and relative rates of conversion to and from the major religions – a whole post in itself, I’m afraid. Suffice it to say the number of people ‘convinced’ about the truth of the Bible is not, in any way, indicative of its truth.
And do I have some serious problem? No – I’m not the one living my life in accordance with some ancient collection of fiction!
But come to that Enid Blyton may have been writing the truth about Noddy, J K Rowling about Harry Potter, John le Carre about Smiley, etc. etc.
( Yet you believe in Harry potter !!!! )
Where do I say that I believe in Harry Potter?
Unfortunately, for you, quoting from the Bible carries as much credence as quoting from any other work of fiction.
(5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;)
And that means what exactly? Let me tell you this one last time – The Bible is an ancient collection of stories and quoting it at me convinces me of nothing.
Phil
Part 2:
Go away, stop wasting our time and come back if, and when, you have some evidence to show us.
( You are my evident . 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, )
I am not your evidence – showing me a passage in a story book that says people who don’t believe the book are fools does not make it so.
I am actually evidence of the god’s of the dreamtime, or maybe of Con Tiqui Viracocha, or Essaugatuh Emisse, or Coatlique, or even Auoumbla. In fact all of these (and many more) are, or have been, considered responsible for man’s existance by some group of people. Some of these stories are passed down through oral tradition and some are written but they all have one thing in common:
They have as much claim on the truth as your story book and are supported by a similar amount of evidence. I.e. none!
So I say, once again, before you reply with a post full of bible quotes you need to convince us that the bible is what it purports to be – over to you, my gullible chum!
Amy2 pedantically noted:
Arguendo-
You made your first mistake by saying they ate an "apple". Happens every time.
Can you enlighten us as to why this is important, Amy?
word ver: provo
:{o
Amy2 said, "You made your first mistake by saying they ate an "apple"."
Ah, yes, I see my error. I retract the apple comment. The Bible does not specify which fruit it was, that came from more modern artwork depicting the tree. My bad.
Now do you want to refute the point rather than pick on the details?
David (part 2)
I’ll try to keep the answers a bit shorter for this bit…
If that is truly how you feel, why do you spend so much time on a blog dedicated to reaching out to atheists? If you are seeking the most pleasure now, the "eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die" mentality, why do you care what Ray has to say.
I first encountered Ray when he and Kirk had their butts handed to them on ABC Nightline. I found it quite amusing and when I discovered this blog, I just had to participate.
The reason why I enjoy this blog is that it hasn’t a snowballs chance in mythical hell of ever converting a single non-believer. It’s not even about what Ray has to say so much as what the die-hard fundies come up with. That’s all there is. I’m not trying to de-convert anyone. Just amuse myself.
I don't want to pretend to know what is going on in your head, but I have met a few people who claimed that viewpoint (at one time I was one of them) . However after really thinking about it and spending some time talking to others with similar dispositions it always seems to be a front.
Like I said I can't speak for you or claim to know if what you say is really how you feel, but it just seems like a cop out answer.
No fronts and no cop-outs here David. I don’t know what happens when you die. I lean towards it being the end and I’m not worried if I’m wrong, because everything I’ve learned about all the religions that ever existed makes me 100% certain that they are all man-made and plagiarize each other.
If you just look at Christianity, there are so many different sects and all of them think they hold the key and everyone else is wrong. And the stories are just so unbelievable and contradictory. So I’m happy to just wait and see. But I’m not going to waste a minute of my limited time here worrying about it.
Please understand that I meant what I said with the utmost respect. It is not my intention to cut you down, I just have heard very similar answers and they seem like a cover rather than the real answer.
I understand that you are respectfully disagreeing with me and I hope that I have given the same in return. I don’t feel that you cut me down. We just disagree about some things. I’ll get to your second post in a bit.
David... Continued...
There has to be a purpose, if we are that much different than any other thing that has ever been born there has to be something about us ,other than a 70 or so year pleasure cruise headed to nothing.
Maybe there is a purpose. But the Bible doesn’t address that. It makes absolutely no sense, unless you’re reading the Jefferson edition. I get a kick out of the standard Christian response to that. They say it makes no sense because I don’t believe. And point to a few verses in the Bible that support their assertion. To me, that’s the big cop-out.
Ask anyone and they will tell you that they feel they have a purpose. Its why we seek self-fulfillment, hoping that something will fill that purpose. Its why some doctors are doctors, they realize that humans are worth trying to cure. Its why some lawyers are lawyers, they realize that we are more than animals, animals don't need justice, they have the survival of the fittest (the weak male can't sue the alpha male for being to rough and not letting him have a share of the females). Purpose is what everyone seems to be seeking.
I think you are stretching things here. Some doctors are all about curing animals. I feel they are just as worthy as we are. I know my purpose is to take care of my children until they are able to take care of themselves and be there for them when they are in trouble. Other than that, the rest is fluff…
It was Christ who made it possible for me to fulfill that purpose, to have something other than an empty life of self gratification
I just don’t see it that way. To me the whole Christ story is less plausible than Santa Claus. The premise that he had to come and die (although he didn’t really die) for “sins” that hadn’t even happened yet just doesn’t ring true. I won’t go into all the details right now as this is already getting pretty long, but I will gladly take it up with you at another time.
Like I said, I wonder if you really believe what you say or is that just what you tell yourself? I really hope that is just something you are saying to sound "tough" like the five year old who says it doesn't hurt with gritted teeth. I hope that one day you realize that you were made for a purpose that was greater than anything you could ever do just "making the most of the time I have".
I’m not trying to sound tough. I really do believe that the Bible is a book of primitive myths and that the church used these stories to maintain power over everyone. I want to know what purpose is greater than anything I could ever do. If it’s eternally worshiping and glorifying the God of the Bible, I don’t want any part of it. To me that is no existence I’d ever want to be a part of.
Regardless of whether or not you care or want me to, I will be praying for you False Convert.
It is your prerogative to pray all you like. I don’t think it serves any purpose other than calming the mind of the believer. Since it won’t help or harm me, go right ahead. It won’t change anything, but I do want to say thank you for a civil conversation. That’s a rare thing these days….
David…
Your questions seem sincere, so I shall reciprocate without my usual “rapier wit.”
False Convert, so you really have no concern for what may happen after you die? The end, Not even a remote concern that something may exist after you stop breathing?
I’ve never really worried about it. Even for all the years I was “a false Christian” (as Ray would say), I didn’t dwell on “the afterlife” or what would happen to me after I died. I was brought up Catholic and did all the fun Catholic stuff, with a twist of course.
My Polish grandmother used to call me a little “Judas” when I was bad. So I thought it would be a fun idea to use Judas as my confirmation name. The bishop slapped my face a bit harder than the other kids…
I guess that learning Santa was a fraud had a big affect on me. I thought if he was fake, I’m guessing all the other “hard to believe” stories were also false.
My grandmother told some really strange stories. Here’s one. If you raise your hand to your parents you will die an untimely death. And after you are buried your hand will stick up out of the grave and the only way to get it to go back is for your parents to visit the cemetery accompanied by a priest and they must beat the hand while the priest intones a special prayer until the hand recedes. I’m sure you can see how that would turn a person off.
I actually made a sincere attempt to rejoin the church in recent years. I met a very religious woman and thought maybe this is what I need. Maybe my children need a religious woman in their life. I won’t go into all the details, but it ended up with all my two children and myself completely rebelling against this psycho who was convinced that God spoke to her all the time about every little thing. We booted her out of our home and we all feel much better. She was actually responsible for turning my kids into total unbelievers.
Now I am content to just live. I have a wonderful girlfriend who is closer to my childrens age than my own, two unique kids who are incredibly talented, my dream job that lets me use all of my talents and great friends. No enemies. Few problems.
It took almost half a century to get here, but I’m enjoying it. My family is taken care of if I die and that really is my only concern. Hey… I’ll be dead. No feeling. No problems.
And if it turns out that there is some kind of afterlife that will be fine. I’m not worried about it. I’m not planning for it, but if it exists I’ll be most curious to explore. I am not worried about running into the God of the Bible, because if ever there was a man-made story that is it. And since I’m getting a bit long winded here, I’ll continue this in a new post.
No Other Hope replied to me:
...I concede your point: if God is the way you say He is, we are unlikely in the extreme to be mouthing defiance on the Day of Judgment; we'll be too busy shaking in our sandals and losing control of our spiritual bodily functions. But that merely amounts to saying that He's a lot tougher and more terrifying than we are; it is in no respect a moral claim or an argument for moral claims.
Mr. J. I try to read your posts because they are often worthwhile. A tone of fair play in communications and skill on your part makes much of your effort here both interesting and informative. Yet you have blown me away with a frontal assalt on God's character, questioning His moral authority in the scenario of Judgement Day (e.g. it is appointed for all men to die once and then comes the judgement). Please give some thought to this. God is aptly described by Ray as demanding we love Him above all and love others as much as ourselves; and you dare question His moral authority? The Bible states God has written his Law on our hearts (e.g. our consciences). Please give your statement some pause and listen to your conscience. Of all the arguments to make, calling God's character into question is not an honest one. Take a moment to fearlessly consider that, as your conscience should scream to you that God is holy.
Your fellow apologists on this blog, in stating that my conscience is "seared," at least note that at most my conscience occasionally whispers that God might be holy. That's the point of a lot of the arguments on this blog: God is described as perfectly just, yet Ray's statements about His justice conforms only erratically and intermittently with our own sense of what would be just. To demand that we love our enemies while He condemns His (who can do Him no harm whatsoever) to eternal torment inspires a certain questioning at least of God's internal consistency (as described).
For that matter, much of Ray's description of God seems to contradict what our own reason tells us about how an omnipotent, omniscient, transcendant Being ought to be like (e.g. why does God need to pay a price for our sins if He wishes to redeem us? if free will without the possibility of sin is possible in Heaven, why could an all-powerful God not make it possible here?). And yes, pretty much by definition, our own reason is likely to be inadequate to properly understand God. It does not follow from this that assertions about God that seem unreasonable or unsupported by evidence are likely to be true.
This is a point your post seems to skirt around: I am not acknowledging that God has the attributes that Ray ascribes to Him. There are two or three separate questions here: whether any Being reasonably described as God actually exists, whether the Bible contains an accurate description of God, and whether Ray offers a biblically accurate account of God. My own point is that Ray is both handicapped and helped by the fact that the Bible does not present a monolithic, totally consistent picture of God's nature and will (thus any account Ray offers must downplay some depictions of God in the Bible, while almost any account He offers will find some biblical support).
S.C.,
What did you think of reason and Science when you thought you were a Christian?
David,
This post seems like it will more fun to comment on… Here is part one….
Do you know the one thing that really stopped me from ever becoming an atheist, I could not convince myself, that we ended. If I had such capabilities, I mean I can feel physically and emotionally, I can make rational decisions, I can write, & read & paint, & play music. I can spend hours thinking and following trains of thought down to the most minute points. I can see incredible things and remember them for years in such incredible detail. I could hurt for myself and for others.
I understand where you’re coming from. The funny thing is, the things that you state are pretty much the same things that keep me from believing in the God of the Bible. Of course there is also the history of religions trying to crush any dissenting opinions. If what they believe is true, it should stand up on its own to any questions, etc.
In the end I just could not convince myself no matter how much I told myself that it wasn't real or I was just living to eventual die and cease to exist, I couldn't buy it. There is no way that all of us could possibly be so intricate and yet so random that we could have possibly made it here by mere chance or selection.
I tend to go where the evidence leads. And the evidence tells me that this life is all I’m going to get, so I should make the most of it.
You see that was my God created conscience telling me that I was meant for something greater than self pleasure, I was more than a step on an evolutionary ladder. I was made with a purpose. It was that prompting that got me seeking and led me to the place where someone shared with me, the answer to my why. Jesus Christ.
My problem with your point is that it seems that according to your Bible, we were made for the sole purpose of worshiping God. To me that is a big stumbling block for Christianity. The need to be worshiped is a very human trait. Why would something that is all powerful need to be worshiped for all eternity? And the thought of eternally praising someone doesn’t sound like heaven to me. It sounds like prison.
I was created to bring glory to God and I messed that up, with all the garbage I had done all the things that at one point or another I knew I shouldn't do. It doesn't take a Christian to know that lying is wrong, or that hating someone was not what we were meant to do. I mean think about it, if we were just animals why is any of the million or so ways that we feel possible. I have never seen an animal that hates like a human can hate. Or an animal that tries to seek its own self gratification at whatever costs to others of its own species like we do. Not out of necessity but out of greed. I have never seen an animal that was anything like us, so why should we think that we are like them?
I agree with you that it doesn’t take a Christian to know that lying and hate (as well as rape, child abuse, etc) is wrong. And I thank you for pointing that out. That isn’t the typical reaction we find here. Most of the Christians state that it is impossible to know these things without being a Christian. I do have a problem with God creating people just to bring glory to him. It feels as though he has some really deep issues if he needs to be constantly worshiped. And he doesn’t seem to think through his actions, even though everyone says he knows exactly what is going to happen.
Why did there have to be a tree of knowledge in Eden? He had to know that curiosity would get the better of his “creation.” Why did he ignore that? I feel that according to the stories the main fault of “the fall” rests squarely on God’s shoulders. It seems like he doesn’t want to take responsibility so he devises this long, convoluted and completely illogical scheme to save his creation from himself. It’s just so nonsensical to me. And when people start putting their own spin on the story to make it relevant in light of advances in knowledge, it becomes downright ridiculous.
To be continued....
David "DJ" Stahlman said:
You see that was my God created conscience telling me that I was meant for something greater than self pleasure, I was more than a step on an evolutionary ladder. I was made with a purpose. It was that prompting that got me seeking and led me to the place where someone shared with me, the answer to my why. Jesus Christ.
Do you think that if you were born in Saudi Arabia to Muslim parents, your seeking would have led you not to Christianity, but to Islam?
Apples to apples,
The reason it's important is that once a small detail is changed or omitted, it gets easier and easier to misquote Scripture.
Most people do believe that is was an apple (that's why I wasn't surprised when I saw it) which explains why people believe so many other things that aren't in the Bible.
What was your original question Arguendo? (Sorry! I have computer constraints--two teenagers yelling, "Mom, are you done arguing with the atheists? I need the computer!") :)
Noble,
"Do you think that if you were born in Saudi Arabia to Muslim parents, your seeking would have led you not to Christianity, but to Islam?"
Now to answer that with certainty is impossible, but based on the thousands upon thousands of Muslim to Christian converts I would say yes.
In my own misguided attempts to find the something that is greater than myself it would be easy to attach to the first thing that seemed larger than myself (I believe that most of the "clubs" out there men join they join out of a sense of belonging), which (though not to Islam) was what I initially did. I have been to several churches (a term that I use loosely) each prompting that their version of God was unique and correct (which is what both Christianity and Islam do so you see why I saw it is possible that one stopping point on my search may have rested on Islam) however after spending some time in many denominations I realized something, that Christianity wasn't a denomination it is a relationship. Many of these fundamentalists are themselves in for a rude awakening when they arrive in heaven and are greeted by others of different denominations that they were fairly sure were not going to be in heaven.
You see even if I was born in say Egypt I may have come to Islam but I wouldn't stay. Their very teaching when looked at in particular, not just from 50,000 feet show that they cannot be accurate, nor are they unique. If life is sacred, they Jihad makes no sense whereas loving thy neighbor as thyself and loving God above all makes perfect sense.
With what False Convert said about his past it confirms what I have witnessed in many lives (my own included) that though some 70ish% of people in America claim to be Christians, vastly fewer actually are. It seems that you two have run into your fair share of false teachers and false religion.
Christianity IS about a relationship. When God created man, He created him to fellowship with him (sorry fellowhship is a churchy word) that is why he walked in the cool of the day with him. However when man chose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil man chose to break that fellowship (False Convert the tree was there to allow man to choose God. We are not robots, we have been given the ability to choose so that it may be shown that our love is real. If I put a gun to my wife's head and told her to tell me she loves me, even if she says it it isn't real. To prove that my love is real, not only to me but to her, I have to give her the ability to not choose me.)
So the only reason you love God is that you don't have a choice? His morals make no sense at all on the human scale, but you say he is great. Just like I might say my insane captor is great when he has a gun to my head.
What if it was revealed that God had an older brother, who was much less vindictive, and all round a pretty liberal guy. If this brother told you that he would make sure God couldn't send you or anyone else to Hell, or otherwise torment you for not following His law, would you still love your petulant God? Would you prefer Him over His more laid back sibling?
The way you conflate fear and love is kind of horrifying. I guess I might love the torturer who agrees not to torture me, but not because he deserves it.
Amy2 said, "What was your original question Arguendo?"
Please explain how Adam and Eve could know it was wrong to disobey God when they didn't know the difference between Good and Evil, because they had not eaten from the Tree of Knowledge?
If I put a gun to my wife's head and told her to tell me she loves me, even if she says it it isn't real. To prove that my love is real, not only to me but to her, I have to give her the ability to not choose me.)
Well that's my big problem with your God. He may not be pointing a gun at your head, but he's telling you that if you don't choose him, you're going to burn forever. I think that's a bit worse than a gun. And besides, why is he so insecure that he needs to go through all of this insanity just to have his "creation" love him.
You'd think that he'd have learned from his mistake with Adam and Eve.
Instead, he magnifies the problem and hides himself to make it even more difficult to choose.
I'm just not buying it.
False Convert, you are partially correct. We do have to choose Christ or perish, but it isn't because He needs to be praised or because He needs to have us love Him. We choose Christ or perish because we were created by a perfect, holy, just God and we chose to disobey what he created us for. We chose to serve ourselves our own desires, our own will at whatever cost, and that cost is our very lives. He as a perfect, holy,and just God and as such cannot tolerate disobedience or wickeness (this is what sin is). We are condemned because we chose to be imperfect.
Christ came to offer us perfection again. His death paid the death that sin deserves and by doing so he perfection is now our perfection. Becuase the debt was paid when we repent of our sins (declare to God that we are wicked and we cannot correct ourselves) and believe on Jesus Christ (believe that he was payment enough for our sins) we restore a broken purpose that we were created for spending eternity with God.
In a very simplified example I think of it as this: I asked God for my children to spend time with them, to raise them and watch them grow, not for the purpose of self-gratifcation, but we be with them. One of their purposes is to honor and obey their parents. Now when they chose to dishonor and disobey their parents they warrant punishment for their disobedience. I did not ask God for my children so I could spend my time punishing them, but as a good parent I must correct their disobedience. If I didn't would I be a good parent? If God doesn't punish us for our disobedience he would not be a just or holy God.
Following in the same analogy: I don't punish my children without first giving them instruction, I mean how can I punish them for what they do not know. So when they disobey it is because they chose to ignore what I told them was right to do and they did their own thing. In a very simplified way this is what we did when we chose sin over God.
The False Convert said,
You'd think that he'd have learned from his mistake with Adam and Eve.
Instead, he magnifies the problem and hides himself to make it even more difficult to choose.
I'm just not buying it.
What was there to learn? I do not see what you mean. It wasn't a mistake. He as God had every right to destroy all of mankind (the whopping two of them that were there anyway), but he chose not to. He could have just paused a fraction of an instant and thought a single thought and none of this would ever have been, but he chose not to. You see his love was so great that even though he knew from the very beginning he would have to redeem mankind, he gave man the choice. And knowing what man would do he created an escape from judgment, the life and death of Jesus Christ.
Did you know that Hell wasn't created for man. In the gospel according to Matthew it is recorded that Hell was created for the devil and his angels, not man. Man chose hell, God did not choose hell for man.
Again I am confused by a statement of yours, False Convert, what do you mean "he magnifies the problem and hides himself to make it even more difficult to choose."?
Thank you for talking with me by the way. I truly appreciate the fact that though you do not believe me or what I say, you are willing to read these long posts without rude comments or mocking me. I hope I have been as civil with you as you have been to me.
David Stahlman
Okay DJ, I’m going to take a crack at this…
False Convert, you are partially correct. We do have to choose Christ or perish, but it isn't because He needs to be praised or because He needs to have us love Him. We choose Christ or perish because we were created by a perfect, holy, just God and we chose to disobey what he created us for.
Why does your God need to be loved by puny humans so much? That is a human trait. And why is it the only thing I hear from Christians about “Heaven” is that they can’t wait to praise God eternally for whatever it is you guys praise him for? That doesn’t sound like a good deal to me.
Even if you live to be over one hundred years old, that doesn’t way in to well against eternity. And if he’s so perfect and knows what is going to happen before the fact, why does he continually screw things up?
We are condemned because we chose to be imperfect.
But according to you, he condemned you thousands of years before you were even born. How is that fair? And if he wanted something to be perfect he could easily have made it so. He could also easily have changed the rules any time he liked. He didn’t have to flood the world. He could easily have picked out the sinners and just zapped them out of existence. He could have given Eve and Adam another chance. He could have explained things to them more clearly.
I have a big problem with the way Christians impose their rules and regulations on their God. I always hear that God has no choice. He has to punish sinner because he is perfect, holy, yada yada….
I guess one of the cool things about religions is that if you have a problem with something, you can just make something new up and if enough people agree with you it becomes accepted.
Christ came to offer us perfection again. His death paid the death that sin deserves and by doing so he perfection is now our perfection. Becuase the debt was paid when we repent of our sins (declare to God that we are wicked and we cannot correct ourselves) and believe on Jesus Christ (believe that he was payment enough for our sins) we restore a broken purpose that we were created for spending eternity with God.
This is the crux of the problem with Christianity. This happened two thousand years before I was born. I didn’t ask for him to pay any debt. And if it had been offered I would not have accepted it. I find it ridiculous that a God is so limited in his actions that the only way he can keep himself from destroying his creation again (this time by burning the lot of them) is to send himself down to earth to sacrifice himself to himself to pay for things that haven’t happened yet. He’s not a very efficient deity.
I can’t comment on the rest, because I’m not sure what you were trying to say….
Christ came to offer us perfection again. His death paid the death that sin deserves and by doing so he perfection is now our perfection. Because the debt was paid when we repent of our sins (declare to God that we are wicked and we cannot correct ourselves)
I'm sorry but I just can't understand why a God would need to follow a blood ritual to make a loophole in his own law. I have to agree with FC, Christianity gives God human weaknesses and limitations. Something as powerful and eternal as a God should have any limitations and the excuse that he is perfect and holy is a limitation. This is one of the reasons why I don't have faith in any religious doctrine.
The bible basically says that God created this unbelievably massive and complex universe and then because 2 tiny humans ate something he told them not to he cursed the whole universe and everything that exists within it with death. That to me sounds a lot more like human arrogance that the universe revolves around them then the actions of a universal Creator. I just have more faith in Creation then I could ever have in collection books written by humans.
You can call that a weakness or a deception if you want but at this moment with the understanding I have that's what I believe.
Sorry for some reason I didn't put the quote in my last post in bold.... this was the quoted text
Christ came to offer us perfection again. His death paid the death that sin deserves and by doing so he perfection is now our perfection. Because the debt was paid when we repent of our sins (declare to God that we are wicked and we cannot correct ourselves)
The False Convert said...
/Why does your God need to be loved by puny humans so much?/
God doesn’t need our love.
He offers it because He is the most benevolent Being of all. He is the greatest thing you can ever love. He is the most praiseworthy of all Beings and He shares of Himself so that your joy might be full.
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