If you remember, Zacharius refused to believe what God said to him through His angel. He therefore deemed God to be a liar. That is the insult of unbelief, and he was punished by God for his sin by being struck dumb. However, the moment he became obedient to God by naming his son John, God did a personal miracle for him. His mouth was opened and his tongue was loosed.
Disobedience comes naturally to all human beings--anyone who has kids can tell you that. We don’t have to teach our children to be selfish, to lie, to be greedy, or to be rebellious. We are born rebels. Yet, despite the multitude of sins that we each have, God will do a miracle for us the moment we obey Him. Speaking of Jesus, the Bible says "though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him..." (Hebrews 5:8-9).
Jesus is the "author" of eternal salvation. That means He grants everlasting life to anyone who obeys Him. Why should you obey Him? What has He done for you? He gave you eyes to see His incredible creation, ears to enjoy music and the sounds of the birds He created. He gave you the ability to love, to laugh, to sing, to think. He lavished His kindness upon you by giving you the gift of live itself. Have you thanked God for your life, and asked what He would have you do? The moment you obey the gospel you will no longer be dumb. God will open your mouth and you will speak of His kindness and praise Him for His goodness, much to the distain of a proud and rebellious world:
"I will bless the Lord at all times; His praise shall continually be in my mouth. My soul shall make its boast in the Lord; the humble shall hear of it and be glad" (Psalm 34:1-2).
Sunday, November 8, 2009
Back to Doctor Luke
94 comments:
Ray
Since the scripture claims that one must simply believe in Jesus in order to receive eternal life where is this talk about obeying him coming from. That sounds like a works based doctrine which is contrary to the words of your savior.
While it would be reasonable to suggest that those who believe would obey, it does not follow that one must obey or repent in order to believe. It seems you are reading things in to the book of Luke which run contrary to the words of Jesus Christ himself.
Even if the book of Luke does mean what you are claiming, that only means that Dr. Luke was teaching a doctrine contrary to the words of Christ who I would imagine is the actual authority according to your faith. Wasn't there a name given for those who claim things in the name of Jesus that he never said? I believe it was false prophet.
Now since I see the whole Gospel as just a silly collection of stories it doesn't affect me if you wish to distort it. However since you purport to believe in these stories one would think you would wish to be honest about what they actually say.
"The moment you obey the gospel you will no longer be dumb."
I guess Ray hasn't accepted the gospel.
The moment you obey the gospel you will no longer be dumb. God will open your mouth and you will speak of His kindness and praise Him for His goodness, much to the distain of a proud and rebellious world:
What does it mean to obey the gospel? What does it mean to repent and follow Jesus? What specifically must I do?
Ray said "The moment you obey the gospel you will no longer be dumb."
If it's that easy, why so many "false converts" or as I like to call them, ex-Christians?
Do you honestly believe that everyone who's no longer a Christian was not genuine? Or is it that you NEED to believe that?
Ray Comfort said:
If you remember, Zacharius refused to believe what God said to him through His angel. He therefore deemed God to be a liar.
I reiterate my earlier point: Zacharias saw a manlike being in front of him giving what purported to be a message from God. How was Zacharias to be certain that he was not hallucinating, or being deceived by an evil spirit or false prophet? He didn't deem God to be a liar; he questioned whether God was indeed the author of the message being delivered to him -- a very different proposition, even if you, of course, would prefer to elide the difference.
On your interpretation, Zacharias is punished for demonstrating an empirical and discerning spirit, rather than blind credulity towards anyone with some good special effects and a mere claim to be speaking for God.
Granted, in your personal case, you don't even have the good special effects going for you.
And Zacharias said to the angel, "How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years."
Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"
I honestly do not see the difference.
Ray said:
"Disobedience comes naturally to all human beings--anyone who has kids can tell you that. We don’t have to teach our children to be selfish, to lie, to be greedy, or to be rebellious."
You know what Ray? I didn't have to teach my children to love either. You can choose to focus on the bad, or the good.
You know what else Ray? I didn't throw my kids out into the street for disobeying me. When my kids were disobedient, I may have been upset. I sometimes punished them, but I never once considered casting them from me forever because they disobeyed me.
Now, the just God you want us to believe in is supposed to have created us, and loves us, but thousands of years ago, some unknown decedent disobeyed God, and now we are all doomed to hell. I just made my kids sit in the corner for a little while. According to your theology, I was doomed before I took a breath. So, God created people to sin, and he punished them for that sin before they were born, but He is a just and loving God.
Where is that evidence for God, hell, and the soul again?
So Ray do you worship God beause you love him or becae oyu are afraid you are going to burn if you don't ?
He gave you eyes to see His incredible creation, ears to enjoy music and the sounds of the birds He created. He gave you the ability to love, to laugh, to sing, to think. He lavished His kindness upon you by giving you the gift of live itself.
Please substantiate this assertion.
Ray wrote...
"The moment you obey the gospel you will no longer be dumb. God will open your mouth and you will speak of His kindness and praise Him for His goodness, much to the distain of a proud and rebellious world:"
"Distain" is spelled disdain. Also, I find this quote incredibly ironic coming from a creationist (no offense). :)
"Jesus is the "author" of eternal salvation. That means He grants everlasting life to anyone who obeys Him"
Except for followers of the Jewish faith. They get in to heaven some other way.
Zach was obviously a moron.
If an angel came to me from the sky and told me about God, I'd be inclined to believe him.
And Ray, sorry to break this to you but you're no angel.
Ray Comfort said:
Disobedience comes naturally to all human beings--anyone who has kids can tell you that. We don’t have to teach our children to be selfish, to lie, to be greedy, or to be rebellious. We are born rebels.
Does this not speak poorly of the Creator's design?
Now, you will argue that God has graciously given us free will (though you've also noted the apparent paradox: assuming that we will not sin in Heaven, either we don't need free will for the sort of relationship God wants for us, or we can have free will without the possibility of sinning). But "free will" implies that disobedience and obedience are equally natural to us: a bias towards the choice that God wants us not to make seems a design flaw.
Or, if you blame this bias towards bad choices to be a consequence of the Fall, well, why should God allow such a consequence, much less command it? Again, if God wants our obedience, it would not seem to be beyond the power of an omnipotent Creator to cause us to be more inclined to obey (or, as you will, less inclined to rebel).
Please note: this is not actually offered as an argument that God exists but is unworthy of worship; it is, rather, an argument that you seem to be making inconsistent assertions about God, and consequently that not everything you say about Him can be true.
Disobedience comes naturally to all human beings--anyone who has kids can tell you that.
Which speaks volumes concerning the level of intellect of the vast majority of atheists that post here. I swear, I have family members in grade school that have better analytical skills.
"God did a personal miracle for him. His mouth was opened and his tongue was loosed."
Since when is undoing something that you caused considered a miracle?
Ray said:
"Disobedience comes naturally to all human beings--anyone who has kids can tell you that. We don’t have to teach our children to be selfish, to lie, to be greedy, or to be rebellious. We are born rebels."
My kids are none of the things you describe. They are honest, altruistic, caring and sensitive to the needs of others.
If you define rebellion as not blindly following everything that I suggest then they could be defined as rebellious. I don't define rebellion that way however.
I encourage them to think for themselves and make their own informed decisions, taking into account the consequences of their actions. If you call that rebellion then I guess they are rebellious.
My wife and I raised them with secular humanitarian values. I also credit the secular school they attend, their peers and other families we associate with.
However they exhibited no natural tendencies to lie or to be selfish or any of the other things you described. You sell humanity short by claiming that we are born with these negative tendencies.
That's some mighty fine presuppositional bias you have there, Mr. Comfort.
Here's a tip:
Don't go quoting Bible verses at people who don't accept the authority of the Bible. It just won't work. Chances are, we've heard it all before. Chances are we've actually read it all before,and chances are we've read it more times than you or any alleged Christian that reads your blog.
What, apart from a staggering amount of arrogance, makes you think that you telling us this for the nth millionth time will suddenly flick a switch in our heads?
The Designer ought to have created us so that it isn't true that
Disobedience comes naturally to all human beings--anyone who has kids can tell you that.
The Designer has designed poorly. The Designer is evil for punishing people who behave naturally.
Ray,
'Back to Doctor Luke' is another Great Post! John the Baptist was always one of my favorite characters in the New Testament.
He was never affraid to "Take a Stand" for Jesus Christ and proclaim Him as the Lamb of GOD.
Always ready to proclaim GOD's Word to King Herod and his heathen scoundrels.
I was reading Genesis the other day and I came across:
Chapter 1, verse 26.
It brought back memories of a missionary teaching me about GOD the Father and the Son Jesus Christ, with the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Trinity.
"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"
As you know, this proves that Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Moses wrote these wondeful books in the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible).
Have a Great Week!
Take Brother, You are the best.
Proud to call you Brother! :)
In His Love,
Terry Burton
WayoftheMasterMinute
Sunday, November 8, 2009
'Scripture’s Consistency'
The Bible has a wonderful consistency on any subject.
Take Judgment Day. The Book of Daniel says, "I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire; A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, and the books were opened."(Daniel 7:9-10)
Seven hundred years later, John described Jesus the same way. He said, "His head and His hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire."
Paul, adds, "Our God is a consuming fire." What a fearful day that will be.
There goes another minute.
Gone forever. Go share your faith while you still have time.
Oh, you actually made time for the Bible! I was expecting another science lecture.
"Jesus is the 'author' of eternal salvation. That means He grants everlasting life to anyone who obeys Him."
Or, more accurately, people make that claim on his behalf.
"He therefore deemed God to be a liar."
Or, he thought the messenger might be a fake, an imposter. This overlooks the likely fictional nature of the story. To punish him for questioning can only come from vanity. Face it, Ray, you worship evil -- or at least you pretend to do so.
Which speaks volumes concerning the level of intellect of the vast majority of atheists that post here. I swear, I have family members in grade school that have better analytical skills.
So basically you're lying. You swear that your grades school kin have better analytical skills? That's a lie. You should admit that you were just trying to be witty and lied in the process.
What a scumbag.
It is very telling that so many Darwinian atheists come to this blog to demand answers and evidence regarding a religion. Religion is not a science, it is based on faith.
But none of them ever seem to have a question about evolution, something that does claim to be a science and something they pretty much believe is settled. Yet, they have no questions.
Darwin told us to look for millions of transitional fossils for our proof - yet we can't find them. he told us to look to all the vestigial organs - we find none.
He thought embryos trace evolutionary development, another fraud pushed by the evolutionists of his day.
He even believed that acquired characteristics were inherited, total non-sense.
If biology students read Origin of Species, the teacher would have to spend most of every lecture telling the students that what they read isn’t true.
It's all about Jesus said:
"Take Judgment Day. The Book of Daniel says, "I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame, its wheels a burning fire; A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, and the books were opened."(Daniel 7:9-10)
Seven hundred years later, John described Jesus the same way. He said, "His head and His hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire.""
So the author of John plagiarised the author of Daniel some 700 years later. What's your point?
I watched the film Troy the other day. Parts of its story are very similar to Homer's Iliad and Virgil's Aenid.
The existence of the film does not validate the literal truth of the two earlier works, any more than the consistency you point out validates the truth of the Bible.
'Back to Doctor Luke' is another Great Post! John the Baptist was always one of my favorite characters in the New Testament.
For what reason should this claim be considered credible, given that you are demonstrably a serial liar?
@Ryk, you said
"Now since I see the whole Gospel as just a silly collection of stories it doesn't affect me if you wish to distort it. However since you purport to believe in these stories one would think you would wish to be honest about what they actually say."
Ryk, are we suppose to take a muslim ( posing as a atheist ) seriously ? Get real.
Skull & bones shows your worship of the evil one in your profile.
You cling to Islam which is clearly a pagan religion from 630 AD. You worship satan, therefore your works are corrupt and evil.
The holy sciptures are authentic and the Holy Bible has been the number one best seller of all time.
It out sales the Koran every day!
The prophecies contained within it, prove the inerrant Word.
Study the Holy Bible before you damn yourself to the flames.
BTW, your pagan religion is with moon god allah and the 'falling star' of Lucifer.
Get Right with the GOD of Israel before you face Him on Judgement Day. See NeedGOD website for help!
God Bless! Praying for you.
Wise up friend.
In His Love,
Terry Burton
@ Nathan (Spook profile)
Friend, you are sadly mistaken.
I have studied Islam in the Indian Ocean during the war, and in the USA. You are deceived by allah.
Your god is Not the GOD of Israel.
Muhammed created your religion in 630 AD to rally his army. He was visited by a 'angel of light' in a cave on several occasions.
Muhammed created a pagan idol which represented allah (crescent moon).
This 'angel of light' was Lucifer, the "fallen angel". allah is the Great Deceiver ( as per the Koran ) - this represents satan completely. Your religion is pagan and your god is the prince of darkness.
The Ten Commandments (the law of Moses) shows us that all have sinned and fallen short.
The only Way of Salvation is Jesus Christ. He is much more than a prophet, He is the Son of GOD.
You need to visit the GoodPersonTEST website to get Right with the GOD of Israel.
The Jews are GOD's chosen people.
Good Luck!
In His Love,
Terry Burton
@Pvblivs, you said ""Jesus is the 'author' of eternal salvation. That means He grants everlasting life to anyone who obeys Him."
Or, more accurately, people make that claim on his behalf."
You got it half right! I will give you an "A" for effort. The last wrong part is wrong. "F" on that!
The Holy Bible clearly teaches that all things were made thru Him and without Him nothing has been made.
Also, He proclaimed in several passages that He is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life".
Which means He is the only path to Salvation, He only speaks the Truth, and eternal life is given to those who obey the Word of GOD.
Try using biblegateway website for word searches, and research. It will help you to see the Truth
in the holy scriptures.
God Bless!
In His Love,
Terry Burton
Hey Ray,
I love your blog and the faithful Atheist followers that are daily exposing themselves to the truth of the gospel. Some of them have commented on almost every post for over a year now. They’re more dedicated then some in the church who can’t even be faithful to show up an hour a week. It’s like you’re the pastor of a congregation of mostly Atheists. Awesome ministry.
I'm also very impressed with how God uses Tony “The Lawman” and I would love to point some of the Atheists and Christians to his blog.
I just watched a video of some of his open air preaching and it was amazing to see the reaction of an atheist lady loose it just because she didn’t want to be reminded of what the Bible teaches.
Google -
Project Ezra Suggested Reading (Deuteronomy 6) - Part 2
[PS, the video isn't edited so there’s a bit of cursing]
Pvblivs,
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isaiah 5:20
"Wolfgang said...The moment you obey the gospel you will no longer be dumb. God will open your mouth and you will speak of His kindness and praise Him for His goodness, much to the distain of a proud and rebellious world:
What does it mean to obey the gospel? What does it mean to repent and follow Jesus? What specifically must I do?"
Wolfgang...check out www.NeedGod.com
"OutlawGirl said...And Zacharias said to the angel, 'How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.'
Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?'
I honestly do not see the difference."
OLG...God does, and that's the point.
"culberto said...
'Jesus is the 'author' of eternal salvation. That means He grants everlasting life to anyone who obeys Him'
Except for followers of the Jewish faith. They get in to heaven some other way."
Culberto...that's a typical atheist mistake. Read Hebrews 11.
I find it ironic that you consistently refer to Luke as a "Doctor" when you yourself have repeatedly stated that doctors kill millions of people each year, and that you heavily question their practice - preferring prayer and herbs instead.
To quote your 8/14/09 post:
"...Hospitals have become very dangerous places. Around 40,000 people die on roads in the United States each year. However, a massive 200,000 people die in hospitals because of medical mistakes and infections.... That’s frightening."
And that's modern doctors, btw - the doctors of 2000 years ago lived in a world where the average lifespan was half of ours... obviously their medicine was not that reliable. So why should we trust this "Doctor" Luke, then?
Because you say so?
Because he says so?
Because you are scared of your own mortality?
to MOLLYKNITS
you said: "I didn't have to teach my children to love either. You can choose to focus on the bad, or the good."
parents do teach their children to love even from birth. everything we do out of love for our children is teaching them to be loving. around the age of 2 or 3 we start telling them to be loving when they display undesirable behavior towards others. in fact, at times even as an adult i need to be reminded to be loving.
it is a clinical fact that a child who feels unloved in infancy is more likely to grow up feeling unloved and unwanted and unable to love and be loved. so sad.
God is the author of love:)
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
this is GOOD NEWS yet it stirs up so much hatred. the bible absolutely does not teach that we were doomed before we even took a breath as you said. you completely misunderstand and misrepresent God.
respectfully, here's a very simple paraphrase to correct your paraphrase:
God had a plan from the beginning for an eternal family and paradise. free will took a wrong turn and because God is LOVING and JUST he couldn't go against the free will laws he set in place. meanwhile God had a backup plan, a messiah, the man named Jesus, the "second adam" who would
eventually win back what was lost. so by free will we can have what was originally intended, eternal life and paradise. God wants all of mankind to be saved! choose life.
1 Timothy 2:4 [God]...who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
anyone thinking to reply with the repetitious, wrongful accusations about God not being loving, based on old testament (OT) scripture, please don't. new testament scripture sheds the ultimate light on OT scripture. blaming God for all sickness, death and destruction is misguided and contrary to his nature. he is not controlling the evil in this world, satan is.
also, research the hebrew "idiom of permission" and the figure of speech "metonymy of the subject"
and those difficult old testament scriptures can be properly understood. most cases will prove to be a result of free will or an adversarial attack.
2Thess 2:10 ...They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
see truthortraditionDOTcom
Ray replied to Wolfgang's question thus:
"Wolfgang...check out www.NeedGod.com
Hi Ray. I went through the good person test. I did poorly by the way, lying, thieving lustful, blashpheming atheist that I am! But I got to the bit regarding what to do. The page says:
"If you will repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus, God says he will forgive all your sins and grant you the gift of everlasting life."
I think I get the putting trust in Jesus bit - pretty self explanatory - but how does one repent?
Is it through prayer? If I sincerely (with true belief in God's sacrifice) recite Psalm 51 would that count as repentance?
Do I have to do it every day? Twice daily? Or is one sincere repentance enough to save me from Hell?
How does repentance differ from the Catholic confession? Sure, confession is made to a priest but surely God is there listening too, so remove the priest and a Catholic repents as well?
So how's the evidence for Hell coming along Mr. Comfort?
I can only assume by how long it's taking that there is an awful lot that you are compiling to show me and the others who are waiting with baited breath for you to produce it.
Still, we will probably be waiting even longer if such evidence doesn't actually exist... Just saying...
JD Curtis
Which speaks volumes concerning the level of intellect of the vast majority of atheists that post here. I swear, I have family members in grade school that have better analytical skills.
Examples please...do people like Stephen J display those lousy "analytical skills" that you complain about?
People like him, Dimensio, Debunky Monkey, etc are continually having to correct Ray in matters of science, usually having to repeat themselves in the process (ex. the evolution of the male and female genders)
Ok Gunther, that cartoon is funny.
-He gave you eyes to see His incredible creation, ears to enjoy music and the sounds of the birds He created. -
Except for the born deaf. And frankly i find bird chatter incredibly annoying. It is not "singing" by any stretch of the imagination.
Children are not naturally disobedient they just don't know about how to behave until taught the what, the why and the how.
I see nothing pleasant about this story. The lesson learnt appears to be obey or be punished.
blah blah blah...
This may be a very simple thing for you to understand Ray, but I find it very difficult to reconcile this statement...
"Jesus is the "author" of eternal salvation. That means He grants everlasting life to anyone who obeys Him"
...with the fact that Jewish people do not accept Jesus as their Messiah.
You have said this in the past...
"Any Jew who believes the Scriptures will come to Christ"
So, as long as Jewish people believe in "the Scriptures" (I take this to mean the first 5 books of the OT), they will "come to Christ", even if they don't believe in Him.
Sorry, does not compute. I stand by my original statement.
Ryk,
Jesus said, "Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say?"
Obedience shows we trust Him and have faith in Him. You guys are always going on about Christians who say they're Christians but their behavior doesn't reflect it. Jesus is saying the same thing.
Outlaw girl,
Could you clarify? You don't know the difference between an older couple who may not be having sex anymore (and even when they did they produced no children) and a girl who has never "known" a man?
Michael,
How do you know an angel hasn't appeared to you? They look like people. The Bible says people have "entertained angels unaware". What are your qualifications for identifying one?
DMonkey,
You know, among the best/worst posters on both sides of the aisle, there's usually understanding of mispellings and typos. If it makes you feel more intelligent and important to point out a mispelled word, that doesn't say much for your credibility when it comes to discussion.
Now grammar, that's another story!
Alphgeek said...
Ray said:
"Disobedience comes naturally to all human beings--anyone who has kids can tell you that. We don’t have to teach our children to be selfish, to lie, to be greedy, or to be rebellious. We are born rebels."
My kids are none of the things you describe. They are honest, altruistic, caring and sensitive to the needs of others.
If you define rebellion as not blindly following everything that I suggest then they could be defined as rebellious. I don't define rebellion that way however.
I encourage them to think for themselves and make their own informed decisions, taking into account the consequences of their actions. If you call that rebellion then I guess they are rebellious.
My wife and I raised them with secular humanitarian values. I also credit the secular school they attend, their peers and other families we associate with.
However they exhibited no natural tendencies to lie or to be selfish or any of the other things you described. You sell humanity short by claiming that we are born with these negative tendencies.
Alphgeek... Squeaky clean children you have there.
Wow...so you've never had to discipline your children? They always did the right thing? Maybe they're a new breed, evolved somehow...
Thanks God, for all the horrible deaths you have caused, especially the ones that you have allowed to happen in your name. I also want to thank Jesus, for healing some of the sick and then leaving billions of others to live on with horrible diseases throughout their lives. I also want to thank You for allowing the Holocaust, the crusades, the Salem Witch trials, and many other instances where people have used your name for violence and murder.
I also want to thank Jesus for making people like Ray Comfort, Kirk Cameron, Pat Robertson, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, and many others into the intolerant, horrible, lying, pompous people that they are.
Ray replied to Culberto:
"Except for followers of the Jewish faith. They get in to heaven some other way."
Culberto...that's a typical atheist mistake. Read Hebrews 11."
Ray, I think you missed the point. I'm pretty sure Culberto's comment was a rhetorical/hypothetical statement.
If Culberto is an atheist, then he probably doesn't believe in 'heaven'.
If he is a Jew, you missed a trick.
I think you meant (from your point of view): 'that's a common Jewsih mistake'.
See? You believe that practicing Jews go to be burned for all eternity. And you believe that is what they deserve.
Get it?
@Terry (Lying for Jesus) Burton.
I know you think calling someone a Muslim is an insult and in a way it is but no more so than calling someone a Christian. Both are significantly more insulting than calling someone gay which is your usual choice of insult. I am assuming based on that and the clearly homoerotic lust you display in your posts that you use that insult because you are heavily in the closet.
Is the same true about using the Islam insult, could it be that you actually are beginning to doubt Christianity and prefer the religion of Islam so you lash out against it. In other words methinks the lady doth protest to much.
In any case it is rather a moot point. Even if I were Muslim that would not invalidate any arguments I made. However your thinking it does certainly shows that you are a bigot. Next are you going to say that people can't trust me because you think I am black.
Ray Comfort replied to OutlawGirl:
And Zacharias said to the angel, 'How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.'
Then Mary said to the angel, 'How can this be, since I do not know a man?'
I honestly do not see the difference.'
OLG...God does, and that's the point.
The point is that we're supposed to obey God, but only God can figure out whether we're doing that or not? The point is that if someone claims to be speaking for God, and really is, we're to accept what he says without question, but if he's a false prophet, demon, or whatever, we're to reject his counsel -- but we have, at the time we're supposed to be determining which of these situations we're in, no way of knowing just how far God wants us to go in questioning the credentials of people claiming to speak for Him?
That's rather a nasty point, if you think about it.
CharlieDarwin said...
But none of them ever seem to have a question about evolution, something that does claim to be a science and something they pretty much believe is settled. Yet, they have no questions.
Seriously? Do you really think that if any of us have questions about evolution we would ask Ray? Ray knows nothing about evolution, and what he thinks he knows is wrong. If I have questions about evolution Ray is the very last person I would ask.
Darwin told us to look for millions of transitional fossils for our proof - yet we can't find them. he told us to look to all the vestigial organs - we find none.
Wow, look everyone, another Christian lying about evolution. Sorry to burst your bubble but there are plenty of transitional fossils and lots of vestigial organs.
If you think otherwise please start by explaining what you think a transitional fossil or a vestigial organ is. I am sure the problem lies with your misunderstanding of the science.
He thought embryos trace evolutionary development, another fraud pushed by the evolutionists of his day.
Another lie. I also think you may be mistaking Darwin for Haeckel here.
He even believed that acquired characteristics were inherited, total non-sense.
That would be Lamarckian evolution not darwinian evolution. But I am sure little things like accuracy don't matter to you.
If biology students read Origin of Species, the teacher would have to spend most of every lecture telling the students that what they read isn’t true.
If you bothered to read the Origin of Species maybe you wouldn't make so many childish mistakes about evolution. Seriously two minutes on wikipedia will correct most of the errors you have made this this post.
Ray Comfort said...
"He gave you the ability to love, to laugh, to sing, to think."
That's interesting, it's also becoming more understood that animals (besides humans) do those exact same things. Now they may not do them to the extent that we do, but they do them. Can you explain that Ray?
Ryk, are we suppose to take a muslim ( posing as a atheist ) seriously ?
Your assertion that Ryk is a Muslim is not credible, as you are known to be a serial liar.
AMY2 said
"Ryk,
Jesus said, "Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not do what I say?"
Obedience shows we trust Him and have faith in Him. You guys are always going on about Christians who say they're Christians but their behavior doesn't reflect it. Jesus is saying the same thing."
Ah yes but is he saying that he expects those who call him lord will obey? If so that is reasonable enough. His likely disappointed in all of you but he is making a reasonable assumption.
However it is an entirely different thing to claim that he meant that obedience is necessary for salvation. If salvation is a free gift to those who believe then obedience is not required. On the other hand if obedience is required then salvation is not a free gift and is dependent on works.
This is fine, since it is all made up anyway you can say what you like. Many Christians however don't accept salvation through works as you seem to. In fact if salvation is through works as you say, how is it distinct from other works based religions such as Islam.
The only Way of Salvation is Jesus Christ. He is much more than a prophet, He is the Son of GOD.
Given that you are known to be a serial liar, for what reason should your claim above be considered credible?
Which means He is the only path to Salvation, He only speaks the Truth, and eternal life is given to those who obey the Word of GOD.
For what reason should your claim be believed, given that you are a serial liar?
Outlaw girl says:
And Zacharias said to the angel, "How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years."
Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"
I honestly do not see the difference.
Zacharias had the example of Abraham and Sarah in the Pentateuch. He should have believed that it was possible for God if he had believed the scriptures.
Mary had no example from which to draw in the Old Testament.
To the fake who posts at "the holy bible."
You are prescribing woe for yourself. The biblical deity may not be the nadir of ethics. But he is quite close. (Note: I am not implying his existence any more than a similar statement about Prof. Moriarty would imply the existence of that character.)
CharlieDarwin said:
Darwin told us to look for millions of transitional fossils for our proof - yet we can't find them. he told us to look to all the vestigial organs - we find none.
Darwin in fact argued that because fossilization is rare and sporadic, that there would not in fact be a complete succession of transitional fossils. On the other hand, it seems very odd for creationists to argue that there are no transitional fossils when they cannot decide for themselves whether, e.g. the Dmanisi skulls are fully human or just another ape variety, or when they are reduced to arguing that God could create, e.g. feathered dinosaurs that look exactly like reptile-bird transitionals, or whales with small heads and hind limbs that look exactly like transitionals between terrestrial hoofed mammals and whales.
Vestigial organs were pointed out, and puzzled over, before Darwin offered an evolutionary explanation for them: the reduced wings of ratites and flightless beetles (in the latter case, often sealed under wing covers that could not be opened), the human plantaris tendon, the rudimentary molars of some vampire bats, the tooth buds and hind limb buds of baleen whale embryos, etc. Note that Darwin, and his successors, specifically did not insist that vestigial structures must be useless: he noted that they had lost their most obvious or important function but might retain other functions.
He thought embryos trace evolutionary development, another fraud pushed by the evolutionists of his day.
More precisely, embryonic development of living species is a modified form of embryonic development of their ancestors, and often shows the early stages of the development of ancestral structures (e.g. those vestigial hind limb buds and teeth in baleen whales).
He even believed that acquired characteristics were inherited, total non-sense.
True, though evolutionary theory does not depend on this principle and arguably works better without it. Again, I remind you that evolutionary theory is neither limited to Darwin's original ideas, nor depends on his personal authority: Darwin's belief in now-discredited views of how heredity works do not threaten evolutionary theory in the same way that Genesis 30's dependence on the inheritance of acquired characteristics (acquired by looking at patterned sticks!) threatens creationism.
If biology students read Origin of Species, the teacher would have to spend most of every lecture telling the students that what they read isn’t true.
This is, like most of what you say, false, but yes, there is a reason that biology classes use more up-to-date texts, with evidence for evolution discovered since 1859.
Ryk,
I'm sure I disappoint Him daily! Obedience isn't required for salvation. We need salvation to even WANT to be obedient. That's why grace (getting something we don't deserve) is considered so awesome.
Let me say also though, that if someone puts their faith in Christ, and then continually and flagrantly continues to sin with no turning back to God, God WILL discipline Him with illness, or poor finances, or whatever it takes to get that Christians attention. Sometimes God even just figures He's not going to let them do any more damage and just takes them home. (the sin unto death it's called).
So don't think that people who say they are Christians and don't have a changed life are getting off scot-free. They are either not saved, are God is shortly going to discipline them.
Dimensio,
"The only Way of Salvation is Jesus Christ. He is much more than a prophet, He is the Son of GOD." Paraphrasing the Bible is not lying.
Eiskrystal:
"And frankly i find bird chatter incredibly annoying. It is not "singing" by any stretch of the imagination."
You, sir, could never have never heard the blackbird's evensong.
These songs are some of the most beautiful you will ever hear.
The robin is also a very beautiful tunesmith. British songbirds are a bit special I suppose, I used to live in South Florida and heard mostly coarse sounding birds which made my ears pine for the British garden birds.
"Amy said: God WILL discipline Him with illness, or poor finances, or whatever it takes to get that Christians attention. "
This isn't necessarily true. God will allow us the repercussions of our sins if we continue on in them so negative things happening in our lives are not always indicators of Gods discipline. He has also spared me from repercussions from my own foolishness. Its unmerited, undeserved, unearned favor. Just like salvation.
Paraphrasing the Bible is not lying.
I have never suggested such. Your statement appears to be a non-sequitur; it has no relevance to any comment or inquiry that I have posited.
Rabbitpirate writes:
"Do you really think that if any of us have questions about evolution we would ask Ray? Ray knows nothing about evolution, and what he thinks he knows is wrong. If I have questions about evolution Ray is the very last person I would ask."
I would go further to say that Ray truly understands little of what he preaches, and much of what he thinks he knows is merely his personal interpretation. If I have questions about God, sin, Heaven or Hell, a Clown for Christ is the very last person I would ask.
wv = fulnes
Amy2 go and read up on psychosomatic illnesses.
ITs All About Jesus!!! said...
"Ray,
'Back to Doctor Luke' is another Great Post! John the Baptist was always one of my favorite characters in the New Testament.
He was never affraid to "Take a Stand" for Jesus Christ and proclaim Him as the Lamb of GOD.
Always ready to proclaim GOD's Word to King Herod and his heathen scoundrels.
I was reading Genesis the other day and I came across:
Chapter 1, verse 26.
It brought back memories of a missionary teaching me about GOD the Father and the Son Jesus Christ, with the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Trinity.
"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"
As you know, this proves that Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Moses wrote these wondeful books in the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible)."
Surely YOU should mean 'historical figure' rather than 'character', or you doubt the historicity of the Bible, in which case I don't blame you.
Also, how does Genesis 1:26 prove the Trinity? It doesn't even hint at who God was talking to. He might have been talking to Satan, he might have been talking to himself. And this is HUGE point that should've been clarified in the Bible and just the fact that it's open to interpretation should have alarm bells ringing.
AMY2
You misrepresent me, I said nothing about what a theoretical God would say regarding hypocritical followers I referred to what the writings attributed to its revelations, indicate regarding atheism.
Yes I imagine if there were such a being it would find hypocrisy offensive. My point to Mr. Comfort was that his interpretation of Luke indicates a works based doctrine as opposed to the faith based message he claims to endorse.
I also would like an answer to the question of whether belief is the only requirement for salvation as Christ claims or does Ray have some other interpretation of scripture.
Jerome Anthony said to Alphgeek
"Alphgeek... Squeaky clean children you have there.
Wow...so you've never had to discipline your children? They always did the right thing? Maybe they're a new breed, evolved somehow..."
No just atheist children who have been properly raised. I also have no issues with lying, stealing and other behaviors with my children. Why would I? Children wish to please their parents and are predisposed to trusting us. Parents actually teach our children to rebel and distrust us, through OUR errors and misdeeds.
Properly teaching them behaviors and responsibility precludes the need for punishment. Obviously it is necessary to educate and correct children so I could in that sense be "disciplining" them. However I would not for example burn them in a lake of fire for all eternity. Or even cause them pain.
Using an analogy to equate what your deity does with parenting is absurd. According to your myths your Gods parenting involves creating a pair of children and then as soon as they disobey him the first time, turning them over to be abused and tortured by a sadistic pedophile. He then sends them a few messages telling them what he wants them to do, during which time they are still being tortured by the monster he turned them over to. Then at some arbitrary time he kills them and if they did not believe the cryptic notes he sent and failed to do what he said and love him, he then tortures them in a lake of fire....Forever.
Is that the model you use for raising your kids? Could explain why Alphgeek and I are getting better results.
OutlawGirl,
You said:
"And Zacharias said to the angel, 'How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.'
"Then Mary said to the angel, 'How can this be, since I do not know a man?'
"I honestly do not see the difference."
That's a very good question. The differences are twofold: First, Zacharius was a priest of God who should have had the faith to accept God's word. Mary, on the other hand, was a teenager. God expected more of Zacharius.
Second, Zacharius asked for a sign. He said, "How will I know this for certain?" (Luke 1:18) Even though the angel Gabriel stood before him, he demanded proof. Mary, on the other hand, asked an honest question.
God sees our hearts and knows why we question things. Sometimes it's a sign of intellectual honesty; other times we use our intellect to block the truth. I've known atheists who are far more honest than many Christians, and what they've rejected is a perversion of Christianity. Others demand proof--otherwise they refuse to believe. And even if they had proof, they would still not believe. Look at Zacharius, who stood face to face with an actual angel. Wouldn't you expect that to be enough proof for anyone?
God knows the difference, and if we're honest, we do too.
Obeying the gospel
If "Jesus paid it all," and there are no works that we can do that are able to contribute toward paying the debt we have incurred because of our sins, what is this "obeying the gospel" all about?
The gospel is all that God has done to redeem His people, all centering on what happend at the cross. The apostle says it like this:
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Cor 15:1-4) NKJV
So the gospel itself is something that happens completely outside of us. But connected with the gospel is the "promise of the gospel" (whosoever believes in Christ crucified shall not perish, but have eternal life),(John 3:16; John 3:36) and the "call of the gospel", which is the command to repent and believe.(Mark 1:15)
Repentance is heartfelt sorrow for sins, causing us to turn from it always, more and more,(Psalms 51:3-4, 17), and to desire to live according to the will of God and do "good works." (See Heidelberg Catechism, q 88-90)
Faith and repentance are normally granted through the means of the preaching of the law and gospel. So, although we cannot produce faith and repentance on our own, we are able to avail ourselves of these "means of grace" by listening to the preaching of the word, and hearing the call to repent and believe.
Craig B
Jerome Anthony said:
"Alphgeek... Squeaky clean children you have there.
Wow...so you've never had to discipline your children? They always did the right thing? Maybe they're a new breed, evolved somehow..."
I never claimed that I did not have to discipline my children or that they always do the right things.
I was refuting Ray's claim that disobedience comes naturally to children. This has not been my observation.
My children rarely need discipline. Explaining the consequences of their actions is usually sufficient. At worst, some "time out" to think things through in a quiet environment is sufficient.
Sometimes when they are particularly tired or hungry they will misbehave. But this is not their natural state.
Maybe I'm just lucky, who knows?
Regarding your comment on evolution, if we did a genetic assay of myself, my wife and our children we would inevitably find some mutations of genetic material between generations. This has been observed many times (although not explicitly within my family).
So yes, you are correct. My children are taking part in evolution.
And no, they don't have extra heads or tentacles. Most mutations occurring between generations are almost insignificant.
It takes many years for a cumulative effect, based on natural selection, to be observed. Humans would form a poor subject for these studies.
Lake Malawi cichlids, where evolution is observed on the time scale of years and decades would be better suited for study.
Anette Acker - my interpretation of what Outlaw Girl is suggesting is that maybe Zacharias' son was also the son of God given that he and his wife were past child bearing years, and were, quite likely, not involved in the act of procreation. Ergo, it must have been God doing the impregnating. Because it wasn't Zacharias.
Anette Acker replied to OutlawGirl:
Others demand proof--otherwise they refuse to believe. And even if they had proof, they would still not believe. Look at Zacharius, who stood face to face with an actual angel. Wouldn't you expect that to be enough proof for anyone?
I don't know; I've never been face to face with an actual angel. Or, if I have been, I didn't notice it and haven't figured it out subsequently. So I really have no idea how compelling an angel appearing before me would be. Evidently, if the gospels can be trusted, not everyone who sees an angel realizes what they are or how they got there. Of course, if the Bible can be trusted, Satan can masquerade as an angel of light ....
For that matter, suppose I were shocked and awed into submission by an apparition in blinding white raiment, and believed everything he told me. Does my subjective impression of this being, my finite, fallible mind's spur-of-the-moment subjective conclusion that anyone who can have this effect on me must be speaking for God, prove that the being really does speak for God? Or should I be skeptical and ask for objective evidence, even if my voice shakes?
@Truthseeker
You said:
"parents do teach their children to love even from birth. everything we do out of love for our children is teaching them to be loving."
No, you do not have to teach your child to love. Being "loving" is merely an outward act designed to make others feel good or demonstrate an emotion. You can not teach your child to have an emotion. Love is an emotional state, and therefore, impossible to teach. Or did you teach your children how to be sad, happy, and angry?
The research you allude to (without any way for the reader to verify your claim) seems to have nothing to do with teaching children to love. Rather, it would seem to be about children who are not shown love. There is a difference. However, I agree, it is sad. I see it everyday, and it breaks my heart.
You also said:
"God is the author of love:)"
Do you have evidence to support that claim?
You also said:
"the bible absolutely does not teach that we were doomed before we even took a breath as you said."
According to the traditional fundamentalist/evangelical theology, yes, it does.
"There is none that doeth good, no, not one." Psalm 14:30
"For all have sined and fallen short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23
I could give a dozen more from memory in two languages, but you get the point.
The idea behind the plan of salvation is that humans are born dirty, evil, rotten sinners. We are unable to do anything to please God, so we must be born again in the spirit through Christ.
In short and point of fact, the Bible does clearly teach that humans were doomed before we were born.
Like many believers, you make a huge mistake assuming that atheist have never read the Bible. In addition, I have a Master's in English Literature. I know what a metonymy means. Since many of the believers who read this blog are Bible literalist, I doubt that metonymy is really relevant because it is a specialized type of metaphor. Rather than comparing two different items based on their similarities (love is a red rose), metonymy uses a part to symbolize the whole -- the pen (writing) is mightier than the sword (war).
I was raised a Baptist. I attended the school my church ran. I have knocked on 1000's of doors during after school witnessing. I know what I am talking about, and I understand why I have rejected it.
Now, if you would like to offer evidence for God, hell, the Bible, or a soul, we can talk.
CharlieDarwin wrote: It is very telling that so many Darwinian atheists come to this blog to demand answers and evidence regarding a religion. Religion is not a science, it is based on faith.
Indeed, religion is based on faith. The issue here is that creationism and intelligent design are not based on faith but on evidence. Creation science is religion mascarading as science, a mere trick-or-treater. Even if I was Christian there would be no reason for me to accept creationism because creationism, rather than being based on faith, wants to be based on logic, observation and science.
But none of them ever seem to have a question about evolution, something that does claim to be a science and something they pretty much believe is settled. Yet, they have no questions.
If I had a question about evolution I would NOT ask it here, unless I was addressing the famous Steven J.
Darwin told us to look for millions of transitional fossils for our proof - yet we can't find them. he told us to look to all the vestigial organs - we find none.
See my blog post on the reccurent laryngial nerve.
He thought embryos trace evolutionary development, another fraud pushed by the evolutionists of his day.
Er, they do. Dolphin embryos have legs, human embryos have a notocord, gills, a tail, ect. They're not exact models of descent but they do retain examples from our evolutionary history.
He even believed that acquired characteristics were inherited, total non-sense.
Can you elaborate further on this point? I'm not sure what you mean.
If biology students read Origin of Species, the teacher would have to spend most of every lecture telling the students that what they read isn’t true.
Have you read it?
Ahh, Obedience Part four:
The second part of God’s plan I cruised by enroute here. God has been and is dealing with the angelic rebellion led by satan. Angels are sentient, personal and have free will. It is a limited free will just as man’s free will is limited. But angels of whom satan is one were free enough to sin and to rebel. Freedom is not the precious thing Americans think it to be. Freedom without the knowledge of God and His Word will always give sinners enough rope to hang themselves, and they often do it. So now that satan and his army of deceived angels have been ushered out of God’s highest heaven, the angels remaining are also to be grown in their faith. This comes, I think, in the process of their service to those who believe God, for His angels are our servants. This subject (and all the above is a holy subject) that I am really not overly qualified to speak on, if all, as I live in flesh and blood. Nonetheless I think the scriptures bear out much of what I have written in precise and holy words, to wit:
"...the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Ephesians 3:9-11
Those who refuse the key of faith will not receive the key of obedience. But obedience is the proof of faith’s true life. And faith, that is: TRUST, specifically trusting God, will bring reward. One reward in not THE reward is the power over sin, power to obey God in ever increasing measure until the day He takes or soul into an eternal spiritual body and family in Heaven, His Heaven, His Kingdom of Endless Benevolent Ecstasy and LIFE!
I'm sure that this last part re faith and obedience seems a bit circular, but it is God, who looks out for the man whose heart is saying "Yes God" with every beat. Having found Him He opens the eyes of that heart to His Name and His Book. That heart having been opened begins to shun sin and seek the Way, Word and Will of God that He may DO IT!
Obedience Part three:
Now when one believes in God, and understands the authority and power of Him by whom the universe is stretched out before us, one rightly is impressed, is fearful, feels a little like a krill discovering a blue whale. The impulses are either to run or as Moses did, to turn aside and find out why the burning bush was not being consumed. Moses discovered the Spirit, the God of His father’s Joseph, Jacob, and Abraham Who spoke to him, and Moses then began to know the purpose for which his Maker has MADE him. This is the ultimate purpose of God’s redemption of the believer, that they discover and fulfill the glorious purpose for their existence (glorious mean “heavyweight and Holy”). Exciting yes? For God did not make hell for man, he made it for angels who disobeyed and for satan (the adversary) who led them into their disobedience.
God is keenly interested in obedience and disobedience. As there are the laws of nature, by which the moon hangs obediently over our heads, and salmon swim obediently upstream, so there are the Laws of God which all angels and all men and women must obey or forever forfeit their right to a place in God’s Kingdom.
Alas, alack and alarm!!! What am I to do, I want to obey God but I’m suddenly in the brothel. I want to stay far away from evil, why am I watching Jerry Springer? God is not only deferential to those who prefer to forget Him, He is provisional for those who have been separated from Him by sin yet wish to be reunited with Him throughout all eternity. And let me say that eternity is very, very real. Time measured in hours continues on after my death and after yours. It is the quality of eternity’s endless hours that is in view.
Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end. (English Standard Version)
Obedience: Along with the gift of atoning propitiation by Yeshua, there comes a call: Be holy for I AM holy, be perfect for I AM perfect” saith the Lord. Now God know that we have been sinners. Yet by the consent of our faith, our trusting Him, we give God permission to be a part of the life He has given us to do as we will with. Now it is no longer do as I will, but do as God wills. Father knows best! But today fathers are hated, as they remind us that there really is a heavenly Father.
By the exercise of faith God begins to grant us His divine favor: citizenship in His Heavenly and earthly Kingdom (both now extant) and all the rights and privileges thereof.
We suddenly come aware that we are loved, we are cherished, we are prized, we are valuable to God, we are joined to his Spiritual family, and we are the apples of His eye. We are so close to God that we can see our reflection in His eye!
This is a priceless gift He has given us, and holy. We suddenly understand that by sin and by OUR sin we were alienated from Him and destined for hell, but by merely agreeing with God and consenting to His Words we see Jesus opening the Way of Life and Truth to us, IN ORDER THAT WE MAY JOYFULLY OBEY THAT WAY. If a man or woman refuses this inspiration and the persons of God, Father, Son and Spirit, God is simply JUST IN REFUSING THAT MAN EVERYTHING except the days of their worldly lives, a bleak soap opera existence to end in eternal punishment. God owns all He has made and it is so no matter boldly one insists otherwise. He owns you and He owns me and the grave gives sure proof of that.
Obedience Part two
God cannot have unwilling citizens in His eternal Kingdom; the first thing they would do is sin against Him. So God is in the process of redeeming those who believe in a creator and are led to Yeshua. They are teachable in spirit. God can teach "even until blue in the face" (an anthropomorphism to be sure) but we have to learn. If we won't learn (from creation’s abundant testimony) He can't take us further, further to the Law that is.
With the law God is in effect saying to us of all our attempts to live: "How's that workin' for ya?"?" The law shows us precisely what we are doing wrong. We cravenly desire what does not belong to us. We are steal those things from those who own them, including wives, homes and their reputations. How? Through adultery and our lies. When all other attempts to defraud our fellow men them fail us, we murder them!!!
We dishonor and reject the good advice of our parents and elders. We forget God on the one day he set apart for us to rest and to rest in Him!!!. We speak His name, even swearing by it, and then act against our swearing to live in guilt and futility apart from His blessing. In that futility, our desperation for something beyond our guilt and shame, we make our own Gods of wood, stone and metals. It is quite akin to the grape leaf aprons Adam and Eve fashioned to cover their nakedness. In doing this final thing we have seized the title “Maker” for our own from the real Maker of heaven and earth, or at least we are content with whatever level of deception in pride we have carved for our selfish souls.
God will gladly redeem us from the pit of eternal death in hell we deserve for our sins if we will only believe He can do it! And love Him for that.
(I have days when I love God just for making me, but were I to forget the magnificent undeserved gift of eternal life by the death, and the resurrection of the Savior I would have forgotten a love from God deserving of more that I will ever be able to give Him in an eternity of eternitys, which He has in fact given me in which to love Him.!!!)
The ultimate snub to God is to say in all deceived seriousness to Him “No thank you, I would rather do it myself.” God made us, allowed sin to occur, showed us what sin was with His law; spoke to us for another 2000 years, (even the creation spoke for Him from 400 BC to Jesus) by His many personal angelic visitations and prophets. This is why the “Old Testament is so very important. Though Jesus the Son of the Living God is concealed from us until “AD” He speaks to us over and over and over again in those “Old” Testament years. And He leaves us the Record of much of what He said!
Ahh yes, obedience... OBEDIENCE... it is almost the biggest elephant in the room of christian faith.
Part one:
God gave the Torah, the Law, the Ten Commandments and all of “Old" Testament for one reason: to show people just exactly the pickle they were and are in. They were sinners, and they were sinning, but until Moses came down from Sinai no one knew what they were doing. They were all as those Jesus spoke to from the cross, "for they know not what they do"; they had no clue. In the Wilderness of Sin what had begun as just general grumbling against God was becoming flagrant offense against Him. And they had no clue. They did not know that God was holy. It is important to see that sin, beginning with Adam had alienated us, distanced us, and separated us from God in the most extreme way possible: dying all since Adam die. The children of Israel in the wilderness and all the men of earth were alienated from God, but God’s plan was in motion.
Now if it were God's plan only to step in and save men from hell, Jesus could have done that in some other manner than waiting another 2000 years to come and live among us. But God is interested in doing more. In my humble opinion from some years of study and meditation, He was and is doing two things:
First, He is making and redeeming the human race. He does the making part at His own pleasure; he has not limits on Him in this. But in the redeeming part, He is limited to save only those who are willing to be saved. This is a limit He puts on Himself, for to exert His might to coerce repentance in us would further alienate us from Him. . 2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him.
Now perfect does not mean sinless. It means that a man believes God exists, and that he is a man with faith in God. Noah and Abraham are the first great examples of that kind of man which God seeks.
God knows those who will to ignore the evidence of Him, who express no interest in Him and are willing to suppress all the leanings of their heart toward Him even if He were to knock on their door and do a miracle in their sight. Remember that many who had seen Him do miracles, or had heard reports of them from worthy eyewitnesses, even the dignitaries of the Jesus own kin, were crying out "crucify" on that singularly important Passover.
God knows who will receive Him and He knows who will not. I don't know and you don't know, but He knows.
But He won't interfere with your decision, not today, not tomorrow, and not ever. If you simply prefer to ignore Him and die in your sins, He will not coerce you otherwise. Why is this just? Because as has been so often said, the evidence of CREATION is everywhere to persuade you to follow a path to his Door: Yeshua (Jesus the door of the sheep).
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. John 10:7-9
Anette Acker,
Thanks for your courteous response. I love to see Christians acting Christ-like.
What about doubting Thomas? When he asked for proof of the resurrection Jesus appeared before him and even allowed him to touch his wounds.
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)
KiwilinOz wrote: Anette Acker - my interpretation of what Outlaw Girl is suggesting is that maybe Zacharias' son was also the son of God given that he and his wife were past child bearing years, and were, quite likely, not involved in the act of procreation. Ergo, it must have been God doing the impregnating. Because it wasn't Zacharias.
Nope. Interesting thought though. The passage, at least to me, isn't clear on whether John was God's son or whether God gave Zacharias and Elizibeth the power to concieve.
CharlieDarwin assumed:
"But none of them ever seem to have a question about evolution, something that does claim to be a science and something they pretty much believe is settled. Yet, they have no questions."
Funny, you think I would ask Ray Comfort about evolution?
That would be like asking Martin Luther about Judaism, or Fred Phelps about the psychology of human sexual relations, or asking Kent Hovind about geology or paleontology, or asking me about the fine art of swedish cooking...(trust me on this one)...
CharlieDarwin assumed:
"But none of them ever seem to have a question about evolution, something that does claim to be a science and something they pretty much believe is settled. Yet, they have no questions."
I have had all sorts of questions about evolution. That is why I took college biology. It is also why I read books on the subject and occasionally keep up with what is being published in Journals. I also have a personal friend who is a biology Prof. at the local university I can ask and some online acquaintances who also either work in the field or have advanced degrees.
What I wouldn't do is ask someone with no understanding of the subject, a pathological need to misrepresent it, and less expertise than I have myself. That would be just silly.
MOLLYKNITS thanks for your response. i appreciate your expertise and the points that you made. in trying to condense my statement i kind of lost the context.
i agree there is a feeling, an emotional love between parents and children that can not be taught. this is not what i referred to in my last post when i said "around the age of 2 or 3 we start
telling them to be loving when they display undesirable behavior towards others". from a biblical perspective, there are different kinds of love.
in the greek there are at least four words that can be translated into our english word love. (i hope you'll appreciate this since you have a degree in literature.)
one type of love is "storge". this is what you spoke of. the family love, the love that God put inside a man’s heart for his children or a woman’s heart for her children or the children for their parents.
another type of love is "phileo". this love is between friends and does involve "feeling".
another type of love is "agape". i was coming from this angle. Agape love is expressed in giving. Agape love is revealed by actions not feelings. it involves choosing to love when you don't feel like it.
(the fourth is "eros" and does not apply here.)
God loved. Christ loved.
John 3:16 “For God so loved [agape] the world that he gave....
Eph 5:2....just as Christ loved [agape] us and gave himself up....
we are to love, even our enemies which is not easy nor is it based on loving feelings.
Matthew 5:44
But I tell you: Love [agape] your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
out of time. i'll get to your other points later. have a good afternoon.
stranger.steange.land wrote:
'If "Jesus paid it all," and there are no works that we can do that are able to contribute toward paying the debt we have incurred because of our sins, what is this "obeying the gospel" all about?'
Jesus live a sinless life. He obeyed God's law every second of everyday he was in the flesh. No man has ever done that, all have sinned, all have disobeyed. If you were to obey perfectly as Jesus did, you would have no need of His paying for you, for you would have no debt incurred by sin: "no pending legal action" so to speak.
Man was made by God to please Him (like people make things to pleaase them) and to do His will Man was to do what God said do. In the Garden of Eden Adam and Eve lived in perfect wholeness and health until the adversary stumbled them. Obeying God was effortless and a Joy. Man was made perfectly suited to do what God planned for him to0 do.
As we now live in mortal (dying) flesh and blood, we long to be restored to that perfection and to all the effortless joy of God's eternal Kingdom. We long for the finality of our being "clothed" in godlike sinless immortality. Obeying the Gospel which includes the Ten Commandments with 100% accuracy will not be possible until then, BUT it is the desire of our faith in God AND our response to the knowledge of His love, and in the assurance of His promises to come that we desire to please the One who first loved us: God, whom we now love and adore.
Obedience is a part of the love affair God began in Creation. Obedience is an opportunity to make the creator of the nearest flower and the furthest star happy with us. Capish?
to MOLLYKNITS
you asked if i have evidence to support my claim that God is the author of love. i'll say what i know, hoping you'll earnestly consider.
i can see the evidence of God's love all around me. i know He is present. i also see the evidence of satan's hate as well. the scriptures confirm God's love over and over. (1John 4:8-9,11,16; Psalm 34:8, 16:11; 1John 3:1 for starters.)
there is archaeological evidence that corroborates scripture, eyewitness accounts and there are historically verifiable prophecies. (the bible is more than one-third prophecy.) i don't have time to get into the mathematical probability of prophecy, with all the details being fulfilled, which by the way is exponential and yet they're documented over and over! it's quite staggering to the human mind. if you truly want some examples i'll take the time to be more specific.
asking for proof is nothing new. God's answer is "present your case" Isaiah 41:21-23, "there
is none like me" Isaiah 46:8-10.
God gave us prophecy so He could fulfill it and we would have proof, that we would know and
believe. (Isa 42:8-9 and 48:3-5.)
Isaiah 43:8-10 Lead out those who have eyes but are blind, who have ears but are deaf. All the nations gather together and the peoples assemble. Which of them foretold this and proclaimed to us the former things? Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right, so that others may hear and say, "It is true. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
out of time for now.
1John 3:1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God!
OutlawGirl,
"What about doubting Thomas? When he asked for proof of the resurrection Jesus appeared before him and even allowed him to touch his wounds.
"Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.' (John 20:29)"
Jesus was willing to make a concession in order to strengthen Thomas's faith, but Jesus also pointed out that Thomas's faith was weak. Knowing the truth about ourselves is always a precursor to faith. That is an important part of what is called "repentance." Therefore, both Zacharias and Thomas were rebuked and then led to true faith.
In general, the gospels tell us that "signs" and "proof" have little power to produce faith. Many people (like Zacharias) saw miracles and still didn't believe. If I saw a ghost, I would probably conclude that I was hallucinating, so seeing isn't necessarily believing.
True faith is not synonymous with intellectual acquiescence--instead it is a miracle in our souls that comes from surrender to Christ. It is the presence of God in our lives, which is why a changed life is the only proof of faith.
Sorry Outlaw Girl, I used your name in vain to poke a stick at the fairy tale believers amongst us.
@Truthseeker
Your explanations of Greek words for "love" is somewhat inaccurate, but translation in general, and ancient translations in particular present a problem in understanding any text not written in English. Even with text written in modern English, there will be variations of interpretation. The fact that there are debates over what the Bible means is because of the problems associated with translation and interpretation of text.
You are basically correct about "philia" and "storge," but I think you may view "eros" with a purely sexual connotation, which isn't always the case (and not relevant to our chat). "Agape" in particular has connotation that is decidedly Christian in modern usage (outside of Greece anyway), but your definition is not necessarily what the word "means," even among Christians. Most often, "agape" is understood as divine or selfless love.
While, I understand the Christian use of the word, but in general, "agape" is Greek for "love." In some ancient text, the word is even used to describe love of a good meal. It can also denote "beloved," "contentment," or even "high regard." Your particular usage, which you seem to connect with "giving," is new to me. The definitions to which you seem to refer come from CS Lewis. The book is called "The Four Loves." Lewis was a great scholar, but this work is purely Christian in its bias.
The point I made is still different than what you are talking about. Children do not need to be taught to love. In fact, human children learn to read and react to emotions at a very young age. The ability to know what someone is feeling seems to be innate.
Besides all that, my point was really much broader. Ray's post in question pointed out all the bad things parents never have to teach their children. He was illustrating another point I made, and you disagreed with, that humans are born sinners (to use the common Christian word). My point is that children do not have to be taught to do things that humans do; they can do all the bad things, and all the good things too. I felt that Ray was being particularly narrow and one sided with his observations.
Your evidence is really just a collection of personal observations based on emotional responses. Real evidence is something that can be seen, heard, tasted, touched, or smelled. You personal feelings and random Bible quotes are not evidence by any standard.
Don't get me wrong, I think that if it works for you, great. Your personal life is none of my business. What bothers me is when people use that personal belief (based on faith, which by definition requires no evidence) to dictate what is best for the rest of us who do not agree with the faith position.
I don't personally care if you accept ToE or not as a matter of faith, but the faith of a few believers is not a reason to distort the teachings of science. The reason I read this blog is because I find the views of young earth creationist like Ray dangerous. Turning our backs on solid science in favor of a belief system will lead this country into a dark ages.
I see no reason to use the belief of a minority of Christians (Christianity is not a minority, but young earth creationist are) to shape educational philosophy as a very bad idea. In addition, I believe that it is a violation of every principle upon which this country is built.
MOLLYKNITS said
"Your evidence is really just a collection of personal observations based on emotional responses. Real evidence is something that can be seen, heard, tasted, touched, or smelled. You personal feelings and random Bible quotes are not evidence by any standard."
is this part of your post referring to types of love or God is the author of love? i sent you two separate posts.
@Dave aka lambsev
Thanks, Dave. That was a pretty good concise summary of what I said.: )
Craig B
Dear Truthseeker, Mollyknits and all:
If you are interested in a very detailed exposition of Agape, read Agape Road by Bob Mumford.
@Truthseeker
"i sent you two separate posts."
I answered in one post.
to MOLLYKNITS
i've considered all that you've posted. it would be proper for you to hold yourself to the same standard that you've held me to. you criticize with words and phrases like "you assume, bias, personal observations, beliefs, evidence, etc." and all the while you express yourself in the same way. in addition, you say the bible is "not evidence by any standard" then you quote it out of context trying to make your point. i truly don't hold it against you but it is hypocritical.
we're both posting for the same reasons: we don't want false representation of what we hold to be true. for me, mocking God, Jesus Christ and the bible are unacceptable. there is just not enough time to refute all of the misrepresentations.
i do agree with your definition of evidence. unfortunately, you as well as evolutionists in general, don't hold to it. fragments of bone are not legitimate "senses" observations. you have no "real evidence" by your own definition. on the other hand, eyewitness accounts are superior evidence. the bible is full of them.
here's an emotional response for you: i would bet that if the bible was just another compilation of ancient documents without spiritual inference, the world would hail it as a trustworthy historical record.
also, you said "I believe that it is a violation of every principle upon which this country is built" referring to YEC's (which i have not committed to) shaping educational philosophy. i'm not sure what principles you're talking about, but here's just a couple ofquotes, eyewitness accounts, from the voluminous references that document our nation's true heritage:
john adams: "the general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were...the general principles of christianity...i will avow that i then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." (signer of the declaration of independence, the bill of rights and our second president)
george washington: "of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. in vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars." (general of the revolutionary army, president of the constitutional convention, first president of the u.s.a.)
according to george w., no one could be called an american patriot who attempted to separate politics from its two foundations of religion and morality. he was a protestant episcopalian.
another emotional response: if america was not a long standing christian nation, then why is there even a fight to remove all references, that have been in place, to God and biblical principles from the governing affairs of this great nation? why have other countries past and present viewed us as a christain nation?
the denial of God and His influence on the affairs of men is nothing new, it just continues to be delusional and grievous.
Ecclesiastes 6:10-12 Whatever has come to be has already been named, and it is known what man is, and that he is not able to dispute with one stronger than he. The more words, the more vanity, and what is the advantage to man? For who knows what is good for man while he lives the few days of his vain life, which he passes like a shadow? For who can tell man what will be after him under the sun?
Dear Mollyknits and truthseeker:
truthseeker said:
"here's an emotional response for you: i would bet that if the bible was just another compilation of ancient documents without spiritual inference, the world would hail it as a trustworthy historical record."
and if that were the case it would never be the best seller it continues to be year after year. It would wind up online at a few sites and the print copies would eventually crumble to dust in the stacks.
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